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DETROIT LIONS 2021: Lions Draft: Draft a QB or the best kneecap biter?


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5 minutes ago, xenon said:

What years are the first rounders? 

2022 and 2023. Rams don’t have a first this year.

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Not successfully you couldn’t 

I believe this is the first win the Lions have ever had in January.

I’m usually not one to get caught up in “celebrity” lives, but as a parent my ♥️ goes out to Matthew & Kelly. Her six hour brain surgery morphed into a twelve hour procedure, but she’s walking and

13 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Id take a first to take any contract in the league. 

And it’s not even that bad. LA has to cover part of the dead cap money Detroit can walk away in 2 years.

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5 minutes ago, voiceofunreason said:

Lol, you're going to hate that Goff contract in a year. They got 2 late firsts. Solid value but they need to find a qb.

That’s what the 7th pick in this years draft is for 

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16 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

.  

I can argue Goff is just as good as Stafford.

We can argue a lot of things which are wrong.

I actually don't dislike Goff. But Stafford is better. By a fair amount.

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People discounting Rams are also in toughest division (far and away IMO) in football too. These picks could wind up being pretty solid 1sts. That Det got 2 1sts at all as a rebuilding team that they mutually agreed Stafford wouldn't be part of is just awesome.

I think SF (and their killer D when healthy) will upgrade on QB this offseason as well. Stafford is a huge upgrade over Goff but the Rams also benefitted from the 49ers being absolutely decimated on both sides of the ball with injuries this year. Kyler another year under belt + an offseason to work with Hopkins. Sea + LA + SF + AZ gonna be one helluva division.

Edited by Sudoku_in_the_Bathtub
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6 minutes ago, Sudoku_in_the_Bathtub said:

People discounting Rams are also in toughest division (far and away IMO) in football too. These picks could wind up being pretty solid 1sts. That Det got 2 1sts at all as a rebuilding team that they mutually agreed Stafford wouldn't be part of is just awesome.

I think SF (and their killer D when healthy) will upgrade on QB this offseason as well. Stafford is a huge upgrade over Goff but the Rams also benefitted from the 49ers being absolutely decimated on both sides of the ball with injuries this year. Kyler another year under belt + an offseason to work with Hopkins. Sea + LA + SF + AZ gonna be one helluva division.

Plus Rams have 22 mil dead money in Goff plus Stafford contract. No first or third this year but expected to get a couple compensatory 3rds

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Good job Lions.  Probably better that the 1sts are 2022 and 2023 as there is at least some potential for the Rams to find themselves in a Texans-style scenario. 

Congrats.

-QG

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45 minutes ago, voiceofunreason said:

Lol, you're going to hate that Goff contract in a year. They got 2 late firsts. Solid value but they need to find a qb.

According to this, there is no guaranteed money for Goff after this season, so the Lions can move on without taking a hit.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/lions-trade-matthew-stafford-to-the-rams-for-two-first-round-picks-a-third-round-pick-and-jared-goff/

It is still early in the process, but this certainly feels like a totally different front office approach.  Hope it leads to success, great start so far!

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The media went way overboard regarding the 'rah-rah-kneecaps', very small portion of the Dan Campbell PC. Sensationalism at it's finest. I finally got around to listening to the whole thing, and I think he had plenty of good things to say, and if I was a Lions fan, I'd feel pretty good about the hire. Now the Stafford deal. Lions fans have been long-suffering, as a WFTskins fan, I sympathize. I'd have to say, for the time being, this ought to be a pretty upbeat Thread. Wishing you guys all the best!

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Obviously mixed feelings about Goff. Makes me curious if QB is still the play for the 7th pick, or they see if he's salvageable as a starter. A 3rd's okay for this year, since the Lions are short on picks. But two future firsts for a team that needs to build from the ground up? Yeah, definitely a hefty payout. Now to see if the Lions have a GM who can do something with the picks.

So, a bit meh about the trade seeming to fit a) Stafford's needs (recent home in LA) and b) having a GM formally from the Rams do this, a la Quinntricia picking up castoff Patroits. But can't be upset about the potential here. Even if the team's barely watchable for a time. 

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Congrats guys. Great deal for the Lions. As a Skins fan I was hoping they would trade for Stafford, but not at those prices. Most I wanted to give up was a 1st and a 3rd. I think you fleeced the Rams. With as tough as the NFC West is going to be, those picks could be better than expected if some injuries happen etc.

