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No skin in this game (not a Steelers fan, barely own Bell/Conner anywhere).... I have no problem whatsoever with what he did.  I'm glad he did it.  He didn't "holdout".  He wasn't under contract.

Oh yeah. Now I remember why I avoided this thread for ONE HUNDRED FIFTY EIGHT pages.

DeAngelo Williams 2015 7 games as starter: 876YFS / 27rec / 8TDs James Conner in 3 games this year: 342YFS / 15rec / 3TD Of course Bell is a better back than DW or JC is.  But, ignoring

Just now, ghostguy123 said:

Are you being stupid on purpose?  I really hope so.

Same question. 

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1 minute ago, fightingillini said:

If that's true, then it was indeed a crap deal.

I correct my previous thought.  

I am on my phone, but I will try to search it later. It was in the thread started by Joe Bryant about how much should Bell be paid. 

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4 minutes ago, ghostguy123 said:

From a risk/reward perspective, I think it makes the most sense for him to play.  Hell, he might get lucky and break his wrist like David Johnson, get his 15 million this year, then get paid next offseason.

Or he could get unlucky and blow out his Achilles and never be the same RB again.

And not get paid except for this year's franchise tender.

 

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1 minute ago, ghostguy123 said:

Maybe a little, but you have massively trumped me.

I know what is in your head, it isn't possible to trump you. 

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Just now, fightingillini said:

Or he could get unlucky and blow out his Achilles and never be the same RB again.

And not get paid except for this year's franchise tender.

 

That could also happen when he comes back and plays this year, then he is out 9 million AND a future deal

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Just now, fightingillini said:

Or he could get unlucky and blow out his Achilles and never be the same RB again.

And not get paid except for this year's franchise tender.

 

That's why he skipped the banana with the Cheerios this morning.  Banana peels are very dangerous when you're not under contract.

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Just now, ghostguy123 said:

I can't compete with your troll job.  You win. 

Not trolling, just not trying to mislead everyone with made up scenarios about Bell sitting out playoff games and acting like I know what Bell is planning. 

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Just now, msudaisy26 said:

Not trolling, just not trying to mislead everyone with made up scenarios about Bell sitting out playoff games and acting like I know what Bell is planning. 

I did not say that is what he was planning.  At all. But go ahead and think I did.  You are on a roll.  

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4 minutes ago, msudaisy26 said:

Not trolling, just not trying to mislead everyone with made up scenarios about Bell sitting out playoff games and acting like I know what Bell is planning. 

That’s the schtick. 

Also putting words in people’s mouths & propping up straw-man arguments/misstate 

Better to just put on ignore. Then you’ll only see quoted posts like I just did with yours. ;) 

 

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29 minutes ago, fightingillini said:

I thought it was 33 million in guarantees.  That's still a lot of coin for a RB.   But it is much less than what Gurley got in guaranteed money......45 million.

It turns out it was $33 million in "rolling guarantees", which is just a fancy way of putting the word guarantee next to something without actually guaranteeing it.  Only $10 million was actually fully guaranteed.  The rest came via a roster bonus in year two that he could be cut ahead of.  IE not guaranteed.

This is why it was obvious that Pitt was just trying to sway public opinion.  They conveniently leaked only parts of the offer ($70 million!  $33 million guaranteed!) while leaving out important details like the above.

https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2018/7/18/17585956/leveon-bell-contract-steelers-offer-guaranteed-money-free-agency

So in reality the fully guaranteed money in the offer was actually $4 million LESS than he gets guaranteed by just signing the franchise tag, which is a laughable joke.  The whole point in locking yourself into long term deals with big guarantees is to protect yourself against injury, but if Bell tore his achilles this year Pitt could cut him and he would actually end up with less money than if he just signed the franchise tender and then tore his achilles.

Really, even if the $33 million were an actual real guarantee he'd still probably be better off declining it.  You to remember the franchise tender is already worth $14 million guaranteed, so you have to compare it to that.  Even at $33 million guaranteed it's still only $19 million more than he gets guaranteed from the tag anyway.  Even if he tore his ACL this year he'd probably get more than $19mil guaranteed in a new contract on the open market next year which combined with this year's franchise tag would get him that $33 million guaranteed anyway, and of course he stands to make a whole lot more on the open market if he stays healthy.

