General Malaise
Footballguy
Would you say his upside is tremendous?
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QB Russell Wilson, PIT (7 Viewers)
- Thread starter ImTheScientist
- Start date
werdnoynek
Footballguy
perhaps...
cr8f
Footballguy
Similar but I think Wilson is playing far better than Skelton did.
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
'ImTheScientist said:
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Nice bump. So Wilson is starting the so-called "dress rehearsal" game right?
Hooper31
Footballguy
It may be that week 4 is the new week 3. Also, coach Carroll is proving time and time again that he doesn't care what people outside of the organization think.
Joe Summer
Footballguy
I would say he has a plethora of upside.'General%20Malaise said:
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
Wilson has played something like 90 snaps thus far this preseason. The other NFC west starting qbs are around 30. Carroll has balls of steel....so cool how he has gone against conventional wisdom. He said this may not be figured out til week one of the season. If Wilson plays well Friday the job is his IMO. I think Pete and John want him to win this thing.
biju
Footballguy
I think the bolded above is only true if they have success in the QB position this year. Honestly, neither QB needs to be lights out for the Seahawks to have some success, they just need to be able to read a defense or anticipate a route better than T-Jack.
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
As a fan it's been entertaining, as a player for the team they have to enjoy knowing you make it on skill and work ethic....not contract.
Abraham
Footballguy
I'm fairly certain every player in the league makes it on skill.
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
Sorry to burst your bubble but the best players don't always play.....contracts or draft pick tends to dictate things ...this is not the case for the Seahawks and why they are unique.
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Hooper31
Footballguy
Or maybe you're just wrong?
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
Why is it that the exact same situation in Washington- high profile, highly paid QB being outplayed by rookie- is being intepreted so differently? Skip Bayless and a few locals mentioned the obvious- that Kirk Cousins has looked far better than RGIII- and the reaction was "How dare you!" However, everyone has felt comfortable touting a 3rd round rookie-whom nearly everyone expected to go lower in the draft- as a potential starter. Why the double standard?
The Seahawks gave Matt Flynn a ton of money to be their starting QB. What sense does it make to do that, and not even let him open the season as the starter? Talk about not getting a fair chance! The argument is that Wilson has looked so great in preseason. Again the double standard; Cousins has looked at least as good, but almost everyone instantly rresponds with, "But he was playing against 2nd and 3rd stringers!" Yeah, the same kinds of 2nd and 3rd stringers that Wilson has apparently looked so good against that he's going to be handed the starting job, over a guy they signed to a huge free agent contract.
I'm expecting the same kind of double standard here- Russell Wilson is "great," and the idiotic Pete Carroll has "balls of steel" because he's going to hand him the job over the free agent they paid a huge amount of money to play the same position. But Kirk Cousins is nowhere near as "great" as RGIII and the Redskins "have" to start him, because they drafted him so high. Why don't the Seahawks "have" to start Flynn after giving him all that money?
You're really kidding yourselves if you think someone Wilson's size can perform well on a team loaded with the kinds of mediocre skill position players the Seahawks have. T.O.? Hey, if he didn't drop that perfectly thrown bomb from Flynn, how does that impact this QB "battle?" Sidney Rice? Don't make me laugh. The TEs the genius Carroll never throws to? This is not a good offensive team. Flynn is getting screwed- hope he enjoys that big contract.
The Seahawks gave Matt Flynn a ton of money to be their starting QB. What sense does it make to do that, and not even let him open the season as the starter? Talk about not getting a fair chance! The argument is that Wilson has looked so great in preseason. Again the double standard; Cousins has looked at least as good, but almost everyone instantly rresponds with, "But he was playing against 2nd and 3rd stringers!" Yeah, the same kinds of 2nd and 3rd stringers that Wilson has apparently looked so good against that he's going to be handed the starting job, over a guy they signed to a huge free agent contract.
I'm expecting the same kind of double standard here- Russell Wilson is "great," and the idiotic Pete Carroll has "balls of steel" because he's going to hand him the job over the free agent they paid a huge amount of money to play the same position. But Kirk Cousins is nowhere near as "great" as RGIII and the Redskins "have" to start him, because they drafted him so high. Why don't the Seahawks "have" to start Flynn after giving him all that money?
