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Death of football? (3 Viewers)

Shutout said:
If here are people still willing to be boxers for pay, there isn't going to be a drying up of the pipeline for football players anytime soon.

Negative incidents have littered the NFL for 5 straight years with one MAJOR incident after another and the league just keeps on keepin' on.

I was in agreement that football is going down the slipper slope but I am backing off that thought. It's not going anywhere on a mass scale. But, personally, I think I've hit the wall. The product is pitiful. The commercials and nonsense surrounding every play is intolerable. I'm just one guy but there will be one guy less, soon. Maybe it has a shelf life. After many years, it seems (for me) the product has finally been watered down enough to where I see that this is not the sport I grew up watching, was so passionate about, etc.

What the NFL is today is an attention seeking pinball machine begging us to plop our time and quarters (thousands and thousands of quarters) into.
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What you described above is more of a problem than the concussion "crisis." It's the game and product itself that the NFL has to be worried about. But, it's not going to go away because of how they managed concussions in the past or that players will get concussions in the future. Hopefully, one day, they hysteria around this issue will actually settle down so that actual data, science, reasonable precautions/safety measures can be considered. Until then, people are really just freaking out right now over an issue they don't understand and is almost certainly not even near what has been manufactured by the media. That will just take some time, and if the NFL hasn't been swallowed up by this now, it certainly won't as the public gets more sophisticated about the concussion issue.

 
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Unless you have played this game on at least the college level, I think it is very easy to never be able to understand just what this game does to you and how demanding it is.

When we play it as kids, our bodies are much different and rebound differently and the mental tasking and pressure is not anywhere near where it is when it is a pro profession.

When you look at the changes the game has made to accommodate its popularity and market and revenue and you see how much faster it is, how much less you actually train and prepare, realize that every player on a team will likely play at least two games in a 6 game span at least twice a year and have to bounce back from that, it's really amazing.

We think and treat these guys as plug and play commodities for our hobby amusement and the league uses them in the same way, by and large, as their revenue tools and somehow it just keeps working. I guess there are enough 23 and 24 year old guys out there to keep it rolling.

But at some point, these guys turn into 36 year old men who have the equivalent of 300 automobile accidents under their belts and it catches up.The body is a remarkable thing in how it takes care of itself and compensates but you can only go so far.

It is winter for most of us. Snow is falling for a lot of us. A lot of us are in that 32-52 age bracket. THe next time you pick up that shovel and shovel a good 6 inches or more of snow, think about how your extremities feel in that weather for that 30-40 minutes. Now think about how that would feel if you didn't have half your clothes on...and it was 4 times longer period of time...and you were falling on the ground you were shoveling every so often. Then the next day, when you have something in your back or leg or arm that just "doesn't feel quite right", think about how long it will take to work that out and how you would feel if you had to go shovel that snow again today.

 
cobalt_27 said:
identikit said:
cobalt_27 said:
Faust said:
Randle El wishes he hadn't played football, thinks it's gone in 25 years
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What happened to Randle El that he can't do a flight of stairs?
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Football.
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I'd hazard a guess that the vast majority of former players in their 30s can walk a flight of stairs just fine. So, it begs the question, what happened to Randle El? Seems awfully dramatic.
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I'd guess it's his knees based on this:

He says he has trouble walking down the stairs ("I have to come down sideways sometimes, depending on the day") ...
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heckmanm said:
cobalt_27 said:
identikit said:
cobalt_27 said:
Faust said:
Randle El wishes he hadn't played football, thinks it's gone in 25 years
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What happened to Randle El that he can't do a flight of stairs?
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Football.
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I'd hazard a guess that the vast majority of former players in their 30s can walk a flight of stairs just fine. So, it begs the question, what happened to Randle El? Seems awfully dramatic.
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I'd guess it's his knees based on this:
He says he has trouble walking down the stairs ("I have to come down sideways sometimes, depending on the day") ...
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Sounds awful. I don't recall all he said on the DP show today but he provided some context to all this. Has a lot going on, too, which is more likely to be impacting his transient memory issues than CTE, the latter of which obviously seemed to characterize the media's formulation.

 
Football is dangerous and crippling in the long term for many players. We've known that for years. We know more now and have better evidence for it now than we used to, but it's not a new phenomenon. So what's going to kill it?

