Donkey Derp
Footballguy
It will be interesting to see what he does in his return. His averages were down last year, but his total numbers were boosted by an increase in volume. Was it more caution not to get hurt, conditioning, or simply variance?
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RB Le'Veon Bell, FA - 9.6.21 Workout For Baltimore (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter Eminence
- Start date
Donkey Derp
Footballguy
Nipsey
Footballguy
Link? Everything I'm reading today says nobody in the organization has had any contact with him.
https://twitter.com/EdBouchette/status/1047570187057332230
Oh my. You are so desperate to avoid admitting you were wrong, you go back through 5 years of my posts to find one you can take out of context & try to ignore your errors. That reeks of sadness.
Its just a FF message board; don’t take it so seriously. You let an outlier of a ridiculously small sample size lead you to a bad conclusion. There’s no need to go back half a decade to try to obscure that.
He’ll be back soon (although I’ll believe it when he actually reports); lets focus on the NFL & fantasy implications of that.
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rockaction
Footballguy
The impending doom?What's wrong with Adrian Peterson?
I kid, but only kind of. :(
rockaction
Footballguy
This has really turned into a labor/management issue, which, to me, doesn't recognize the ramifications of a lot of things within labor law. The Steelers are confined by the CBA. So is Bell. It's almost a no-fault divorce. Imagine a whole society has determined the rules you live by to be successful and if you can't do that you must part ways in order for one of you to thrive and you hate the other so much that you withhold labor and payment and...
Oh, wait.
Nice predicament we've gotten ourselves into.
Oh, wait.
Nice predicament we've gotten ourselves into.
Donkey Derp
Footballguy
Actually, I was curious to see what people said in 2013 about Bell and not surprised to see you were annoying the #### out of people back then too.
at admitting I am wrong after four games. I love how you are a hypocrite when it comes to small sample sizes. Conner is the sixth ranked PPR RB. Every player ahead of him was drafted in the first round. Yeah, I am devastated about defending Conner so far.
All right; it’s OK buddy.Actually, I was curious to see what people said in 2013 about Bell and not surprised to see you were annoying the #### out of people back then too.
Conner is the sixth ranked PPR RB. Every player ahead of him was drafted in the first round. Yeah, I am devastated about defending Conner so far.
bigupsetter
Footballguy
Bell says - I’m reporting during the bye
Translation- I’m reporting before trade deadline, you have 3 weeks to work a trade
Bell says- I think a 2nd rounder too high a price to pay for a rental
Translation- lower your asking price, make a trade happen
Bell says- I want to retire a Steeler
Translation- Get me out of Pittsburgh ASAP
Bell says- I’m doing this for those who come after me
Translation- I’m doing this for me
Bell says- I believe I can work out a deal with Pittsburgh
Translation- been 2 years, definitely can’t work out a deal with Pittsburgh but I can with another team
Such a shame Earl Thomas got hurt, that swap made so much sense on so many levels.
Translation- I’m reporting before trade deadline, you have 3 weeks to work a trade
Bell says- I think a 2nd rounder too high a price to pay for a rental
Translation- lower your asking price, make a trade happen
Bell says- I want to retire a Steeler
Translation- Get me out of Pittsburgh ASAP
Bell says- I’m doing this for those who come after me
Translation- I’m doing this for me
Bell says- I believe I can work out a deal with Pittsburgh
Translation- been 2 years, definitely can’t work out a deal with Pittsburgh but I can with another team
Such a shame Earl Thomas got hurt, that swap made so much sense on so many levels.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Donkey Derp
Footballguy
The Steelers implied team total of 30.5 tomorrow is higher than any game where Bell started. He's so amazing you guys.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
That is your argument? They have a higher implied total than anytime Bell played, for one game, that hasn't been played yet. You are really bad at trolling.The Steelers implied team total of 30.5 tomorrow is higher than any game where Bell started. He's so amazing you guys.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
“There is a new report out from Mike Florio of Pro Football Talk in which he claims the guaranteed money offered to Pittsburgh Steelers running back Le’Veon Bell was much more than the amount he has claimed.
Based on Florio’s sources, the offer Pittsburgh gave to Bell included a $10 million signing bonus in addition to a $10 million roster bonus. Once you figure in his base salary, he would have been looking at nearly $21 million guaranteed in the first year alone.”
Not that it matters at this point but the people implying the Steelers were screwing Bell by offering less guaranteed than the franchise tag were way off.
Based on Florio’s sources, the offer Pittsburgh gave to Bell included a $10 million signing bonus in addition to a $10 million roster bonus. Once you figure in his base salary, he would have been looking at nearly $21 million guaranteed in the first year alone.”
