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PBS Frontline : The Retirement Gamble, sorta Must See (1 Viewer)

Getzlaf15 said:
I turn over about 30% per year.  This year looks like 40%.   What is your rate?   My wife just read an article about a guy that has 4000 units.  :excited:   

She wants me to buy more...
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2015 - New tenants in 2/9 SFs, 4/6 multis

2016 - New tenants in 1/9 SFs, 10/10 multis  (not all 10 have had new tenants, some had a few new tenants already)

 
My wealthiest friend has hundreds of college dormitories.  His Dad starting buying the units back in the 70s and they've just accumulated the best properties at two major universities.  Now he's buying up stuff in Las Vegas in a few affordable gated communities, again serving college students and young professionals. 

I was in Afghanistan with him twice, he was SF and I didn't know he had any money until I knew him a while.  If you met him in the street you'd never know he was worth tens of millions, so good for him. 

 
Doctor Detroit said:
My wealthiest friend has hundreds of college dormitories.  His Dad starting buying the units back in the 70s and they've just accumulated the best properties at two major universities.  Now he's buying up stuff in Las Vegas in a few affordable gated communities, again serving college students and young professionals. 

I was in Afghanistan with him twice, he was SF and I didn't know he had any money until I knew him a while.  If you met him in the street you'd never know he was worth tens of millions, so good for him. 
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I have found most in RE are like this.   What a freaking great idea. Always going to be in demand at top rents.  I have Will Rogers Univ about a mile away. Love it when parents sign the leases for their kids.

 
Doctor Detroit said:
My wealthiest friend has hundreds of college dormitories.  His Dad starting buying the units back in the 70s and they've just accumulated the best properties at two major universities.  Now he's buying up stuff in Las Vegas in a few affordable gated communities, again serving college students and young professionals. 

I was in Afghanistan with him twice, he was SF and I didn't know he had any money until I knew him a while.  If you met him in the street you'd never know he was worth tens of millions, so good for him. 
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when you say dormitories, I think on campus....that's not what you're talking about, right?  

 
Tiger Fan said:
when you say dormitories, I think on campus....that's not what you're talking about, right?  
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You know, I'm not sure.  I think so because we are talking the best units at the university, but I can't say for sure.  I know his business has an agreement with the institution, like a contract.  So I'm gonna say yes. 

 
ghostguy123 said:
Anyone else get all warm and fuzzy inside reading that? 

Shark move to start stockpiling guns and ammo?
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Better yet, Roth 401k/Roth IRA anything you can feasibly shield from future taxes. I can buy the "tax those with the money" angle as feasibly happening, look at what local tax authorities do to trapped homeowners on property tax assessments post-2008. It's a scary philosophy, tax the unprotected or traditional 401k/IRA savers who did their job, it's just money sitting around for the plucking, amirite?. The government ever lifts the favorable tax treatment of Roth's if this gets bad enough and even consider touching grandfathered funds, that would be a "do I move to Canada?" scenario, because the US will be in a state of chaos if we get to that conversation and I'm running with the funds I worked to save. 

If pensions run out of money, taxpayers foot the bill


You may not have a teacher retirement program, a state employee pension or some other U.S. pension plan to collect from. But if these pensions run out of money, you can bet that you’ll be the one paying for it in the form of taxes.

Individual states and the federal government are extremely unlikely to materially cut benefits to their retirees. So if the pension funds don’t make enough of a return or, God forbid, they take on massive losses from risky bets, you can expect your taxes to be higher to make up the difference.
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Doctor Detroit said:
America's retirement crisis is happening, and it's going to affect everyone
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I'm not saying pensions aren't a problem.  Government pensions are particularly likely to cause issues at some point.  But between 1)hopping from "all these things are wrong with corporate pensions" immediately to oh by the way government pensions are also potentially problematic AND ALL THESE SHORTFALLS ARE COMING OUT OF YOUR TAXES and 2)the misleading data he's sourcing/citing, this reeks of being agenda driven.

