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PBS Frontline : The Retirement Gamble, sorta Must See (2 Viewers)

The New York Times did a series of reports on 403bs and the challenges they present for teachers, nurses, and others working for not for profit outfits.  Some of the stories of the fees and the fleecing by the administrators are :X

Good reading though, there are five total parts. 

As a result, the people who do the most good in the world, spending their careers helping others in exchange for modest paychecks, often get the worst retirement plans. In fact, millions of people who save in 403(b) plans may be losing nearly $10 billion each year in excessive investment fees, according to a recent analysis by Aon, a retirement consultant.

“It’s a wealth transfer from those who don’t know any better — Main Street — to those who do: Wall Street,” said Scott Dauenhauer, a financial planner who works with public schoolteachers and as a consultant to school plans. “What makes me the most angry is that public school employees are not protected the same as their private sector counterparts.”

Named for a section of the tax code, many 403(b) accounts are riddled with complicated, expensive investment products that can cost their owners tens of thousands of dollars, if not more, over their careers. The 403(b) accounts that many workers contribute to are not subject to the more stringent federal rules and consumer protections that apply to 401(k) plans. In fact, of the $879 billion in total 403(b) assets, more than half is not subject to federal retirement plan rules, according to Cerulli Associates, a research firm.

 
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If you are a customer of Wells Fargo, and one in every three American households is, get the #### out of there. 

What they did was as bad as big banks could possibly do, just close it and go to a credit union or really anywhere else. 

 
Can someone explain this to me? I know nothing about social security and have written it off as a loss. 

Ive basically maxed the ####er at 6.2% for the last decade, my wife doesn't work. Assume we have lots of money in a 401k & bank account at 62 (knock on wood) or whatever the age is - do I still collect? Would I be paid out less for having more money? Does my wife collect?

What about Medicaid or health insurance? Am I fully liable for that bill until I die.

 
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Interesting question.

When you are retired does a withdrawal from a 401k or 403b affect how much you get from social security?

I know "working" affects it, but what about those withdrawals?

 
Can someone explain this to me? I know nothing about social security and have written it off as a loss. Ive basically maxed the ####er at 6.2% for the last decade, my wife doesn't work. Assume we have lots of money in a 401k & bank account at 62 (knock on wood) or whatever the age is - do I still collect?
Sure, but you probably would want to wait until 67 in that scenario to receive your full benefit since you won't need the money.

Would I be paid out less for having more money?
No you'd be paid out the max benefit most likely, which is $2639 a month right now.

Does my wife collect?
Yes.  She might not work now but she needs just 40 quarters (10 years) of paying in over her lifetime to collect her own benefit, and/or she collects a spousal benefit which is normally about half of your benefit. 

What about Medicaid or health insurance? Am I fully liable for that bill until I die.
This is a "depends" questions.  Not that you'll be in Depends, but it's going to depend on a number of factors including where you are getting your health insurance at retirement age.  Normally people will start using Medicaid at 65 and use their primary health insurance as a supplement.  Depending on the state and coverage you are under will determine what you are entitled to, what is covered by Medicaid, and what you might be responsible for.  I wouldn't worry too much about this until I was five or so years from retirement since so much changes in medical care and various coverages. 

 
Yes.. usually in first 6 months of each year.  July this year.... then I am investing in low fee index funds.  Wondering if there are further tax tricks to play with this money.
If you are in a position to do so, depending ding on your medical health and needs, consider using a HSA as an investing vehicle.  

It's a very under-thought of option, yet it enjoys a triple tax advantage.  

Contributions are tax deductible. Interest gains are tax free.  Withdrawals for medical needs (for you or your spouse) are tax free.  

There is no mandatory age you must start pulling money out so it has the same attributes as a 401k except you don't have to monitor having too much money in it.  

Most employer HSAs will match some money too, giving you essentially free money that garners interest and growth.  

The keys are being able to be in a medical position to use one as a retirement vehicle and then treating it as one (put money in and don't touch it).  