You're really kidding yourselves if you think someone Wilson's size can perform well on a team loaded with the kinds of mediocre skill position players the Seahawks have. T.O.? Hey, if he didn't drop that perfectly thrown bomb from Flynn, how does that impact this QB "battle?" Sidney Rice? Don't make me laugh. The TEs the genius Carroll never throws to? This is not a good offensive team. Flynn is getting screwed- hope he enjoys that big contract.
Hooper31
Footballguy
Flynn is not high profile, and he's not being highly paid when compared to other starters around the NFL.
Does anyone care what Skip Bayless says? Anyone? Are you under the impression that Carroll and Schneider care?
Again, no they didn't.
Huge contract? No.
Congrats on getting your "I know better" prediction registered. Bottom line. The team wants to win. If they think Wilson gives them the best chance he will start. If they feel Flynn gives them the best chance he will start. As a Seattle fan I'm going to be good with whichever QB they choose. They know better than I do.
Very predictable response. They are completely similar situations. In both cases, a QB who was expected to be handed the starting job has been unexpectedly outplayed by someone who was expected to be a backup at best.
You're kidding yourself if you don't see the double standard.
You're kidding yourself if you don't see the double standard.
flc735
Footballguy
kolb was getting first shot at the starting gig regardless of what skelton looked likei dont think it would have mattered how well skelton played in the preseason. the cardinals wanted to see what they just bought before they look elsewhere, just like the seahawks are going to do
bonesman
Footballguy
How many National commercials has Matt Flynn appeared in? Compare RG3's contract (and what the team gave up to select him at all) to his while you're at it too. Your one thing they share in common is that they were expected to be handed the job? I'm pretty sure Flynn would've had competition whether it was DangeRuss or not. Griffen? Mmmmmmm... no.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
I agree. They Skins gave up a ton more to acquire Griffin. I can see the point to an extent. But Griffin was brought in to be the face of the franchise. Flynn was passed over by his own offensive coordinator and found the market rather cool on him. He is about the 20th highest paid starting QB right now. The Hawks didn't push all-in on him like the Skins did on RG3.
Pipes
Footballguy
Not only that the Skins basically said RGIII was the starter from day 1 of camp. At no point did Shanny lead on there would be an open competition. Carroll on the other hand never annoited Flynn as the starter and basically said all 3 QB's would have a shot at the starting job. Some lip service there since Tarvaris didn't really seem to get a chance. So it's not Carroll is ripping the starting job from Flynn as he wasn't brought in to be the starter...he was brought in to compete for the job. Carroll made that clear from day 1.
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simey
Footballguy
I watched Russell play every game at NC State, and he didn't have a great RB, WR, or TE, but he excelled. He was a star, and he made everyone around him better. He won games. He is a leader, intelligent, and athletically gifted. Since his freshman year in college, he has consistently proven that he belongs on the field. I didn't even know people thought his height was an issue until he went to Wisconsin with the dream of playing in the NFL, and then I started hearing that he is too short. Russell is a confident young man, and I have no doubt that he will continue to prove that he belongs on the field. Whether it's sooner or later, Russell will be a starting QB in the NFL.
You have difficulty with critical thinking apparently. They are NOT completely similar situations. In fact, the situations are more dissimilar than they are similar.You also don't seem to understand how to use the phrase "double standard". It really doesn't make sense to use it here or apply it to the Seattle/Washington QB situations.
JHuber77
Footballguy
I don't get why alot of the posters here keep saying Flynn got huge money to be the starter. He is only making $2 mil in 2012. The contract was for 19.5 mil over 3 years, 10 of which is guaranteed and $6 mil was a signing bonus.
2012 - $2 mil
2013 - $5.25 mil
2014 - $6.25 mil
_________________
Contrary to popular belief, this is a very managable contract and isn't exactly "starter" money. Many of the backups in the NFL will make more than Flynn on the first year of his deal. It would behoove the Seahawks organization to see what Wilson has before they name a starter. Don't be surprised if Wilson is named the starter.