I see some people in the Stafford thread arguing that it’s not a great deal for the Lions since they had to take on Goff’s contract. I don’t get this take at all as the Lions have the cap space, aren’t winning this year, and need someone to play the position in a season that will probably end up with a top 5 pick anyway. And for that they get a future 1st that can be used as ammo to trade up for a QB in future years (if they don’t take one at 7 this year).

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2 hours ago, Razors Edge said:

This is not a trade the Lions ever make, for one reason or another.

Flabbergasted Im seeing the Lions on this end of the deal. Did Snead just gift wrap success for Holmes out the gate? Knowing people in this biz matters. If Holmes can make good signing, things may have hopes for changing.  

I can argue Goff is just as good as Stafford.

Compare that to what Bill Belichick did to the Lions, dumping his 2 worst employees in Quinn & Patricia on them.

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59 minutes ago, Johnny Utah #9 said:

Congrats guys. Great deal for the Lions. As a Skins fan I was hoping they would trade for Stafford, but not at those prices. Most I wanted to give up was a 1st and a 3rd. I think you fleeced the Rams. With as tough as the NFC West is going to be, those picks could be better than expected if some injuries happen etc.

I see some people in the Stafford thread arguing that it’s not a great deal for the Lions since they had to take on Goff’s contract. I don’t get this take at all as the Lions have the cap space, aren’t winning this year, and need someone to play the position in a season that will probably end up with a top 5 pick anyway. And for that they get a future 1st that can be used as ammo to trade up for a QB in future years (if they don’t take one at 7 this year).

Yes, 2021 was going to be a dumpster fire either way. This sets up 2022 &  2023 to be much better going forward. The extra 3rd this year might even turn out ok.

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I won't be surprised if teams make offers for Goff.  It seems like his price tag is relatively cheap due to the contract.  Detroit still in position to take a rookie QB in the draft.  For entertainment value, I like to see him dealt to San Francisco.     

Edited by Donnybrook
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7 hours ago, Leroy Hoard said:

Yes, 2021 was going to be a dumpster fire either way. This sets up 2022 &  2023 to be much better going forward. The extra 3rd this year might even turn out ok.

Right, 2021 is tanking in disguise, which a roster as bad as this one needs to do. This move was about getting on a corrective path in 22 then hopefully start competing in 23. 

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6 hours ago, Donnybrook said:

I won't be surprised if teams make offers for Goff.  It seems like his price tag is relatively cheap due to the contract.  Detroit still in position to take a rookie QB in the draft.  For entertainment value, I like to see him dealt to San Francisco.     

All indications are the Rams had to give Detroit a 1st just to take Goff so that makes me think no team is giving the Lions anything for Goff. This was an NBA style trade where the Rams had to pay for the Lions to take on a bad asset. 

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I'm really mixed on this.  If they truly had multiple offers involving 1st round picks, I suspect this deal will not end up being the best offer.

Taking on Goff is a real headache, in my opinion.  First, I am of the opinion Goff is just terrible.  He comes across as aloof, not terribly bright for a QB, and seemingly needed McVay to really guide him to his average results.  I just don't see any scenario where there is a career revival here, which I don't think many are expecting anyways.  Second, and more important though, is that taking him on blows up their cap this year.  I get that they are looking at a multi year rebuild, but as far as cap, they are in a position to trim a lot of dead weight over the next 2 years.  With the cap being depressed this year, there will be some players stuck taking lesser contracts I would expect.  Detroit could have been in a position to potentially take advantage of that.  You don't rebuild via free agency, but you can help it along through that avenue.  That has been diminished with the Goff contract on the books for this year and to a lesser extent, next as well.

I'm happy for Satfford, it sounds like he wanted LA, and he got LA.  I'll be rooting for him there.  I just have this feeling that this wasn't the best deal Detroit could have made.  I guess that feeling just comes with being a Lions fan.

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12 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

All indications are the Rams had to give Detroit a 1st just to take Goff so that makes me think no team is giving the Lions anything for Goff. This was an NBA style trade where the Rams had to pay for the Lions to take on a bad asset. 

Assuming the Lions have the cap space (and willing to spend the cash),  one option would be to convert salary to roster bonus,  pay Goff,  eat the cap hit,, then deal a more palatable contract

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17 minutes ago, Mene said:

I'm really mixed on this.  If they truly had multiple offers involving 1st round picks, I suspect this deal will not end up being the best offer.

