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Indefinite Tampa Bay Bucs thread: Somehow not on the list of teams to never have won a Super Bowl (3 Viewers)

I guess that was the plan all along. Once teams started requesting interviews for him the Glaziers didn't want to let him go.

 
I would expect an announcement today if Florio's rumor is legit. I wonder if Koetter has his DC?

 
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I'm all for allowing the process but why the delay on Dirk Koetter?

Feels like they are stinging it along hoping something better comes their way. I honestly think if Kelly were passed over for SF that they might want to talk to him. I'm not anti-Kelly the coach and think he could do some damage with Winston, just my opinion and I respect any of you who feel otherwise but I like the paring of them.

 
He is the guy. He was the guy the entire time. Glaziers fired Lovie to keep him. No other candidates were seriously considered, that's why no other serious candidates interviewed.

If Jameis is happy, then I am happy.

 
I would rather have a fiery guy like Schwartz. I remember Mike Smith seemed like a really nice guy on HBO, but I don't think he has the killer instinct we need. I thought that demeanor was part of the reason Lovie got fired. We need a coach willing to put cash bounties on players heads! Jk

I don't recall Atlanta ever having a good defense when he was there anyways.

 
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Capella said:
Probably gonna be mike smith.
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This would kill any momentum gathered from firing Lovie.

Watching that guy walk around like a meek retired grandpa in socks and sandals on Hard Knocks gives me absolutely zero confidence he can accomplish anything of substance running an NFL defense.

 
Capella said:
Probably gonna be mike smith.
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He was good in Jacksonville as the DC, he has tons of HC experience to go with it now, could help Dirk navigate some of the 1st time jitters as HC. I think Mike SMith would be a good hire to bring into the organization. Plus when they fire Dirk they are going to need a good interim guy :D

J/K, but I do think Smith is alright to have as DC.

 
I really don't know enough about these DCs to have an opinion. I just want a guy who doesn't run such a basic defense and can throw some different looks at opponents.

 
Score some points on offense. Be aggressive on defense.

If you give up some big plays and points, so be it. The only way to stop anyone in this NFL is to put them behind the down and distance with sacks or by drawing penalties and then causing some turnovers with that pressure.

The "Lovie letting teams complete 70% down the field and hoping the offense screws up" strategy is dead.

 
Capella said:
I really don't know enough about these DCs to have an opinion. I just want a guy who doesn't run such a basic defense and can throw some different looks at opponents.
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The defense wasn't the problem the players executing it were. The secondary and defensive ends on this team were terrible. Seriously, there may not be a player in our backfield, or DE that could start on another team in the league. Those turds couldn't execute any defense effectively.

 
Quez said:
Capella said:
I really don't know enough about these DCs to have an opinion. I just want a guy who doesn't run such a basic defense and can throw some different looks at opponents.
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The defense wasn't the problem the players executing it were. The secondary and defensive ends on this team were terrible. Seriously, there may not be a player in our backfield, or DE that could start on another team in the league. Those turds couldn't execute any defense effectively.
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I saw them have plenty of success when they would come out of their cover 2 shell, mix coverages, and blitz once in a while. If you can't rush the passer with just your front 4 you shouldn't try to. Lovie was too stubborn to alter his scheme to cater to his supposed lack of talent. We'll see if the new defensive staff can figure out how to utilize a former pro bowler in Verner and a former second round pick in Banks. Both have shown an ability to play in the league.

 
We ran man half the time. Those guys sucked in man, but I am as stumped as you as to why they fell off. Michael Johnson was a probowler before he got here too. Some of these guys get fat checks, then don't play up to their contracts.

Verner is especially puzzling because they hand picked him. And I thought they said he was a great fit for Lovies system?

 
Heard from Stephen White today that the Bucs have not finalized Koetter is that there's some "big fish" they're still going after.

I was trying to think who... Shannahan? Who's a big fish, right now? McDaniels?

 
Grahamburn said:
Capella said:
Probably gonna be mike smith.
Click to expand...
This would kill any momentum gathered from firing Lovie.

Watching that guy walk around like a meek retired grandpa in socks and sandals on Hard Knocks gives me absolutely zero confidence he can accomplish anything of substance running an NFL defense.
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He looks like Steve Martin. I always expected him to do balloon tricks on the sideline.

 
So Cullen & Hardy are gone. They are talking pretty high of the DL coach Hayes from Cincy. Not sure about the other few named. I have seen "Jags" attached to quite a few names. :unsure:

 
Mike Smith's Jacksonville defenses were pretty good.