 
Bob Sacamano said:
I'm not saying pensions aren't a problem.  Government pensions are particularly likely to cause issues at some point.  But between 1)hopping from "all these things are wrong with corporate pensions" immediately to oh by the way government pensions are also potentially problematic AND ALL THESE SHORTFALLS ARE COMING OUT OF YOUR TAXES and 2)the misleading data he's sourcing/citing, this reeks of being agenda driven.
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I agree with this.  This line in particular seems a little disingenuous.

Corporate contributions to pension plans fell to $21.8 billion from $28.4 billion in 2014
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It's entirely possible that is because companies have eliminated or modified defined benefit plans. Without context it's meaningless.

 
mquinnjr said:
Better yet, Roth 401k/Roth IRA anything you can feasibly shield from future taxes. I can buy the "tax those with the money" angle as feasibly happening, look at what local tax authorities do to trapped homeowners on property tax assessments post-2008. It's a scary philosophy, tax the unprotected or traditional 401k/IRA savers who did their job, it's just money sitting around for the plucking, amirite?. The government ever lifts the favorable tax treatment of Roth's if this gets bad enough and even consider touching grandfathered funds, that would be a "do I move to Canada?" scenario, because the US will be in a state of chaos if we get to that conversation and I'm running with the funds I worked to save. 
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If you remain a US citizen while living abroad, you're still subject to the same US tax laws as people living in the US.......

 
Steve Tasker said:
If you remain a US citizen while living abroad, you're still subject to the same US tax laws as people living in the US.......
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Up for discussion if the Roth rules are not grandfathered in a "oh $#@, old people don't have money and SS is ripped clean to the bone" apocalypse scenario where the Roth veil is lifted.

 
mquinnjr said:
Up for discussion if the Roth rules are not grandfathered in a "oh $#@, old people don't have money and SS is ripped clean to the bone" apocalypse scenario where the Roth veil is lifted.
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Just to twist the knife a little, I don't think you'd avoid tax on the Roth by renouncing your citizenship either.........

 
Well, :kicksrock:

All speculation and all, but I wouldn't completely rule a nightmare scenario out like that or some smaller-scale way in which Roth's get pinged if people just don't save and something drastic needs to be done to support the elderly on a broad scale.

 
This is the excerpt from the Bloomberg article he cites as a source for jumping to the conclusion that corporations are more and more unlikely to pay your owed pension to you.

As a baby boomer, I joined the labor force when many jobs still came with an old-style pension, the kind that pays a fixed monthly sum in retirement. Although pension plans have been largely phased out in favor of 401(k) and individual retirement accounts, those of us who paid into them are entitled to the benefits we accrued.

Getting our hands on the money may not be easy, as I recently learned when I decided to take inventory of my retirement assets. Job-hopping workers, corporate upheaval, and spotty record keeping have left billions of dollars owed to Americans in limbo. “It’s a vast problem that has a huge impact on retirement security,” says Jeanne Medeiros, director of the Pension Action Center, a research group at the University of Massachusetts Boston. She estimates unclaimed pension benefits could total as much as $8 billion annually.

So, if you don't go claim your pension benefits and keep track of what happens to the company you used to work for, you might miss out on money owed you.  Gasp!

I guess we know how that gap's getting funded now.
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mquinnjr said:
Better yet, Roth 401k/Roth IRA anything you can feasibly shield from future taxes. I can buy the "tax those with the money" angle as feasibly happening, look at what local tax authorities do to trapped homeowners on property tax assessments post-2008. It's a scary philosophy, tax the unprotected or traditional 401k/IRA savers who did their job, it's just money sitting around for the plucking, amirite?. The government ever lifts the favorable tax treatment of Roth's if this gets bad enough and even consider touching grandfathered funds, that would be a "do I move to Canada?" scenario, because the US will be in a state of chaos if we get to that conversation and I'm running with the funds I worked to save. 
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Already been a full election cycle since the politician's were talking up ideas of hitting "fat-cat" IRA's with additional taxes ($2M~$3M+ balances.) IMO, only a matter of time before they go back to that as well as start saying the same thing about large balance Roth's, 401k's, etc.