Taking on Goff is a real headache, in my opinion.  First, I am of the opinion Goff is just terrible.  He comes across as aloof, not terribly bright for a QB, and seemingly needed McVay to really guide him to his average results.  I just don't see any scenario where there is a career revival here, which I don't think many are expecting anyways.  Second, and more important though, is that taking him on blows up their cap this year.  I get that they are looking at a multi year rebuild, but as far as cap, they are in a position to trim a lot of dead weight over the next 2 years.  With the cap being depressed this year, there will be some players stuck taking lesser contracts I would expect.  Detroit could have been in a position to potentially take advantage of that.  You don't rebuild via free agency, but you can help it along through that avenue.  That has been diminished with the Goff contract on the books for this year and to a lesser extent, next as well.

I'm happy for Satfford, it sounds like he wanted LA, and he got LA.  I'll be rooting for him there.  I just have this feeling that this wasn't the best deal Detroit could have made.  I guess that feeling just comes with being a Lions fan.

The Lions are looking at this from a 2022+ lens. The way the former group structured contracts they had little flexibility this season, but they may be able to open up a brinks truck of funding starting next season. Gotta endure some pain first though. 

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7 hours ago, Donnybrook said:

I won't be surprised if teams make offers for Goff.  It seems like his price tag is relatively cheap due to the contract.  Detroit still in position to take a rookie QB in the draft.  For entertainment value, I like to see him dealt to San Francisco.     

The 49ers know how bad Goff is, they'd never want him

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I actually really like that the 1st round picks are in 2022 and 2023 for a few reasons:

1. This draft season will be unlike any other. No combine. Star players who didn't play or played in limited games. I know the draft is always a bit of a crap shoot but it could be even moreso this year. 

2. The Lions are going to be really bad this year and likely really bad in 2022 as well. Why start the clock on the rookie deals when the team is bad and burn those years off? It's better to delay that a bit.

3. The Rams play in a loaded division. By this season Stafford will be  33, Robert Woods will be 29, AD will be 30, Whitworth is 39, Kupp will be 28. The team is kind of old and don't have the resources to get younger. It would not surprise me at all if the team is not nearly as good in 2021 and especially 22 as people think. I think the odds are better then people are giving credit for that the 2023 1st rounder is a top 12 pick. 

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Do the Lions draft their QB of the future in 2021? If so, there is a chance 4 QBs will be gone by the 7th pick. Lawrence to the Jags, Wilson to the Jets, Fields to the Falcons and Lance to the Panthers via trade-up.

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4 minutes ago, SoBeDad said:

Do the Lions draft their QB of the future in 2021? If so, there is a chance 4 QBs will be gone by the 7th pick. Lawrence to the Jags, Wilson to the Jets, Fields to the Falcons and Lance to the Panthers via trade-up.

They have the ability to play it by ear.  Unless they "really" love one of these guys then the smart move is to wait to see who falls, if no one does then so be it.  They don't have an emergency need for a QB now.

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1 hour ago, Mene said:

He comes across as aloof, not terribly bright for a QB, and seemingly needed McVay to really guide him to his average results.  I just don't see any scenario where there is a career revival

I distinctly recall during the pre-draft process where Goff seemed 'off' and I couldn't put my finger on it but then saw this:

Jared Goff Diet: How His Enzyme Deficiency Was Discovered

Quote

... According to WebMD, “Inherited metabolic disorders are genetic conditions that result in metabolism problems. Most people with inherited metabolic disorders have a defective gene that results in an enzyme deficiency.”

Last year he had a thumb injury and his relationship with Sean McVay had gotten bad.

Relationship between Rams' Jared Goff, Sean McVay 'not great'?

Quote

...  "The people I've spoken to said basically at this moment the relationship with Goff and McVay: not great. They need marriage counseling is what one person said to me. I think this is something that they're going to be able to work through, but there's got to be some healing and that's not just with Jared Goff's injured thumb."

 

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19 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Ummm, leave it to Lions fans to think the player who didnt lead his team to a SB is the better player. 

This is my disconnect with Lions fans, they dont ever correlate wins with success. 

Lets not look at winning success or playoff success, lets look at production...

Goff has better career rating, comp pct, ypt avg. Measurables...it doesnt appear that hard to compare actually.

His career is shorter so career totals are not measurable, thats why I used those. 

