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Tannehill's upside (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter yankdog
- Start date
Not entirely, that is why they will need to add competition for sure. Vikings gave up a 1st rounder last year and didn't make the playoffs. I don't think Miami could get anyone for that price to move the needle significantly.
shadyridr
Footballguy
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
If worst case scenario is confirmed and Tannehill is done, and the Dolphins bring in Cutler over Kaepernick, the hot take needle is going to go to 110.
Hankmoody
Footballguy
And Ross was very supportive of the players who wanted to take the knee last year:
Dolphins defensive back Michael Thomas told Hal Habib of the Palm Beach Post that Ross made it clear to them before that game against the Seahawks that taking a stand by taking a knee was fine.
Thomas said after explaining his concerns to Ross, the owner replied: “I’ve got y’all’s back 100 percent.”
“I remember that like it was yesterday,” Thomas said. “With everything racing through our minds, trying to decide if that was something we would actually go through with, of taking a knee, . . . September 11th — that’s a whole different aspect.
“I saw Mr. Ross come in the locker room. I’m going up to him, trying to explain to him in a way, letting him know, like, ‘Look, we’re thinking about doing this, thinking about taking a knee.’ And for him to stop me and say, ‘Look, Mike, whatever y’all choose to do today, I’ve got y’all’s back 100 percent’ — that’s a testament to what type of person he is, how he truly feels about equality for all, and the efforts he’s made with the RISE program. It’s great to have the owner of the Dolphins have that perspective.
“It’d be great to see more owners take after him.”
The RISE program (the Ross Initiative in Sports for Equality) was founded by the owner in 2015 to use his sports platform for social causes.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/04/04/dolphins-owner-stephen-ross-gave-players-the-ok-to-take-a-knee/
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I'm not sure about that. It isn't like Tannehill is a great QB. Matt Moore may be just as average.
I agree. If there was one situation where the starting QB went down and there was no drop off in value of the passing game, this is probably it.
Tannehill is a average starter at most and Moore has been with the team for 6 years and knows the system. Not like a rookie or someone who just came in from another team and will require a limited playbbok
Snorkelson
Footballguy
Starting qb injured, feed the rb. I wouldn't downgrade ajayi because of this.
I think the problem with Kaep in Miami is the comments he made about Castro. Not sure a lot of the Cubans living in Miami will welcome him with open arms.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I don't think there is any room for them to increase the run to pass ratio from last year. Under normal circumstances sure thats a pretty reasonable expectation, but they were already doing that last year.
Ajayi wasn't made the starter until the Dolphins 5th game of the season. He only had 18 rushing attempts in the first 4 games (one of which he didn't even suit up). The Dolphins were passing the ball about 35 times per game those first four weeks, then only averaged 30 pass attempts per game for the rest of the season.
Jay Ajayi had 309 rushing attempts last season including the playoff game. So 258 rushing attempts after he was made the starter in game 5 vs the Titans, this is an average of 19.9 attempts per game, which would pace to 317 rushing attempts over 16 games.
Hard to see him being used any more than this under any circumstance although I do think he will get more opportunity as a receiver this year than last and reports have been talking about that being a focus.
The Dolphins ran the fewest number of offensive plays last year, something I expect to change, but Tannehill missing any time would likely lead to a more conservative approach again, which would mainly hurt the receivers more than Jays opportunities.
I think we agree about the status of RT not affecting Jay Ajayi's opportunity, I just don't think there is any room for them to actually run the ball more.
As far as the Dolphins bringing in Cutler, that seems unlikely as I was listening to Gase talk about how Cutler is going to see and know everything they are doing in games when/if Cutler covers them. Cutler got a job as a color commentator with Fox sports for the upcoming season. Fox covers NFC games, so not sure he would be covering many Dolphins games.
I guess Cutler hasn't filed retirement papers though and according to this he is open to returning to football if the right situation presented itself (such as playing for Gase)
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Aznflyer14
Footballguy
If Tannehill indeed does elect a season-ending injury, I'm betting HC Adam Gase would make a speed dial to Jay Cutler to bring him out of retirement.
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
Theres no way that knee makes it through a season if its already buckling the first week of training camp
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
Blurb on roto world saying Cutler is interested in Dolphins as long as he's starter and gets starter money for the season.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
ESPN reporting Tannehill most likely needs season ending surgery but may try to see if he can wait 6-8 weeks to see if he can play without it.