 
Buckna said:
Already been a full election cycle since the politician's were talking up ideas of hitting "fat-cat" IRA's with additional taxes ($2M~$3M+ balances.) IMO, only a matter of time before they go back to that as well as start saying the same thing about large balance Roth's, 401k's, etc.
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There is a difference between IRAs and 401ks - 401ks can hold a lot more funding, so seeing a 2M balance there can't be that unusual.  It is very unusual for an IRA.  What we've seen here is people setup a structure inside an IRA where "low value" private stocks are placed and they then explode in value when a company goes public.  Instant multi-millions in an IRA.  Now that's an abuse of the system, but the IRA rules allowed it.  To now go back and try to claw that money back when it was the dip####s who wrote the legislation who screwed up is pretty evil, as it sets a precedent that will eventually get to hitting average Americans.  

 
I think this has been addressed, but can't remember.  Being retired, my income is relatively low.  Can I pay even less income tax by moving money in non-IRA accounts into Roth accounts?  So the contribution limit is the $6.5K for me and $5.5K for the wife - so moving this money decreases our taxable income by $12K ...right?

 
Bob Sacamano said:
I'm not saying pensions aren't a problem.  Government pensions are particularly likely to cause issues at some point.  But between 1)hopping from "all these things are wrong with corporate pensions" immediately to oh by the way government pensions are also potentially problematic AND ALL THESE SHORTFALLS ARE COMING OUT OF YOUR TAXES and 2)the misleading data he's sourcing/citing, this reeks of being agenda driven.
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Oh yeah, definitely agree.  At times the piece seems like an op ed but I did think it was worth posting because Business Insider is fairly reputable.  I think the more interesting conversation is the impact low interest rates are having on the insurance industry which was mentioned, but not much detail. 

 
Binky The Doormat said:
I think this has been addressed, but can't remember.  Being retired, my income is relatively low.  Can I pay even less income tax by moving money in non-IRA accounts into Roth accounts?  So the contribution limit is the $6.5K for me and $5.5K for the wife - so moving this money decreases our taxable income by $12K ...right?
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To contribute to an IRA you need to have income.  If you're truly retired you may not have qualifying income. I don't know if you can make a non-qualified IRA contribution and then convert it to a Roth.  I'd search for that and see if it can be done.  Not sure how much it would save you - if you're income is low I don't see how sheltering this will help.  Your effective income tax rate is going to be under 10%, yes?

 
Doctor Detroit said:
Oh yeah, definitely agree.  At times the piece seems like an op ed but I did think it was worth posting because Business Insider is fairly reputable.  I think the more interesting conversation is the impact low interest rates are having on the insurance industry which was mentioned, but not much detail. 
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I think they're stretching the problem.  When they talk about pensions being 85% funded that's really not too bad.  

Now, Illinois is like 40% funded.  That's a problem, and a big one.  Chicago's pensions are at about 30% funded, which is a looming disaster.  

 
Sand said:
I think they're stretching the problem.  When they talk about pensions being 85% funded that's really not too bad.  

Now, Illinois is like 40% funded.  That's a problem, and a big one.  Chicago's pensions are at about 30% funded, which is a looming disaster.  
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Part of their problem is that approx. 500 tax payers are being murdered each year. That's a lot of lost tax revenue.

 
Sand said:
To contribute to an IRA you need to have income.  If you're truly retired you may not have qualifying income. I don't know if you can make a non-qualified IRA contribution and then convert it to a Roth.  I'd search for that and see if it can be done.  Not sure how much it would save you - if you're income is low I don't see how sheltering this will help.  Your effective income tax rate is going to be under 10%, yes?




 
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Thanks Sand - very helpful.  Just went through the qualifying income link.  It looks like between my wife's income in real estate and our rental income we will have plenty to cover the $12K allowable.  

