cstu
Footballguy
It's not meant to prove anything but it is a symptom of a short QB. Flutie had the same problem, in fact he didn't complete a 20 yard pass until he was 36 and came back from Canada.
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QB Russell Wilson, PIT (10 Viewers)
- Thread starter ImTheScientist
- Start date
Goat Herders
Footballguy
Based on what expectations?
bigdaddydave
Footballguy
Alright I've read the thread and I have a few questions to ask for all of you.
1. "We are the worst passing team"
You are interpreting this as Russell has the lowest completion percentage or something right?
We are the "worst" passing team because we PASS the FEWEST out of any NFL team.
This has nothing to do with Russell.
2. "Flynn would win us these games"
Ohh really? I like Flynn, I really do. In fact, I wanted him to start the season until he simply UNDER-PERFORMED in preseason and in practice.
Also, how is Flynn going to win us these games when we pass the ball 10-15 times in 3 quarters. Then with 5 minutes left we decide we'll start trying to work on the passing game and do another 10 attempts.
3. In my opinion the problem is 2 things.
1- Pete Carrol's gameplan is to run the ball the entire game to control the clock and run time. The defense is supposed to hold to a low score. This doesn't work! We need to pass every single time there is single coverage/man to man on our receivers. I'm tired of seeing lynch run through 8 in the box.
2- Our receivers suck. Perhaps its that we don't pass enough so their rusty but we have no threats.
1. "We are the worst passing team"
You are interpreting this as Russell has the lowest completion percentage or something right?
We are the "worst" passing team because we PASS the FEWEST out of any NFL team.
This has nothing to do with Russell.
2. "Flynn would win us these games"
Ohh really? I like Flynn, I really do. In fact, I wanted him to start the season until he simply UNDER-PERFORMED in preseason and in practice.
Also, how is Flynn going to win us these games when we pass the ball 10-15 times in 3 quarters. Then with 5 minutes left we decide we'll start trying to work on the passing game and do another 10 attempts.
3. In my opinion the problem is 2 things.
1- Pete Carrol's gameplan is to run the ball the entire game to control the clock and run time. The defense is supposed to hold to a low score. This doesn't work! We need to pass every single time there is single coverage/man to man on our receivers. I'm tired of seeing lynch run through 8 in the box.
2- Our receivers suck. Perhaps its that we don't pass enough so their rusty but we have no threats.
DoubleG
Footballguy
Actually, one of the reason they might not pass more is because they don't think he's very good.
I own Russel in dynasty. I expected a slow start. But this is Matt Lienert-esque. He'll probabaly stay on my team for a few more weeks - but he's moved up in the "cut for upside" line. He just stepped in front of Michael Floyd.Dinkle Heimer
Footballguy
Passing the fewest times out of any NFL team has nothing to do with Wilson? 
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ImTheScientist
Footballguy
What makes you say Flynn is better? Stop being silly.
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
Whats bad about it? Just cause you say so?'Football Jones said:
bigdaddydave
Footballguy
He's not the one who decides which play to run, Pete does that right?Personally, I really think Pete thinks of a QB as a "game manager" just like Alex Smith / 49erPassing the fewest times out of any NFL team has nothing to do with Wilson?
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
That's what I thought. Absolutely nothing to say of any worth out of you.'Football Jones said:
cstu
Footballguy
I don't know why people are taking criticism of Wilson so personally. Exactly one QB under 6 feet has won a playoff game in history. It's difficult enough to be successful as a QB without adding to it by being short. Perhaps Wilson will become a good NFL QB but he's certainly fighting the odds.
drummer
Footballguy
He threw for more TD's in one game under a solid system.
Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
I am trying to make an objective decision about what has transpired. I was assuming that with Flynn's previous time served (4 years) learning the NFL game and actually practicing and playing against NFL talent that he would be better suited to start this year. Flynn was sought after by Seattle for a reason and with his previous years served it just seemed like a no brain decision to start him. I have remained firm on my stance from the start. With had has happened through the first 4 weeks of the season, it seems to be playing out as I had suspected all along. Wilson is/was not ready to be playing against NFL caliber defenses. People keep making excuses for Wilson, but at some stage will have to realize that he is a smaller qb, and was drafted in the 3rd round for a reason. These types of guys are not day 1 starters. They are projects that need time to hone their skills. Their are many times that FIRST round qb's don't need to be starting from day one. This was a case that THIRD round qb should not have been starting from day 1. I made reference that he could fall into a category similar to Colt McCoy and was laughed at. NFL is a much different game than college. It is still early into the Wislon story to know what his long term future will be in the NFL and and far too early to say I am right and you are wrong about how well he does career wise. The thing that seems to be quite clear though is Wilson should not have been the day 1 starter. You would have to agree that it appears that was a poor decision be the team.
duaneok66
Footballguy
the expectations set by LOTS of people in this thread. And if the HC was truthful, then he would admit that RW is underperforming as well.