At his age a 5 year deal would be essentially the last deal of Bell's career.  Even at $33 million guaranteed it makes little sense as he'll make that guaranteed over the next two years anyway even if he gets hurt.  So why lock himself out of a huge deal on the open market next year for no gain in return?

Given that the actual number was $10 million and not $33 million, it just changes it from "probably not smart" to "so laughably terrible that they can't have even expected him to ever entertain it".

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The more I read about this, the more I think Bell will be missing some time this season. He has a valid argument and he may just be willing to miss a few game checks to point out the inequity of the the franchise tag. I’d be upset as well if I was being asked to put my long term health both physically and financially on the line in exchange for a single season of paychecks.

I think it’s likely that Bell is attempting to get himself traded.

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24 minutes ago, FreeBaGeL said:

It turns out it was $33 million in "rolling guarantees", which is just a fancy way of putting the word guarantee next to something without actually guaranteeing it.  Only $10 million was actually fully guaranteed.  The rest came via a roster bonus in year two that he could be cut ahead of.  IE not guaranteed.

This is why it was obvious that Pitt was just trying to sway public opinion.  They conveniently leaked only parts of the offer ($70 million!  $33 million guaranteed!) while leaving out important details like the above.

https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2018/7/18/17585956/leveon-bell-contract-steelers-offer-guaranteed-money-free-agency

So in reality the fully guaranteed money in the offer was actually $4 million LESS than he gets guaranteed by just signing the franchise tag, which is a laughable joke.  The whole point in locking yourself into long term deals with big guarantees is to protect yourself against injury, but if Bell tore his achilles this year Pitt could cut him and he would actually end up with less money than if he just signed the franchise tender and then tore his achilles.

Really, even if the $33 million were an actual real guarantee he'd still probably be better off declining it.  You to remember the franchise tender is already worth $14 million guaranteed, so you have to compare it to that.  Even at $33 million guaranteed it's still only $19 million more than he gets guaranteed from the tag anyway.  Even if he tore his ACL this year he'd probably get more than $19mil guaranteed in a new contract on the open market next year which combined with this year's franchise tag would get him that $33 million guaranteed anyway, and of course he stands to make a whole lot more on the open market if he stays healthy.

At his age a 5 year deal would be essentially the last deal of Bell's career.  Even at $33 million guaranteed it makes little sense as he'll make that guaranteed over the next two years anyway even if he gets hurt.  So why lock himself out of a huge deal on the open market next year for no gain in return?

Given that the actual number was $10 million and not $33 million, it just changes it from "probably not smart" to "so laughably terrible that they can't have even expected him to ever entertain it".

Thanks.  Wasn't aware of the rolling guarantee.  That is a crap deal. 

 

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32 minutes ago, FreeBaGeL said:

It turns out it was $33 million in "rolling guarantees", which is just a fancy way of putting the word guarantee next to something without actually guaranteeing it.  Only $10 million was actually fully guaranteed.  The rest came via a roster bonus in year two that he could be cut ahead of.  IE not guaranteed.

This is why it was obvious that Pitt was just trying to sway public opinion.  They conveniently leaked only parts of the offer ($70 million!  $33 million guaranteed!) while leaving out important details like the above.

https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2018/7/18/17585956/leveon-bell-contract-steelers-offer-guaranteed-money-free-agency

So in reality the fully guaranteed money in the offer was actually $4 million LESS than he gets guaranteed by just signing the franchise tag, which is a laughable joke.  The whole point in locking yourself into long term deals with big guarantees is to protect yourself against injury, but if Bell tore his achilles this year Pitt could cut him and he would actually end up with less money than if he just signed the franchise tender and then tore his achilles.

Really, even if the $33 million were an actual real guarantee he'd still probably be better off declining it.  You to remember the franchise tender is already worth $14 million guaranteed, so you have to compare it to that.  Even at $33 million guaranteed it's still only $19 million more than he gets guaranteed from the tag anyway.  Even if he tore his ACL this year he'd probably get more than $19mil guaranteed in a new contract on the open market next year which combined with this year's franchise tag would get him that $33 million guaranteed anyway, and of course he stands to make a whole lot more on the open market if he stays healthy.

