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2013 NFL Draft Pro Day results (1 Viewer)

'wdcrob said:
The options are big, fast, quick or explosive and Franklin is none of those things. Plus his college career suggests he doesn't have enough vision/skill to succeed even if he did have the physical tools to compete.

So I'm not sure what people are seeing with him, but I think it's 95%+ their eyes are deceiving them.
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I agree, I think Barner and Kerwynn Williams will be better.
 
You guys make valid points on Franklin. I think guys of his stature are going to depend on situation.

If he truly played at his listed 195, his strength and balance was impressive from what I saw. I think of those guys ZWK listed, he probably reminds me most of Slaton and Harrison.

Compared to last year's RB, I'd put Franklin over Pead, James, and Hillman.

 
'EBF said:
Arkansas is tomorrow. Curious to see what Dennis Johnson can do. In my view he's a draftable RB prospect (5th-7th round).
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http://blogs.nfl.com/2013/03/16/dolphins-jags-among-nfl-teams-present-for-arkansas-pro-day/Dennis Johnson:5'6-3/4' 196 lbs4.47, 4.49 4032.5" Vertical9'10" Broad Jump4.55 Shuttle7.11 3-cone21 repsA bit surprised he trimmed down from his listed 212-213 lbs.Cobi Hamilton:4.58, 4.56 407.09 3-coneConsidering his combine numbers as well, dude is just not explosive at all.
 
'wdcrob said:
The options are big, fast, quick or explosive and Franklin is none of those things. Plus his college career suggests he doesn't have enough vision/skill to succeed even if he did have the physical tools to compete.

So I'm not sure what people are seeing with him, but I think it's 95%+ their eyes are deceiving them.
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I'm curious about what you use to measure vision/skill, since he came out as the #4 RB in my ratings of college performance (leading a large pack, well behind the top 3 of Kerwynn Williams, Eddie Lacy, and Onterrio McCalebb).I agree that he doesn't have any physical attributes that stand out - he's a bit above average in speed and agility/quickness, and a bit below average in size, strength, and jumping/explosiveness. (Or maybe a lot below average in size, at 196). My high ranking of him is basically one part college stats (where he broke a lot of big runs) and two parts what I saw on video (where he made a lot of people miss and did a good job of picking up extra yards - only Lacy was noticeably better). Plus the fact that he had no real weaknesses, except maybe his size.

 
'ZWK said:
'wdcrob said:
The options are big, fast, quick or explosive and Franklin is none of those things. Plus his college career suggests he doesn't have enough vision/skill to succeed even if he did have the physical tools to compete.

So I'm not sure what people are seeing with him, but I think it's 95%+ their eyes are deceiving them.
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I'm curious about what you use to measure vision/skill, since he came out as the #4 RB in my ratings of college performance (leading a large pack, well behind the top 3 of Kerwynn Williams, Eddie Lacy, and Onterrio McCalebb).I agree that he doesn't have any physical attributes that stand out - he's a bit above average in speed and agility/quickness, and a bit below average in size, strength, and jumping/explosiveness. (Or maybe a lot below average in size, at 196). My high ranking of him is basically one part college stats (where he broke a lot of big runs) and two parts what I saw on video (where he made a lot of people miss and did a good job of picking up extra yards - only Lacy was noticeably better). Plus the fact that he had no real weaknesses, except maybe his size.
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:thumbup: what about his college career are you referring to wdcrob? your post doesn't make much sense imo. franklin played on a #### team and had a decent college career. he has great speed and agility and i think he does have some explosiveness to him. i agree ZWK, there isn't any glaring weakness with him.
 
'Xue said:
You guys make valid points on Franklin. I think guys of his stature are going to depend on situation.If he truly played at his listed 195, his strength and balance was impressive from what I saw. I think of those guys ZWK listed, he probably reminds me most of Slaton and Harrison.Compared to last year's RB, I'd put Franklin over Pead, James, and Hillman.
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:thumbup:
 
For now I'm not going to say much about my collegiate performance metrics. I know from past conversations that seems to frustrate everyone, so I'm sorry about that.

FWIW, the adjustments processes are broadly similar across each of the four positions (even though they were developed independently) and they apply to every prospect equally. There's no finger on the scale or anything.

Since there seems to be a lot of interest in Franklin I did start the RBs with his write up.