Mario Kart
Footballguy
Seahawks are a playoff team with Wilson.
Seahawks win six games with Flynn.
Seahawks win six games with Flynn.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
I would not.
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
Please explain how it "defies logic". Throwing words on the wall and hoping they stick is meaningless without something to back it. How does it defy logic?'Football Jones said:
matttyl
Footballguy
Logic - Flynn was paid to be the starting QB of the Seahawks in 2012 and beyond (still has $2M guaranteed in 2013). Wilson was drafted in the 3rd round, and is thus getting paid less money. The "logical" thing to do is start the QB you're paying to be your starter. Logic - as a backup, Flynn is the highest paid backup QB in the league right now. That's not "logical" when you're the furthest outlier of all of the "32 backup QBs".Logic - Flynn has had NFL experience, albeit limited. He's played in, and won actual NFL games. Wilson never has. With the very, very good defense that Seattle has (3rd in yards per game allowed, 2nd in points allowed) you aren't in a position to give a rookie QB some "experience", you're in a position to "win now". If the end of the Packers game was called as it should have been (even the NFL says so), the Seattle Seahawks would be in sole possession of last place in the NFC West, not just tied for it, at 1-3. With 3 of their next 4 games on the road, and the only home game vs the best offense in the league.......there could easily be a QB change in the great Northwest this month.
Hooper31
Footballguy
I've got a lot of input on what I've seen. Will post my random thoughts when I have time. There are many story lines at work here. Trying to focus on only one of them without taking in the whole picture isn't the best way to try and understand the dynamics at work. Mostly importantly, if you don't understand they Carroll/Schneider plan for winning games it makes thing harder to understand why they are doing what they are doing.
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
1) Flynn was not paid to be the starter. PC and JS said all along that was the asking price to bring him in to compete and see what he had.2) See #1. 3) Flynn had started 2 games.... Combine college & pro experience and I would say Wilson is more experienced.There is a reason Flynn isn't starting. I find it hilarious people think you go w/ Flynn because he is more "experienced". Ya.....unfortunately it only took 3 NFL weeks for Wilson to be the more experienced starting NFL QB. He now has x2 the amount of starts Flynn has.'matttyl said:
matttyl
Footballguy
And if games were officiated properly, they'd have the same number of wins. You don't just get "experience" from starting in the games, you get experience from being in the NFL and learning everything you can. Flynn's had that opportunity being in Green Bay for the last 4 years learning from the best offense in the league over that time. Rodgers sitting on the bench for 3 years on that same team learning the ways of the NFL didn't seem to hurt him, did it? No, I'm not comparing Flynn's ability or anything of the sort to Rodgers, just their "road" to where they are now.Make no mistake about it, Flynn had FAR MORE NFL "experience" to start this season than Wilson did, and in my eyes still does. Even in his "amazing preseason" and now through 4 regular season games, Wilson still hasn't hit 200 passing yards in a game?! He's 32rd in passing yards (yeah, dead last), but he is 31st in yards per completion. You'd think with all of those short passes he'd have a high completion %. Nope, not even top 20 in the league right now! He's had more turnovers than TDs and is currently 26th in QB rating. He's suppose to be this great rushing QB, but Andrew Luck, IN ONE LESS GAME has just as many rushing yards as him. This little experiment of Pete's was fun while it lasted, but this kid isn't ready for the big time yet. Maybe let him sit on the bench for a season or two and figure the game out.If it weren't for him having the RB currently leading the NFL in rushing, he'd be leading the Seahawks to a 6 or 7 win season.