Oh and dont forget playoff experience. This is the part where Lions fans discount playoff experience and his leading a team to a SB. Lions fans, lol They will always die on that Stafford hill.  

Capella isn't a Lions fan.  He's a Bucs guy. 

 

And you're being myopic if you don't see that Stafford has been and still is the better QB.  But, the nice thing is, we should have a chance to see who's right next season.  If Stafford puts up the same or worse numbers than Goff then you'll have your answer.

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13 minutes ago, Foosball God said:

They have the ability to play it by ear.  Unless they "really" love one of these guys then the smart move is to wait to see who falls, if no one does then so be it.  They don't have an emergency need for a QB now.

Agreed. Its not like they're not going to be in position to draft a top qb in the 2022 draft.

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  • Da Guru changed the title to DETROIT LIONS 2020: Kelly Stafford finally gets to LA!! Oh and Matt was traded to the Rams as well.

It is a good deal.   With Stafford next year Lions are a 5-11 team, with Goff the Lions will be a 5-11 team. Goff is 7 years younger so maybe he can still develop.

If they could trade Goff for a #2 or #3 before the draft it will be a great deal.

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1 hour ago, MAC_32 said:

The Lions are looking at this from a 2022+ lens. The way the former group structured contracts they had little flexibility this season, but they may be able to open up a brinks truck of funding starting next season. Gotta endure some pain first though. 

It's a mess, no doubt.  Just looking right now, they could cut Trufant (6.2m), Coleman (4.9m), Williams (4.7m), Shelton (4.0m), Jones (2.6m), & James (2.1m) opening up 24.5m.  Some of those will happen regardless, as the Goff contract puts them an estimated 11 mil over the cap.  I just see with no Goff, those cuts leave you ~40.5m under.  With Goff, those cuts get you ~13.5 under.  I would rather have had 40m in cap space and have signed a Tyrod Taylor than have Goff. 

2022 gives them the outs on Collins (10m) and Flowers (12m), which will really open things up.

They are a few years away, but I just have this suspicion that there are going to be some free agents bargains this year due to the depressed cap and no teams really having planned for it.

 

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51 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

I actually really like that the 1st round picks are in 2022 and 2023 for a few reasons:

1. This draft season will be unlike any other. No combine. Star players who didn't play or played in limited games. I know the draft is always a bit of a crap shoot but it could be even moreso this year. 

2. The Lions are going to be really bad this year and likely really bad in 2022 as well. Why start the clock on the rookie deals when the team is bad and burn those years off? It's better to delay that a bit.

3. The Rams play in a loaded division. By this season Stafford will be  33, Robert Woods will be 29, AD will be 30, Whitworth is 39, Kupp will be 28. The team is kind of old and don't have the resources to get younger. It would not surprise me at all if the team is not nearly as good in 2021 and especially 22 as people think. I think the odds are better then people are giving credit for that the 2023 1st rounder is a top 12 pick. 

I like this too... this year the draft involves more gamble than it ordinarily does.  Nice to have those picks in years where things will be closer to normal for scouting purposes.

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41 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Why is he so bad if his career rating and comp pct is better than Stafford, oh and dont forget he has a better winning pct?

But where is this rhetoric coming from? Lions fans should like getting the better QB, one who knows how to win.

Because Stafford has never had good coaches or a decent team around him. His coaches in his career have been Jim Schwartz, Jim Caldwell, and Matt Patricia, and hes never had a legit running game.

in 166 career games, hes had a RB rush for 100+ yards 11 times. 11 times in 166 games, and I believe hes 8-3 in those games. The fact that he's 16th all time in both passing yards and TDs speaks volumes as to how good he's been on those Detroit teams.

Goff will be a backup after the 2021 season, hes just not a good QB. Im a 49er fan and have seen plenty of Goff to know hes average at best.

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1 minute ago, Mene said:

It's a mess, no doubt.  Just looking right now, they could cut Trufant (6.2m), Coleman (4.9m), Williams (4.7m), Shelton (4.0m), Jones (2.6m), & James (2.1m) opening up 24.5m.  Some of those will happen regardless, as the Goff contract puts them an estimated 11 mil over the cap.  I just see with no Goff, those cuts leave you ~40.5m under.  With Goff, those cuts get you ~13.5 under.  I would rather have had 40m in cap space and have signed a Tyrod Taylor than have Goff. 

2022 gives them the outs on Collins (10m) and Flowers (12m), which will really open things up.

