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2 minutes ago, Milkman said:

That's just semantics though right? I said they were screwing Bell. You said "lol he was the highest paid RB that year". You know both of those statements can be true at the same time right?

Okay.  I interpreted "refused to pay him" as he was being underpaid.  My mistake.

Screwing is in the eyes of the beholder.   My guess is the Steelers considered Bell's demands of $17 million as being screwy when no other running back in the NFL was making any close to that.

 

 

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No skin in this game (not a Steelers fan, barely own Bell/Conner anywhere).... I have no problem whatsoever with what he did.  I'm glad he did it.  He didn't "holdout".  He wasn't under contract.

Oh yeah. Now I remember why I avoided this thread for ONE HUNDRED FIFTY EIGHT pages.

DeAngelo Williams 2015 7 games as starter: 876YFS / 27rec / 8TDs James Conner in 3 games this year: 342YFS / 15rec / 3TD Of course Bell is a better back than DW or JC is.  But, ignoring

4 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

Okay.  I interpreted "refused to pay him" as he was being underpaid.  My mistake.

Screwing is in the eyes of the beholder.   My guess is the Steelers considered Bell's demands of $17 million as being screwy when no other running back in the NFL was making any close to that.

 

 

Sorry forgot i said that fair enough. My point still stands he can be the highest paid RB on a one year deal and still be getting screwed. 

 

I agree Bell is to blame for this too with the missed drug tests and suspensions. He deserved a better offer than he got though. He didn't deserve an offer that asked him to take a pay cut. That's where my issue with the Steelers is. If they felt he deserved to be disrespected like that then they should have just released him. Then everybody is happy and the Steelers are closer to a SB this year. 

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26 minutes ago, Bayhawks said:

You're trying to move the goal posts again.  The Steelers were "screwing" Bell by refusing to offer him the same type of guaranteed money at signing that other RBs of his caliber received.  They offered him less than 1/2 the guaranteed at signing money as what Gurley and DJ got this year, and only a little over 1/2 the guaranteed at signing money that Freeman got last year.

And, BTW-he was the highest paid RB (in single year salary, not guaranteed $$) one year, not twice.

 

 

Sure sure, throw 40 mil guaranteed at a 2 time drug offender & dope who skipped walk through before playoff game. I'm glad you're not Steelers front office

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1 hour ago, Steelers4Life said:

Time will tell.  I don't expect it to reach that point. But if he sits all year and the tag for next year remains $14.5 million, there would be no incentive for the Steelers to handle the situation differently.  They can tag him and tell Bell that if he wants to play or get paid this year, the only way he can do that is by signing the tender so the Steelers can trade him prior to July 16th. Bell would get his long term deal, the Steelers would get compensation and the ability to spend money elsewhere.  The Steelers would be crazy to just let him walk like that.

If Bell were to refuse to sign again, he'd be in this exact same situation, making a fraction of what he might be able to elsewhere... and if he'd wait until after July 16th again, he'd be unable to look for a long term deal until he's 28.  

It's never going to get to that point.

Logically that is the best for both parties, but it gets to a point both sides are so mad that anything could happen. Let's hope it doesn't come to that. 

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4 hours ago, Milkman said:

He would have never survived another 400 touch season. He just got unlucky getting drafted by the Steelers. 

Im not as sure about that.  Even LeVeon said that he did not take "that" much abuse because of his running style.  At least before the current contract posturing where he is now saving his body.. 

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2 hours ago, Godsbrother said:

The Steelers were gambling that Bell wouldn't walk away from $14.5 million and report by week 1.  They were wrong but at least I understand their rationale.

Bell knew full well the Steelers weren't just going to let him walk without any compensation.  If he wasn't going to agree to the Steelers offer and wasn't going to sign the tender then he should have asked to work out a long term deal with another team so a trade could be made before July 16 deadline.   Now there really isn't anything either side can do.  I suppoe

I am pretty sure that had Bell signed the franchise tag on July 16th he would have been the highest paid RB at that time.  No one knew about the Gurley or DJ deals on July 16

But he didn't.  I'm pretty sure if the Steelers had offered him $30M guaranteed, he'd be playing for the Steelers right now, but they didn't.  He was the highest paid RB, in annual salary (not guarantees, which is what really matters), for ONE year.

