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Are Divisions and Win/loss record obsolete? (1 Viewer)

W

wiscstlatlmia

Footballguy
It almost comes down to the logical thing to do.

Wins and losses are a fun way to keep the standings, but every year that goes by, I feel it brings an unneeded % of luck into it.

I've never played in an all-play or victory point league, but I'm starting to think that's the best way.

The best teams should get into the playoffs, plain and simple.

I may be late to the party here, my newest dynasty I joined has a nice system that I just recently found out about:

-14 teams

-6 teams make playoffs

- play everyone once

- top 4 records make the playoffs

- after those 4, the two highest scoring teams remaining earn the 'wildcard'

I've also heard people talking about victory points and all-play leagues being a much more accurate way of having the best teams make the playoffs

Most leagues I'm in and most leagues most people are in,( all yahoo,ESPN,CBS standard setup leagues) are all set up that you play people in your on division( 2 or 3) more than once and your playoff chances make or break with your win/loss record. My question (and clear opinion lol) is, is the standard and way we've always done this in need of change?

I'm wondering what your guys thoughts are and if you have found any solutions to this.

 
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We play most points win, with a modest weekly point award for head-to-head. No playoffs.

Rewards season-long performance as opposed to a hot team in the latter stages of the season.

A bit unconventional, but works for us.

 
'zamboni said:
We play most points win, with a modest weekly point award for head-to-head. No playoffs.Rewards season-long performance as opposed to a hot team in the latter stages of the season.A bit unconventional, but works for us.
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yea, this is what I'm talking about. have you found these are, more, less or the same as playing in standard win/loss record leagues?
 
My main league is a 12-teamer where 8 make the playoffs (no byes for the top seeds).

I've tried convincing the commish that this makes the entire regular season pretty much pointless, but I guess he likes it that way.

Weeks 14-16 are all that matter unless you just manage your team poorly.

We have divisions, and yeah, they're pointless too.

 
I like the traditional h2h. We give a prize for highest points so if it's one of "those" year - you still get some cash.

I also play in an all play league and find that fun but I'm not so sure it's way "less lucky".

 
In 12 team I like this format

3 divisions with each of the division winners in the playoffs and 3 wildcard teams in the playoffs based on all play. Keeps the excitement of head to head (and yes some luck), but prevents an unlucky top team or 2 from missing out on the playoffs.

 
Online leagues, I prefer total points or victory points being the way that the playoffs are determined.

In leagues with friends and people that I know in person, I still like H2H, because of the fun of weekly smack talk and bragging rights. Every so often you'll have a team that slips into the playoffs, or misses out, because of a streak of bad matchups...but it's a rarity (and it's usually the teams who are right on the border anyway).

I don't play in any leagues with divisions though. They seem completely pointless.

 
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There's something to be said about having a clear opponent on Sundays, about having not just your players to root for, but for having players to root AGAINST.

For that reason...I'd rather go pure H2H than pure all-play, but my favorite setups are the hybrids...where the top seeds are determined by record and 1 or 2 wildcards go to the top scoring teams not already in. This incorporates the best of both ideas, IMO. Unlucky teams still get in.

This is one area where you don't have to settle on one idea or the other!

 
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Divisions are pointless; leagues that still use division records as the first tiebreaker are really stupid and out of touch. Total points should always be the first tiebreaker.

Playing a total points league is obviously the most fair, but it can be boring without the weekly head to head matchups. Victory points, while also doing head to head, is the way to go. It blends everything nicely together.

 
My favorite league is a 12-team H2H, where 4 teams make the playoffs, points scored is the 1st tie-breaker, and there is a separate prize for highest regular season points.

Edit: we also split up the prize money between all the playoff teams. So while the championship (and the bragging rights) are pretty much a matter of who gets hot at the end of the season, the prizes are a bit more equitable.

The formula, for those interested (where X = league dues):

1st: 4X

2nd: 3X

3rd: 2X

4th: 1X

Highest Regular Season Points: 2X

 
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Traditional Head2Head is the best.

The best teams do not always get in because of it and that is simply the way it is.

Just like the real NFL and a garbage 7-9 team wins a division and gets in ahead of another team that may be 10-6, but gets bounced from the wild card.

Just how it goes.