I need to go back and look at our effective rate, we have income from my pension, dividends and any capital growth from stocks/ETFs etc. sold - but see that they don't qualify.  

It will be interesting to see if our Vanguard advisor will answer this.  Disappointed with my last conversation with them.  

 
Binky The Doormat said:
Thanks Sand - very helpful.  Just went through the qualifying income link.  It looks like between my wife's income in real estate and our rental income we will have plenty to cover the $12K allowable.  

I need to go back and look at our effective rate, we have income from my pension, dividends and any capital growth from stocks/ETFs etc. sold - but see that they don't qualify.  

It will be interesting to see if our Vanguard advisor will answer this.  Disappointed with my last conversation with them.  
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Be careful, I doubt that your rental income will qualify as earned income needed to make any type of IRA contribution. Real estate rental is normally not considered earned income unless you provide significant services such as running a hotel. A general rule of thumb is if it's not a W-2 and you aren't paying self employment tax it's not earned income.

Also, contributing to a Roth IRA does not impact your current year income tax which is what you were asking about.

 
Sand said:
Doctor Detroit said:
Oh yeah, definitely agree.  At times the piece seems like an op ed but I did think it was worth posting because Business Insider is fairly reputable.  I think the more interesting conversation is the impact low interest rates are having on the insurance industry which was mentioned, but not much detail. 
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I think they're stretching the problem.  When they talk about pensions being 85% funded that's really not too bad.  

Now, Illinois is like 40% funded.  That's a problem, and a big one.  Chicago's pensions are at about 30% funded, which is a looming disaster.
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Sure, pension reform is absolutely necessary.  The federal government recognized this in the 1980s and are still making adjustments to the current system to stay solvent well into this century (right now funded through 2075).  Even the military system is undergoing changes now, so the only thing left is the Congressional retirement system.  I'm sure they will quickly fix that soon enough.  :mellow:

States and municipalities are recognizing the issue, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Florida and others have made strides in fixing their shortfalls.  Cities like Detroit were forced to because of bankruptcy, and that seems like the logical conclusion for the state of Illinois and Chicago.  I mean it's absolutely crazy that public employees are allowed to cross the 100% salary threshold and bring in 1.5X or more what they made when they worked.  I mean that's 3rd grade arithmetic, sooner or later that system is going to crash and burn. 

Happens in the private sector also.  My uncle worked 35 years for Delta and has been retired for almost a decade now.  When they filed for bankruptcy and then merged with Northwest they simply eliminated pilot pensions despite $2billion in the pension fund.  It has gone to court now, and I'm sure the pilots will recover some of their pensions, but Delta had promised pensions and had funded them for decades and then they went belly up and it was all gone.  My uncle and his family live well enough, but he paid into a system for three decades and then after he retires the company takes it all away.  Delta doing alright now, I think they owe their employees at least the amount that was in the pension system at the time of bankruptcy, and then some current and future profits. 

Same with federal, state, and municipalities.  At minimum workers need to get back at least what they paid in.  Social Security, cash me out now and let me roll it into my 401k and you'll never hear from me again.  But I want every cent I put in.  Do I expect as a Federal employee to lose some benefits down the line?  Sure, but I'd join the lobby to fight it tooth and nail.  Pension system is funded, my 401k is secure, and benefits are part of the overall federal budget.  States and municilaities need to employ tactics to be solvent not just five years from now, but 50 years from now.  Instead they wait until they are bankrupt because they don't want to fight the employees in court, and they can lay the burden on the taxpayers.  #### that, it's unethical and nefarious.  Make tough choices, implement long-term solutions, manage your checkbook. 

 
Tom Hagen said:
Be careful, I doubt that your rental income will qualify as earned income needed to make any type of IRA contribution. Real estate rental is normally not considered earned income unless you provide significant services such as running a hotel. A general rule of thumb is if it's not a W-2 and you aren't paying self employment tax it's not earned income.