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1 hour ago, irish eyes said:

Sure sure, throw 40 mil guaranteed at a 2 time drug offender & dope who skipped walk through before playoff game. I'm glad you're not Steelers front office

Changing the goal posts again, huh?  Where did the $40M come from?

Pitt's front office sure has done a great job this year, haven't they?  Giant reach in round 1, the D is worse than before, and they are operating at a $14.5M salary cap deficit compared to the other NFL teams.

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1 hour ago, gethugefast1 said:

Time heals all wounds

Money heals all wounds in the NFL. I doubt it happens, but the Steelers could Transition Tag Bell next year. That gives them the option to match any contract offer he gets. If that happens and he signs a higher contract with whatever guarantees are associated with that, both the team and player would move forward together. There have been plenty of players who held out, got paid, and came back to work. (I know he's not "holding out" just an easier term)

That said, I wouldn't be surprised at all no matter what happens anymore, except if the Steelers traded him to an AFC rival, that would surprise me. 

Also, a lot of people are saying that because the reported Bell contract was $10 mil guaranteed that he would only get $10 mil for the first year. That's probably not true. It's more likely that the $10 mil was the signing bonus, so he'd get $2 mil from the bonus, plus whatever base salary, plus the $8 mil rest of the bonus that would be spread as a cap hit over the next 4 years. It's more likely that his salary for this year would be equal to or greater than the Franchise tag. Even if his base salary for this year was set to be only $6 million, that still means that he's getting $16 mil this year. 

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7 minutes ago, Bayhawks said:

Changing the goal posts again, huh?  Where did the $40M come from?

Pitt's front office sure has done a great job this year, haven't they?  Giant reach in round 1, the D is worse than before, and they are operating at a $14.5M salary cap deficit compared to the other NFL teams.

30 mil or 40 mil guaranteed, whatever. Thats what every Bell supporter including you say he deserves. 30 or 40 it doesn't matter, why would they give either amount to a 2 time druggie and pregame playoff no show. You side stepped the entire point. 

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40 minutes ago, irish eyes said:

30 mil or 40 mil guaranteed, whatever. Thats what every Bell supporter including you say he deserves. 30 or 40 it doesn't matter, why would they give either amount to a 2 time druggie and pregame playoff no show. You side stepped the entire point. 

No, I didn't.  That's been answered many times in this thread.

He's one of the top 3 RBs in the NFL.  Even if you want to ding him for his suspensions and missed practice (maybe a fine, like they did with AB), that would suggest a drop perhaps from $25M guaranteed to $20M, not to the $10M they offered him.

And speaking of side-stepping an entire point, I responded to your insult with a question that you ignored.  Do you think Pitt's front office has done a good job this year?  And if so, how?

 

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8 minutes ago, Bayhawks said:

No, I didn't.  That's been answered many times in this thread.

He's one of the top 3 RBs in the NFL.  Even if you want to ding him for his suspensions and missed practice (maybe a fine, like they did with AB), that would suggest a drop perhaps from $25M guaranteed to $20M, not to the $10M they offered him.

And speaking of side-stepping an entire point, I responded to your insult with a question that you ignored.  Do you think Pitt's front office has done a good job this year?  And if so, how?

 

So where does Connor rank, do the Steelers have two Top 5 RBs?  Maybe they don't have two Top 5 RBs, maybe they just have a great offense. I'm sure you've run the numbers, but right now James is on pace for 1,800 YFS and 16 TDs.  

You can make the argument that Bell's a Top 3 back, but your argument that the PS should have paid him still makes no sense when you look at Connor's stats.  The PS FO look like geniuses for getting that much production for pennies on the dollar compared to Bell's demands.