 
'renesauz said:
There's something to be said for having players to root AGAINST.
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This is the WORST part about fantasy football, imo. I'm not as emotional about fantasy football as I used to be, but it sure can ruin a Monday night watching your team lose a big lead because your opponents players are blowing up. We've all been there... Don't throw it to Colston. Don't throw it to Colston. Don't throw it to Colston... GOD D*** IT! All vs All is the same as H2H except the correct teams get wins each week. I'm playing in 10 leagues this year (all H2H), so the luck is spread out more evenly, but it can be a real downer if you only play in one or two leagues. You could go years finding yourself on the wrong end of the scheduling gods. Playing in multiple leagues also makes it more difficult to root against players because so many are on my teams. I try to ignore my opponents players as much as possible each week. It makes no difference to my lineup decisions. I'm already starting to notice a clear trend across my leagues. The teams at the top of the standings GENERALLY have fewer points scored against them than the teams at the bottom. It would make an interesting statistics analysis at the end of the year if I were so inclined.
 
'Symbius said:
Traditional Head2Head is the best.The best teams do not always get in because of it and that is simply the way it is.Just like the real NFL and a garbage 7-9 team wins a division and gets in ahead of another team that may be 10-6, but gets bounced from the wild card.Just how it goes.
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Why would anyone accept this argument in a game that is supposedly a test of skill? Total points, breakdown vs. rest of league; in the long run of a season using those type of metrics will show the best teams in a league way more accurately than just relying on a random schedule. A generous weekly winner based on total points is good, for example, because the winning team beat every other team head to head that week. The majority of the annual prize going to the total points leader is also good, as it rewards the team that did the best over the entire season. I prefer leagues with those types of set-ups over your basic "winner takes all" week 14-16 division/playoff scenario anytime.
 
I do like the feeling of individual games, but do find just having 1 game a week lacking. Without that aspect of real football where you impact on what your opponent scores, you do see enough outliers in terms of records not reflecting what the team did overall that it can be frustrating.

I also am not a big fan of just using all play though. I think a happy medium is to go with triple headers each week. It fits very well with a 12 team format. Three divisions of four teams each. Every week you play 1 division team and 2 out of division teams. You can have a 12 week schedule, play your division 4 times and everyone else 3 times. And then have time for a 6-team, 3 week championship that ends on week 15 before NFL players are likely to be rested.

It hits all the high points without much downside. You have actual opponents each week, including your rivalry games that matter more to you. But not so many that it's all a mash. It has nice symmetry. You play division teams more than out of division. And it's done about the time I think the fantasy playoffs should end.

 
My main league is points for the main portion of the cash.

(and playoffs between those to get to the Superbowl)

(if you end up with the most points "guaranteed 2nd")

(there is also an H to H play with less money in it)

Another is strictly head to head, (not a fan of this type)

Another is head to head and points to get to the playoffs.

(top scorer an best record first round bye, then 2 of each)

There all 12 team leagues and half make it to the playoffs.

(2 teams first round bye)

I like the 3rd one best, top 3 records get in and the top 3

points teams get in, so the record an points means something.

(if top records are tied it goes to points between them then)

 
In one of my 12 team leagues only 4 make the playoffs. 3 division winners and one wild card. Record is first and points are the tie breaker.

When this league was 14 teams a couple of years ago (5 playoff teams) I was 3rd in total points but missed the playoffs.

 
1 division, double headers every week. H2H

gets rid of that lucky team with a winning record, and that unlucky team with a loosing record.

 
there is "luck" involved in real NFL games - so why not let it be a part of fantasy football?

this isn't chess.

 
One of my local leagues is a h2h 10 teamer with 2 divisions. We play each divisional opponent twice and the other division once. 3 teams from each division make the playoffs with div winners getting a bye. Tiie breakers is h2h, div record, then points. There is also $150 payout for winning your division.

I'd say winning a division in this league is paramount. the h2h leads to all kinds of smack talk. It might not be the fairest way, but we love it. We believe there is nothing more important than winning, we play to win the games!

 
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12 teams 3 divisions

6 make playoffs (3 division winners and 3 wild cards with best records)

Top 2 records get a BYE in the playoffs. Also "final" is two weeks.