Also, contributing to a Roth IRA does not impact your current year income tax which is what you were asking about.




 
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Thanks Tom - yes, I am mixing and matching things incorrectly here.

I want to do 2 things: 1) save on 2016 taxes;  2) start transferring money into a Roth IRA.

How can I do this?

- I was hoping to avoid taxes by moving money into a traditional IRA from various accounts non-IRA accounts I have (understanding whatever limits I have - $6.5K each?)

- Can I move my after-tax cash savings directly into a Roth - based on the annual limitations?   

 
To save on 2016 taxes you need to use traditional 401k/IRA money.  The Roth's have limits, $5.5k<50 and $6.5k>50 so that's what an individual can put in.  Roth is post tax, so you are contributing monies that have already been taxed.  The draw of the Roth is that that money can be withdrawn tax-free in retirement, the draw of the traditional is tax relief now. 

 
Doctor Detroit said:
To save on 2016 taxes you need to use traditional 401k/IRA money.  The Roth's have limits, $5.5k<50 and $6.5k>50 so that's what an individual can put in.  Roth is post tax, so you are contributing monies that have already been taxed.  The draw of the Roth is that that money can be withdrawn tax-free in retirement, the draw of the traditional is tax relief now. 




 
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Thanks DD.

 
Doctor Detroit said:
Sure, pension reform is absolutely necessary.  The federal government recognized this in the 1980s and are still making adjustments to the current system to stay solvent well into this century (right now funded through 2075).  Even the military system is undergoing changes now, so the only thing left is the Congressional retirement system.  I'm sure they will quickly fix that soon enough.  :mellow:

States and municipalities are recognizing the issue, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Florida and others have made strides in fixing their shortfalls.  Cities like Detroit were forced to because of bankruptcy, and that seems like the logical conclusion for the state of Illinois and Chicago.  I mean it's absolutely crazy that public employees are allowed to cross the 100% salary threshold and bring in 1.5X or more what they made when they worked.  I mean that's 3rd grade arithmetic, sooner or later that system is going to crash and burn.
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As a public employee in Mass. I dont understand this either. I know how it work just cant believe its allowed. We are not allowed to put OT towards our pensions. Just our base pay. 

There is always talk here of the unfunded pension liability but they only tell half the story. The pension fund grew so fast and there was so much money in it the cities and towns deferred their payments. For over 40 years. Thats not a typo. Not only did they not pay for over 40 years, they took dividends out.  Imagine if they just paid when they should we would never hear of any shortfalls. 

 
Sand said:
There is a difference between IRAs and 401ks - 401ks can hold a lot more funding, so seeing a 2M balance there can't be that unusual.  It is very unusual for an IRA.  What we've seen here is people setup a structure inside an IRA where "low value" private stocks are placed and they then explode in value when a company goes public.  Instant multi-millions in an IRA.  Now that's an abuse of the system, but the IRA rules allowed it.  To now go back and try to claw that money back when it was the dip####s who wrote the legislation who screwed up is pretty evil, as it sets a precedent that will eventually get to hitting average Americans.  
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True, contribution limits should limit the size of IRA's in most cases, but I don't think we are just talking about Mitt Romney size venture capital windfalls. I think it was just a few pages ago or maybe one of the other threads where there was a discussion on buying investment properties with an IRA outright. Plus, we are talking decades from now so there may be a significant portion of people (of course all us FBG's as well) that "hit it big" so to speak, or politicians tend to move the yardsticks. $2M today might be $1M in the political discussion a decade from now.

 
My biggest fear would have to be that I end up doing things right by contributing the max to my 403b and also a roth IRA, retire, and within a few years somehow end up in the same financial boat as people who never saved a dime. 

 
Don't Noonan said:
ghostguy123 said:
My biggest fear would have to be that I end up doing things right by contributing the max to my 403b and also a roth IRA, retire, and within a few years somehow end up in the same financial boat as people who never saved a dime. 
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Best vote Republican then
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Keep your political nonsense out of this thread, it's not appreciated here. 

 
ffjunk said:
As a public employee in Mass. I dont understand this either. I know how it work just cant believe its allowed. We are not allowed to put OT towards our pensions. Just our base pay. 