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18 minutes ago, Bayhawks said:

No, I didn't.  That's been answered many times in this thread.

He's one of the top 3 RBs in the NFL.  Even if you want to ding him for his suspensions and missed practice (maybe a fine, like they did with AB), that would suggest a drop perhaps from $25M guaranteed to $20M, not to the $10M they offered him.

And speaking of side-stepping an entire point, I responded to your insult with a question that you ignored.  Do you think Pitt's front office has done a good job this year?  And if so, how?

 

I wasn't aware I insulted you, unless you mean when I said I was as glad you weren't in the Steelers front office. But have they done a good job, I wouldn't say so. They mistakenly thought Bell would show up, but they made up for it by not giving into a ridiculous guaranteed contract they would have regretted.

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3 minutes ago, Buttonhook said:

So where does Connor rank, do the Steelers have two Top 5 RBs?  Maybe they don't have two Top 5 RBs, maybe they just have a great offense. I'm sure you've run the numbers, but right now James is on pace for 1,800 YFS and 16 TDs.  

You can make the argument that Bell's a Top 3 back, but your argument that the PS should have paid him still makes no sense when you look at Connor's stats.  The PS FO look like geniuses for getting that much production for pennies on the dollar compared to Bell's demands.

Seriously?  A guy has one good game, and that somehow puts him on equal footing with one of the universally recognized top RBs in the game?

Conner's games this year:

31 rush/135 rush yards/2 rush TD/5 rec/ 57 rec yards-GREAT GAME

8 rush/17 rush yards/1 rush TD/5 rec/48 rec yards-BAD GAME

15 rush/ 61 rush yards/0 rush TD/ 5 rec/34 rec yards-AVERAGE GAME  **until the last drive, where Pitt was killing the clock, Conner had 10 rush for 12 yards**

That's just foolish.  Following that premise, Pitt should cut AB, as they'll save $39M against the cap over the next 3 years, and Smith-Shuster is just as good as him (better, even?) since he's had a couple of good games.

SMH:rolleyes:

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10 minutes ago, irish eyes said:

I wasn't aware I insulted you, unless you mean when I said I was as glad you weren't in the Steelers front office. But have they done a good job, I wouldn't say so. They mistakenly thought Bell would show up, but they made up for it by not giving into a ridiculous guaranteed contract they would have regretted.

So, you're OK with your team (I assume you're a fan) having to try to compete this year with a cap that is $14.5M less than any other team, just to "not give in?"

OK.

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2 hours ago, Hairy Snowman said:

Im not as sure about that.  Even LeVeon said that he did not take "that" much abuse because of his running style.  At least before the current contract posturing where he is now saving his body.. 

Have you seen him play? Sorry no offense but yeah he takes a beating. 

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18 minutes ago, Bayhawks said:

So, you're OK with your team (I assume you're a fan) having to try to compete this year with a cap that is $14.5M less than any other team, just to "not give in?"

OK.

After the 2017 season I think most Steelers fans figured that Bell would be gone.   We had a pretty good feel the Steelers would never pay the $17 million/year Bell was asking for, let alone the guaranteed amount and frankly we didn't think that any RB was worth even the $14.5 million/year he would make under the franchise tag.  When you factor the cap hit of Ben, Bell, AB, and that O-line there just isn't enough being spread to the defense.

So we aren't happy the Steelers are down $14.5 million to a player that isn't even on the team.  However we are glad that the Steelers won't be saddled with Bell's cap hit next year.   Bell is a great RB but frankly the team has bigger needs on defense and I would rather them spend the money they would have given to Bell on the defensive side

 

ETA:  AB's cap number goes to 22 million next year so that is a huge jump from 2018 that needs to be considered.

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24 minutes ago, Milkman said:

Have you seen him play? Sorry no offense but yeah he takes a beating. 

Come on man. I get there is contact.  But I see him inflict much more than he takes.  