Folks are still interested in playing, despite the risks because they ostensibly enjoy it and it comes with a very high financial upside that might not otherwise be possible. It's unlikely to become illegal, because people opt to do highly dangerous activities all the time - as the saying goes, "It a free country.". People still start smoking for example, which is likely a much bigger risk to your health overall. People do other even more "extreme" sports often just for fun, but also for the entertainment of others. You are more likely to die riding a horse than playing football. You are just as likely to have long term frailties resulting from gymnastics as your are from football. That doesn't even start to approach boxing or MMA. The GOAL in those sports is to beat someone unconscious, and MMA is getting more popular every year...

When you ask an athletic 18 year old male if he'd give up 10 years of his life for a 10 year career in the NFL with all this it brings, I suspect you are always going to get enough yeses to fill the rosters, and the risks don't really seem to be THAT clear cut. Ask when they are 40 and struggling to get down the stairs and you may get a different answer to "was it worth it", but that's not really what is going to happen.

Consumers are more interested in football now than they have ever been, and the trends are still going up. So that doesn't seem to be at risk.

There could certainly be more protection requirements implemented or other things of that nature, but that's true of a lot of sports and other activities. Whether you are a fan of government regulation or not, it happens. And there will also very likely be more and more CYA for the NFL. Anything they can do to make it look like they care about the long term health implications they will likely do. But THEY certainly aren't going to try to make any changes that have big impacts on the bottom line. That includes anything that will drop interest level to a significant degree.

So it's not going to be outlawed, there will always be guys interested in playing, and a lot of folks are willing to watch and pay. All of which leads back to the original question - "What's going to kill it?".

 
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Debut of American Flag Football league includes former NFL players like 85, Vick, and TO:

http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/06/28/while-terrell-owens-and-chad-ochocinco-banter-michael-vick-shines-in-flag-football-debut/
 

Far from a sellout, the vast majority of the stands were empty at the 18,000-seat stadium, which is home to the San Jose Earthquakes.

Most of the fans were gathered around the field for an up-close look at the ex-NFL players recruited for the launch game as Team Vick pulled off a 64-41 victory over Team Owens.

“Obviously we were giving away all the net proceeds to a wonderful charity, so the purpose of this game was not to generate revenue by selling tickets,” AFFL founder Jeff Lewis said. “Most of our energy here was directed at creating basically a document. What does high-level 7-on-7 flag football look like?”
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A decline in ratings was inevitable. It was hubris for them to think they could maintain  ratings in this entertainment environment.

 
It is a very small sample size...but I was in a commuter van with 7 passengers and the NFL-Anthem topic came up. To my surprise, all 7 people had the NFL Sunday Ticket, and 4 of the 7 cancelled it due to the Anthem issue.

 
Asslete said:
It is a very small sample size...but I was in a commuter van with 7 passengers and the NFL-Anthem topic came up. To my surprise, all 7 people had the NFL Sunday Ticket, and 4 of the 7 cancelled it due to the Anthem issue.
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It's nice to see people exercising their right to peaceful protest.

 
can't they just take off the herlmets and shoulder pads and basically play rugby with passing?  do rugby players suffer the same brain injuries and long term health issues that football players do?

 start kids later , like 7th or 8th grade, not 5 year old peewee stuff..

I'd get rid of Pop Warner football altogether.

 
Good article on a reason rating are down. https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/too-many-bad-teams-awful-quarterback-play-making-nfl-games-hard-to-watch/

QB play is awful. However they are not telling who is also to blame and that is the NCAA. Everyone else is in college to learn a profession. However QBs in college are not. The vast majority of QB's are not taught how to play NFL QB while in college because that doesn't win the NCAA championship very often. Very few have learned how to read a defense. They are taught to drop back, look and run which is a massive failure at the NFL level. Just look at Cam Newton. Zero mechanics, can't it the broadside of a barn and needs 6'-5" targets and is still a loser. He's lucky they actually have a good D. Teaching this is also an issue. The NFL can't even find capable coaches. Sark. What a disaster. Single handedly has destroyed ATL. It might be fixed with rules where you actually  start calling fouls on every play and force the defenders to quit grabbing the receivers.

