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2 hours ago, irish eyes said:

OMG why would the Steelers ever put this bozo on the field.  Did none of you read his idiot agents comments? He is not going to put out any kind of effort.  Screw this this clown, and if any of you believe he will give full effort,  you are dumber than his agent.

I'm thinking you are a little overly invested in this personally?  My goodness.

Agents are there to guide the players to maximize their income (both for the player and themselves).  FA '19 is Bell's last best chance to do exactly this.

Bell didn't make the game he is playing... it isn't his fault the system tells him to survive at all cost until '19 for his payday.

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No skin in this game (not a Steelers fan, barely own Bell/Conner anywhere).... I have no problem whatsoever with what he did.  I'm glad he did it.  He didn't "holdout".  He wasn't under contract.

Oh yeah. Now I remember why I avoided this thread for ONE HUNDRED FIFTY EIGHT pages.

DeAngelo Williams 2015 7 games as starter: 876YFS / 27rec / 8TDs James Conner in 3 games this year: 342YFS / 15rec / 3TD Of course Bell is a better back than DW or JC is.  But, ignoring

3 hours ago, irish eyes said:

I hope this moron sits until week 10, loses 10 million dollars, then they bury his ### on the bench. Then he signs  with a bottom dweller (which he will) and is never heard from again.

He definitely looks weak. Like a whiny little brat who wants to throw a tantrum but will ultimately lose in the end. 

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5 hours ago, irish eyes said:

I hope this moron sits until week 10, loses 10 million dollars, then they bury his ### on the bench. Then he signs  with a bottom dweller (which he will) and is never heard from again.

Bell would love that outcome. You think it would hurt him to sign his tender, work out with the team and put no wear on his body? He'd probably love that.

If put in a game, he'd give full effort. Dogging it can lead to injuries, because the defense isn't dogging it. And he doesn't need bad stats and game film with him looking old and slow. He'd go all out if his number is called imo. And I think Pittsburgh will be happy to use him once he signs.

 

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7 hours ago, Slapdash said:

 

22 hours ago, Snotbubbles said:

But they won.  

No.  They tied to a team that won one out of their last 32 games..

 

He was talking about last year, apparently believing that despite the fact that Bell was awful against Cleveland, he was the reason they won.

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12 hours ago, Neil Beaufort Zod said:

Obviously, we don't know when Bell will report. But I believe HE knows when he will. As in, he's already decided the week and day of the week he's coming in. He just won't say. 

My GUESS is that it won't be week 10, but some time before where he can reasonably save wear on his tires but pick up a couple extra game checks than waiting would provide. Factoring in the time it would take to get prepared for a game and a likely time-share (which he'd prefer), I think he can report after week 6 and feel good about the money forfeited and not getting run into the ground.

You might be right though he may miss an additional 2 paychecks when he does report since the Steelers have already filed for a 2-week roster exemption.

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33 minutes ago, Capella said:

I’m curious how you think he is going to lose here. 

Not "lose" per se but the reality is, he is a depreciating asset no matter what he does.

In avoiding some wear and tear now he is slowing the rate of depreciation to some extent but to what extent is hard to quantify. In the process he is costing himself game cheques and I also think the way he is "handling his business" is going to negatively affect his next contract to some extent as well - that extent will also be hard to quantify.

If you think of the used car analogy, sure mileage affects value but model year does as well. An older car with low mileage is great and all but there's still a limit to what people are willing to pay. It's not a great analogy obviously but the point is, I am really curious about how much further he comes out ahead with this strategy versus just showing up, playing well and signing somewhere next year with the extra "mileage".

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7 hours ago, IheartGuinness said:

He definitely looks weak. Like a whiny little brat who wants to throw a tantrum but will ultimately lose in the end. 

The guy is going to cash a check anywhere from $30 million to $50 million. He does not lose in this situation. He pisses off a ton of Steeler fans and Bell Fantasy owners, but he does not lose. 

Let me ask you this. Would you forgo $10 million and alienate an entire city to cash a check for $40 million and gain a whole new fan base in a new city? Don't side step here, just answer the question. 