There is always talk here of the unfunded pension liability but they only tell half the story. The pension fund grew so fast and there was so much money in it the cities and towns deferred their payments. For over 40 years. Thats not a typo. Not only did they not pay for over 40 years, they took dividends out.  Imagine if they just paid when they should we would never hear of any shortfalls. 
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Yeah I'm not sure how government pension plans can ever get away with this, but they do because the politicians rob from Peter to pay Paul all over the place.  I didn't know some employees could count OT toward their pensions, I guess in Law Enforcement and in emergency response that could be part of the formula.  Other than that though, seems like a scam. 

 
Talking with a much older coworker of mine last night.  She tells me that her social security that she receives is decreased because she is working and making over a certain amount.

Say it ain't so?  That would be a new wrinkle to retirement I wasn't aware of.

 
ghostguy123 said:
Talking with a much older coworker of mine last night.  She tells me that her social security that she receives is decreased because she is working and making over a certain amount.

Say it ain't so?  That would be a new wrinkle to retirement I wasn't aware of.
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This only applies if you are collecting and have not reached full retirement age.

https://faq.ssa.gov/link/portal/34011/34019/article/3739/what-happens-if-i-work-and-get-social-security-retirement-benefits

 
ghostguy123 said:
Talking with a much older coworker of mine last night.  She tells me that her social security that she receives is decreased because she is working and making over a certain amount.

Say it ain't so?  That would be a new wrinkle to retirement I wasn't aware of.
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What happens if I work and get Social Security retirement benefits?


You can get Social Security retirement benefits and work at the same time. However, if you are younger than full retirement age and make more than the yearly earnings limit, we will reduce your benefit. Starting with the month you reach full retirement age, we will not reduce your benefits no matter how much you earn.

  • We use the following earnings limits to reduce your benefits: If you are under full retirement age for the entire year, we deduct $1 from your benefit payments for every $2 you earn above the annual limit.
For 2016 that limit is $15,720.

  • In the year you reach full retirement age, we deduct $1 in benefits for every $3 you earn above a different limit, but we only count earnings before the month you reach your full retirement age.
If you will reach full retirement age in 2016, the limit on your earnings for the months before full retirement age is $41,880.

Starting with the month you reach full retirement age, you can get your benefits with no limit on your earnings.

https://faq.ssa.gov/link/portal/34011/34019/article/3739/what-happens-if-i-work-and-get-social-security-retirement-benefits
 
Seriously guys, I see so many post here about what if this and imagine that. Love your life like that and you have a hard time walking past shadows. 

Pretty simple - save heavy, heavier than most, make a plan and execute, be nimble (aka diversity not only investments but source of investments) and don't live life scared 

 
wilked said:
Seriously guys, I see so many post here about what if this and imagine that. Love your life like that and you have a hard time walking past shadows. 

Pretty simple - save heavy, heavier than most, make a plan and execute, be nimble (aka diversity not only investments but source of investments) and don't live life scared 




 
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Wow - thanks wise monkey.

 
OK guys, I keep up with this thread, lots of great info, I could really use some info for my in-laws.

They are both 69, he's a retired telephone worker collecting a decent pension, she was a homemaker and they both are collecting SS.  I had very little knowledge of their finances until recently.  He took care of their finances and was recently diagnosed with Alzheimer's.  Over the last 2 years he was missing bills, making withdrawls from his IRA, lots of CC debt etc. A real mess.  My MIL recently took everything over and tonight she asked me to review everything, their assets/liabilities/bills etc.  She has gotten things straightened out but they are not necessarily in great financial shape.  Still owe on their house.  Based on the balance, I would guess 7-8 years left.  Uggh.  I went through all their assets/liabilities as she is meeting tomorrow with someone to talk to regarding what to do financially due to my FIL's Alzheimer's.  

