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RB Le'Veon Bell, FA - 9.6.21 Workout For Baltimore (12 Viewers)
- Thread starter Eminence
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Steelers4Life
Footballguy
Excuse me? The Steelers would've needed to know prior to July 16th that he wouldn't be reporting at all. After that date, trading him wouldn't make any sense because no other team could sign him to a long term deal. It was everyone's thought - including those of his teammates - that he would handle it the same way as last year, and when he didn't, it had already cost the Steelers any ability to realistically trade him.
It's likely that his plans changed when he saw what Gurley, Johnson, and Mack got paid, but by then it was too late. And the one thing those guys have in common is that they were signed to huge contracts by teams with the benefit of NOT having a franchise QB making huge money yet. The Steelers didn't have that flexibility with Ben and Brown already locked up.
If he had no intention of playing this year at all, he should've said so in early July and he probably would've been dealt, the Steelers would've gotten their compensation for him, and he'd have his contract... instead, he'll miss out on (probably) $8 million and he lost a year of his prime that he can no longer offer to another team.
Steelers have been playing hardball with him for two seasons, and you're flipping this script and putting this on the player? They were never going to sign him to a contract he would accept, and they were never going to trade him, and they were perfectly fine sitting back with a smug ####### look on their faces while he was "forced" to take a franchise tender for a second straight year.
The team royally screwed the pooch on this one, because they assumed the player would be as docile as Kurt Cousins. It's very possible that Bell would have showed up a week before training camp broke if not for the Johnson and Gurley deals, but the seed for this was planted by the team a long time ago.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
The seed was planted in 2015 and 2016 because of Bell's stupidity, not the Steelers being cheap. That's not hardball, that's the same business that Bell is using to justify his decision. If you want to argue about the merits of the Franchise Tag, be my guest. That doesn't change just because you favor the player or dislike the team.
Bell served a suspension in 2015 and wasn't getting a long term contract after that offseason. Bell served ANOTHER suspension in 2016, and he sure as heck didn't deserve a long term contract after that season either. Those suspensions were HIS fault, not the Steelers', and the Steelers rewarded Antonio Brown with a big contract before his final season under contract instead. They keep who they want to keep historically. Bell screwed himself for those years.
Could they have offered him one this offseason? Probably not, now that both Ben and Brown have huge deals. So the Steelers franchised him again instead, which was 100% the right thing to do. If Bell wanted out that badly, all he had to do was say so early enough that the Steelers could trade him. Instead, he did this.... that's his right. But all that's left for him now is to sacrifice a lot of money, report for week 11, and hope he gets what he thinks he's worth next year.
jm192
Footballguy
We've seen plenty of injuries this year.
Bell was almost assuredly going to get 400 carries touches for the second straight season. That's awesome when a team loves you and is willing to take care of you.
If they're going to ride you for 400 more touches, not pay you beyond this year--that screams they don't care about you. Why would anyone not what's best for themself?
Bell was almost assuredly going to get 400 carries touches for the second straight season. That's awesome when a team loves you and is willing to take care of you.
If they're going to ride you for 400 more touches, not pay you beyond this year--that screams they don't care about you. Why would anyone not what's best for themself?
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
http://www.espn.com/espnw/sports/article/24844573/leveon-bell-potentially-risking-2019-salary-absence-pittsburgh-steelers-wait-trade-offers
For anyone who missed the story yesterday, Bell sitting out this year lowers the number he'd be able to earn next year if he's assigned the Transition Tag. It's 120% of his 2018 salary, and the more he sits out, the lower that number gets. It's ALREADY lower than his current year Franchise Tag number.
I'm hoping the Steelers do whatever they possibly can to maximize the return they get for him when he leaves. It'll be interesting to see what happens for next year if it gets to this point, that's for sure.
Argue the CBA if you want, but it's all spelled out pretty clearly.
For anyone who missed the story yesterday, Bell sitting out this year lowers the number he'd be able to earn next year if he's assigned the Transition Tag. It's 120% of his 2018 salary, and the more he sits out, the lower that number gets. It's ALREADY lower than his current year Franchise Tag number.
I'm hoping the Steelers do whatever they possibly can to maximize the return they get for him when he leaves. It'll be interesting to see what happens for next year if it gets to this point, that's for sure.