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1 hour ago, Capella said:

Yup. Amazing anybody is mad at this guy. He needs to get his. More players should be doing this. 

How can any of you be on the side of the owners for anything. 

Agreed, and more than that, Bell clearly has put a price on his own health and well-being, which I think everyone should be on board with. If he's going to get run into the ground by a team, which is something that will substantially decrease his longevity in the league and contribute to a lesser quality of life post-football, why the hell can't he decide that he'll only do it for X guaranteed dollars? He's not under contract, and he didn't spend the better part of his life honing his body and talents so that he can get underpaid relative to his contributions to the team.

The whiny little brat comment and other similar posts just make no sense to me. Only he can decide what his health and quality of life is worth to him. If a team isn't willing to pay that, he might re-evaluate or he might not, but I don't think anyone should bemoan him for trying to get compensated what he thinks he reasonably deserves. He's not out in the media, pulling a Dez Bryant by consistently trash talking his coaches and fellow players. Just let the man be.

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I’m still convinced, and I’ve posted on here with the evidence, that if you listen to what Bell has actually said (and Kamara) about Bell’s outlook on this season he knows he will make less money overall in his career thanks to this holdout. He doesn’t care. This is a protest about RB pay structure in the NFL.  Especially RB pay structure for elite dual threat backs.

Only thing I’ll add because I haven’t mentioned it before here is that he and his agent better be giving the finger to the union behind the scenes as much as he is to the Steelers.  The CBA’s prestructuring or Rookie deals to the advantage of veteran players screws running backs.  They don’t get to become veterans in the same numbers as other positional players do.  They take more abuse and they have shorter careers, so that rookie contract might be 50% or more of a successful NFL RB’s total career, whereas it’s 25-33% of the career of an equally talented player at another position.

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It's really difficult for a team to trade for Bell too. I mean how much in addition to the tag money would they have to give Bell to get him to come in and play? Then there's no guarantee he resigns with that team. On top of that it probably takes at least a 3rd round pick as well since the Steelers get a late 3rd if they keep him. 

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1 hour ago, habsfan said:

Not "lose" per se but the reality is, he is a depreciating asset no matter what he does.

In avoiding some wear and tear now he is slowing the rate of depreciation to some extent but to what extent is hard to quantify. In the process he is costing himself game cheques and I also think the way he is "handling his business" is going to negatively affect his next contract to some extent as well - that extent will also be hard to quantify.

If you think of the used car analogy, sure mileage affects value but model year does as well. An older car with low mileage is great and all but there's still a limit to what people are willing to pay. It's not a great analogy obviously but the point is, I am really curious about how much further he comes out ahead with this strategy versus just showing up, playing well and signing somewhere next year with the extra "mileage".

He doesn't need to do anything to "come out ahead" aside from stay healthy.. the biggest threat to that is playing football.  He has shown up and played well (understatement), he has established his worth.  The math spits out a very unambiguous result... do what it takes to make it to FA '19.

 

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3 minutes ago, kyoun1e said:

What are people offering in trade?

Gotta think there are some nervous Bell owners out there who think a holdout for 10 weeks is highly possible.

Thinking of offering RB3 type value.

Assume you're talking redraft.

I think value will be contingent on whether the Bell owner is winning or losing. I own him in redraft and I am entirely focused on his PPG ability when he reports. Obviously that's all well and good if I'm keeping my head above the water line. If I'm not, I'll be selling...

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24 minutes ago, jtp1982 said:

I’m still convinced, and I’ve posted on here with the evidence, that if you listen to what Bell has actually said (and Kamara) about Bell’s outlook on this season he knows he will make less money overall in his career thanks to this holdout. He doesn’t care. This is a protest about RB pay structure in the NFL.  Especially RB pay structure for elite dual threat backs.

Only thing I’ll add because I haven’t mentioned it before here is that he and his agent better be giving the finger to the union behind the scenes as much as he is to the Steelers.  The CBA’s prestructuring or Rookie deals to the advantage of veteran players screws running backs.  They don’t get to become veterans in the same numbers as other positional players do.  They take more abuse and they have shorter careers, so that rookie contract might be 50% or more of a successful NFL RB’s total career, whereas it’s 25-33% of the career of an equally talented player at another position.