Extra rewards :

win division

best record overall

most points overall

toughest SOS

 
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'wiscstlatlmia said:
The best teams should get into the playoffs, plain and simple.
Click to expand...
If you're using Total Points or Play All to determine the "best team" to get into the playoffs, when then are you playing H2H once you're in the playoffs? There shouldn't be "playoffs" in a Total Points league. By week 13 it's hard for any team that's out of it to make up the points anyway, just declare that the Total Points Leader after all 16 (or 17) weeks is the champ, period.

 
Our 12 team league pays money for overall points as well as playoffs, with the split being about 65-35 in favor of overall points. Everyone seems to like this set up, and it keeps more teams involved over the course of the season.

 
'wiscstlatlmia said:
It almost comes down to the logical thing to do. Wins and losses are a fun way to keep the standings, but every year that goes by, I feel it brings an unneeded % of luck into it.I've never played in an all-play or victory point league, but I'm starting to think that's the best way. The best teams should get into the playoffs, plain and simple. I may be late to the party here, my newest dynasty I joined has a nice system that I just recently found out about:-14 teams-6 teams make playoffs- play everyone once- top 4 records make the playoffs- after those 4, the two highest scoring teams remaining earn the 'wildcard'I've also heard people talking about victory points and all-play leagues being a much more accurate way of having the best teams make the playoffsMost leagues I'm in and most leagues most people are in,( all yahoo,ESPN,CBS standard setup leagues) are all set up that you play people in your on division( 2 or 3) more than once and your playoff chances make or break with your win/loss record. My question (and clear opinion lol) is, is the standard and way we've always done this in need of change? I'm wondering what your guys thoughts are and if you have found any solutions to this.
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12 team league, 3 four team divisions. each division winner based on record makes the playoffs with the team with highest opints cored not a division winner as the wild card.this way youre head to head and division is important but there is another path to the post season.
 
Different strokes for different folks... IMO, there is no one right way for fantasy football. There are pros and cons to each style.

Personally, I enjoy my 16-team league where we have four divisions. You play each division member twice and every other team once, so basically there are 13 weeks of games with five double headers on non-bye weeks. The divisions are fixed each year and it is a keeper league so teams develop rivalries within the divisions. We have 50% of the teams make the playoffs: 4 division winners, 2 wild cards, Most Points Scored, Most Points scored against (Cinderella seed).

We have a good time and we spread winnings out over each week.

 
If you have to play H2H, consider adding a w/l for performance against the weekly league average. Balances things out by giving a win for great performances that happen to go up against an even greater performance (and similarly a loss for poor performances).

Adds a new level to the competition. Every game truly does matter as each affects the average, which can move considerably on a monday night.

 
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I like the idea of H2H just to make each individual week more exciting. Although this past week I lost even though I put up the 2nd highest points in my league. That's frustrating.

 
'Sandeman said:
If you have to play H2H, consider adding a w/l for performance against the weekly league average. Balances things out by giving a win for great performances that happen to go up against an even greater performance (and similarly a loss for poor performances).Adds a new level to the competition. Every game truly does matter as each affects the average, which can move considerably on a monday night.
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Interesting concept. I like it.
 
I'd never heard of victory points until this thread. What's the benefit vs. all-play or total points?

 
'Symbius said:
Traditional Head2Head is the best.The best teams do not always get in because of it and that is simply the way it is.Just like the real NFL and a garbage 7-9 team wins a division and gets in ahead of another team that may be 10-6, but gets bounced from the wild card.Just how it goes.
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Except this is fantasy football and not the real NFL.We're currently head to head with doubleheaders each week.Will be strongly advocating an all play format next year.
 
'kegger said:
Another is head to head and points to get to the playoffs.(top scorer an best record first round bye, then 2 of each)I like the 3rd one best, top 3 records get in and the top 3 points teams get in, so the record an points means something.(if top records are tied it goes to points between them then)
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Interesting. In my 12 team, we've had an owner consistently looking to incorporate points into the playoff seeding beyond tiebreaks. I'm curious... I would assume that frequently the top 3 records and top 3 scoring teams overlap. Which takes precedence?Do you take the top 3 records, then the top 3 scorers of the remaining 9? or the other way, with the top 3 scoring teams then the best records of the remaining 9? Also, have you ever looked at how the makeup would change if you did top 6 scoring teams or top 6 records? Does this system really shift the playoff teams significantly, or does it more often shuffle the seedings and maybe the 5-8 entries?
 