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/20241193/ryan-tannehill-miami-dolphins-now-feared-need-surgery-knee
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/20241193/ryan-tannehill-miami-dolphins-now-feared-need-surgery-knee
I'm thinking Cutler may have to get in shape pretty fast if he wants the job:
Jay Cutler is body-shamed after his wife Kristin Cavallari posts 'unflattering' shot of their Mexican vacation
Jay Cutler is body-shamed after his wife Kristin Cavallari posts 'unflattering' shot of their Mexican vacation
stp-d
Footballguy
Moore will be the man now, but of course they will need to bring in some depth behind Moore.
beerbuff
Footballguy
None. They aren't going to trade them in their own division. I'd say the heavy favor for the job has to be Cutler, 70-80% chance.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Matt Moore in relief of Tannehill was actually putting up better numbers than RT was last season.stp-d said:
18 attempts 12 completions 236 yards 4 TD 1 interception in his first full game. Likely could have done more but they had such a lead by that point it wasn't necessary.
30 attempts 16 completions 233 yards 2 TD 1 interception in his second game. Ajayi ran for 200 yards against Buffalo again although this was a close game.
34 attempts 24 completions 205 yards 2 TD 1 interception in his 3rd game vs the Patriots. Not that great but also not terrible considering the opponent. Tannehill did put up better numbers in chase situation against the Patriots week two of the season.
36 attempts 29 completions 289 yards 1 TD 1 interception in his 4th game in the playoffs vs the Steelers. He was sacked 5 times in this game losing 36 yards and had only been sacked once in the previous 3 games.
In some ways Moore may have been better than Tannehill. The interceptions are still too frequent though.
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
So what do you do with him now in dynasty? Let him burn a spot on your roster, or just cut him outright? Does he even have the upside to make it worth carrying him for a season if you have 25 or less total roster spots? I can IR him for $25, but even that may not be worth it in a 1 QB league.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I think that is a difficult question to answer right now.
This injury might serve as a get out of jail free card for Gase and the Miami front office to move on from Tannehill.
While RT will likely get another shot, as teams are so hungry for QBs. If Cutler and Moore play better than RT has, the starting job in Miami might not be assured. I believe the Dolphins could use cap space and cutting or trading RT might be a way to do that.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I believe RT's contract he signed in 2015 guaranteed his first four seasons. If that is accurate, the Fins would have to pay him $17.5 million next year even if they wanted to move on to someone else. Maybe a Miami fan would have a better read on his contract status. They might draft someone, but I don't see them paying two established guys starter money.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
$25 real money? FAAB money?
I'd IR him if feasible/allowable. If I couldn't I wouldn't really shed any tears.
Todem
Footballguy
I doubt it.
His hard cap number if cut next season is 4.6 or 4.8MM forgot which one.
They are moving on IMO. It's over.
I am baffled though at the mis-management of his injury. He could have had surgery last season the week it happened and been back here at least early to the mid part of the season 100%. Instead RT and the training staff allow it to heal on it's own, he is playing in a brace and boom, unstable knee to begin with and a new tear (actually probably it was still torn slightly and it tore even more). This is how you handle a guy whose cap number this season is north of 20MM?
Freaking Dolphins. This is why we have been in the ***t house for so long now.
If we have a disastrous season we will have a high draft pick to try and hit on a new "Franchise QB". Tannehill's days as a starter in this league are over.
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Hawkeye21
Footballguy
One of the reporters from Miami was on The Score and said he believes the Dolphins really like Tannehill and thought they would most likely keep rolling with him.
Hankmoody
Footballguy
He will absolutely get another shot. The post you quoted and bolded didn't say it had to be with Miami. Someone will roll the dice. They always do. Brian Hoyer, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Tom Savage, Mike Glennon - if those guys are starting games, Tannehill will be too.
Todem
Footballguy
Fair enough. It is a QB starved league.
But he has shown what he is. An average starting QB in the league. Which is the norm for most teams. And in fairness to Ryan...he had to learn new offenses what....3 times. That does make it tough. But he is a lousy downfield passer. And in a passing league if you can't get the ball downfield more consistently you are going to be stuck in the mud on offense. And that is exactly what the Dolphins have been for a long while now. Stuck in the mud.
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Todem
Footballguy
Well...he is the best QB on the roster. But I believe Gase will want to marry a QB of his choosing. We will see next year at the draft.
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Biabreakable
Footballguy
Maybe Tannehill doesn't get another shot with the Dolphins. My comment was meant that if the Dolphins do move on from him, that some other team will sign him and he will get another shot to start that way. Maybe you are right that he wouldn't just be handed the starting job by another team, he would need to earn it. Remains to be seen though. I am pretty sure a team will sign him, even if it is only as a backup.Todem said:
Cutlers deal is only for one season. Always possible they keep Tannehill as well. I just think they have seen enough of Tannehill by now to know he isn't the answer. So perhaps this event opens the door for them to move on, while also saving face a bit by having this excuse to use instead of admitting that RT was never really all that good.