I also think it's comical that anyone pretends to know what is optimal move cash wise here.  In the end, the one dude who has to live with the decision has evaluated the risk/reward and has chosen his path-- that some sit at their computers chugging Mountain Dews and proclaiming him an idiot is absolutely hysterical.    

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53 minutes ago, TheFanatic said:

The guy is going to cash a check anywhere from $30 million to $50 million. He does not lose in this situation. He pisses off a ton of Steeler fans and Bell Fantasy owners, but he does not lose. 

Let me ask you this. Would you forgo $10 million and alienate an entire city to cash a check for $40 million and gain a whole new fan base in a new city? Don't side step here, just answer the question. 

Let me ask you this - how certain are you that a team will pay Bell $40M?

I don't begrudge Bell wanting to get paid.  But, this is not without risk.  Maybe teams look at Bell and decide the cap hit is not worth it - and the money is better spent in another area.

I don't follow the NFL as closely as I used to, but for Bell to get paid, he needs to find a team that has the cap space, is close to competing for a Super Bowl, and looks at RB as a priority position.  How many teams fit that criteria?

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2 hours ago, Capella said:

Yup. Amazing anybody is mad at this guy. He needs to get his. More players should be doing this. 

How can any of you be on the side of the owners for anything. 

I don't think it's a matter of being mad at the guy or being on the side of the owners.  I just think a lot of us disagree with the way he's handling all of this. 

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3 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

Let me ask you this - how certain are you that a team will pay Bell $40M?

I don't begrudge Bell wanting to get paid.  But, this is not without risk.  Maybe teams look at Bell and decide the cap hit is not worth it - and the money is better spent in another area.

I don't follow the NFL as closely as I used to, but for Bell to get paid, he needs to find a team that has the cap space, is close to competing for a Super Bowl, and looks at RB as a priority position.  How many teams fit that criteria?

Yeah, I don't think it's a lock that he gets $30 to $50 mln next year guaranteed.  He's a little older than DJ and Gurley, has had suspensions/injuries, a lot more wear and tear on his body, and honestly....it's a bad look for him sitting out like this.  

He'll definitely be starting for another team next year but I don't think he's going to get paid like he thinks he is.

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24 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

Let me ask you this - how certain are you that a team will pay Bell $40M?

I don't begrudge Bell wanting to get paid.  But, this is not without risk.  Maybe teams look at Bell and decide the cap hit is not worth it - and the money is better spent in another area.

I don't follow the NFL as closely as I used to, but for Bell to get paid, he needs to find a team that has the cap space, is close to competing for a Super Bowl, and looks at RB as a priority position.  How many teams fit that criteria?

I would bet just about anything, barring an injury or suspension that he gets at least $30 million and it will likely be closer to $40 mill. He is the most dynamic RB in the league right now and has the numbers to back it up. 

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21 minutes ago, eoMMan said:

Yeah, I don't think it's a lock that he gets $30 to $50 mln next year guaranteed.  He's a little older than DJ and Gurley, has had suspensions/injuries, a lot more wear and tear on his body, and honestly....it's a bad look for him sitting out like this.  

He'll definitely be starting for another team next year but I don't think he's going to get paid like he thinks he is.

He is younger than DJ and I don't think his suspension means that much. Ben got paid after being suspended, Vincent Jackson got a monster contract after holding out for 10 games? The only bad look he is getting is from Steelers fans and fantasy football owners.

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1 minute ago, msudaisy26 said:

He is younger than DJ and I don't think his suspension means that much. Ben got paid after being suspended, Vincent Jackson got a monster contract after holding out for 10 games? The only bad look he is getting is from Steelers fans and fantasy football owners.

Let's not let logic, facts and precedent get in the way of a good argument!

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2 minutes ago, TheFanatic said:

He is the most dynamic RB in the league right now and has the numbers to back it up. 

To be fair:  "He is the most dynamic RB NOT in the league right now and has the numbers to back it up." 