 
lod001 said:
Good article on a reason rating are down. https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/too-many-bad-teams-awful-quarterback-play-making-nfl-games-hard-to-watch/

QB play is awful. However they are not telling who is also to blame and that is the NCAA. Everyone else is in college to learn a profession. However QBs in college are not. The vast majority of QB's are not taught how to play NFL QB while in college because that doesn't win the NCAA championship very often. Very few have learned how to read a defense. They are taught to drop back, look and run which is a massive failure at the NFL level. Just look at Cam Newton. Zero mechanics, can't it the broadside of a barn and needs 6'-5" targets and is still a loser. He's lucky they actually have a good D. Teaching this is also an issue. The NFL can't even find capable coaches. Sark. What a disaster. Single handedly has destroyed ATL. It might be fixed with rules where you actually  start calling fouls on every play and force the defenders to quit grabbing the receivers.
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This. I have a feeling this could be a huge issue going forward. I mean, who the hell wants to watch Stanton, Beathard or Keenum? I have Sunday Ticket and have found most of the games downright unwatchable. The lack of offensive continuity is a major problem, and you can connect that to the rash of injuries we've seen to big names this season, but you can't deny that the future of the QB position is in a rough spot. Sure, it's impossible for every team to have a competent quarterback at all times, but I've never seen so many subpar options in the league. It's truly sad. I'd imagine Carson Palmer hangs up the cleats after this season; and I doubt we have to wait very long for guys like Brady, Ben and Brees (probably has a few more good years left, but you get the point) to do the same. That really leaves Rodgers and Wilson as legit QB options. Think Wentz, Goff and Watson are headed in the right direction, but the rest of the league is a landmine. Obviously, you could make a case for Mariota, Winston and Stafford, but I think they've plateaued to some extent. If you don't have a single-caller to run the show, the offense will suffer. Unless, of course, you have a defense like the Seahawks or Jaguars that can mask your ineptitude. Maybe I'm being a wet blanket, but I'm legitimately scared. The future of this league is tenuous at best. 

Here's hoping the league wakes up and starts to see that the practice cap is detrimental to the product it puts on the field every Sunday. 

 
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lod001 said:
Good article on a reason rating are down. https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/too-many-bad-teams-awful-quarterback-play-making-nfl-games-hard-to-watch/

QB play is awful. However they are not telling who is also to blame and that is the NCAA. Everyone else is in college to learn a profession. However QBs in college are not. The vast majority of QB's are not taught how to play NFL QB while in college because that doesn't win the NCAA championship very often. Very few have learned how to read a defense. They are taught to drop back, look and run which is a massive failure at the NFL level. Just look at Cam Newton. Zero mechanics, can't it the broadside of a barn and needs 6'-5" targets and is still a loser. He's lucky they actually have a good D. Teaching this is also an issue. The NFL can't even find capable coaches. Sark. What a disaster. Single handedly has destroyed ATL. It might be fixed with rules where you actually  start calling fouls on every play and force the defenders to quit grabbing the receivers.
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Well why pay for a minor league system when you can collude and force athletes to go to a place for academia? I would say a good 50% of professional, and I have to emphasize the professional part, athletes have no need for a college education. The whole system is bogus but everyone plays a long because it prevents the NFL from cutting into revenue, generates massive revenue on the NCAA side of the house and college coaches make a living far beyond what they would end up normally making. I’m of the belief that they shouldn’t be paid to be an amateur athlete but I don’t believe the system as is right now is made for amatuers. 

 
jrwall said:
This. I have a feeling this could be a huge issue going forward. I mean, who the hell wants to watch Stanton, Bethard or Keenum? I have Sunday Ticket and have found most of the games downright unwatchable. The lack of offensive continuity is a major problem, and you can connect that to the rash of injuries we've seen to big names this season, but you can't deny that the future of the QB position is in a rough spot. Sure, it's impossible for every team to have a competent quarterback at all times, but I've never seen so many subpar options in the league. It's truly sad. I'd imagine Carson Palmer hangs up the cleats after this season; and I doubt we have to wait very long for guys like Brady, Ben and Brees (probably has a few more good years left, but you get the point) to do the same. That really leaves Rodgers and Wilson as legit QB options. Think Wentz, Goff and Watson are headed in the right direction, but the rest of the league is a landmine. Obviously, you could make a case for Mariota, Winston and Stafford, but I think they've plateaued to some extent. If you don't have a single-caller to run the show, the offense will suffer. Unless, of course, you have a defense like the Seahawks or Jaguars that can mask your ineptitude. Maybe I'm being a wet blanket, but I'm legitimately scared. The future of this league is tenuous at best. 