It all really depends on what you're looking for in FF. Are you looking for fun, or are you looking at it as purely a way to prove that you're better at something than everyone else in the league?To each their own. If there are people out there who do this as a "job" and are throwing down $xxxx buy-ins with regularity, I can see them preferring the latter. For the rest of us that throw a couple hundred bucks at FF buy-ins every year and are looking to get added enjoyment out of it, total points leagues are a bore.

'Ghost Rider said:
Divisions are pointless; leagues that still use division records as the first tiebreaker are really stupid and out of touch. Total points should always be the first tiebreaker.Playing a total points league is obviously the most fair, but it can be boring without the weekly head to head matchups. Victory points, while also doing head to head, is the way to go. It blends everything nicely together.
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Your first and second paragraphs contradict each other. Division records are less fair, but more fun. I run a long-standing dynasty league and every time we get a replacement owner the first thing they bring up is changing the 1st tiebreaker to total points over division record, and immediately everyone shoots them down (including the most recent replacement owner who made the same suggestion when they joined). It really helps in developing rivalries and making you root extra hard on those weeks where you play another good team in your division. Obviously there's no getting up for a game and playing harder like you could in the actual NFL, but rooting for an even more important game is more fun and has lead to some great, friendly rivalries. I actually proposed re-arranging the divisions next year to our league in order to shake things up a bit, and everyone was universally against it because they were enjoying the rivalries they've already developed so much.
 
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'Road Warriors said:
'kegger said:
Another is head to head and points to get to the playoffs.(top scorer an best record first round bye, then 2 of each)I like the 3rd one best, top 3 records get in and the top 3 points teams get in, so the record an points means something.(if top records are tied it goes to points between them then)
Click to expand...
Interesting. In my 12 team, we've had an owner consistently looking to incorporate points into the playoff seeding beyond tiebreaks. I'm curious... I would assume that frequently the top 3 records and top 3 scoring teams overlap. Which takes precedence?Do you take the top 3 records, then the top 3 scorers of the remaining 9? or the other way, with the top 3 scoring teams then the best records of the remaining 9? Also, have you ever looked at how the makeup would change if you did top 6 scoring teams or top 6 records? Does this system really shift the playoff teams significantly, or does it more often shuffle the seedings and maybe the 5-8 entries?
Click to expand...
Top 3 records get in and then top 3 scorers of the remaining teams.
 
'Rick James said:
'Sandeman said:
If you have to play H2H, consider adding a w/l for performance against the weekly league average. Balances things out by giving a win for great performances that happen to go up against an even greater performance (and similarly a loss for poor performances).Adds a new level to the competition. Every game truly does matter as each affects the average, which can move considerably on a monday night.
Click to expand...
Interesting concept. I like it.
Click to expand...
We're in our third year of doing it this way (league started in 1996). It's been a huge success.
 
'Grace Under Pressure said:
'Symbius said:
Traditional Head2Head is the best.The best teams do not always get in because of it and that is simply the way it is.Just like the real NFL and a garbage 7-9 team wins a division and gets in ahead of another team that may be 10-6, but gets bounced from the wild card.Just how it goes.
Click to expand...
Why would anyone accept this argument in a game that is supposedly a test of skill?
Click to expand...
The NFL seems to be OK with it.
 
As much as I don't like the crap-shoot that is the Fantasy playoffs in a H2H format, I have to say I really don't see a point in all-play. To me, that would be like Rotisserie baseball and i could put my team together in August and ignore it, since there would be no opponent to follow, etc. To me, rooting against a team is half of the equation (rooting FOR your own team being the other).

I think, like most things in life, the best answer is to not fall into an extreme and, instead, find a compromise. I play in one large 16 team league where we:

-Doubleheaders each week

-divisions

-Highest points of non-divisional winner determines one of the wildcards

-Playoffs are a round robin of all-play

Just mixing it up to get a taste of it all kind of steers away from ever relying on just one aspect.

 
'Sandeman said:
'Rick James said:
'Sandeman said:
If you have to play H2H, consider adding a w/l for performance against the weekly league average. Balances things out by giving a win for great performances that happen to go up against an even greater performance (and similarly a loss for poor performances).Adds a new level to the competition. Every game truly does matter as each affects the average, which can move considerably on a monday night.
Click to expand...
Interesting concept. I like it.
Click to expand...
We're in our third year of doing it this way (league started in 1996). It's been a huge success.
Click to expand...
so each game is worth 2 "games"? 2-0, 1-1, 1-0-1 etc ?
 