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Joe Summer
Footballguy
So far Russell has led them to 12th place in the NFC (and that's only thanks to a botched ruling). That's not a playoff team.%26%2339%3BMario%2520Kart%26%2339%3B said:
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Joe Summer
Footballguy
He's 32nd (out of 34), with a YPA of 5.9. The only two guys with a lower YPA than Wilson are Blaine Gabbert and John Skelton.This team isn't making the playoffs with a QB who only throws for 5.9 yards per attempt.'Sea%20Duck said:
lod01
Footballguy
that sure didn't work out did it. This is the 2012 Tebow thread. You are schnikes or whatever that guy's name was. You've hitched your wagon to a lemon and are trying to defend it.Great pick, fell right to a team which gives him a great chance for success. He'll end up being one of the top 2 QBs coming out of this years draft.
fridayfrenzy
Footballguy
The main issue isn't the lack of skill by RW. This offense is bad in many areas (conservative playcalling, OL woes, WRs not getting open or dropping catches, OL taking penalties) and just isn't being held back by Russell Wilson. Those calling for Flynn, either have not watched the Seahawks games, or do not know enough about Flynn. 1. Flynn relies on timing, and a WR actually being open. The WRs are not doing a very good job of creating separation, and to suggest that Flynn can put the tough throws in there with his weak arm is a bit naiive. 2. Flynn does not have the scramble ability of RW. With way the OL has been giving time to RW, Flynn would get eaten alive. I am guessing Flynn would take about 2-3 extra sacks a game than RW.3. Flynn has TWO regular season games under his belt. Do people realize that RW has now started more NFL games than Flynn has? When you add recent competitive games in there, RW has been playing high level college games for the past few seasons while Flynn has been on the bench. 4. Flynn and RW came to Seattle not knowing the system, so if Flynn was playing, don't assume Seattle would have some wide open passing offense.RW is only a rookie, and is not perfect by any means (i.e. scrambles too quickly) but the offensive woes are not entirely on his shoulders by any means.'Carter_Can_Fly said:
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i think it's funny that anybody thinks that they would drastically change the gameplan if they switched to flynn. they would still hand it off 40 times/game and throw short routes to their lousy wrs in desperation on 3rd down. it's as if you think he'd come in and throw for 500 yards and 6 td's every game. that said, i'd bet on them making a switch as soon as they go 2 under .500, at the latest. it is going to be odd seeing a rookie pulled to give a veteran a shot once the season has been lost. bass ackwards.
carroll is a terrible coach.
carroll is a terrible coach.
bonesman
Footballguy
Have you watched the games Seattle has played? You throw out all these numbers, and percentages and rankings that you got from looking at boxscores and stats... but have you looked at the player in question playing the game?
Hooper31
Footballguy
Drew Brees leads the NFL in passing yards. His team is 0-4.Alex Smith is 27th in passing yards. His team is 3-1.There is a much larger issue at work here. How does a team stay competitive every week? This is the question that Pete Carroll and John Schneider are focused on. They have a big picture plan they are focused on. They want to ensure they are in every game. They are probably not going to be blowing out anyone or getting blown out. Carroll has been preaching the exact same philosophy since he arrived. Every press conference over the past three years he keeps saying the same things.The Carroll-Schneider plan on offense:1. Control the tempo of the game.2. Possess the ball as long as possible.3. Run the ball as much as possible.4. Eliminate turnovers.The Carroll-Schneider plan on defense:5. Stop the opponents run game at all costs.6. Force the opponent into passing situations.7. Maul the opponents WRs with larger more physical CBs.8. Create turnovers with the pass rush.None of this can be really understood without examining the entire plan and understanding how all these facets work together. On both sides of the ball they are looking to physically dominate their opponent as much as they can. If you saw the SEA-DAL game you got to watch the blueprint unfold at its best, a rare blowout win.There is certainly a "today's NFL" at work in all this. The league has become predominately a passing league. I find it odd that two coaches that absolutely loathe each other have mirror image teams. Both SEA and SF are bucking the trend of throw throw throw.Now, is Wilson the right guy for Seattle? I had hopes that he was, but I have to admit I have my doubts. Whoever plays QB for Seattle will get limited opportunities to make plays. We're talking about a small hand full of opportunities. It won't matter if its Wilson or Flynn. If Flynn gets to play they won't be throwing the ball more. It will look just like it does in SF with Alex Smith. The idea is to shorten the game and make sure both teams have fewer opportunities. The team that is more disciplined and makes fewer mistakes has an edge. Just like in poker. You are going to make better decisions sometimes and lose. We saw that yesterday in STL. Seattle is a better team than STL right now, but lost. Its going to happen. Is this a good plan? I lean towards yes. There are very few elite NFL quarterbacks, and they are very hard to acquire. I'm often reminded of one of my favorite Bill Parcells quote (1-800-Quarteback). They don't grow on trees. I think the majority of teams work under the hope of getting one of them. While waiting for this savior they wallow in mediocrity. In Seattle Carroll has resigned himself to not getting one and focusing on how to win without one. As a fan, I'm on board. Will it work? Time will tell.