 
I hate that student loan interest deduction and other educational credits/deductions are phased out due to income. All of the credits and deductions phase out right at the level where you'd hope to be after school. Meanwhile, you can't reduce AGI due to the fact you've got loans that need to be repaid.

As an example, you pick up a masters in statistics and manage to land a job making 90K, as a single filer, you don't get to deduct interest, you're not eligible for the Income base repayment. But, you're not making enough that money isn't a major issue.

Also, is there a bigger scam than WageWorks and others that service FSA/Transit pre-tax accounts? They keep all the cash that isn't used and turn benefits off for a myriad of reasons with no warning. The government should be managing these IRS programs, not letting a private company act as a de facto monopoly and make a killing. WageWorks has 30 million a month in revenue and almost a billion dollars of cash on hand from what amounts to legal stealing from those the FSA/Transit/Childcare tax advantaged programs were meant to help.

 
I hate that student loan interest deduction and other educational credits/deductions are phased out due to income. All of the credits and deductions phase out right at the level where you'd hope to be after school. Meanwhile, you can't reduce AGI due to the fact you've got loans that need to be repaid.

As an example, you pick up a masters in statistics and manage to land a job making 90K, as a single filer, you don't get to deduct interest, you're not eligible for the Income base repayment. But, you're not making enough that money isn't a major issue.

Also, is there a bigger scam than WageWorks and others that service FSA/Transit pre-tax accounts? They keep all the cash that isn't used and turn benefits off for a myriad of reasons with no warning. The government should be managing these IRS programs, not letting a private company act as a de facto monopoly and make a killing. WageWorks has 30 million a month in revenue and almost a billion dollars of cash on hand from what amounts to legal stealing from those the FSA/Transit/Childcare tax advantaged programs were meant to help.
Making $90,000.00 annually was percentile 85.8% in 2016.  This percentile ranged from $90,000.00 to $90,005.00 a year.

I am sure the other 85% of people feel a lot of sympathy for you...

 
I hate that student loan interest deduction and other educational credits/deductions are phased out due to income. All of the credits and deductions phase out right at the level where you'd hope to be after school. Meanwhile, you can't reduce AGI due to the fact you've got loans that need to be repaid.

As an example, you pick up a masters in statistics and manage to land a job making 90K, as a single filer, you don't get to deduct interest, you're not eligible for the Income base repayment. But, you're not making enough that money isn't a major issue.

Also, is there a bigger scam than WageWorks and others that service FSA/Transit pre-tax accounts? They keep all the cash that isn't used and turn benefits off for a myriad of reasons with no warning. The government should be managing these IRS programs, not letting a private company act as a de facto monopoly and make a killing. WageWorks has 30 million a month in revenue and almost a billion dollars of cash on hand from what amounts to legal stealing from those the FSA/Transit/Childcare tax advantaged programs were meant to help.
Making $90,000.00 annually was percentile 85.8% in 2016.  This percentile ranged from $90,000.00 to $90,005.00 a year.

I am sure the other 85% of people feel a lot of sympathy for you...
Yeah but he'll be able to hire a violin player to follow him around when he complains to the proletariat how unfortunate he is.  In your face other 85%! 

 
Yeah but he'll be able to hire a violin player to follow him around when he complains to the proletariat how unfortunate he is.  In your face other 85%! 
Yeah, but it does still seem to be a bit of an odd structure for incentives/disincentives.  From the government's standpoint, backing student loans makes sense because helping people get an education helps them get good paying jobs which leads to more money in the economy and more taxes being paid. But by phasing out the interest deduction on student loans, you are penalizing those people who were the best investments for the government, while protecting the deductions of those who were less successful investments, at least from a pure numbers perspective. 

 
Yeah but he'll be able to hire a violin player to follow him around when he complains to the proletariat how unfortunate he is.  In your face other 85%! 
Well I would, if I could deduct that 2500. That's at least 50 hours of sad songing.

There's no income cap on mortgage deductions up to $1,000,000. There's a fairly harsh phase out on the student loan interest deduction and it's capped at 2500.