 
'wdcrob said:
For now I'm not going to say much about my collegiate performance metrics. I know from past conversations that seems to frustrate everyone, so I'm sorry about that.

FWIW, the adjustments processes are broadly similar across each of the four positions (even though they were developed independently) and they apply to every prospect equally. There's no finger on the scale or anything.

Since there seems to be a lot of interest in Franklin I did start the RBs with his write up.
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you're one of the very few (if any) people i've seen knock his quickness and vision. he is a one cut guy, so i could see a knock on vision for that but to say he has poor vision is just not correct when you watch him play. the poor quickness comment is way off the mark as well imo. sure he doesn't have game breaking speed but he has some of the best foot quickness and agility in this draft. ps: it would be nice if you quote your articles from your blog instead of forcing people to go there to read it... then, if we like what you're saying we may check it out for ourselves.

 
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I'm pretty sure what I've isolated is something akin to vision for backs that have NFL-quality physical tools. If a back has elite tools but doesn't produce it stands to reason that it's because he doesn't process game action in a way that lets him use his physical advantages. Assuming no problem with work ethic, character or injuries.

But for backs like Franklin it's possible that my vision metric doesn't work the same way, and that what the poor numbers actually reflect is his lack of physical tools. In other words, all the vision in the world won't matter in the NFL if you can't compete physically.

It's also the case that this metric is forward-looking. It's not just looking at what a back did, it's looking at what a back did, adjusting it for some things that affect the score, but aren't related to vision/skill/talent/whatever you want to call it and predicting how that will translate to the NFL.

That's a little tricky since it's holistic -- the pieces interlock. So some players need much higher scores on the vision (skill/talent/whatever you want to call it) front than others do in order to make it in the NFL. There's even a small subset of backs with negative performance scores that have done pretty well in the NFL. If we had access to NCAA game charting (like PFF does for the NFL) I'm pretty sure I could sort out why that happens, but for now I just note that there's a certain type of back who translate to the NFL very well.

So when I talk about Franklin's vision, it's in the specific context of his physical profile and is being measured against similar backs who succeeded in the NFL. He's obviously much faster/quicker/better than 99.9% of the human race, but that's not what we're interested in.

 
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'wdcrob said:
I'm pretty sure what I've isolated is something akin to vision for backs that have NFL-quality physical tools. If a back has elite tools but doesn't produce it stands to reason that it's because he doesn't process game action in a way that lets him use his physical advantages. Assuming no problem with work ethic, character or injuries.

But for backs like Franklin it's possible that my vision metric doesn't work the same way, and that what the poor numbers actually reflect is his lack of physical tools. In other words, all the vision in the world won't matter in the NFL if you can't compete physically.

It's also the case that this metric is forward-looking. It's not just looking at what a back did, it's looking at what a back did, adjusting it for some things that affect the score, but aren't related to vision/skill/talent/whatever you want to call it and predicting how that will translate to the NFL.

That's a little tricky since it's holistic -- the pieces interlock. So some players need much higher scores on the vision (skill/talent/whatever you want to call it) front than others do in order to make it in the NFL. There's even a small subset of backs with negative performance scores that have done pretty well in the NFL. If we had access to NCAA game charting (like PFF does for the NFL) I'm pretty sure I could sort out why that happens, but for now I just note that there's a certain type of back who translate to the NFL very well.

So when I talk about Franklin's vision, it's in the specific context of his physical profile and is being measured against similar backs who succeeded in the NFL. He's obviously much faster/quicker/better than 99.9% of the human race, but that's not what we're interested in.
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so by correlating vision with stats and performance i can see why you would say it's poor when talking about franklin's college career. but i don't think that's a very good way to look at something like vision. his college career was on an extremely poor team and i'm certain that had more of a bearing on his performance than his vision. i just don't see vision as being dependent on performance. the bolded really confuses me - vision and talent/skill aren't the same interchangeable attributes in my eyes. you seem to be using the words interchangeably... vision to me is seeing the field and the blocks/plays develop while talent is natural ability or aptitude. also, in my eyes, vision is a skill but so are quickness, agility, blocking ability, etc.
 