Not that it matters at this point but the people implying the Steelers were screwing Bell by offering less guaranteed than the franchise tag were way off.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Even if that is true. It still pales in comparison with the 30 million that Johnson got and 40 whatever Gurley got. If it is true.
Donkey Derp
Footballguy
what does "hasn't been played yet" have to do with anything? Before calling me a troll, maybe you shouldn't be clueless about what I said.Right it does not matter at this point but I always knew it was not $10M.
MJD gave an interview a few weeks ago, and he is notable because he shares Bell's agent, and he said it was $19M guaranteed and he said it in a way that was more like a fact and not him speculating.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Everyone is clueless about what you said, because it makes no sense. Hope that helps. Have a good night.
Donkey Derp
Footballguy
oh, I see your point. Those guys in Vegas in charge of a multi billion dollar industry are a bunch of ####### idiots. Any intelligent human being knows to follow random internet strangers and their patented eye tests.
habsfan
Footballguy
Different players, different situations, different money.
For me everything about this hurts Bell. The game is timeless and ageless. In contrast, he is a rapidly depreciating asset. Tick tock... tick tock..
ghostguy123
Footballguy
You are trying to imply something that isnt true by using vegas odds for a game.
There are twenty counter arguments for this that I would bet people just arent going to waste their time giving you.
There are twenty counter arguments for this that I would bet people just arent going to waste their time giving you.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Agreed. I thought from the beginning he screwed up not taking the 15 million.
He risks not only injury but if he doesnt play well when he comes back he is not getting a huge deal in the offseason.
habsfan
Footballguy
msudaisy26
Footballguy
How does everything hurt Bell? The Cardinals had a better reason to not pay Johnson compared the Steelers with Bell. The Cardinals are no where near winning anything. Johnson will most likely be close to 30 when they are close to winning. I am sorry you aren't going to convince me that he is a rapidly depreciating asset because of a 6 game hold out. He will get his money assuming he doesn't suffer a major injury in the last 10ish weeks. Between 2 franchise tags and whatever contract he gets next he is probably going to have 50 to 60 million in guaranteed money. Compared to the 5 year 60 million total contract the Steelers offered him before the start of last year.
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msudaisy26
Footballguy
Are you serious here? I am sure there are some comparisons to Bell's spot, but this isn't it and it isn't close.
habsfan
Footballguy
If he is handsomely rewarded with a fantastic deal in the off season, I will be back to acknowledge it.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
We can agree to disagree on whether he gets paid, but you made the comparison of the game passing him by to a guy that opted out of his contract and is extremely controversial and might have been blacked balled, and other guy was out of the league because he knocked out his wife.
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thekidd2009
Footballguy
After seeing what happened to earl thomas, what are the chances that when Leveon comes back he has a mysterious injury and can't play? Would he still be an unrestricted free agent as long as he reports? Just wondering because it seems if he sat out this long it would be foolish to risk an injury.
habsfan
Footballguy
The comparison was an extremely general one. I'm not comparing them as people or players. I'm just saying that the game moves on and we forget about the vast majority of players - great, good or okay. Bell's approach to this is novel and we'll see if it was the right one.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
The only other person I can remember doing this is Vincent Jackson and it worked out great for him.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
Not that it matters, but Gurley had just shy of $22M fully guaranteed at signing. The rest were "practical" guarantees that he clearly could've have gotten... similar to what the Steelers offered Bell. It was a very similar story for Johnson's contract.
The Steelers offered Bell around $20M guaranteed on a $47M, 3 year contract contract. Obviously not what he wanted, but I'll be shocked if someone guys way above and beyond that when he'll be 27 years old already.
habsfan
Footballguy
I'm generally a "pro labour" guy. I just think this is a league that uses backs like Shake N Bake bags. I just don't think this is like a "black book" for cars where you run your finger down a column and see "touches" and assign a value based on that.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
It only takes one though. McCoy got a 5 year deal at the age 27 for 8 million per. Which was considered a lot for a back at the time.