Argue the CBA if you want, but it's all spelled out pretty clearly.
rockaction
Footballguy
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
Meh, they wouldn't be a contender with him either. He can't fix the defense, and his impact on the offense over what they have wouldn't be the difference between contending and not contending regardless. But that's not for this thread lol.
People who have Bell on their fantasy teams or fans of other teams want to believe otherwise, but you won't find many/any Steelers fans who've watched this team every year tell you they think this team is a contender if only Bell had signed on. I pegged them to be 8-8 or 9-7 this year with Bell. If it costs them a couple games, I don't really care... better draft pick.
jm192
Footballguy
Having a special receiver out of the backfield will make the offense much better. Conner is capable. Bell is a star.
Take that bell. We stink AND we didn't have to pay you $15 mil. WE WIN!!!
I'm sure it's been rehashed 15 different ways over the past dozens of pages but he has to show for week 11 on or he doesn't get that year of eligibility and don't think the Steelers won't just franchise him again at the same rate just to #### him over again. If they do that, good luck on that next collective bargaining agreement.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2018/09/13/heres-what-fantasy-football-owners-should-do-with-leveon-bell/?utm_term=.1ed63a323b12
It doesn’t appear that Bell is going to show up in Week 2, and, especially given that he doesn’t seem to mind upsetting his teammates, there is good reason to think that he won’t do so until Week 11, when he must report in order to ultimately reach free agency at the end of the season. It’s not even out of the question that he skips this season altogether, in effect daring the Steelers to franchise him again at the same amount and go through the same melodrama for another year.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
Again, I'm not saying he's not better than Conner. He is, especially as a receiver. I'm saying the difference between them isn't the difference between the Steelers contending and not. The defense lost its heart when Shazier went down and it can't overcome a general lack of talent. Unless Bell can pressure the QB or cover a WR, neither of which the Steelers can do, this team isn't built to compete with the big boys.
I've always been a fan of Bell, loved watching him play. For his sake, I hope he cashes in big because he's going to have a lot of cash he has to make up for losing this year. It'll likely be a team with a far less established QB or one that hasn't gotten the big contract yet where Bell has to carry an offense, which he never had to do in Pittsburgh despite being one of the main pieces.
We really don't care what their record is. In fact, we want a team that is fighting for a playoff spot going into weeks 14-16.
Deamon
Footballguy
No I understand, I'm just saying IF the Steelers reach out to him or if he comes back before week 11, now would be the ideal time from a team standpoint. This week seems like the peak of the Steelers' need for him over the next 6 weeks.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
Sorry man, but I have serious doubts that the Steelers would/will let him on the field this year whether he reports or not. Can't trust him or his effort and he's already lost the respect and trust of his teammates because of how he handled it - that speaks volumes, because players NEVER speak out against other players. Who knows though.
It’s not spelled out as clearly as you’re suggesting, and the article you linked referenced that in its’ last line. It is a question as to whether a team CAN use the transition tag after previously franchising a player twice. The Redskins reportedly contemplated doing this after franchising Cousins twice. When that report came out, Cousins’ agent (and the NFLPA, I believe) immediately said if that were to happen, they’d file an appeal to an arbitrator.
That being said, IDK why Pitt would use the transition tag. That allows Bell to negotiate with other teams. Teams with a lot of 2019 cap room could offer him a massively front-loaded contract that Pitt couldn’t match. If Pitt refuses to match the offer, they get no compensation.
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Steelers4Life
Footballguy
They can use the Transition Tag on him at a rate that's already lower than the Franchise Tag and dropping every week Bell sits out. Either one would give the Steelers the ability to tag him and trade him prior to the deadline and maximizing the return for him. Personally, I think that's the approach the Steelers should take.
You can't say Bell is right to make a business decision and then condemn the Steelers for doing the same.
Oh, I agree and he doesn't want on the field but he has to report to get that year of service. He'll gladly take 6 million to sit at home and then get outta there. This year for me is already toast. Wentz, Mixon, Bell, Ingram.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
My understanding is that the Transition Tag does come with compensation that'll eclipse that of the 2020 3rd rounder they'll get if he leaves. I might be wrong about that though. Either way, I definitely see the Steelers doing everything in their power to get as much as they can when he leaves. Whatever it takes, it takes.