Joe Summer
Footballguy
Passing yards <> Yards-Per-Attempt.Look at the YPA numbers and there's a much closer correlation between YPA and wins.
Hooper31
Footballguy
As I hit "post" I thought to myself, "that was a mistake". I knew someone would focus on that one tiny piece of information and ignore the entire explanation of what is transpiring in Seattle.
Hooper31
Footballguy
Further, what you're trying to do is measure every team with the same metrics. Some teams are going in different directions with their philosophy. Its not a good idea to measure Wilson and Smith using the same passing metrics as it is for other teams. For Wilson and Smith we need to be talking about efficiency*. They aren't going to be throwing the ball down field as much. They both play in a dink and dunk offense. Its part of an overall team plan. Not just the offense.
* Note: I'm of the opinion that Wilson has not played with a high efficiency level yet. On the first drive yesterday he looked impressive, but thereafter not so much. That said he didn't get much help. Baldwin and McCoy were to blame for two of those INTs. The other was squarely on Wilson, but one is too much for this team. With their style of play they can't afford mistakes.
* Note: I'm of the opinion that Wilson has not played with a high efficiency level yet. On the first drive yesterday he looked impressive, but thereafter not so much. That said he didn't get much help. Baldwin and McCoy were to blame for two of those INTs. The other was squarely on Wilson, but one is too much for this team. With their style of play they can't afford mistakes.
BoomGoesTheDynamite
Footballguy
I'm not saying that Seattle is a playoff team but they are 2-2 and are tied for 8th in the NFC with a bunch of other teams. I assume that the Packers, Giants, Redskins, and the loser of the Cowboys/Bears game are also not a playoff team as well by this logic? Wilson hasn't been good this season but he's a rookie and for all anyone knows Flynn could have been the 2011 version of Kevin Kolb. Being on an NFL roster doesn't guarentee future success.
Neofight
Footballguy
Complete lack of understanding of the situation and ability level of each player. Henceforth we will call all comparisons of NFL starting QB's-who are disappointing the inflated and unrealistic expectations of FF geeks-to Tebow (not an NFL QB) lod01's Rule. Well done!Those stating Wilson is underprepared and/or nervous in the pocket haven't been paying close attention.that sure didn't work out did it. This is the 2012 Tebow thread. You are schnikes or whatever that guy's name was. You've hitched your wagon to a lemon and are trying to defend it.Great pick, fell right to a team which gives him a great chance for success. He'll end up being one of the top 2 QBs coming out of this years draft.
P.S. Per Carroll and those that have been reporting from practice, Flynn's elbow has him seriously limited and he "wouldn't be able to go right now."
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Donnybrook
Footballguy
Who knows what the game plan would be like if Flynn was playing? All I know was that in the preseaon games I watched the seattle offense with Flynn at the helm was very conservative as well.'Carter_Can_Fly said:
matttyl
Footballguy
Some food for thought -
2011 Tarvaris Jackson:
60.2% completion, 11.4 yards per completion, 6.86 yards per attempt, .83 turnovers per TD, 2.7 rushing yards per attempt, 79.2 QB rating (21st in NFL), .438% winning, no playoffs
2012 Russell Wilson (so far):
60.0% completion, 9.9 yards per completion, 5.94 yards per attempt, .8 turnovers per TD, 3.6 rushing yards per attempt, 73.5 QB rating (26th in NFL), .500% winning
Did he just shrink 3 inches? That outta get these Wilson backers riled up.
2011 Tarvaris Jackson:
60.2% completion, 11.4 yards per completion, 6.86 yards per attempt, .83 turnovers per TD, 2.7 rushing yards per attempt, 79.2 QB rating (21st in NFL), .438% winning, no playoffs
2012 Russell Wilson (so far):
60.0% completion, 9.9 yards per completion, 5.94 yards per attempt, .8 turnovers per TD, 3.6 rushing yards per attempt, 73.5 QB rating (26th in NFL), .500% winning
Did he just shrink 3 inches? That outta get these Wilson backers riled up.