Anyway, one thing I did get a look at is a Quarterly statement from Genworth Financial for a RetireReady Choice NY Variable Annunity. Based on my reading of this thread I am not so sure this is a good thing.  Can anyone explain what this exactly is?  Can it be cashed out into a regular IRA account?  Some details show Contract value, Hypothetical death benefit, Lifetime Income Plus 2008 rider benefit.  Also these optional programs and riders are selected: Systematic reset, Annual Step-Up Death Benefit Rider, Lifetime Income Plus 2008 Rider with Principal Protection Death Benefit.

It doesn't look like they have ever withdrawn anything from this but I have no idea what I am looking at.  All these different dollar values for withdrawl base, roll up value etc has me confused.  Can anyone shine some light on this for me?

Thanks for any help.

 
It's good that you're taking control and lending a hand and those are some good questions.  I'm not a financial advisor but you might look to hire a fee only one for this endeavor.  As far as I know a qualified variable annuity can be rolled into an IRA, but variable annuities generally have very strict transfer options and I think they pound you with exit fees.  I'm sure someone who posts here knows the answer, but again, I'd really think about a fee only fiduciary in this case.  Usually you can get all the advice you need and a solid plan for about $1k.  Good luck to you. 

Also one other thing, don't worry about what they owe on their house.  If the house is worth more than what they have left to pay, you're square. 

 
Doctor Detroit said:
It's good that you're taking control and lending a hand and those are some good questions.  I'm not a financial advisor but you might look to hire a fee only one for this endeavor.  As far as I know a qualified variable annuity can be rolled into an IRA, but variable annuities generally have very strict transfer options and I think they pound you with exit fees.  I'm sure someone who posts here knows the answer, but again, I'd really think about a fee only fiduciary in this case.  Usually you can get all the advice you need and a solid plan for about $1k.  Good luck to you. 

Also one other thing, don't worry about what they owe on their house.  If the house is worth more than what they have left to pay, you're square. 
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Thanks for the quick response.  They have a financial advisor already in which some of his 401K was transferred to based on some other investment paperwork I saw, but I don't think when they met with him previously they ever showed him this info.  This Annuity was bought in 2008 likely with some 401K funds when he retired, but I have no idea how long it has to be held before experiencing fees etc.  I think he should be able to help with figuring it out, but I was looking for some advice on the life insurance piece of this annunity because of the Alzheimer's and he is getting progressively worse.  Since this was originally 401K monies, maybe it would be worth it to hold onto this for the life insurance which would be tax free I believe.

House is worth more than what they owe, and based on their income and expenses it looks like they are holding their own now basically even and not tapping into any retirement monies lately.  Thanks for some reassurance on that.

 
A real concern I have is what happens to her when he passes.  I tried to find the paperwork from when he retired and what he selected as a survivor benefit for her.  I am sure he selected a smaller pension, but I do not know if he selected a 50/75/100% option.  She'll get that and then his SS, but lose hers, but her income will be less and I'm not sure if she'll be able to stay in the house.  We still have no idea what will happen to their assets when he eventually get placed in a facility but that's another issue entirely.

 
I'd contact the company/agency he retired from and explain the situation.  Have all his personal info available so they can give you the right answers.  Good thing is a survivor benefit is US law so your mom would have had to decline that benefit in writing to not qualify.  Most survivor benefits are reduced 25 to 50%, you'd have to see what they elected. 

Also if they have a finacial advisor then they should be able to help you with the annuity question.  I'd ask for an in-person meeting and get this #### in order, God knows you have other things to deal with in this very emotional ordeal.  If they can't help you, fire them and go somewhere else.  Seriously, this is no time for an advisor to be dicking you around. 

IMO annuities and whole life insurance generally stink.  Make sure the advisor is a fiduciary, ask him/her that question right off the bat.  If they aren't, move on.  In the long run this will save your family a lot of money. 

 
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