I don't think that's the case. When the 'skins were dealing with Cousins, it came up & I read up on it. I'll see if I can find a link.
ETA-Here's a link, but it's not the one I'd seen from the Cousins' situation (note the underlined portion):
Link
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Milkman
Footballguy
Yeah the Steeler def screwed Bell. He didn't do himself any favors but the Steelers certainly could have offered him more. Thet decided to screw him and they are paying for it now. Didn't think they would miss him as much as they do but it sure is refreshing to see their team imploding.
Hope they lose their next game too.....
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
The team isn't imploding, but I wouldn't mind seeing them lose a lot of games since they're not contending this year anyways. Just don't have the talent they used to on the defense. Losing Shazier crushed them, and they just can't afford to pay everyone... that's the price of having too much elite talent. Bell wasn't worth the deal he's wanted at various points and for different reasons over the last 3 or 4 years. That's not the Steelers' fault, that's his.
I have to laugh at anyone who thinks it's the Steelers fault he doesn't have the deal he wants. Those people have a selective memory, but hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Fact is, Gurley, Johnson, and Mack got the deals they did because they're on teams that don't have huge money contracts tying up a QB and WR already, and they were able to receive the contracts at a time that they weren't coming off a season with a drug suspension. This offseason was the first time Bell was in that situation since 2015, and now he doesn't fit. That's not the Steelers screwing him, that's poor decisions on his part and poor timing for a deal.
Bell has gotten exactly what he deserves to this point in his career... wherever it goes from here, another team with more cap flexibility will find a way to fit him in. And at that point, we'll see how much he benefited from playing on a team with a good run blocking line, a HOF QB and arguably the best WR in the game, too.
I can't find any pundit who said that this year's roster is worse than the 2017 team that made it to the AFC semifinals. I mean, with Bell.
538 had them as the 5th best team in the league, with a 2/3 of making the playoffs and better than 50/50 to win the North outright.
CBS had them winning the division at 11-5, same with Sporting News and Sports Illustrated. CBS and SI picked them to go to the Super Bowl.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
Or offense, it seems. Two TD's is all they could muster at home? I hate to say it, but Bell being out is impacting their ability to win by a lot. The Ravens didn't blitz hardly at all yesterday. They just wanted to double Brown and Juju and dared the Steelers to beat them with Conner. They couldn't. The book on the Steelers is written in stone right now and more and more teams are going to feast on them, doubling the receivers and let Conner fail miserably. This is only going to get uglier. Sorry Steeler fans.
Milkman
Footballguy
The Steelers should have offered more than they did. They really screwed up when they asked him to take a pay cut year one and refused to guarantee the 2nd year. They are to blame for this. Bell certainly would have taken less than he was asking for but he wasn't taking a pay cut. Meh Bell should get paid if he can get through those 6 games without getting hurt and the Steelers have less SB equity this year than they would have if they hadn't screwed Bell. Wasting one of Big Ben's prime years is a big mistake. Hopefully the Steelers continue to get screwed in this deal.
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bryhamm
Footballguy
Yes, they really should have; if they didn’t want to be forced to deal with the situation they find themselves in now.
Milkman
Footballguy
Lol it was a bad offer and it's why we are where we are. They could have offered less than Bell was asking but more than they did and he'd be playing now.
Ksquared
Footballguy
Lol, you few that continue to emphasize how much Pitts screwed Bell probably live by your credit card. Buy whatever you want, whether it means you have money to cover it or not.
The NFL has a hard cap....how many veterans needed to be released and on the street to fit the "amount Bell deserves" under the cap? The Raiders did not want two $20 Million salaries on their books...but Pittsburgh should put three players that would average between them about $20 Million/yr each (I am estimating this number because I don't wish to look it up but I believe it be very close). Many in here don't seem to care about the 4-6 veterans that would have to be dropped and replaced with minimum FA salaries...let's just focus on Bell who refused a contract almost double any of the previous RB contracts (prior to Gurley's).