I agree the management of the injury seems strange. I suppose there are examples of players not getting surgery and their injuries fully heal without it. From my perspective you get the treatment you need then rehab so you will be ready for the following season instead of just putting it off and then having a relapse of the injury later (which is what happened).
I don't want to go all tinfoil hat about this, but it seems like a convenient excuse to exit stage left, still get paid and to not have further playing time subjected to scrutiny. I can't speculate on the intentions or reasoning to forego surgery. It just obviously doesn't seem like a good idea in hindsight. I know from a personal experience that I had surgery to ensure I would be ready for upcoming deployment. If this surgery had been delayed then maybe I wouldn't have been ready to go.. I had been dealing with the same injury for 3 years before being offered surgery however, so no doubt in my mind that I needed it. I am not sure what the Dolphins doctors advice for Tannehill and the team were in regards to this. It just doesn't seem like it was managed properly and I am not sure if that was by mutual agreement or if it was more RT or the Dolphins front office pushing for RT to hold off from having the surgery done and just hope it would heal on its own.
I am optimistic about Cutler but I guess we will see how that works out. If they win a lot of games again, it will make it harder for them to land a top QB through the draft. That is kind of where they have been with Tannehill, QB purgatory, winning enough that the team cannot draft the QB they need but not good enough to really challenge in the playoffs. Gase is just doing whatever he can to win games, which is his job. From a macro view this might end up preventing them from drafting a better solution.
As a Viking fan I went through similar thing losing Bridgewater during training camp. At least the Dolphins haven't given up a 1st round pick to bring in Cutler. It could be worse. From what I have been reading Gase and Cutler have a friendship that extended from 2015 and that they have been keeping in touch. I think this could end up turning out well, or at least not any worse than playing Tannehill for most of the 2017 season.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I would likely prepare for some games where Cutler throws interceptions. Just hopefully not more than Matt Moore would.
Cutler has a really good arm and can makes some throws that a lot of QB can't, but that Cutler also shouldn't. When he is on he is pretty good though.
Cutler has a really good arm and can makes some throws that a lot of QB can't, but that Cutler also shouldn't. When he is on he is pretty good though.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Schefter: Cleveland received trade offer for Brock Osweiler
I thought this was interesting as Schefter is saying the Dolphins inquired about trading for Brock Osweiller and that they wanted Cleveland to eat half of his cap number for this year as part of the deal (I guess somehow they can do this?) the price for Cleveland eating that much of his salary was draft picks, and more draft picks than Miami wanted to give for him, so they took another route.
As I said it could have been worse.
I thought this was interesting as Schefter is saying the Dolphins inquired about trading for Brock Osweiller and that they wanted Cleveland to eat half of his cap number for this year as part of the deal (I guess somehow they can do this?) the price for Cleveland eating that much of his salary was draft picks, and more draft picks than Miami wanted to give for him, so they took another route.
As I said it could have been worse.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Rotoworld still reporting that Tannehill's contract is guaranteed for 2018.
"Ryan Tannehill's ACL operation will take place on Thursday.
Tannehill will require 10-12 months of rehab. Now 29 and coming off two ACL injuries in eight months, Tannehill is due a guaranteed $17.47 million in 2018."
This article claims he is guaranteed $16.5 million for 2018.
This article makes it sound like Miami would be on the hook for $5.5 million for 2018.
This one states that Tannehill's contract would be guaranteed for $18 million on the 5th day of the new season in 2018 (which would be in March) . . . with injury clauses, so I do not believe they could just cut him.
So I am still trying to figure out if the Dolphins will have to hold on to him and pay him for 2018, as there does not seem to be a consensus on what his contract status and language is.
"Ryan Tannehill's ACL operation will take place on Thursday.
Tannehill will require 10-12 months of rehab. Now 29 and coming off two ACL injuries in eight months, Tannehill is due a guaranteed $17.47 million in 2018."
This article claims he is guaranteed $16.5 million for 2018.
This article makes it sound like Miami would be on the hook for $5.5 million for 2018.
This one states that Tannehill's contract would be guaranteed for $18 million on the 5th day of the new season in 2018 (which would be in March) . . . with injury clauses, so I do not believe they could just cut him.
So I am still trying to figure out if the Dolphins will have to hold on to him and pay him for 2018, as there does not seem to be a consensus on what his contract status and language is.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I am not sure how the injury would have any effect on the contract? Possible it does and things like injury guarantees can be built into a contract I believe.
@Hankmoody you seem to be pretty aware of contract details and whatnot. Any thoughts about this?
The articles you posted are from 2015 around the time the deal was fresh. I posted the sportrac numbers earlier in the thread, here that is again.