'belljr said:
'Sandeman said:
'Rick James said:
'Sandeman said:
If you have to play H2H, consider adding a w/l for performance against the weekly league average. Balances things out by giving a win for great performances that happen to go up against an even greater performance (and similarly a loss for poor performances).Adds a new level to the competition. Every game truly does matter as each affects the average, which can move considerably on a monday night.
Click to expand...
Interesting concept. I like it.
Click to expand...
We're in our third year of doing it this way (league started in 1996). It's been a huge success.
Click to expand...
so each game is worth 2 "games"? 2-0, 1-1, 1-0-1 etc ?
Click to expand...
Exactly, although we've never had a tie so it's 2-0, 1-1 or 0-2. Commish sets up two opponents every week: the H2H and the League Average.Then after 14 weeks, the top four teams on record make the playoffs. The playoffs are not H2H. Each team's playoff performance is based on three scores:Weekly average for weeks 1-14 PLUS Week 15 performance PLUS Week 16 performance. The teams are then ranked based on the sum of their performances to determine first, second, third.
 
Divisions and H2H, while not exactly fair, seem to liven up leagues more than total points or all play. To make divisions more fair, schedule the first 3 and last 3 weeks as division games. There will be no byes to deal with, meaning less luck involved, and hopefully leading to more legit division winners.

Having said that, I do like all play as determining wild cards. I don't really see why anyone would choose total points over all play. There can be some teams throughout the season that score insane amounts of points in a few weeks which could carry them over more consistent teams. Saying you can beat more teams each week vs. scoring more points in a season is definitely more brag worthy. Consistency should be rewarded, and that's why all play trumps total points IMO.

 
'FreeBaGeL said:
To each their own. If there are people out there who do this as a "job" and are throwing down $xxxx buy-ins with regularity, I can see them preferring the latter. For the rest of us that throw a couple hundred bucks at FF buy-ins every year and are looking to get added enjoyment out of it, total points leagues are a bore.
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Again, agreed.
 
'Shutout said:
As much as I don't like the crap-shoot that is the Fantasy playoffs in a H2H format, I have to say I really don't see a point in all-play. To me, that would be like Rotisserie baseball and i could put my team together in August and ignore it, since there would be no opponent to follow, etc. To me, rooting against a team is half of the equation (rooting FOR your own team being the other).

I think, like most things in life, the best answer is to not fall into an extreme and, instead, find a compromise. I play in one large 16 team league where we:

-Doubleheaders each week

-divisions

-Highest points of non-divisional winner determines one of the wildcards

-Playoffs are a round robin of all-play

Just mixing it up to get a taste of it all kind of steers away from ever relying on just one aspect.
Click to expand...
Agree here, as well. I'm in a 16 teamer that shuffles divisions each year according to win/loss records. We have a reward for high points at the end of the year that's almost as much as if you win the championship. It's a keeper league, though, so a lot of the skill each year comes into play in the offseason, as well. The real coup de gras, though, is to win the Title and the points championship. More money - more bragging rights - more #### talking to the other owners.I love high points but I'd never let the H2H go, either. There's nothing like playing a fellow owner in a long standing keeper/dynasty league that you know oh so well.

 
My now 12th year Re-Draft league tried switching to Victory Points in 07. It was met with resounding hatred and general boredom. Nobody liked it, we shelved it, and also found that in that year (and the preceding year and following year) that the 4 Playoff teams would've been the same with or without victory points.

There are times, like this year, when I have to watch my division leader running away with a 5-0 record and allowing the fewest Points Against that it is frustrating and I long for something more "fair" but then I remember that boring year in 07, and remember that a huge part of what we're doing here is luck (guessing who will score on Sundays?) so there isn't really any reason to attempt to "take luck out of it."

It's just part of the game, is I guess what I'm saying.

We still have Three 4 Team Divisions, with top team in each division plus one wildcard making the playoffs, as we have since 2001. It's tried and tested, and works for us.

We did add in a Total Points crown (25% of the pot) last year, and I really like that change. It tallies all the way through Week 17, so gives non-playoff owners an incentive to keep at it.

 
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