Ever try to break a board (or a log) with a leg or arm and not go through?  Going through doesn't hurt much at all.  It is when you get stumped.  I don't see him take many of those hits.  He is too aware,

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25 minutes ago, Hairy Snowman said:

Come on man. I get there is contact.  But I see him inflict much more than he takes.  

Ever try to break a board (or a log) with a leg or arm and not go through?  Going through doesn't hurt much at all.  It is when you get stumped.  I don't see him take many of those hits.  He is too aware,

If you say so. 

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1 minute ago, Hairy Snowman said:

Now you are being passive aggressive.  Just an opinion bud.  I will let you know when I can see the future. ;) 

Well since you can determine the difference in damage done to people being hit and doing the hitting nothing would surprise me at this point. 

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46 minutes ago, Bayhawks said:

Seriously?  A guy has one good game, and that somehow puts him on equal footing with one of the universally recognized top RBs in the game?

Conner's games this year:

31 rush/135 rush yards/2 rush TD/5 rec/ 57 rec yards-GREAT GAME

8 rush/17 rush yards/1 rush TD/5 rec/48 rec yards-BAD GAME

15 rush/ 61 rush yards/0 rush TD/ 5 rec/34 rec yards-AVERAGE GAME  **until the last drive, where Pitt was killing the clock, Conner had 10 rush for 12 yards**

That's just foolish.  Following that premise, Pitt should cut AB, as they'll save $39M against the cap over the next 3 years, and Smith-Shuster is just as good as him (better, even?) since he's had a couple of good games.

SMH:rolleyes:

Let's stick to discussing Bell, nice try though.

You can try to classify Connor's individual games all you want, but the FACTS show that Connor has significantly better overall stats in his first three weeks than Bell's first three games of 2017.  That doesn't make Connor better than Bell, but it emphasizes the impact the PS offense has on the overall success of their backs.  You seem to be ignoring this point while anointing Bell "a Top 3 RB." 

I'll gladly eat crow and admit that Bell is way better than Conner (and a Top 3 back) when he gets 2,000 YFS and 14 TDs playing on the Jets or Titans next year.

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10 minutes ago, Buttonhook said:

Let's stick to discussing Bell, nice try though.

You can try to classify Connor's individual games all you want, but the FACTS show that Connor has significantly better overall stats in his first three weeks than Bell's first three games of 2017.  That doesn't make Connor better than Bell, but it emphasizes the impact the PS offense has on the overall success of their backs.  You seem to be ignoring this point while anointing Bell "a Top 3 RB." 

I'll gladly eat crow and admit that Bell is way better than Conner (and a Top 3 back) when he gets 2,000 YFS and 14 TDs playing on the Jets or Titans next year.

Wait, so YOU bring up Conner, then say “let’s stick to talking about Bell?”  

There’s no point in discussing this with you; your belief that Conner is as good as Bell because he had 1 good game is ridiculous.  I’ll gladly eat crow and admit Conner is as good as Bell when he puts up 3 years with 1800+ YFS.

:lmao:

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5 hours ago, Bayhawks said:

You're trying to move the goal posts again.  The Steelers were "screwing" Bell by refusing to offer him the same type of guaranteed money at signing that other RBs of his caliber received.  They offered him less than 1/2 the guaranteed at signing money as what Gurley and DJ got this year, and only a little over 1/2 the guaranteed at signing money that Freeman got last year.

And, BTW-he was the highest paid RB (in single year salary, not guaranteed $$) one year, not twice.

 

 

hindsight vision is awesome, isn't it/

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Conner isn't as good as Bell.

But as good as Bell is, I don't think Bell will be as good when hes on an offense without a QB like Ben, a stud WR commanding extra coverage, and normally a really good 2nd and often 3rd WR too.  Let's not act like Bell hasn't benefited from being surrounded by very explosive talent.  That's not to say Bell wasn't part of the reason it was good, because he was, but its also why Conner can step in and be so good himself. 