Of course, a lot of mortgages are from private companies and a lot of student loans are from the government. One of these groups has better lobbyists.

The phaseout starts at 65000. That's somewhere between 60-65%, which is good, but isn't going to have you posting shirtless watch photos on FBG any time soon.

ETA- I realize that the 2500 deduction only really would save me about $900, but violin players aren't great at math so maybe I'll get lucky.

ETA(2)-I'm also just venting because we got a 5K bill from genetic testing when my wife was 3 months pregnant in the mail yesterday. My kid's 7 months old now.

 
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I make over $90k and know where to get a good violin player.  PM anytime.  :hifive:

Seriously though, sounds like you have a complaint there.  But the tax code is flawed and in need of an overhaul, if Trump can do that this all might be worth the trouble. 

 
ETA(2)-I'm also just venting because we got a 5K bill from genetic testing when my wife was 3 months pregnant in the mail yesterday. My kid's 7 months old now.
WTF? You need to get your insurance company involved or call them and fight that, that's ####### ridiculous - insurance wouldn't cover for my wife bc she wasn't old enough and the pregnancy was considered very low risk. We went ahead with the test anyways at 9 weeks for peace of mind, it was a Natera Panorama test and it cost a fraction of that.

 
It's these interest deductions and easy loans that are driving up tuition costs.

Interest deduction phaseout is not a disincentive for anyone. Literally no one is taking a lower salary income to gain the deduction. 

Youre pulling in $7.5k gross a month, again, taxpayers should not be propping you up. 

 
If you are a customer of Wells Fargo, and one in every three American households is, get the #### out of there. 

What they did was as bad as big banks could possibly do, just close it and go to a credit union or really anywhere else. 
I'm a Schwab shill, but I :wub: them. Very few people in 2016 need a physical bank with a smartphone. In their ETF's for my Roth IRA, I've got a weighted average management fee of 0.06%. Completely free checking with mobile deposit and all ATM fees reimbursed. In the rare instance I have enough cash on hand that I need to put into the account, I buy a money order for less than $2.00 and mobile deposit it. In an emergency I could drive to a Schwab store front if I needed to. In terms of "the PITA of switching checking accounts," just set it up and migrate direct deposit and bill pay over slowly but surely, it's not splitting the atom. I have little to no sympathy when people complain about brick and mortar bank fees with all of the options similar to a Schwab setup out there for consumer banking.

 
ETA(2)-I'm also just venting because we got a 5K bill from genetic testing when my wife was 3 months pregnant in the mail yesterday. My kid's 7 months old now.
You should be able to talk this down to around $100 - $250.

Call the office that tested you, they should have warned you, and they will have a number for you to call.  Your doctor did a poor job of proving medical necessity to your insurance.

The lab I work with/sell for will go down to $100 at your income level. :yes:

 
WTF? You need to get your insurance company involved or call them and fight that, that's ####### ridiculous - insurance wouldn't cover for my wife bc she wasn't old enough and the pregnancy was considered very low risk. We went ahead with the test anyways at 9 weeks for peace of mind, it was a Natera Panorama test and it cost a fraction of that.
That's exactly who the bill is from. We've gone through two different providers since the date of service. Just a clusterf.

 
That's exactly who the bill is from. We've gone through two different providers since the date of service. Just a clusterf.
Read mine above.. give your doctor hell.  These tests are all about providing/proving medical necessity to the insurance company.  They should know better.

Oof - I hear about Natera daily.  You will get the bill down but you will have to jump through several hoops first.

 
Great article I read on Bloomberg related to individual investors and financial advice. Key takeaways bolded: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-08-25/maybe-you-re-not-as-stupid-as-your-financial-adviser-thinks

Are You as Stupid as Your Financial Adviser Thinks?



We underperform the very mutual funds we invest in by some four percentage points a year, according to one reckoning. But what’s the math behind that, and do we really need the pros?

by Ben Steverman


August 25, 2016 — 6:00 AM EDT



Investors need to be saved from themselves.