They are a few years away, but I just have this suspicion that there are going to be some free agents bargains this year due to the depressed cap and no teams really having planned for it.

 

I get what you're saying, but free agents don't make much sense on rebuilding teams. By the time the team starts to turn the corner those acquisitions are either/both nearing the end of their term and/or heading down the age bell curve. Additionally, I think it's fair to expect some of these teams in bad cap situations to kick the can down to 22. Bargains won't be limited to just this season. 

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Just now, Razors Edge said:

Goff never had a Calvin in his career.

Food for thought, can you imagine having Calvin Johnson all those years and still not being able to break 30 TDs but twice? Goffs already done it once, without Calvin. 

Im not being myopic, its that people think Staffords I so much better then he is just because he has been good "For" the Lions. He is pedestrian in every other world. Ironic, as I said I think he isnt that great and yet he still got a haul. Thats the NFL. 

So you're saying the people that get paid to know things about Football believe Stafford is really good then.  It doesn't mean they will be right, but there's that old saying about taking the butcher's word for it.

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2 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

Because Stafford has never had good coaches or a decent team around him. His coaches in his career have been Jim Schwartz, Jim Caldwell, and Matt Patricia, and hes never had a legit running game.

in 166 career games, hes had a RB rush for 100+ yards 11 times. 11 times in 166 games, and I believe hes 8-3 in those games. The fact that he's 16th all time in both passing yards and TDs speaks volumes as to how good he's been on those Detroit teams.

Goff will be a backup after the 2021 season, hes just not a good QB. Im a 49er fan and have seen plenty of Goff to know hes average at best.

The eye test as well. Stafford makes throws that Goff couldn’t dream of. Stafford has carried the team where Goff often seemed more like he was riding the wave. Plus I think Stafford took a turn maybe 6-7 years ago. He got into shape and really improved his play.

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1 minute ago, Razors Edge said:

Take Fields at 7 if he is there and let him sit, then trade Goff after a good showing for a 2 at seasons end Seems if this GM is playing long game, thats a wise move.

If they get anything for Goff, I'll be thrilled.  A day 2 pick would be fantastic.  I will be really surprised though, Goff has struggled often while in a fantastic situation, which this most definitely is not.

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3 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Take Fields at 7 if he is there and let him sit, then trade Goff after a good showing for a 2 at seasons end Seems if this GM is playing long game, thats a wise move.

You won't always get a chance at drafting a QB like Fields.  I think he'll be gone by 1.07, maybe to the Falcons. Lance should be there, unless a team like the Panthers trade up. The Lions have so many needs, a trade down would also make sense. 

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So Campbell said over the weekend he liked the way KC and Tampa built the base of their teams and then got their star QB to complete the process. I don’t think we can rule out the possibility of the Lions trading back at 7 to a team desperate for a QB like Washington or New England and getting another 1st next year. 7 seems like an ideal spot to land a QB in this draft and with Goff, there will be several teams much more desperate than Detroit for a QB.

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22 minutes ago, need2know said:

Stafford vs Goff is not even close

In terms of ability, no.  Lions were 5-11 with Stafford though and can be 5-11 without him.

The pundits on ESPN and NFL Network think the Lions made a good trade. Right now the Rams have no first round picks for the next 5 years and they are in cap hell.   So they only have a 1-2 window to win and that is about Stafford window as well.

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39 minutes ago, Mene said:

It's a mess, no doubt.  Just looking right now, they could cut Trufant (6.2m), Coleman (4.9m), Williams (4.7m), Shelton (4.0m), Jones (2.6m), & James (2.1m) opening up 24.5m.  Some of those will happen regardless, as the Goff contract puts them an estimated 11 mil over the cap.  I just see with no Goff, those cuts leave you ~40.5m under.  With Goff, those cuts get you ~13.5 under.  I would rather have had 40m in cap space and have signed a Tyrod Taylor than have Goff. 

2022 gives them the outs on Collins (10m) and Flowers (12m), which will really open things up.

They are a few years away, but I just have this suspicion that there are going to be some free agents bargains this year due to the depressed cap and no teams really having planned for it.

 

Free agent bargains aren't going to sign 3+ year contracts at a depressed rate. Won't help them when they are ready to compete.

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  • Da Guru changed the title to DETROIT LIONS 2021: Lions Draft: Draft a QB or the best kneecap biter?

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