Stick Bell on an offense like the Jets and I would expect a significant drop off in his production.  And that's gotta be part of the reason that the Steelers don't feel hes worth what he wanted. 

 

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1 hour ago, Hairy Snowman said:

Come on man. I get there is contact.  But I see him inflict much more than he takes.  

Ever try to break a board (or a log) with a leg or arm and not go through?  Going through doesn't hurt much at all.  It is when you get stumped.  I don't see him take many of those hits.  He is too aware,

Do you see him breaking defenders in half? I don't, he takes more punishment than any running back in the NFL just based on the volume the Steelers give him. 

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8 minutes ago, Steelers4Life said:

Conner isn't as good as Bell.

But as good as Bell is, I don't think Bell will be as good when hes on an offense without a QB like Ben, a stud WR commanding extra coverage, and normally a really good 2nd and often 3rd WR too.  Let's not act like Bell hasn't benefited from being surrounded by very explosive talent.  That's not to say Bell wasn't part of the reason it was good, because he was, but its also why Conner can step in and be so good himself. 

Stick Bell on an offense like the Jets and I would expect a significant drop off in his production.  And that's gotta be part of the reason that the Steelers don't feel hes worth what he wanted. 

 

No running back is. Look at Gurley 2 years ago. Anyone can be shut down if they have bad coaching and a lack of talent. 

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1 hour ago, Bayhawks said:

Wait, so YOU bring up Conner, then say “let’s stick to talking about Bell?”  

There’s no point in discussing this with you; your belief that Conner is as good as Bell because he had 1 good game is ridiculous.  I’ll gladly eat crow and admit Conner is as good as Bell when he puts up 3 years with 1800+ YFS.

:lmao:

Correct.  Hard to have discussions with people who don't read what's written. 

1 hour ago, Buttonhook said:

That doesn't make Connor better than Bell 

 

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7 minutes ago, Buttonhook said:

Correct.  Hard to have discussions with people who don't read what's written. 

 

Agreed, it is hard.  

I said “your belief that Conner is as good as Bell,” you quoted yourself saying “that doesn’t make Conner better than Bell.”  I didn’t say you viewed Conner as better, I said you viewed them as equals.

Good Day.

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4 hours ago, Buttonhook said:

So where does Connor rank,

A solid backup/passable starter RB.  

Stats are the silliest argument you can make here against Bell.  Conner can't be Bell.  Teams don't respect Conner.  Conner is the reason AB is slumping  - they can double AB and put an LB on Conner.. they can play 2 deep, etc..  The team is worse without Bell.

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26 minutes ago, matuski said:

A solid backup/passable starter RB.  

Stats are the silliest argument you can make here against Bell.  Conner can't be Bell.  Teams don't respect Conner.  Conner is the reason AB is slumping  - they can double AB and put an LB on Conner.. they can play 2 deep, etc..  The team is worse without Bell.

That's simply not true.  JuJu is the reason Brown is "slumping."  He's gone from a devloping rookie into a bona fide stud WR himself and has the trust of Ben in big situations, and Brown is no longer the 1st and 2nd option on every pass play.

Again, doesn't mean Conner is as good as Bell, but the offense doesn't look a whole lot different.  Conner doesn't split out wide like Bell did, but the offense has been anything but a problem.

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5 minutes ago, Steelers4Life said:

That's simply not true.  JuJu is the reason Brown is "slumping."  He's gone from a devloping rookie into a bona fide stud WR himself and has the trust of Ben in big situations, and Brown is no longer the 1st and 2nd option on every pass play.

Again, doesn't mean Conner is as good as Bell, but the offense doesn't look a whole lot different.  Conner doesn't split out wide like Bell did, but the offense has been anything but a problem.

While you are correct, the game film shows a lot of attention paid to AB, not as much to Conner.  If JJSS continues to play well, D’s might have to choose to respect him more, as they used to have to do for Bell. For now, however, game pass film shows D’s focusing on AB more than Conner. That is at least part of the reason he’s not performing up to his usual standards.