Waverunner
Footballguy
Since when do we put so much evidence on the preseason. Wilson was great against base vanilla defenses he hasn't been able to perform against more complex defenses. I believe this means he needs more time to study defenses and learn from watching from the sidelines. He may have two recievers that have dropped the ball or slipped but in reality the ball shouldn't have went to those recievers. Here is a post showing how he is missing wide open recievers.
Wrong read
Wrong read
cstu
Footballguy
Doug Baldwin didn't have trouble getting open and catching the ball last year. What changed?
Hooper31
Footballguy
I think I know. I've listened to nearly every press conference for the past three years and keep hearing the same things over and over. This is the Seattle offense. Its not a factor of who the QB is. This is by design. Its an all encompassing philosophy. Keeping the offense on the field as long as possible to give the defense time to recover is only a small portion of the philosophy.
Pretty much. I don't think the offense will change if Flynn is the QB. That said, I'm not going to say that Flynn won't play better than Wilson.
Hooper31
Footballguy
Baldwin hasn't been healthy yet this year. I don't believe he's had even one week of continuous practice. But this is besides the point. Are we discussing Baldwin because of the one play yesterday when Wilson hit him square with a pass? The same pass that went under his left arm and squirted into the defenders arms? That's not the INT that we should be talking about. That one was on Baldwin. The one that's worth discussing is the one where Wilson was getting hit in the pocket and lobbed up an INT. This was the play that has me thinking Wilson might not be the player we hoped he was.
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
Wilson is matching tjax as a rookie through his first 4 games...not bad. Can't wait to see him grow and progress in the system.
matttyl
Footballguy
I guess you totally missed my point. Seattle apparently knew (as most NFL fans did) that they needed help at QB to help them to the next level. They get rid of T Jax, that I agree with and would have done also if given the option. They then bring in the top FA QB available (again, I agree with the move), and they draft a QB in the 3rd round (a move I also agree with, as I think he presented great value there). There was apparently a "QB competition" of sorts, one that I admittedly wasn't too interested in, that Wilson "won" (of which Flynn was hurt for much of I recall). But then when they put the guy on the field, he's used in apparently the IDENTICAL WAY that didn't work last year with the old guy. You do know Einstein's definition of insanity, right?The guy has 6 (5 legit) passes over 20 yards in 4 games, can he just see that far over his O line? Something's wrong either with him, or the system, or both, and whoever said that he would be a top 2 QB out of this draft class was just plain wrong! Whoever said that he would be better than RG3 should get their head checked.
matttyl
Footballguy
T Jax was a "rookie" in this same system last year as well, as it was his first (and last) in Seattle. "Matching" a guy who in his 5 prior years never threw for 10 TDs in a season isn't really giving the guy any credit at all.It's cool, though, Wilson won't last too long as the starter, Hawks with Pete Carroll -2012 Hawks starter - Wilson2011 Hawks starter - T Jax (no longer on team)2010 Hawks starter - Hass (no longer on team)
bigdaddydave
Footballguy
I really think its a game plan issue by JS and PC. As another poster said above me this is part of their entire philosophy.
Run ball
Control clock
This is why we'll keep seeing games won or lost by close points. This is how they want it to be!
Run ball
Control clock
This is why we'll keep seeing games won or lost by close points. This is how they want it to be!
Time Kibitzer
Footballguy
With a top 5 defense and a top 5 running game the Seahawks should be trying to win right now instead of waiting for a rookie to progress in the system, no? If Flynn is more capable right now, then he should be starting right now imo.
Hooper31
Footballguy
I think this leads to a better discussion. Is the Carroll/Schneider plan a good one? Is it a fundamentally solid premiss to begin with the idea that you won't be getting an elite QB on your roster? If you accept that premiss, how do you make your team competitive?
Joe Summer
Footballguy
If his completion % was lower than 60%, then I might blame the receivers. But the problem with Wilson is that he's NOT EVEN TRYING to throw the ball downfield!! He's always looking for his safety net. Now, maybe that's the coaching gameplan. Or maybe Wilson is just a scared rookie. Or maybe he's simply too short to see downfield.I think it's a combination of all three.
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
looks like I got you all riled up.
cstu
Footballguy
The overall plan is a good one, but starting a rookie QB is not ideal. However, Wilson did outplay Flynn in the preseason and since then Flynn has had tendinitis in his elbow so they've had no other choice to stay with Wilson. If Flynn gets healthy and Russell doesn't improve then I think they must make the switch.
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