That’s the conventional wisdom, and there’s some truth to it. Individual investors can have comically bad timing. They buy when stock prices are high. They panic and sell when markets plunge. They invest with the hot mutual fund managers just as the managers' luck runs out.

And what's their reward? They supposedly underperform the very mutual funds they invest in by some four percentage points a year, or more, according to an annual study by the research firm Dalbar. 

If we're acting that foolishly, clearly we should be handing our money over to professional financial advisers. Even if the pros charge us 1 percent or more a year in fees, we'll come out ahead, right?

Independent experts aren't sold.

Look at the sheer amount of investor bungling that Dalbar calculates each year in its Quantitative Analysis of Investor Behavior, or QAIB. Last year, the report said, the average equity mutual fund investor underperformed the S&P 500 index by 3.7 percentage points. Over the past 30 years, the QAIB finds, stock fund investors lagged behind the market by an average of 6.7 points a year. 

To some, those numbers seem way too high. “The Dalbar analysis has a kernel of truth but almost certainly overstates the bad market timing of individual investors,” says Brad Barber, a finance professor at the University of California at Davis. A recent article by mathematician Michael Edesess argues that Dalbar’s conclusions can’t be used to demonstrate the folly of individual investors. Yet, he says, financial advisers routinely use it to justify high fees.

“This is not science and it is not logic,” Edesess wrote last month. “It is hasty interpretation of mathematical and empirical results in order to feed the need for marketing arguments or talking points.”

Clients do need help, says Edward Gjertsen II, the chairman of the Financial Planning Association, but they should choose their financial adviser carefully. Make sure the adviser is a fiduciary—legally required to put your interests first—and seek out advisers and planners who aren't just good at selling investments. They should help you set broader financial goals and decide between such priorities as buying real estate and paying down debt

There are two ways to calculate investment returns. There are the performance figures that a mutual fund posts in any period. That's the fund's total return minus its expenses. Then there’s the performance that the investors in that fund actually experience over time. This can be calculated by looking at the money they put into the fund and take out of it on a daily, weekly, or monthly basis. 

Inevitably there's going to be a gap between the two, because it’s rare for an investor to put money in a fund and never touch it again. Workers are constantly putting more money in their 401(k)s, while retirees spend down their investments.

Investment research firms such as Dalbar and the giant Morningstar look at these flows and conclude that investors are hurting themselves with bad timing. Edesess argues that the gap they identify could have just as much to do with factors outside of investors’ control—such as what’s happening in the market or when people have the money to invest.

A young worker who started a job and a 401(k) in the past several years will look as though she had spectacular timing, because markets have surged since 2009. But what about an older worker who started investing with a generous 401(k) in the early 2000s and in 2007 lost that job shortly before the recession hit? He’ll look as if he had terrible timing, because market returns were so mediocre in the early 2000s and he missed out on buying stocks at the 2008-09 lows.

“The upshot,” Edesess says, is “we do not really know that the typical or average investor underperforms because of bad market timing.”

And it’s impossible to check Dalbar’s math, because the firm won’t share its formula.

“As soon as that formula hits the public domain, its value evaporates,” says Dalbar’s president and chief executive officer, Louis Harvey. 1

Harvey says the QAIB makes sophisticated estimates designed to capture “the difference between what a fund pays out in return and what an investor perceives it to be.” The result is a “net effect” of all investor behavior, he says, “recognizing full well that it’s a very simplified view of what’s going on in the market.”

Huh? say some researchers. “I have been genuinely puzzled about their calculation, because it just does not make sense to me, at least from what they sent to me when requested,” says Emory University accounting professor Ilia Dichev.

Morningstar does a similar analysis but is much more transparent about its methodology and finds a much narrower gap between what investments reportedly earn and the return investors actually receive. Its 2016 “Mind the Gap” report finds that over the past 10 years, “investors cost themselves from 0.74 percent to as much as 1.32 percent per year by mistiming their purchases and sales.” That’s about a third of the gap that Dalbar finds over the same time period.

Both Dalbar's and Morningstar’s reports are used to suggest that individuals are too emotional and impulsive to manage investments on their own. Dalbar's Harvey says this is largely the right conclusion to draw. 