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'Hoosier16 said:
'Xue said:
'EBF said:
Arkansas is tomorrow. Curious to see what Dennis Johnson can do. In my view he's a draftable RB prospect (5th-7th round).
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http://blogs.nfl.com...kansas-pro-day/Dennis Johnson:

5'6-3/4' 196 lbs

4.47, 4.49 40

32.5" Vertical

9'10" Broad Jump

4.55 Shuttle

7.11 3-cone

21 reps

A bit surprised he trimmed down from his listed 212-213 lbs.
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And shortened down a little from his listed height of 5'08".
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That's an okay workout. Not great. If accurate, the 40 time is pretty good for someone with his height/weight combo. Broad jump is fine for a guy below 5'7". Would like to have seen better numbers in the vertical and 3 cone.

Not going to go crazy hyping Johnson, but he looks solid in his game clips and had very strong YPC averages in the SEC. He would be a good late pick as a depth/complementary piece.

 
D.J. Hayden posts blazing 40 time at Houston pro day

By Kareem Copeland

Around the League Writer

University of Houston cornerback D.J. Hayden ran an impressive 40-yard dash at Houston's pro day Monday. The Houston Chronicle reported Hayden timed out at 4.33 seconds while NFL.com's Gil Brandt reported a 4.42. Either way, he was moving, and more than 25 teams were in attendance.

Hayden almost died after he tore a major vein in his heart during a November practice. Team physician Dr. Walter Lowe told The Associated Press the condition most commonly occurs in vehicle accidents and is 95 percent fatal.

"It's the most unique injury in the history of the draft," Packers senior executive Alonzo Highsmith told Houston Chronicle reporter Joseph Duarte. "The only people that ever had it aren't alive and doctors have never seen it."

Now, Hayden could be a third-round draft pick, Brandt said. He didn't work out at the NFL Scouting Combine and didn't finish Monday's workout after he tweaked his left hamstring.
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from Rotoworld:

Scouts Inc.'s Kevin Weidl calls Houston CB D.J. Hayden "an instinctive playmaker."

Hayden finished the season on the sidelined after tearing the inferior vena cava in his heart during a collision in practice. Weidle believes Hayden "should be in second-round mix barring durability checks out." We expect the Cougar to participate in the Combine.

Source: Kevin Weidl on Twitter
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Scouts Inc.'s Kevin Weidl believes Houston CB D.J. Hayden is "one the best kept secrets in this draft."

Hayden has been unable to work out during the pre-draft process due to a freak heart injury that took place during the latter parts of the 2012 season, but "he's a playmaker that will end up starting," according to Weidl. We agree, since Hayden is very fluid in his back pedal with excellent quickness to close on targets and locate the football.

Source: Kevin Weidl on Twitter
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Houston CB D.J. Hayden's agent, Jeff Nalley, said NFL teams are looking past the corner's heart issue.

Nalley came to this conclusion after meeting with NFL General Managers at the Combine and apparently the medicals were clear and "they're treating it like it didn't happen." This kind of statement is expected from agents, but if true there is a great chance Hayden is a top-100 selection.

Source: Adam Wexler on Twitter
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Green Bay Packers exec Alonzo Highsmith calls Houston CB D.J. Hayden's heart issue "the most unique injury in the history of the draft."

"The only people that ever had it aren't alive and doctors have never seen it," Highsmith added. Doctors reportedly told Hayden the heart issue was 95 percent fatal. Obviously teams will have to determine if the initial injury is repeatable and the chances that might happen.

Source: Dane Brugler on Twitter
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DJ Hayden's 40 is in this video:

I have his splits as follows:

1.57 10-yard

2.57 20-yard

4.40 40-yard

 
'Xue said:
Courtney Gardner, WR Sierra College4.51 4037" Vertical10' Broad Jump16 repshttps://twitter.com/drocksthaparty/status/313726152122458112
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Thanks, nice to actually see something. Wonder what his height/weight was.
 
'Xue said:
DJ Hayden's 40 is in this video:

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Love what you're doing with the video and 40 times Xue. Very cool.Not including the 2012 mystery revisions, are the times comparable to the times at NFLDS.com? If not, is there a consistent direction to the miss?

I don't think it's as important what the times actually are, I just care that they're about right relative to the other listed times.

 
'wdcrob said:
DJ Hayden's 40 is in this video:

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My hunch is that the second ten yards is the most informative of these splits (20-yard split minus 10-yard split, which for Hayden is 2.57-1.57=1.00). The very start of the 40 depends too much on sprinter's skills/form which aren't relevant on the field, and is hard to time precisely. And the end is mostly about the runner's top speed, which is less important than acceleration.The 20-yard split minus the 5-yard split might be even better, or even the 20-yard split minus the 1-yard split.