At his age a 5 year deal would be essentially the last deal of Bell's career.  Even at $33 million guaranteed it makes little sense as he'll make that guaranteed over the next two years anyway even if he gets hurt.  So why lock himself out of a huge deal on the open market next year for no gain in return?

Given that the actual number was $10 million and not $33 million, it just changes it from "probably not smart" to "so laughably terrible that they can't have even expected him to ever entertain it".

You act as if that article is the gospel truth

 

 

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4 minutes ago, menobrown said:

 

You act as if that article is the gospel truth

 

 

Maybe it’s not, but Pittsburgh has not denied one bit of it.  You’d think if it was inaccurate, they’d say so, especially since they had no problem letting the original report leak out.

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Just now, Underachievers said:

Rumor now has it that he is preparing to sit out this season.

I can’t see that happening.  If he sits out the season, he won’t be a FA next year.  If he reports for 6 games, he will (unless Pitt franchises him a 3rd time for close to $25M).

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Just now, Bayhawks said:

Maybe it’s not, but Pittsburgh has not denied one bit of it.  You’d think if it was inaccurate, they’d say so, especially since they had no problem letting the original report leak out.

No I would not in anyway expect the Steelers to validate a report on contract negotiations nor can I recall them ever addressing a report such as this or ever publicly discussing contract numbers. Now if the player or his agent publicly said false numbers then maybe the Steelers might set the record straight so on that note has Bell or his agent verified any of these numbers? I'm thinking no.

 

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14 minutes ago, menobrown said:

No I would not in anyway expect the Steelers to validate a report on contract negotiations nor can I recall them ever addressing a report such as this or ever publicly discussing contract numbers. Now if the player or his agent publicly said false numbers then maybe the Steelers might set the record straight so on that note has Bell or his agent verified any of these numbers? I'm thinking no.

 

Where do you think Rapaport got the initial $70M offer numbers from?  Two sides knew of the offer; Bell turned it down-it would make no sense to leak those details while leaving out the fact that there was only $10M in real guaranteed money.  So it had to come from the Steelers.  And, Bell’s agent did verify that the reason Bell didn’t sign the contract is because there was no guaranteed money after year one. According to your previous post, the Steelers would correct a player/agent putting out false info, yet they have not done so, therefore it stands to reason that his agent (and this article) is accurate.

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1 hour ago, Saboo said:

The more I read about this, the more I think Bell will be missing some time this season. He has a valid argument and he may just be willing to miss a few game checks to point out the inequity of the the franchise tag. I’d be upset as well if I was being asked to put my long term health both physically and financially on the line in exchange for a single season of paychecks.

I think it’s likely that Bell is attempting to get himself traded.

As a bell & conner owner, i will 100% welcome a bell trade ASAP 

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21 minutes ago, Bayhawks said:

I can’t see that happening.  If he sits out the season, he won’t be a FA next year.  If he reports for 6 games, he will (unless Pitt franchises him a 3rd time for close to $25M).

You are probably right.   It's just a rumor I was trying to get started.

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42 minutes ago, menobrown said:

You act as if that article is the gospel truth

What does the article have to do with anything?  The important part is the tweet where Rappaport admits that the fully guaranteed part was actually only $10m, which also falls in line with what Bell's agent said a few days later that the guaranteed money was poor.

I just figured of all the articles that contained the tweet I'd give this guy the link hit since he was one of the early ones to see through the illusion from Pitt.  But the article really just conceptualizes the same points that several of us were making in the Le'Veon contract thread before this article even came out.  Go back and read through the thread and you'll see I was suspicious of the initial report all along while Rappaport was using phrases like "as I understand it" and "rolling guarantee" even before it came out that the full guarantee was only $10m.  It was always a sham.

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7 minutes ago, Bayhawks said:

Where do you think Rapaport got the initial $70M offer numbers from?  Two sides knew of the offer; Bell turned it down-it would make no sense to leak those details while leaving out the fact that there was only $10M in real guaranteed money.  So it had to come from the Steelers.  And, Bell’s agent did verify that the reason Bell didn’t sign the contract is because there was no guaranteed money after year one. According to your previous post, the Steelers would correct a player/agent putting out false info, yet they have not done so, therefore it stands to reason that his agent (and this article) is accurate.

I have no idea where Raparport got he his info but let's not pretend he is always accurate either.