Here's hoping the league wakes up and starts to see that the practice cap is detrimental to the product it puts on the field every Sunday. 
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I know most don't feel the same way but many Iowa fans have become new 49ers fans this year with Beathard and Kittle starting for them.  I haven't cared to watch 49ers games this much since Young and Rice were there.

 
Fun to look back on this thread.  Since all this has amounted to is posters on the margins promoting an agenda, maybe it belongs in the politics sub-forum.  

 
Couple of thoughts:

  • The popularity of the NFL increased with the rise in fantasy football.  I wonder if FFL reached its peak and is starting to tail off.  Maybe I'm way off, but it seems to me the traffic on these boards is way down from what it used to be just a few years ago.
  • The frequency of penalties kills the flow of the game.  I can't get excited about a big play until I look to make sure no flags have been thrown.  Ticky-tac roughing the passer calls, pass interference/holding calls, etc.  Maybe my perception is incorrect, but refs have become so flag-happy it kills the momentum of the game.
  • Catch/no catch and what's a TD - another momentum killer.
 
Amused to Death said:
Couple of thoughts:

  • The popularity of the NFL increased with the rise in fantasy football.  I wonder if FFL reached its peak and is starting to tail off.  Maybe I'm way off, but it seems to me the traffic on these boards is way down from what it used to be just a few years ago.
  • The frequency of penalties kills the flow of the game.  I can't get excited about a big play until I look to make sure no flags have been thrown.  Ticky-tac roughing the passer calls, pass interference/holding calls, etc.  Maybe my perception is incorrect, but refs have become so flag-happy it kills the momentum of the game.
  • Catch/no catch and what's a TD - another momentum killer.
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The rule changes do not help.

The amount of commercial breaks suck.

The amount of penalties are terrible.

There doesn't seem to be that great of play but that could be a result from the penalties.

Too much time taken on challenges.

 
The NFL needs a development league, run by the teams, with correspondingly longer contract commitments for the players.

Baseball does it well...no one wants to see the typical 1st round pitcher get shelled in the majors year one, but after 3-4 years of maturing physically and mentally he comes up and stars.

Let colleges find the plus athletes and teach them skills and work ethic, then bring them up to the minors and let them hone the craft of their professional position in a place with less pressure. 

Many NFL fan bases are rabid enough to follow and support a minor league squad in their own city, I expect.  And we all know how desperate ESPN has gotten for watchable programming.  Win-win.

 
jrwall said:
This. I have a feeling this could be a huge issue going forward. I mean, who the hell wants to watch Stanton, Beathard or Keenum? I have Sunday Ticket and have found most of the games downright unwatchable. The lack of offensive continuity is a major problem, and you can connect that to the rash of injuries we've seen to big names this season, but you can't deny that the future of the QB position is in a rough spot. Sure, it's impossible for every team to have a competent quarterback at all times, but I've never seen so many subpar options in the league. It's truly sad. I'd imagine Carson Palmer hangs up the cleats after this season; and I doubt we have to wait very long for guys like Brady, Ben and Brees (probably has a few more good years left, but you get the point) to do the same. That really leaves Rodgers and Wilson as legit QB options. Think Wentz, Goff and Watson are headed in the right direction, but the rest of the league is a landmine. Obviously, you could make a case for Mariota, Winston and Stafford, but I think they've plateaued to some extent. If you don't have a single-caller to run the show, the offense will suffer. Unless, of course, you have a defense like the Seahawks or Jaguars that can mask your ineptitude. Maybe I'm being a wet blanket, but I'm legitimately scared. The future of this league is tenuous at best. 

Here's hoping the league wakes up and starts to see that the practice cap is detrimental to the product it puts on the field every Sunday. 
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I've done this on other forums in the past when this same point was made ten years ago and a half decade ago and three years ago and....