But, so were Lovie's Chicago defenses.

A lot has changed in 10 years.

 
One of my issues with the Glazers heavy turnover of coaches is that all future decisions might be made with a "win now" attitude. Sure we want to be competitive every season, but there are often difficult cap decisions that must be made so the organization doesn't get stuck in a 5year hole. If I am Dirk & Licht I want everyone at any price. You might get the team into cap trouble eventually, but you must win now.

Which brings me to the question of, what we pay Doug Martin? He was a top RB last season, and is in his prime. It wouldn't be out of the question for his agent to want 10 mil + per season.

 
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Quez said:
Which brings me to the question of, what we pay Doug Martin? He was a top RB last season, and is in his prime. It wouldn't be out of the question for his agent to want 10 mil + per season.
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For a RB? Nope, he can walk. Especially considering in another year or 2 the run game is going to take a back seat to Winston. I think where Tampa is going, Sims makes more sense catching out of the backfield anyway. And Sims has proven to be a fairly adequate runner as well, which is all you're looking for.

 
Doug isn't getting 10 a year. Come on. Murray got 8 from Philly just last year. Doug will be in the 7.5 range.

 
I never said he would get it, but I am sure the agent will be asking for the farm. I don't want to pay him anywhere near what Demarco Murray or Lesean McCoy are making either. I'm thinking 5 mil per max. If he wants more than that, maybe franchise him. It would be worth paying the extra 3 mil to not be locked into such a vulnerable position. I like Doug, but I think in today's NFL your better off cap wise drafting a RB in rounds 2-4 every year or 2. There are good RBs available in those rounds every year.

http://overthecap.com/player/demarco-murray/621/

 
The Bucs don't have anyone else worth franchising coming up in the next couple seasons. They might as well use it on Doug. Either that or you give him a 4-5 year front loaded deal that the organization can get out of after 3 seasons with no cap hit. Charles Sims is not the answer as the sole interior runner. Those two were probably the best backfield combination in the league though. I wouldn't mess with that if possible.

They're in an enviable cap position right now. They can afford to keep Doug and still add additional pieces to the defense.

Licht and the Glazers need to spend to the cap this off-season to take advantage of Jameis' window as a cheap player.

 
Grahamburn said:
The Bucs don't have anyone else worth franchising coming up in the next couple seasons. They might as well use it on Doug. Either that or you give him a 4-5 year front loaded deal that the organization can get out of after 3 seasons with no cap hit. Charles Sims is not the answer as the sole interior runner. Those two were probably the best backfield combination in the league though. I wouldn't mess with that if possible.

They're in an enviable cap position right now. They can afford to keep Doug and still add additional pieces to the defense.

Licht and the Glazers need to spend to the cap this off-season to take advantage of Jameis' window as a cheap player.
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Won't the franchise tag for RBs be almost $12M next year? Is 1 year for $12M realistic for Martin, even if they don't have anyone else worth franchising?

 
$10.9M in 2015. Should be similar this year. They could use it on Doug two years in a row. I'd rather they pay more up front in their current cap situation than have dead cap dollars 3-5 years from now when they need to re-sign Winston, Evans, Smith, Marpet, Kwon, etc.

It ultimately depends on the years and guaranteed dollars Doug wants though. He'll likely be shooting for 4-5 years and $8M+ per.

 
Grahamburn said:
$10.9M in 2015. Should be similar this year. They could use it on Doug two years in a row. I'd rather they pay more up front in their current cap situation than have dead cap dollars 3-5 years from now when they need to re-sign Winston, Evans, Smith, Marpet, Kwon, etc.

It ultimately depends on the years and guaranteed dollars Doug wants though. He'll likely be shooting for 4-5 years and $8M+ per.
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This says $11.8M (projected) in 2016. If they franchise him twice, you're talking about $14.1M the 2nd year; so almost $26M guaranteed over 2years. Why not sign him to a deal with $20M guaranteed, that gives them some flexibility on the back end? Otherwise, they're seriously overpaying the next year (or two).

 
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Doug Martin is likely to get something in the 4 yr $25M range. That will be the top end of the RB market. I would not allow the Murray deal to set the market. Before the Murray deal the market was trending down on RBs.

So Koetter has not officially been announced as the HC? I thought that was announced on media outlets, never saw the press conference but I also did not see press conferences for a lot of the coaches, most are the same and pretty uninformative.