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10 minutes ago, Steelers4Life said:

That's simply not true.  JuJu is the reason Brown is "slumping."  He's gone from a devloping rookie into a bona fide stud WR himself and has the trust of Ben in big situations, and Brown is no longer the 1st and 2nd option on every pass play.

Again, doesn't mean Conner is as good as Bell, but the offense doesn't look a whole lot different.  Conner doesn't split out wide like Bell did, but the offense has been anything but a problem.

The film simply disagrees with you.

 

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Just now, matuski said:

The film simply diagrees with you.

Not based on everything I've seen, read and heard, but it's not worth debating.  With or without Bell, its a dynamic offense capable of winning a Super Bowl.  The defense is what will cost them that chance, not Bell's absense.

Brown has seen double teams for a long time, whether Bell has been there or not.  The difference this year is that JuJu is getting almost 10 targets per game and the ball isnt being force fed to Brown quite as much.  

There's no doubt that Bell is bigger threat than Conner.  Doesn't mean its had a huge impact on the offense.

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3 minutes ago, Steelers4Life said:

Not based on everything I've seen, read and heard, but it's not worth debating.  With or without Bell, its a dynamic offense capable of winning a Super Bowl.  The defense is what will cost them that chance, not Bell's absense.

Brown has seen double teams for a long time, whether Bell has been there or not.  The difference this year is that JuJu is getting almost 10 targets per game and the ball isnt being force fed to Brown quite as much.  

There's no doubt that Bell is bigger threat than Conner.  Doesn't mean its had a huge impact on the offense.

It isn't even a debate.

No Bell, teams can focus on AB.  Really isn't something to argue.

Conner has been covered by a LB. :shrug:

Juju is indeed better, but that isn't the difference on offense.  Arguing Bell's absence hasn't had a huge impact on the offense is just a weird position to take.

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Just now, matuski said:

It isn't even a debate.

No Bell, teams can focus on AB.  Really isn't something to argue.

Conner has been covered by a LB. :shrug:

Juju is indeed better, but that isn't the difference on offense.

Thats the point.. There hasn't been much of a difference.  Bell was always covered by a linebacker unless he lined up out wide.  Sometimes a safety.  Almost never a corner.  The difference isnt who covers Conner, it's that Bell is more of a mismatch.  

And that speaks volumes to what the drop off from Bell to Conner is and how much impact he has.  Theres some.  But not a lot.

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1 minute ago, matuski said:

I just noticed this back and forth was with an alias with steelers in their name.

Sucks Bell isn't there.. I don't blame you for trying to justify it away.

I'm not trying to justify anything away, and I'm pretty realistic about what Bell is and isn't and what the team is and isn't.  My opinions on it are throughout the last dozen pages or so.  You might try watching the team play regularly before judging what's happening and what's not and how it compares to before.  

I wish Bell was there, but the team doesn't miss him as much as his fantasy owners wish they do.  Missing him has an impact, but not enough of one that itll change the team's fortunes this year.

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7 minutes ago, Franknbeans said:

So the fact that they have historically scored more points without Bell is an aberration?

Its not worth it.  People who dont watch the team every week or only care about his fantasy stats will see what they want to see, whether it's actually there or not.

Bell is a great player.  But the Steelers dont need him to have a great offense.

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23 minutes ago, Franknbeans said:

So the fact that they have historically scored more points without Bell is an aberration?

It's hardly surprising they've been forced to pass a lot more without having their elite running back chewing up yards and time. They are forced into shootouts faster than they would be otherwise. 

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1 hour ago, matuski said:

Arguing Bell's absence hasn't had a huge impact on the offense is just a weird position to take.

 

DeAngelo Williams 2015 7 games as starter:
876YFS / 27rec / 8TDs

James Conner in 3 games this year:
342YFS / 15rec / 3TD

Of course Bell is a better back than DW or JC is.  But, ignoring the success that the Steelers have had at RB without Bell in recent history is the weird position to be standing on .

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