According to this the Dolphins could release him before the official start of the new year (sometime in March I think) and he would have a dead cap hit of $4.6 million but it would still save them $13 million in total cap space.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I was not trying to single you out, but I bring this stuff up because I simply don't know or fully understand how it all works. I believe teams can't cut a player that is injured or on I.R. I think they would need to agree on an injury settlement first. Teams can cut a player once they get medical clearance to play (see Ryan Mathews this week as an example . . . or Kaepernick sticking with the 49ers). And who knows what fine print and injury guarantees there are from deal to deal.
But if Tannehill has the surgery and won't be cleared by March (probably a sure bet on that), I wonder if the Dolphins would be stuck paying him no matter what.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
That I don't know and I am somewhat curious as well.
Possible they are still on the hook?
If so that adds another wrinkle in regards to Tannehill delaying having surgery earlier.
Hankmoody
Footballguy
First article was written the day the contract was signed. It's likely that was based on speculation or word of mouth regarding the details, that happens frequently. The real numbers usually aren't available for a couple of days while the NFL is reviewing/approving the contracts and news outlets don't let a silly thing like accuracy get in the way of deadlines. OTC and Sportstrac concur with the Grantland article that only $5.5M is guaranteed, and only on the 5th day of the league year, meaning they could release him and be freed of that.
I think the 3rd article is both being misconstrued and incorrect. "Beyond the 2017 portion of the contract the only guarantee built in to the deal is 5.525 million of his 2018 salary that becomes fully guaranteed in case of an injury on the fifth day of the 2018 season. By this point the Dolphins will have long since decided that they will continue on the same course with Tannehill as their man or would have cut bait." I think the word "fully" is being used superfluously thus confusing this, and they mean that $5.52 of it is guaranteed in the case of injury, but I also think the "in case of injury" part is incorrect - it's guaranteed on Day 5 regardless of injury.
Bottom line I trust Sportstrac to be fully accurate at this point, they are pulling directly from some kind of API from the NFL.
Contract Notes:
$21.5M initially guaranteed, $23.5M guaranteed for injury initially
$3.5M of his 2017 salary fully guarantees on 3/13/2016
Remaining $14.475M 2017 salary becomes fully guaranteed on 3/13/2017
$5.525M of 2018 salary fully guarantees on 5th league day of 2018
Any time a guy is hurt but a team wants to release them to free up a spot on the 90 or whatever it's typical they reach some kind of settlement, and if you pay attention to the details you'll occasionally hear "released with Injury settlement/designation" or something to that effect. That settlement can be anything the two sides agree on, usually it's some % of the year's salary (frequently all of it if a good relationship). Sometimes it's less though, because the player is eager to get released fast so he can try to catch on with another team. I even recall a guy a year or two ago accept a non-settlement release because he was on IR but felt like he could play, and the team wasn't going to use their IR return on him. So he agreed to be released for free, hoping to catch on with someone else (he was). I'll see if I can remember who.
I think the 3rd article is both being misconstrued and incorrect. "Beyond the 2017 portion of the contract the only guarantee built in to the deal is 5.525 million of his 2018 salary that becomes fully guaranteed in case of an injury on the fifth day of the 2018 season. By this point the Dolphins will have long since decided that they will continue on the same course with Tannehill as their man or would have cut bait." I think the word "fully" is being used superfluously thus confusing this, and they mean that $5.52 of it is guaranteed in the case of injury, but I also think the "in case of injury" part is incorrect - it's guaranteed on Day 5 regardless of injury.
Bottom line I trust Sportstrac to be fully accurate at this point, they are pulling directly from some kind of API from the NFL.
Contract Notes:
$21.5M initially guaranteed, $23.5M guaranteed for injury initially
$3.5M of his 2017 salary fully guarantees on 3/13/2016
Remaining $14.475M 2017 salary becomes fully guaranteed on 3/13/2017
$5.525M of 2018 salary fully guarantees on 5th league day of 2018
This is also correct. If Tannehill is unable to pass a physical in March everything changes. That's why Philly waited until now to release Ryan Matthews, and it's why Buffalo shut down Tyrod Taylor last year, they didn't want to risk not being able to cut him before that balloon payment was due. Miami might just have to eat that $5.5M if Tannehill's not cleared by then (5th day of league year).
Any time a guy is hurt but a team wants to release them to free up a spot on the 90 or whatever it's typical they reach some kind of settlement, and if you pay attention to the details you'll occasionally hear "released with Injury settlement/designation" or something to that effect. That settlement can be anything the two sides agree on, usually it's some % of the year's salary (frequently all of it if a good relationship). Sometimes it's less though, because the player is eager to get released fast so he can try to catch on with another team. I even recall a guy a year or two ago accept a non-settlement release because he was on IR but felt like he could play, and the team wasn't going to use their IR return on him. So he agreed to be released for free, hoping to catch on with someone else (he was). I'll see if I can remember who.