Of course both sides knew the offers, does not mean the media knows the offers.  Just a bunch of conjecture.

Can you cite me where Bell's agent said there are no guarantees past year one? Because if not there is nothing for the Steelers to confirm or deny and I'm guessing there is not anything you can find to back up this claim.

 

 

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Just now, FreeBaGeL said:

What does the article have to do with anything?  The important part is the tweet where Rappaport admits that the fully guaranteed part was actually only $10m, which also falls in line with what Bell's agent said a few days later that the guaranteed money was poor.

I just figured of all the articles that contained the tweet I'd give this guy the link hit since he was one of the early ones to see through the illusion from Pitt.  But the article really just conceptualizes the same points that several of us were making in the Le'Veon contract thread before this article even came out.  Go back and read through the thread and you'll see I was suspicious of the initial report all along while Rappaport was using phrases like "as I understand it" and "rolling guarantee" even before it came out that the full guarantee was only $10m.

Rap's tweet is part of the basis of the article. I don't buy his tweet "reporting" as gospel.

I firmly believe they had good negotiations and just fell short on a deal. That they could not work out a deal and does not mean the offer to him was some some kind off lowball guarantees to the point it would be offensive and the numbers suggested in that article are offensive. In the end what they offered Bell while not agreeable was not offensive either.

Recall when the expiration occurred the relationship between Bell and the Steelers seemed solid. He tweeted out some stuff about looking forward to next year.  It sure did not sound to me like the negotiations were contentious or insulting and again the guaranteed numbers in that article are in fact a bit insulting and that's why I don't believe we have the full details. And that is all I have to say on this, I just don't think we have the full and accurate details.

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5 minutes ago, menobrown said:

I have no idea where Raparport got he his info but let's not pretend he is always accurate either.

Of course both sides knew the offers, does not mean the media knows the offers.  Just a bunch of conjecture.

Can you cite me where Bell's agent said there are no guarantees past year one? Because if not there is nothing for the Steelers to confirm or deny and I'm guessing there is not anything you can find to back up this claim.

 

 

Bell’s agent said this during a Sirius radio interview in July; the 19th, I believe.

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3 minutes ago, menobrown said:

I have no idea where Raparport got he his info but let's not pretend he is always accurate either.

Of course both sides knew the offers, does not mean the media knows the offers.  Just a bunch of conjecture.

Can you cite me where Bell's agent said there are no guarantees past year one? Because if not there is nothing for the Steelers to confirm or deny and I'm guessing there is not anything you can find to back up this claim.

I know this wasn't directed at me but while I don't think the agent necessarily specified how the guarantees broke down year to year, he did say basically the same thing we're all saying here (and were saying even before this report came out), that the Steelers were playing shenanigans with fake guarantee structures.

“The Steelers have a unique way of structuring deals,” Bakari said. “These contracts are not fully guaranteed. Le’Veon plays a position that has one of the shortest lifespans in the league. We have to focus on the guarantee. It’s safe to say he’ll get a guarantee [as a free agent] that is more traditional, and he’ll be protected for the balance of his career.”

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/07/17/Le-Veon-Bell-Adisa-Bakari-Steelers-franchise-tag-running-back/stories/201807170123

 

There is also this report that stipulates that Pitt's unique contract structure only actually fully guarantees the signing bonus, and the signing bonus on this offer was reported as $10m.

"The structure of the offer was a big obstacle that couldn't be overcome. This is because Pittsburgh contracts typically have a vanilla structure. With the exception of quarterback Ben Roethlisberger, the only guaranteed money in Pittsburgh deals is a signing bonus. Roethlisberger's base-salary guarantees are for injury only. The bigger deals contain a third- or fifth-day-of-the-league-year roster bonus in the second and third years. The roster bonuses are supposed to be substitutes for additional contract guarantees. The overall guarantees in Pittsburgh contracts are usually less than comparable deals to those of other teams.

Bell's reported $10 million signing bonus seems low by Pittsburgh standards. Brown received a $19 million signing bonus, which is his only true guaranteed money. His deal also had $6 million and $2.5 million fifth-day-of-the-league-year roster bonuses in 2018 and 2019. The $10 million-per-year extension All-Pro guard David DeCastrosigned right before the start of the 2016 regular season had $16 million treated as signing bonus under the salary cap."