But remember Pitts likes to screw it players over.....just ask Shazier
The NFL has a hard cap....how many veterans needed to be released and on the street to fit the "amount Bell deserves" under the cap? The Raiders did not want two $20 Million salaries on their books...but Pittsburgh should put three players that would average between them about $20 Million/yr each (I am estimating this number because I don't wish to look it up but I believe it be very close). Many in here don't seem to care about the 4-6 veterans that would have to be dropped and replaced with minimum FA salaries...let's just focus on Bell who refused a contract almost double any of the previous RB contracts (prior to Gurley's).
But remember Pitts likes to screw it players over.....just ask Shazier
ghostguy123
Footballguy
If that was Bell, he gets 15 million this year, goes on IR, comes back fine next year with a nice deal. He broke his leg. He didnt die.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
This becomes a pointless debate with people who don't watch the team every week but think they can judge the impact on nothing but fantasy stats or a box score.
There's a good reason why you won't find any - if any - Steelers fans who are unhappy with them not locking up Bell long term. It would've been a huge mistake to do that.
Bell was not going to be playing unless he got a long term deal with tons of guaranteed money. That wasn't coming from the Steelers. He wasn't worth it before this offseason because of his own stupidity, and he wasn't worth it this offseason because of the salary cap regardless of the short term impact it has on the Steelers offense this year.
There's a good reason why you won't find any - if any - Steelers fans who are unhappy with them not locking up Bell long term. It would've been a huge mistake to do that.
Bell was not going to be playing unless he got a long term deal with tons of guaranteed money. That wasn't coming from the Steelers. He wasn't worth it before this offseason because of his own stupidity, and he wasn't worth it this offseason because of the salary cap regardless of the short term impact it has on the Steelers offense this year.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
There were a lot of "experts" who vastly overrated the Steelers' defense heading into this year and underestimated how much of an impact Shazier's injury would have. He called the defenses, was a stud in coverage, and went sideline to sideline against the run. The signs of the defensive collapse started late last year. They picked the Steelers more because of tradition and history than talent, because the talent on defense isn't very good.
matuski
Footballguy
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
https://www.sbnation.com/2017/8/18/16170064/leveon-bell-pittsburgh-steelers-contract-franchise-tag-deal
Yeah, those cheap Steelers offered him a deal in 2017 when he had missed games in 2015 and 2016 due to suspension. It was for 5 years, $60M with $30M in the first 2 years. He felt he was worth more THEN because he's a top RB and a top WR.
The Steelers haven't screwed him. He's screwed himself over and over again because he feels he's worth more than he is.
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Milkman
Footballguy
They did right by Shazier and I really liked that story. They should have done right by Bell. They didn't. They decided the franchise tag him again when he turned down a 4.5 million dollar pay cut this year and no guarantee on the 2nd year. Which was the right decision for Bell's future.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Putting Bell aside for a minute, since the unfortunate Shazier injury, in their next 8 games (excluding a game near the end of the season last year against the third string Texans roster plagued with mass injuries), the Steelers defense has allowed 250 points. That's 31.25 ppg. That would explain why they have gone 3-4-1 over that time.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
I think he is being sarcastic, but they have messed with people before on contracts. They basically forced Polamanu into retirement, Wallace, they have done it with Brown.
Again, the numbers from that article aren’t what matters. The $60M, $12M/year, $30M in first 2 years don’t matter. It’s the guaranteed money, and if they offered him only $10M in REAL (not rolling) guaranteed, it stands to reason that the offer from last year was similar (if not smaller) with regards to REAL guarantees. These guys rarely see the big numbers at the back end of those deals, so they want the guarantees. You’ve pointed out that the Steelers don’t guarantee anyone but Ben, so it’s disongenuous to pretend that that offer was actually for $60M, or $30M, or $12M/year. Those aren’t real numbers, and based on what you’ve told us about how the Steelers work, he REAL money was likely pretty low.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
They locked up Brown a year before his contract was up too. They keep who they want to keep, always have, and they make the right decision damn near every time. That's why you won't find many ex-Steelers who got away and contributed elsewhere aside from guys they already had a replacement for.
BINGO. It's not about Bell no matter how many people want to believe it is. He'd help, but teams with defenses that give up 30+ per week aren't contenders, and the difference between Conner and Bell isn't going to bridge that gap no matter HOW big of a gap someone believes it is. So have the Steelers lost something during the hold-out? Of course they have. I fear that not having a legit defense is about to close the window of opportunity for the Steelers to take advantage of Ben's last few years.