 
Grahamburn said:
Licht and the Glazers need to spend to the cap this off-season to take advantage of Jameis' window as a cheap player.
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I think we will see them be very active in FA again. When they realized Josh Freeman was entering his prime they went all in. Unfortunately, that turned out to be a disaster, but at least they took a swing.I'm thinking they make a run at Muhamed Wilkerson, Greg Hardy, or Mario Williams. Address the DB problem more in the draft. It doesn't seem to be a good fa year for DBs.

I'm not sure if we can draw any FA defense clues from what the Falcons did when Smith was HC there. I think Demeitrof may have been pulling the strings more. They had some bad FA moves at safety with Duanta Robinson & Asante Samuel. They also went after vet DEs.

 
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Bayhawks said:
Grahamburn said:
$10.9M in 2015. Should be similar this year. They could use it on Doug two years in a row. I'd rather they pay more up front in their current cap situation than have dead cap dollars 3-5 years from now when they need to re-sign Winston, Evans, Smith, Marpet, Kwon, etc.

It ultimately depends on the years and guaranteed dollars Doug wants though. He'll likely be shooting for 4-5 years and $8M+ per.
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This says $11.8M (projected) in 2016. If they franchise him twice, you're talking about $14.1M the 2nd year; so almost $26M guaranteed over 2years. Why not sign him to a deal with $20M guaranteed, that gives them some flexibility on the back end? Otherwise, they're seriously overpaying the next year (or two).
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Part of the dilemma with Doug is wondering if this was just the dreaded "contract year" performance. He was fantastic this year, but he didn't get or keep his body in this kind of shape until he knew he had to. Does that change with a long term guaranteed contract? Do the nagging injuries that plagued him in 13 and 14 return?

The franchise tag is a hedge for the organization against poor performance and/or injury. It might be in their best interest to make Doug prove it again. You can also use it as leverage to get a long term deal done without Martin and his agent being able to negotiate with other teams thus suppressing the years/dollars necessary to sign him.

 
Grahamburn said:
Bayhawks said:
Grahamburn said:
$10.9M in 2015. Should be similar this year. They could use it on Doug two years in a row. I'd rather they pay more up front in their current cap situation than have dead cap dollars 3-5 years from now when they need to re-sign Winston, Evans, Smith, Marpet, Kwon, etc.

It ultimately depends on the years and guaranteed dollars Doug wants though. He'll likely be shooting for 4-5 years and $8M+ per.
Click to expand...
This says $11.8M (projected) in 2016. If they franchise him twice, you're talking about $14.1M the 2nd year; so almost $26M guaranteed over 2years. Why not sign him to a deal with $20M guaranteed, that gives them some flexibility on the back end? Otherwise, they're seriously overpaying the next year (or two).
Click to expand...
Part of the dilemma with Doug is wondering if this was just the dreaded "contract year" performance. He was fantastic this year, but he didn't get or keep his body in this kind of shape until he knew he had to. Does that change with a long term guaranteed contract? Do the nagging injuries that plagued him in 13 and 14 return?

The franchise tag is a hedge for the organization against poor performance and/or injury. It might be in their best interest to make Doug prove it again. You can also use it as leverage to get a long term deal done without Martin and his agent being able to negotiate with other teams thus suppressing the years/dollars necessary to sign him.
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Makes sense. Unlike other positions, I think RBs might not be as opposed to the franchise tag; $11.8M is probably about the guaranteed money Martin "should" get in a new, longer-term deal, so if he gets franchised, he gets the guarantee money & a shot at another contract (or another guaranteed $14M in 2017). Either way, RBs don't lose out like QBs, WRs, CBs, etc who get franchised.

 
Licht is a New England guy. They never pay RBs there. However, Since the Glaziers have set a precedent that you must win now, then why would he worry about the cap position in 3-4 years?

Also, look at the remaining playoff teams. None of them have a high priced RB besides Carolina, and Stewart hasn't necessarily been a huge success.

I also like the idea of using the tag as leverage.

I wonder if there is any chance of Adrian Peterson restructuring. He kills the Tag curve.

 
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Quez said:
Licht is a New England guy. They never pay RBs there. However, Since the Glaziers have set a precedent that you must win now, then why would he worry about the cap position in 3-4 years?

Also, look at the remaining playoff teams. None of them have a high priced RB besides Carolina, and Stewart hasn't necessarily been a huge success.