2012 - $2 mil
2013 - $5.25 mil
2014 - $6.25 mil
_________________
Contrary to popular belief, this is a very managable contract and isn't exactly "starter" money. Many of the backups in the NFL will make more than Flynn on the first year of his deal. It would behoove the Seahawks organization to see what Wilson has before they name a starter. Don't be surprised if Wilson is named the starter.
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
All of Russell Wilson's throws in the bronco's game:
http://youtu.be/i2I-GBiohrk
One thing you will notice is he is under constant pressure yet deals with it great.
http://youtu.be/i2I-GBiohrk
One thing you will notice is he is under constant pressure yet deals with it great.
Check the 5:47 markHow in the world does he pickup that 3rd down?
The situation in terms of Cousins and Wilson is identical; both players were not given any legitimate chance to start and have outperformed the supposed starters at the position. The reaction, by media and fans alike, reveals the double standard clearly. If both Cousins and Wilson have achieved their results vs. 2nd and 3rd teamers, then why is that only an issue for Cousins?
No matter how much they paid Flynn, they signed him as a free agent and it was thought by everyone that he'd be the starter. The fact that Carroll never anointed him as such is baffling in and of itself. If T.O. doesn't drop that perfectly thrown bomb from Flynn, how different does his performance seem?
The situation is also identical to the one the Redskins faced in the mid 1990s. Heath Shuler was drafted third overall, and Gus Frerotte was the scrappy underdog. Why was RGIII made the starter from the moment he walked onstage at the draft? Shuler was instantly despised by the same fans that adored RGIII just as quickly. He was never made the starter and always had to look over his shoulder. The media in Washington, led by Sonny Jurgensen, started demanding the team start Frerotte during his rookie preseason. There is no one in that same media market who would dare to suggest RGIII not be the unquestioned starter, no matter how poorly he plays. In fact, I'd wager they'd lose their job if they did so.
Wilson is too small for the position and will not succeed in a conventional offense at this level. Cousins has immense talent and went to the wrong team. He will continue to show well whenever he plays. If RGIII continues to struggle, you will hear more grumbling from those courageous enough to criticize this magical figure who is on several commercials even though he hasn't started his regular season career.
No matter how much they paid Flynn, they signed him as a free agent and it was thought by everyone that he'd be the starter. The fact that Carroll never anointed him as such is baffling in and of itself. If T.O. doesn't drop that perfectly thrown bomb from Flynn, how different does his performance seem?
The situation is also identical to the one the Redskins faced in the mid 1990s. Heath Shuler was drafted third overall, and Gus Frerotte was the scrappy underdog. Why was RGIII made the starter from the moment he walked onstage at the draft? Shuler was instantly despised by the same fans that adored RGIII just as quickly. He was never made the starter and always had to look over his shoulder. The media in Washington, led by Sonny Jurgensen, started demanding the team start Frerotte during his rookie preseason. There is no one in that same media market who would dare to suggest RGIII not be the unquestioned starter, no matter how poorly he plays. In fact, I'd wager they'd lose their job if they did so.
Wilson is too small for the position and will not succeed in a conventional offense at this level. Cousins has immense talent and went to the wrong team. He will continue to show well whenever he plays. If RGIII continues to struggle, you will hear more grumbling from those courageous enough to criticize this magical figure who is on several commercials even though he hasn't started his regular season career.
simey
Footballguy
That's what I said. He was always more interested in being a professional baseball player at State, and it wasn't until after a down spring/summer in baseball (which was right before his final year of eligibility of playing college football) where his dream changed to being an NFL player. I never heard any State fans talk about his height. The only issue he had on the field his last year playing for State was sometimes forcing the ball to receivers due to their lack of a running game. His height was never an issue.You watched every State game and didn't hear he was too short until he was with Wiscy?
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Pipes
Footballguy
Flynn was never the supposed starter...ever. Like others have mentioned they signed him to a reasonable contract...even for a backup QB. The Skins gave up a ton to move up to draft RGIII so of course he's going to get every opportunity to start.