I was able to convince the person making your same argument that he/she was mistaken. Pick a year, any year from 20+ years ago, go team-by-team, and you'll see QB play is not worse now. 

Let's try 1985 vs this year (all 1985 QBs who threw 200+ passes are noted). 1985 was the first random year that popped into my head and was considered as a year that had good QB play for the most part.

Cowboys- Danny White vs Dak Prescott

Redskins- Joe Theismann/Jay Schroeder vs Kirk Cousins (Theismann was rotten that year)

Eagles- Ron Jaworski vs Carson Wentz

Giants- Phil Simms vs Eli Manning

Vikings- Tommy Kramer vs Sam Bradford/Case Keenum

Bears- Jim McMahon vs Mitch Trubisky

Lions- Eric Hipple vs Matthew Stafford

Packers- Lynn Dickey vs Aaron Rodgers

Saints- Dave Wilson vs Drew Brees 

Buccaneers- Steve DeBerg vs Jameis Winston

Falcons- Dave Archer vs Matt Ryan

Rams-  Dieter Brock vs Jared Goff

Cardinals- Neil Lomax vs Carson Palmer

49ers- Joe Montana vs Brian Hoyer

Seahawks- Dave Krieg vs Russell Wilson

Jets- Ken O'Brien vs Josh McCown

Dolphins- Dan Marino vs Jay Cutler

Patriots- Tony Eason vs Tom Brady

Bills- Vince Ferragamo/Bruce Mathison vs Tyrod Taylor

Colts- Mike Pagel vs Jacoby Brissett

*Browns/Ravens- Bernie Kosar vs Joe Flacco or DeShone Kizer (depending on where you stand on how the league handles the franchises)

Bengals- Boomer Esiason vs Andy Dalton

Steelers- Mark Malone vs Ben Roethlisberger

Oilers/Titans- Warren Moon vs Marcus Mariota

Raiders- Marc Wilson vs Derek Carr

Broncos- John Elway vs Trevor Siemian

Chiefs- Bill Kenney vs Alex Smith

Chargers- Dan Fouts/Mark Herrmann vs Philip Rivers

franchises that didn't exist in 1985- Panthers, Jaguars, *new Browns, Texans

Of the 28 franchises in existence in 1985, I see only the Bears, 49ers, Jets, Dolphins, *Browns, Bengals, Colts, and Broncos as clearly having better QB situations than they have now. A bunch of others are arguable such as 1985 Simms vs 2017 Manning and 1985 Moon vs 2017 Mariota (I remember 1985; Moon had a level of potential fairly commensurate with Mariota's current level). Others clearly favor the current quarterback (Falcons, Patriots, Raiders, Cowboys, etc).  

*unlike the league, I like to consider the old Browns and the Ravens to be the same franchise

The people who try to make the argument that the current QBs are not great as they were in olden times and the NFL is doomed because the good ones will retire, don't seem to ever remember that the league always has had shaky quarterbacks and there are always good ones who enter the league.   

 
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Amused to Death said:
Couple of thoughts:

  • The popularity of the NFL increased with the rise in fantasy football.  I wonder if FFL reached its peak and is starting to tail off.  Maybe I'm way off, but it seems to me the traffic on these boards is way down from what it used to be just a few years ago.
  • The frequency of penalties kills the flow of the game.  I can't get excited about a big play until I look to make sure no flags have been thrown.  Ticky-tac roughing the passer calls, pass interference/holding calls, etc.  Maybe my perception is incorrect, but refs have become so flag-happy it kills the momentum of the game.
  • Catch/no catch and what's a TD - another momentum killer.
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I don't see any evidence that FFL is tailing off - maybe there is some, but i haven't seen it.

On one hand, people complain about penalties and another they complain about injuries.  All the penalties suck but they are a necessary evil.  NFL has to try to limit them, keep players healthy as much as possible, try to minimize concussions as much as possible - if not, that will be more likely the death of football.

Catch/ no catch: i don't think the solution here is a simple as a lot of people make it out to be. Any proposed solution i've seen would raise just as many questions as the current rule.