But, and more to my point, its not simply about being the most dynamic player at his position.  It comes with a lot of other factors - how much of an upgrade in both ability and in cost does he involve?  A team looking to sign Bell will be asking itself "Will Bell turn us into a playoff team (or Super Bowl team)?"  How much better is he than our current RB?  Who is available in the draft?  Who is available as a FA?  What other positions are "need" position on the team to make it a play-off contender?  What is our current cap situation?  Do we play a system that is conducive to maximizing Bell's talents?

 

How many elite RBs have gotten paid via FA?

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2 hours ago, Capella said:

Yup. Amazing anybody is mad at this guy. He needs to get his. More players should be doing this. 

How can any of you be on the side of the owners for anything. 

Yeah just wait until he signs with a "bottom dweller" for $70MM with $40MM guaranteed, then irish eyes from the internet will get the last laugh about this "clown" Bell and his "moron" agent.

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3 minutes ago, msudaisy26 said:

He is younger than DJ and I don't think his suspension means that much. Ben got paid after being suspended, Vincent Jackson got a monster contract after holding out for 10 games? The only bad look he is getting is from Steelers fans and fantasy football owners.

Try again....just a few months but still...he's not younger than DJ...

And you can't argue how much more wear and tear he has compared to DJ.

 

David Johnson:

Age / DOB:  (26) / 12/16/1991

 

Le'Veon Bell:

Age / DOB:  (26) / 2/18/1992

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Just now, eoMMan said:

Try again....just a few months but still...he's not younger than DJ...

And you can't argue how much more wear and tear he has compared to DJ.

 

David Johnson:

Age / DOB:  (26) / 12/16/1991

 

Le'Veon Bell:

Age / DOB:  (26) / 2/18/1992

:lmao:

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4 minutes ago, TheFanatic said:

Let's not let logic, facts and precedent get in the way of a good argument!

Exactly.

Let's confirm facts like ages before posting these "facts".

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9 minutes ago, TheFanatic said:

I would bet just about anything, barring an injury or suspension that he gets at least $30 million and it will likely be closer to $40 mill. He is the most dynamic RB in the league right now and has the numbers to back it up. 

What team(s) do you think will pay that?

Not a trick question - I am interested in what his potential FA universe looks like.  Without looking into cap space, I imagine I could eliminate about 2/3 of the league as teams who would not spend $30M plus guaranteed on a FA RB - so I am more curious as to what are the realistic destinations.

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33 minutes ago, eoMMan said:

Yeah, I don't think it's a lock that he gets $30 to $50 mln next year guaranteed.  He's a little older than DJ and Gurley, has had suspensions/injuries, a lot more wear and tear on his body, and honestly....it's a bad look for him sitting out like this.  

He'll definitely be starting for another team next year but I don't think he's going to get paid like he thinks he is.

He's 3 months younger than DJ.

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2 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

What team(s) do you think will pay that?

Not a trick question - I am interested in what his potential FA universe looks like.  Without looking into cap space, I imagine I could eliminate about 2/3 of the league as teams who would not spend $30M plus guaranteed on a FA RB - so I am more curious as to what are the realistic destinations.

Scroll back a page or two. We just did this. The number of options is higher than you think. 

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2 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

What team(s) do you think will pay that?

Not a trick question - I am interested in what his potential FA universe looks like.  Without looking into cap space, I imagine I could eliminate about 2/3 of the league as teams who would not spend $30M plus guaranteed on a FA RB - so I am more curious as to what are the realistic destinations.

And wouldn't the other third tend to be teams that may have cap space but also have other significant needs to fill?

I'm not arguing with people who are completely confident he's going to get this massive payday. I'm just a lot less confident.

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3 minutes ago, Dr. Octopus said:

1992 comes AFTER 1991 - look it up if you don't believe me.

All good, I had multiple things up and looked at the wrong thing...my bad.

Regardless, there's no denying the amount of wear and tear on Bell versus DJ and Gurley.  DJ and Gurley are definitely "younger" in terms of RB miles.

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Just now, eoMMan said:

All good, I had multiple things up and looked at the wrong thing...my bad.