Again, let's ignore where RGIII was picked in the draft vs. the money Flynn was paid. The performances of Cousins and Wilson are being judged by different standards. You all appear completely enamored with what Wilson has done against scrub defenders. This is the defense we hear from RGIII groupies, regarding Cousins' performance.
Either it IS impressive to put up great stats against 2nd and 3rd teamers, or it isn't. You can't have it both ways. And I do not seriously believe for a moment that Cousins would have a chance to start over Flynn, as well as he has played, or that Wilson (or any other QB on the planet) would have a chance to start over the most hyped QB in modern history.
And what about the Shuler-Frerotte analogy? That's as close to an exact parallel as you can get. Same team. QB drafted in basically the same spot. Wildly different standards in each situation.
Either it IS impressive to put up great stats against 2nd and 3rd teamers, or it isn't. You can't have it both ways. And I do not seriously believe for a moment that Cousins would have a chance to start over Flynn, as well as he has played, or that Wilson (or any other QB on the planet) would have a chance to start over the most hyped QB in modern history.
And what about the Shuler-Frerotte analogy? That's as close to an exact parallel as you can get. Same team. QB drafted in basically the same spot. Wildly different standards in each situation.
If he had height he would of been a pro prospect and wouldn't of been more interested in baseball while at State.He was under appreciated while at State because the rest of the team stunk. It took a year of primetime with a supporting cast to get the scouts to really buy in.That's what I said. He was always more interested in being a professional baseball player at State, and it wasn't until after a down spring/summer in baseball (which was right before his final year of eligibility of playing college football) where his dream changed to being an NFL player. I never heard any State fans talk about his height. The only issue he had on the field his last year playing for State was sometimes forcing the ball to receivers due to their lack of a running game. His height was never an issue.
biju
Footballguy
You're not getting it and probably won't get it, but there's a big difference between what the fans and media think vs. what the coaches and players think. I can guarantee you that Flynn, the Seahawks, and the local fans knew this was an outright competition. I know people get really grumpy thinking about this but it's a staple in how Pete Carroll coaches and is part of the reason why we're starting to see FAs come to Seattle, knowing they'll get a shot if they perform. Is it a surprise that he may not start? Yes, but only because we thought he was really only competing against T-Jack and didn't expect Wilson to look this good this early.As a side note, most people (locally, at least) don't think Flynn had a bad performance against Denver even though his stat line didn't look good. You're right, the TO drop was squarely on TO but that doesn't mean Wilson hasn't earned the chance to go with the 1s.
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
You initial statement is 100% wrong. Flynn was never anointed the starter and Wilson was told all along he will be competing for the job.
Carroll said he counts the pass to TO and the pass to Tate as TD's for Flynn. In the eyes of management it counts. So I don't understand your issue.
Thats what everyone said at the draft except for one team. Now he has a shot at being the first 3rd round QB pick to start week 1 in 40 years.
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bonesman
Footballguy
Actually, you can. It's possible to have great stats against 2nd and 3rd teamers and not be impressive. It's even possible to have bad stats against 2nd and 3rd stringers and BE impressive. It has nothing to do with #'s at this point.
simey
Footballguy
He was more interested in baseball at State, because that was his passion at the time. In 2010 he was listed as a top 10 Heisman QB prospect, and that was while playing football for State. I do think the best thing for him during his final year of eligibility was to play for Wisconsin since they did have a stronger supporting cast offensively.
Perhaps the problem is you didn't watch him play baseball.
JHuber77
Footballguy
Well he was drafted by the Rockies :X and this is coming from a Rockies fanPerhaps the problem is you didn't watch him play baseball.
Dismattle
Footballguy
Does your view/impression change if the KC secondary is brutal? Im not sure the first team has to be concerned w proper reads, technique. The goal; stop the hawks from movin the ball. (home crowd wanting a win even if it is preseason)
This could be a test to show work needed (refinements) Or we get the post-game conf about: Wilson has loads of potential, we just have several things to work on, before hes ready to play.