I also like the idea of using the tag as leverage.

I wonder if there is any chance of Adrian Peterson restructuring. He kills the Tag curve.
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I'm not sure Peterson restructuring would have an impact. Isn't the tag amount determined by the previous year's average salaries at the position (or some other formula-but the #s from teh previous year)?

 
  • An "exclusive" franchise player must be offered a one-year contract for an amount no less than the average of the top five salaries at the player's position as of a date in April of the current year in which the tag will apply, or 120 percent of the player's previous year's salary, whichever is greater. Exclusive franchise players cannot negotiate with other teams. The player's team has all the negotiating rights to the exclusive player.
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The tag should be $9545000

Lynch-11.5

Peterson-11

Stewart-9.55

Foster-8.925 (he will get cut so excluded)

Murray-8

McCoy-7.675

There is a drop off after that to Jamaal Charles 5.3.

Last year Petersons cap number was 15.6, that would of made the tag over a million more.

The Vikings could cut him and have no dead money, but I haven't heard any rumblings of that. Get him out of the top 5 and the tag is only 8.4

 
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Quez said:
The tag should be $9545000

Lynch-11.5

Peterson-11

Stewart-9.55

Foster-8.925 (he will get cut so excluded)

Murray-8

McCoy-7.675

There is a drop off after that to Jamaal Charles 5.3.

Last year Petersons cap number was 15.6, that would of made the tag over a million more.

The Vikings could cut him and have no dead money, but I haven't heard any rumblings of that. Get him out of the top 5 and the tag is only 8.4
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That's not correct. Some things changed when the CBA was renegotiated. I don't pretend to know exactly how it works, but this link I supplied earlier explains it like this (I added the underlines):

The 2011 Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) changed how non-exclusive franchise tags are determined. Since its inception in 1993, a franchise tag number had been an average of the five largest salaries in the prior year at a player's position or 120 percent of the prior year's salary of the player, whichever was greater. For franchise tag purposes, salary means a player's salary cap number, excluding workout bonuses.

Those two provisions remain intact, but the formula component is now calculated over a five-year period that's tied to a percentage of the overall salary cap. More specifically, the number for each position is determined by taking the sum of the non-exclusive franchise tags as determined by the original methodology for the previous five seasons and dividing by the sum of the salary caps for the previous five seasons. The resulting percentage, which is known as the Cap Percentage Average in the CBA, is then multiplied by the actual salary cap for the upcoming league year.
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Basically, it's no longer just "add top-5 salaries & divide by 5." There's much more involved. That same report projects the RB tag in 2016 to be $11.871M. If a RB were to be tagged in 2016 AND 2017, the 2017 tag would have to be a 20% bump, so $14.25M. That would be $26.12M if Martin was tagged in 2016 AND 2017.

 
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Wow, some crazy numbers being tossed around for Martin in here. I'd be very leery of a guy who disappeared after his rookie year only to beast in a contract year. And just because you have cap space doesn't mean you should bid against yourself for the guy.

 
There is a reason they didn't take his 5th year option. They could of had him for an additional year at a bargain.

 
Raiderfan32904 said:
Wow, some crazy numbers being tossed around for Martin in here. I'd be very leery of a guy who disappeared after his rookie year only to beast in a contract year. And just because you have cap space doesn't mean you should bid against yourself for the guy.
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That's why you franchise him and negotiate exclusively.

 
Grahamburn said:
Raiderfan32904 said:
Wow, some crazy numbers being tossed around for Martin in here. I'd be very leery of a guy who disappeared after his rookie year only to beast in a contract year. And just because you have cap space doesn't mean you should bid against yourself for the guy.
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That's why you franchise him and negotiate exclusively.
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True, but is it a good idea to pay him almost $12M for 1 year if he doesn't sign a long-term deal? I take it that you believe it is a good (or at least, viable) option, but do you get the feeling that the Bucs might do that?

 
I think it's a good option and worth the risk that Doug decides to sign the tender and play under it. I wouldn't let him hit the open market. I don't see why the Bucs would either.

 
Grahamburn said:
I think it's a good option and worth the risk that Doug decides to sign the tender and play under it. I wouldn't let him hit the open market. I don't see why the Bucs would either.
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I can think of 4-5 million reasons why the Bucs wouldn't do this. 12mm is a massive overpay for a RB in a year with several viable free agents and a trend of lowering compensation levels.

 
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