And the Pitt FO decided to play contract chicken with a player they were never gonna give a deal he’s accept rather than address that D.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
That was a front-loaded contract, not a backloaded one. And yes, the first two years DO matter, and that contract was offered to a guy who'd missed 25% of the previous two seasons with drug suspensions. Get real if you think that's an insulting offer for a guy who'd been something less than reliable. There were reports then that his agent thought it was a done deal and expected Bell to sign it, and Bell backed out at the last minute.
He's in his situation and has missed out on millions and millions of dollars because of himself. It is what it is. Now he'll be a 27 year old RB searching for $15M per year and a huge guarantee. If he finds it, all the more power to him.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
Wow. They didn't force Polamalu into retirement, he just didn't have a place anymore and he was constantly getting hurt and missing games, and they weren't going to continue to pay the man based on what he used to be. He's a Steelers legend and went out like one.
Wallace was good here, but he was a product of the Steelers' offense. They had a guy they wanted to take his place - Antonio Brown. I'd say they made the right call there.
And they paid Brown before his last year under contract. He whined the year before about a new contract, but just because a player wants a new contract doesn't mean they get one immediately on ANY team. The Steelers rewarded him quite well I'd say.
Why? Because the Steelers always keep the guys they want to keep and are worth what they're asking for.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
I remember when it happened.Polamalu still wanted to play. There are plenty of articles that disagree with you. He might not have had anything left in the tank, but he wanted to play and they forced him out http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2016/02/17/Polamalu-has-kept-his-distance-after-forced-Steelers-retirement/stories/201602170022
https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/pittsburgh-steelers-troy-polamalu-retirement-hurt-feelings-021716
Polamalu didn't want to leave his family in Pittsburgh and play for another team.
I agree about Wallace, the Steelers did the right thing, but if I remember right they low balled him on an offer.
I disagree about Brown, the Steelers would have no problem cutting Brown if he sucked 2 or 3 years before his contract was up, but didn't renegotiate when he clearly out played the contract. That is a flaw in the system though. Did Brown hold out for a little as well? I forget.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
I'm not saying that Polamalu wanted to retire. Im saying the Steelers had to move on because at his age, he just didnt have what it took to stay healthy or make an impact anymore. If I remember, they had drafted Shamarko Thomas the year before to replace him, and they didnt have a roster spot left for Polamalu. Keeping him wouldve taken a spot from someone they felt they needed more. He didn't want to play anywhere else, so he retired a Steeler.
As for Brown, sorry, that's the NFL. Lots of guys outperform their contracts, but that doesn't mean they get a new one just because they whine or skip a little training camp. That happens every year with guys on lots of teams. The Steelers didnt make him wait till his contract was up or tag him... They signed him a year before they had to. He had been productive and reliable and he earned it.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
He’s searching for guaranteed money. YOU have told us the Steelers don’t guarantee more than what 1st year; now you’re telling us that last year they did? That doesn’t make sense. IF they don’t guarantee past year 1, and we don’t think they guaranteed him $30M last year (they didn’t, he’d have taken that year), the $30M number is not real. You think it counts, the Steelers think it counts, but the guy who has to make the decision thinks it doesn’t count. What he thinks is what matters here.
That wasn’t a legitimate offer, not on the sense of getting the job done. And they came back in 2018 & thought “he’ll have to take it this year.” They tried to take advantage of the franchise tag (if you prefer that terminology to they screwed him), and he turned the tables on them.
Absolutely, he’s losing out on money by not playing. They are losing out one of Ben’s prime years, and costing themselves a shot at another ring. Seems like me Bell is making the Steelers pay in the trophy case, just as the Steelers made him pay on the wallet.
It would be great if his actions (coupled with Thomas’ injury making the other players open their eyes) causes teams to rethink using the franchise tag to force players to accept artificially set “markets” (not its purpose; it was supposed to help franchises keep their stars, not allow teams to keep players on their prime years at below market-value).
Milkman
Footballguy
This is why I laugh when all these Steeler fan's say Bell wasn't worth what he was asking for. Let him hit free agency and then beat whatever the best offer is by $1. Guaranteed it would have been significantly higher than the amount these Steelers fan "say" Bell is worth.
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