I was comming to offer congrats to Wilson Owner's, and started questioning motive's ie. Flynn hasnt made mistakes game managing (from what Ive seen) But neither Flynn nor Wilson may excel against Chiefs starter's
p.s. Im still left thinking it all but ruins Flynn's game (sorta done deal)
This could be a test to show work needed (refinements) Or we get the post-game conf about: Wilson has loads of potential, we just have several things to work on, before hes ready to play.
I was comming to offer congrats to Wilson Owner's, and started questioning motive's ie. Flynn hasnt made mistakes game managing (from what Ive seen) But neither Flynn nor Wilson may excel against Chiefs starter's
p.s. Im still left thinking it all but ruins Flynn's game (sorta done deal)
Jed
Footballguy
Everyone would be singing the praises of Wilson if he was 2 inches taller. I've always thought that was the most overrated stat of a QB - but 99% of NFL scouts will not get past it.
It reminds me of the scouts in Moneyball, obsessed with how a prospect would look. "5 tool guy", "passes the eye test", etc. Give me the Hatteberg types any day.
I hope Wilson kills it in the NFL.
It reminds me of the scouts in Moneyball, obsessed with how a prospect would look. "5 tool guy", "passes the eye test", etc. Give me the Hatteberg types any day.
I hope Wilson kills it in the NFL.
Hooper31
Footballguy
This is very wrong. Carroll never came out and anointed Flynn as his starter. Many people bought into the big lie that Flynn was paid big money and assumed he was going to start. Carroll has been open and honest that this was an open competition. He's been preaching this same story across his whole roster for three years now and been surprisingly and refreshingly consistent. As a fan of the team its been super cool to watch.
Pipes
Footballguy
Noone is discrediting Cousins at all. Both Wilson and Cousins have been impressive in the preseason. By your last statement I see that you don't think too highly of RGIII. That's fine by why not start your own thread about RGIII being overhyped rather than pissing in the Russell Wilson thread?
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
does anyone else think even though Wilson is startin the traditional "prep" game that Carroll would do the un-conventional and then name Flynn the starter?
The guy is just crazy enough to do it!
The guy is just crazy enough to do it!
I understand that the situations for RGIII and Flynn are vastly different. However, the same people who have gone wild over Wilson's performances have tempered their enthusiasm for Cousin's performances by saying they came against 2nd and 3rd stringers. Rotoworld just revealed their own typical bias, actually crediting Wilson with great numbers while working WITH 2nd and 3rd stringers. Okay....
Seattle is making a huge gamble here. They have probably effectively ruined Flynn's confidence. As the boys on "First Take" just said, Carroll should have stood behind Flynn from the moment they signed him. Instead, he instantly declared an open competition. If Wilson starts, and as seems likely underachieves, Flynn is likely to be pressing constantly if they turn to him. Whatever they paid him, they appear to have just thrown money away on a player they aren't even going to let start a single game.
RGIII may turn out to be great, but the hype is so far over the top it's ridiculous.
Seattle is making a huge gamble here. They have probably effectively ruined Flynn's confidence. As the boys on "First Take" just said, Carroll should have stood behind Flynn from the moment they signed him. Instead, he instantly declared an open competition. If Wilson starts, and as seems likely underachieves, Flynn is likely to be pressing constantly if they turn to him. Whatever they paid him, they appear to have just thrown money away on a player they aren't even going to let start a single game.
RGIII may turn out to be great, but the hype is so far over the top it's ridiculous.
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
He could do that for sure. Carroll is crazy. In the first 2 games Flynn has played the first 2 quarters and Wilson the second 2 quarters....thats unconventional. He will probably also use the 4th game different then most do.
I don't see any motivational tactics at play here if that is what you are saying.
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
What do the "first take" boys know about coaching? Would you let the media tell you how to manage your company? Carroll is doing things his way....and as a fan I appreciate that. Kolb was anointed the starter from day 1....how is that working? Failure is failure and success is success..... people are upset because Carroll spits in the face of conventional wisdom. If it works...he's a genius....if it fails then its on him. But at least he will know he did it his way and won't question himself later.The media are a bunch of tools....
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
Not what I was saying at all, I think he wants to see the kid with seattles first team vs another teams first team.
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