 
'Xue said:
Treavor Scales, RB Harvard

5'8-3/4", 201 lbs

10" Hands

31-1/4" Arms

73-1/2" Wingspan

41" Vertical

10'9" Broad Jump

20 Reps

1.42, 1.46 10-yard

2.51, 2.52 20-yard

4.45, 4.49 40-yard

4.09 Short Shuttle

6.67 3-cone

10.86 Long Shuttle

http://static.psbin.com/3/9/kk634loyrbu8xk/Football_Pro_Day_Times.PDF

Some highlights: http://vimeo.com/56731599
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The thing that stands out to me is the that the 10 time is totally blazing, yet the 40 time is not. I don't have access to complete 10 splits at the combine, but I think Onterio had the best time this year with 1.45 (4.34 in the 40) Not sure what to make of it really. Great film link, please post more like that if you can for other prospects.
 
'Drop said:
The thing that stands out to me is the that the 10 time is totally blazing, yet the 40 time is not. I don't have access to complete 10 splits at the combine, but I think Onterio had the best time this year with 1.45 (4.34 in the 40) Not sure what to make of it really. Great film link, please post more like that if you can for other prospects.
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I'm a bit skeptical on some of these Pro Day splits. Anything below a 1.50 automatically translate to a mid 4.3's or better. A 40 in the 4.45-4.49 should have a 10-yard around 1.55-1.60.Either way, his Vert, BJ, and agility times are off the charts.
 
'Xue said:
Treavor Scales, RB Harvard

5'8-3/4", 201 lbs

10" Hands

31-1/4" Arms

73-1/2" Wingspan

41" Vertical

10'9" Broad Jump

20 Reps

1.42, 1.46 10-yard

2.51, 2.52 20-yard

4.45, 4.49 40-yard

4.09 Short Shuttle

6.67 3-cone

10.86 Long Shuttle

http://static.psbin.com/3/9/kk634loyrbu8xk/Football_Pro_Day_Times.PDF

Some highlights: http://vimeo.com/56731599
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An update.Using his run in this vid:

Hard to see in this angle, but I estimate his 10-yard split at 1.57 +/- .03. Much harder to make out his 20 and 40 so I'm not going to bother.

 
I don't have all the 10 times. The data I'm using is here: http://www.steelersd...esults/?amp

Sub 1.50 10 yard splits from the combine:

DB

Eric Reid 1.47 : 4.53

Xavier Rhodes 1.47 : 4.43

Desmond Trufant 1.47 : 4.38

BW Webb 1.49 : 4.51

Kayvon Webster 1.49 : 4.41

Steve Williams 1.48 : 4.42

WR

Ryan Swope 1.47 : 4.34

RB

Knile Davis 1.49 : 4.37

Onterio McCaleb 1.45 : 4.34

I believe Goodwin ran a 1.49 on his 4.27. I don't know if these times are the 10s from their fastest timed 40 or not, because they ran 2 each.

 
All 10-yard times are Unofficial. They are hand times just like the Unofficial 40's.

I've personally measured many of them and they don't match up. I have Knile Davis at 1.60 on his 4.37 run.

 
Do you see any body type and/or running style trends within the discrepancies?

I was under the impression that the 10s were officially timed too because they had the cameras setup. It seems that if the 40s become official it wouldn't be hard to make the 10s official as well.

 
'Drop said:
Do you see any body type and/or running style trends within the discrepancies?I was under the impression that the 10s were officially timed too because they had the cameras setup. It seems that if the 40s become official it wouldn't be hard to make the 10s official as well.
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I'm not sure what you mean by the question.
 
The real Next Wes Welker:

Cody Wilson, Central Michigan:

According to NFLDraftScout:

5'8-7/8" 191 lbs

4.66 40

32-1/2" Vertical

9'3" Broad Jump

4.11 Shuttle

6.59 3-cone

21 reps!

 
Reggie Dunn, KR/WR Utah reportedly ran a 4.22 and 4.26. After analyzing the videos below, it's legit! I actually have him "slightly" slower.

I get 6.81.

Can't find an official height and weight, but he's listed at 5'10" 172.

 
Just saw that Cameron Marshall was measured at 69 3/4" and 211 at his pro day. He's much smaller than I expected him to be.

 
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