Regardless, there's no denying the amount of wear and tear on Bell versus DJ and Gurley.  DJ and Gurley are definitely "younger" in terms of RB miles.

It's all good. I have to admit it took me a few seconds to figure out if I was crazy or not.

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Bell is cutting off his pee pee to spite his brain.  

RB value is just not what he thinks it is.  Steelers just doing what makes sense for them.  He is throwing a tantrum but i don't think it is what is best for him.  

If he could sit out the year and then be a free agent then yes this makes sense. 
Otherwise the smart move is to take the huge contract this year and then go into free agency next year.   even if you get injured you still get this year and you will get another contract somewhere. 

If you are that worried you are one stiff breeze away from being worth nothing, maybe NFL teams feel the same way too?

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1 hour ago, Dr. Octopus said:

Yeah just wait until he signs with a "bottom dweller" for $70MM with $40MM guaranteed, then irish eyes from the internet will get the last laugh about this "clown" Bell and his "moron" agent.

The point of confusion might be assuming that Bell cares about winning football games on the field.

If I'm following Bell and his agent correctly, of the following two options, Option B is strongly preferable to him/them:

A) Sign for $39 million up-front guaranteed for a team that will definitely hoist the Lombardi, or
B) Sign for $40 million up-front guaranteed for a team that will go 0-16 by an average score of 45-0.

...

For some observers, Option B would be "Bell losing" because his team would suck so bad. For other observers, Option B would be winning because "more money = win!"

Depends on what one cares about deep down inside :shrug:  I highly doubt (but don't know for sure) that Bell is in a situation now where he can "have it all" -- he's got to choose between maximum money and (a good chance at) winning. Maybe he lucks out hard and gets Gurley money on a bottom feeder that turns into 2019's Cinderella story. Pretty unlikely, but yeah, OK ... it can happen.

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1 hour ago, eoMMan said:

All good, I had multiple things up and looked at the wrong thing...my bad.

Regardless, there's no denying the amount of wear and tear on Bell versus DJ and Gurley.  DJ and Gurley are definitely "younger" in terms of RB miles.

Except for the fact that the "miles" thing is a complete myth. It's not miles that slows a player down, it's age. 

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4 hours ago, Dr. Octopus said:

1992 comes AFTER 1991 - look it up if you don't believe me.

I've run the numbers, checked Google, Googley` (French version of Google, just as a backup), and put together some comprehensive spreadsheets analyzing the data. 

Dr Octopus is correct, 1992 does indeed come after 1991.

Now, if we throw 1993 or 1990 in the mix, I'd have to get back to the chalkboard, and don't even begin changing decades to something like 1989, that throws the whole formula upside down. 

Edited by fantasycurse42
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3 minutes ago, TheFanatic said:

Except for the fact that the "miles" thing is a complete myth. It's not miles that slows a player down, it's age. 

It's even more complicated than that. Healing, range of motion, ligament strength/suppleness/flexibility, bone strength, etc. differ among individuals. Not a lot of Walter Paytons or Jerome Bettises out there. Is Le'Veon Bell like those guys? Time will tell.

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1 hour ago, Sinn Fein said:

Without looking into cap space, I imagine I could eliminate about 2/3 of the league as teams who would not spend $30M plus guaranteed on a FA RB - so I am more curious as to what are the realistic destinations.

This. So many teams (following the Patriots) have internally-capped amounts at most positions. For instance, the Saints will absolutely not sign WR Michael Thomas to a second contract if he stays healthy, continues to produce, and gets to where he's ready to command the biggest WR contract (signing bonus $) in the league. 

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50 minutes ago, mr. peanut said:

If you are that worried you are one stiff breeze away from being worth nothing, maybe NFL teams feel the same way too?

This is something to think about -- why did Bell play last year? Wasn't it just as much of a huge risk for him in 2017? Didn't he have enough skins on to the wall to hold out last year -- years remaining on his contract be dam-ned?

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14 hours ago, irish eyes said:

I hope this moron sits until week 10, loses 10 million dollars, then they bury his ### on the bench. Then he signs  with a bottom dweller (which he will) and is never heard from again.

Why do you hate my FF team?

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