 
I haven't watched a non-Packers game yet this year.  Don't plan to do so either.  Anecdotally, I quit FF last year.  Don't miss it one bit.  Had an opportunity to take over a two-time defending dynasty champ this past offseason and passed.  Don't regret it.  

 
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Sabertooth said:
I haven't watched a non-Packers game yet this year.  Don't plan to do so either.  Anecdotally, I quit FF last year.  Don't miss it one bit.  Had an opportunity to take over a two-time defending dynasty champ this past offseason and passed.  Don't regret it.  
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Dude. 30,000+ posts on a FF site... and counting?

Yeah, OK. I guess we all continue to follow and participate in what we stopped following and participating in. Makes sense now.

 
Godsbrother said:
I may be the only one left but I still like NFL football.   :hey:
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Still have dynasty and redraft teams, still watch 5 games at once but the product is as bad as I've ever seen. It's starting to get better but this is week 8. I blame the new practice rules for making weeks 1-4 the real pre-season. Wentz practiced on his own with his teammates and it shows.

QB position is is serious decline but may get better in the upcoming draft.

WR position is awful right now. Only Brown is consistently putting up numbers. Once again blame on the practice rules. 

RB position seems to be coming back & 2018 will help as well.

TE is pretty awful.

 
Dizzy said:
Dude. 30,000+ posts on a FF site... and counting?

Yeah, OK. I guess we all continue to follow and participate in what we stopped following and participating in. Makes sense now.
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I don't really follow it.  I mostly go on the FFA now.  This thread title caught my eye.  I've been on this board over 20 years I think.  I don't know.  I remember being on here when GWB got elected President.  

 
I'm in 4 leagues. 1 Dynasty.  I've watched 1 complete game this year.  And probably 2.5 games total the whole season. I just check how I did Monday morning.

I see guys of the waiver wire and am :confused:  who they are :lmao:

 
Fariq said:
The people who try to make the argument that the current QBs are not great as they were in olden times and the NFL is doomed because the good ones will retire, don't seem to ever remember that the league always has had shaky quarterbacks and there are always good ones who enter the league.   
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Fair point, but the QB position is MUCH more important now than it was in even the 90's. The rules (Pass interference, skirts on QBs) favor the passing game so much more now.

Other things have snow balled to get to where we are now, too... What limited practice time the teams do have now is even more focussed on starting QBs, so backups don't get as many reps. I also don't feel like backups get game time experience, either, because starters don't seem to get hurt as often. So the league isn't developing the position as much, either.

 
The NFL has reached the point where there are at least 5-10 injury stoppages every singe game.  And practically every game has a guy who needs to get carted off the field because of a serious injury.  That's depressing to watch.  Combine that with the number of penalties (plus the time needed to announce the penalty, reset the ball, and reset the play), the number of replays, and the over-analysis of every blade of grass on the field, and the NFL just doesn't have a good quality product right now.

With the NBA coming back this week, it magnifies the NFL's flaws even further.  Basketball is smooth with constant action, has very few injuries, and the whistles are quick so there isn't much of a break.

 
Synthesizer said:
The NFL has reached the point where there are at least 5-10 injury stoppages every singe game.  And practically every game has a guy who needs to get carted off the field because of a serious injury.  That's depressing to watch.  Combine that with the number of penalties (plus the time needed to announce the penalty, reset the ball, and reset the play), the number of replays, and the over-analysis of every blade of grass on the field, and the NFL just doesn't have a good quality product right now.

With the NBA coming back this week, it magnifies the NFL's flaws even further.  Basketball is smooth with constant action, has very few injuries, and the whistles are quick so there isn't much of a break.
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I honestly do not know anyone other than my 8 year old son that cares about or watches any NBA.  I really struggle to care about any of it.  I do enjoy college basketball though.

 
Hawkeye21 said:
I honestly do not know anyone other than my 8 year old son that cares about or watches any NBA.  I really struggle to care about any of it.  I do enjoy college basketball though.
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I couldn't care less about the NBA (although I do want the Sixers to have a good season) but my 22 year old son is a much bigger NBA fan then he is an NFL fan.  He watches the primetime NFL games but doesn't watch any Sunday afternoon games.  I also have several friends who follow international soccer more than NFL.

 
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