Hankmoody
Footballguy
msudaisy26
Footballguy
irish eyes
Footballguy
Great for Jackson, not his team. He sucked and was hurt all the time. Exactly why teams like the Steelers dont cave & give ridiculous contracts.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Actually he was very good until he got hurt at the end. . Then injuries derailed him the last 1.5 years. He played the first 58 games of his deal and average 4.4 catches a game, 73.4 yards a game, and .34 touchdowns per game. Played 16 games the first 3 years and then first 10 the 4th year out of 5 years. So really he was pretty durable and good for most of his contract. Nice try though
ghostguy123
Footballguy
They would also gain cap space to roll over to next year. Gotta weigh all options when it comes to the trade. PLus the pick they get is next year (probably) rather than 2020.msudaisy26 said:
habsfan
Footballguy
I don't see what is so controversial about the suggestion that giving big money to players on the wrong side of [insert age here] carries a lot of risk. Sometimes the player plays out the deal and the team gets a reasonable ROI but plenty of times they end up with expensive, subpar performance. When they do work out okay, it's generally because the market moves past what they were given, so looking back and not adjusting for that "inflation" the deal ends up looking okay. If Vincent Jackson was "very good" for three and a half years of a five year deal, I don't think that's a shining example of value. If anything, it's example of a contract the team probably wishes had been three years instead. I guess you can throw in the "funny money" argument in football and how years are added to the end of deals that neither party expects to happen but even if you think bad veteran contracts are low frequency events, they're still high magnitude events.msudaisy26 said:
I'm a Jays fan and they paid Donaldson, Tulo and Martin $60MM this year. In return they got an occasional catcher / utility infielder that hit .200, a guy who rehabbed for all but thirty odd games and a guy who didn't play at all. It gets better. They'll be paying two of those three guys this coming year too with little reason to believe they'll get any more performance than they did last year. All three are over 30, just saying'...
In the article below it says Pittsburgh offered Bell 10M upon signing and an additional 10M roster bonus due Sept 1 2018 and 47M total in the first three years.msudaisy26 said:
From an article on SteelersDepot.com -
"
... Before any of you start commenting about the contracts that were ultimately signed this offseason by fellow NFL running backs Todd Gurley and David Johnson, make sure you have your facts straight when it comes to the “fully guaranteed” money that each was given and the new money cash flow for each.
Gurley’s “fully guaranteed” money that he received when he signed his four-year, $57.5 million contract extension with the Los Angeles Rams on July 25, 2018 was all of $21.95 million and that includes the $21 million signing bonus given to him. The $45 million in total guarantees that was initially reported when Gurley signed his deal is a virtual guarantee total and I bet not many of you have taken the time to read the details of that contract Florio posted a while ago that explains the rolling structure. If you haven’t, shame on you.
As for the three-year, $39 million contract extension that Johnson signed with the Arizona Cardinals on September 10, 2018, his fully guaranteed money in that deal works out to be $24,682,500 and that includes a signing bonus given to him in the amount of $12 million. His injury guarantees work out to be just a little less than $32 million, the first three years of his deal.
From 2018 through 2020, Gurley and Johnson will have earned $40 million and $31.8825 million, respectively, whereas Bell would have reportedly earned $47 million in those same three years had he accepted and signed the contract the Steelers reportedly offered him. ... "
Full article is here -
https://steelersdepot.com/2018/10/new-report-says-steelers-final-offer-to-bell-included-47-million-in-first-3-years/
msudaisy26
Footballguy
There is nothing wrong with a ROI risk. That isn't what we were talking about. Jackson was really good until he got hurt and you can't predict injuries, it just happens. Especially with Jackson that was a guy that always played 16 games. Plus we weren't arguing ROI. He said Jackson was always hurt and sucked. That just isn't true and he wasn't a major injury concern signing the deal.
As far as your baseball example it is a bad one. The Bucs were so far into Jackson's contract I am sure they could have cut him if they thought he wouldn't return to form and they didn't. In baseball you are stuck paying the guy no matter what.
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msudaisy26
Footballguy
That is nice, we honestly don't know what he was offered. You have different sources saying different things and it changes weekly. Plus I would like to see the cap hit the Steelers would have taken by cutting him after 2 years, but it isn't likely we will ever find that out for sure.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Why do people keep saying they KNOW what was offered to Bell last year or this past year? You don't. Quit pretending you do.
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Donkey Derp
Footballguy
Donkey Derp
Footballguy
If you weren't a clueless troll, you would have at least kept your mouth shut until after the Atlanta game.
Donkey Derp
Footballguy
It isn't even a debate.
No Bell, teams can focus on AB. Really isn't something to argue.
Conner has been covered by a LB.
Juju is indeed better, but that isn't the difference on offense. Arguing Bell's absence hasn't had a huge impact on the offense is just a weird position to take.
how will Brown and their offense ever score without Bell? 
matuski
Footballguy
Bell >>>> Conner. PIT with Bell >> PIT with Conner. Fairly simple.
You know it, they know it, we know it.
But that isn't what you are after here is it?
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