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/agents-take-why-there-isnt-a-new-leveon-bell-deal-and-what-comes-next-for-him/

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2 minutes ago, menobrown said:

Rap's tweet is part of the basis of the article. I don't buy his tweet "reporting" as gospel.

Fair enough.  Regardless the whole basis for the original discussion was that Bell was crazy to turn down the offer that Rap reported, and now that we know the full details of the offer Rap was reporting he was clearly not crazy to turn that down if that was in fact the deal.  You're right that we can't verify the accuracy of Rap's report.

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1 minute ago, Bayhawks said:

He can’t be traded; he’s not under contract.

Was Mack?

 

2 minutes ago, FreeBaGeL said:

I know this wasn't directed at me but while I don't think the agent necessarily specified how the guarantees broke down year to year, he did say basically the same thing we're all saying here (and were saying even before this report came out), that the Steelers were playing shenanigans with fake guarantee structures.

“The Steelers have a unique way of structuring deals,” Bakari said. “These contracts are not fully guaranteed. Le’Veon plays a position that has one of the shortest lifespans in the league. We have to focus on the guarantee. It’s safe to say he’ll get a guarantee [as a free agent] that is more traditional, and he’ll be protected for the balance of his career.”

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/07/17/Le-Veon-Bell-Adisa-Bakari-Steelers-franchise-tag-running-back/stories/201807170123

 

There is also this report that stipulates that Pitt's unique contract structure only actually fully guarantees the signing bonus, and the signing bonus on this offer was reported as $10m.

"The structure of the offer was a big obstacle that couldn't be overcome. This is because Pittsburgh contracts typically have a vanilla structure. With the exception of quarterback Ben Roethlisberger, the only guaranteed money in Pittsburgh deals is a signing bonus. Roethlisberger's base-salary guarantees are for injury only. The bigger deals contain a third- or fifth-day-of-the-league-year roster bonus in the second and third years. The roster bonuses are supposed to be substitutes for additional contract guarantees. The overall guarantees in Pittsburgh contracts are usually less than comparable deals to those of other teams.

Bell's reported $10 million signing bonus seems low by Pittsburgh standards. Brown received a $19 million signing bonus, which is his only true guaranteed money. His deal also had $6 million and $2.5 million fifth-day-of-the-league-year roster bonuses in 2018 and 2019. The $10 million-per-year extension All-Pro guard David DeCastrosigned right before the start of the 2016 regular season had $16 million treated as signing bonus under the salary cap."

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/agents-take-why-there-isnt-a-new-leveon-bell-deal-and-what-comes-next-for-him/

Thanks and  I see no place where his agent said no guarantees existed in year two. All I'm seeing is not enough guarantees or fully guaranteed and of course that's the reason he did not sign.  If they tried to insult him wtih a $10M signing bonus when he was already guaranteed almost $15M I'd find that offer insulting and I don't think the negotiations went that direction.

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16 minutes ago, menobrown said:

Can you cite me where Bell's agent said there are no guarantees past year one? Because if not there is nothing for the Steelers to confirm or deny and I'm guessing there is not anything you can find to back up this claim.

 

Here is the quote Bayhawks was alluding to about the agent saying nothing is guaranteed after the first year.  He does also say that Rap's report was false.  This was before the $10mil part came out so hard to tell if that's what he's alluding to (IE it wasn't really $33mil guaranteed) or if more of it than just that was false.

The most important element of it is the guarantee,” Bakari said. “You couple that with the traditional way in which Pittsburgh does it’s deals, which, at the end of the day, nothing’s guaranteed after the first year.”

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/07/17/agent-reported-offer-to-leveon-bell-not-accurate-but-its-about-guarantee-anyway/

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1 minute ago, FreeBaGeL said:

Fair enough.  Regardless the whole basis for the original discussion was that Bell was crazy to turn down the offer thate accuracy of Rap' Rap reported, and now that we know the full details of the offer Rap was reporting he was clearly not crazy to turn that down if that was in fact the deal.  You're right that we can't verify ths report.

I continue to say we don't know the full details, we only know what Rap is reporting.

Even if they guaranteed him $30M in true guarantees I though he was correct to turn down the offer, said so at the time.  He can beat that next year when you add in the guarantee he gets this year.

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