“It is fairly clear that investors can use help in their investment decisions—whether that help comes from an adviser, a robo-adviser, or a parent, or friend,” he says. 

Morningstar’s Russel Kinnel observes that in 2009, while stocks were hitting their lowest prices in a decade, investors pulled $16 billion from U.S. stock funds and put $291 billion into bond funds. “There is a large body of research demonstrating that individual investors make poor market-timing decisions,” he says. 

Academic research does suggest investors have poor timing. Studies show they underperform their investments by one to one-and-a-half percentage points a year, Emory’s Dichev says.

But it’s not clear that individual investors are any worse at timing than the pros. Hedge funds, mutual fund managers, and institutional investors all have trouble.

Well-paid hedge fund managers have lagged the market in recent years. Dichev and Harvard University professor Gwen Yu found in a 2011 study that investors in those hedge funds, who tend to be large, sophisticated institutions or wealthy individuals, experienced actual returns that were three to seven percentage points lower than the official fund returns.

“ ‘Bad’ timing is strongly built into the system, and personal advisers are probably prone to it as well,” Dichev says.

Financial advisers can even make their clients perform worse, if they charge high fees or move money around to maximize commissions. “Hiring an adviser is probably the worst mistake they can make, if it’s an expensive adviser,” Edesess says.

"People should be seeking more than just investment advice. They should be seeking financial advice," says Gjertsen, of the Financial Planning Association, who is vice president at Mack Investment Securities in Glenview, Ill.

Even if researchers can’t agree on the size or the causes of the gap, it’s real. And whether you work with an adviser or invest on your own, there’s only one way to close it: Buy and hold on for the ride, while keeping fees as low as possible.

 
Half of your retirement money is handed to you in cash (can't rollover into IRA/rothIRA because of contribution maximums) You have half of that amount (of the money handed to you) left to pay off on a mortgage (let's say at 3.5%) and another equal amount owed on a low 1.5% loan such that you could spend all the cash handed to you to be 100% debt free. What do you do with that cash to get the best return to retire in 10 years or less?  

@Ignoratio Elenchi  I know you're a math and problem solver wiz, not sure about finance, but could use your help. 

@NewlyRetired

 
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Looking for a little advice. My girlfriend just rolled over her old 401K into an IRA, and has a small ROTH. I'll be helping her with those.

She has an LLC for which she is the only employee. Her LLC pays her individual self an annual salary of around 60K. We want to maximize her tax savings for her business, as well as get her retirement ramped up - she's behind the 8 ball there. The old 401K (now an IRA) will likely stay as is, other than our management of it. We figure we should max out her ROTH every year, though, as long as she's eligible.

As far as her business - should we set up a 401K plan? I've done some reading, and it looks like her business would receive a tax benefit with the contributions it makes into her account, and she would obviously get the tax benefit as an individual for her contributions. Is it really that simple or am I missing something? Any other thoughts there?

 
Looking for a little advice. My girlfriend just rolled over her old 401K into an IRA, and has a small ROTH. I'll be helping her with those.

She has an LLC for which she is the only employee. Her LLC pays her individual self an annual salary of around 60K. We want to maximize her tax savings for her business, as well as get her retirement ramped up - she's behind the 8 ball there. The old 401K (now an IRA) will likely stay as is, other than our management of it. We figure we should max out her ROTH every year, though, as long as she's eligible.

As far as her business - should we set up a 401K plan? I've done some reading, and it looks like her business would receive a tax benefit with the contributions it makes into her account, and she would obviously get the tax benefit as an individual for her contributions. Is it really that simple or am I missing something? Any other thoughts there?
Look into the Individual 401Kmore info

 
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Thanks. Although, I don't think this would work since she technically has 1 employee, even though it's herself (the LLC actually generates a W-2 for her.) That link says the individual 401K is designed for a sole proprietor with no employees (which her business is not - it's an LLC with one employee). 
Not sure if you saw it, but in the 2nd link I added:

Solo 401(k), (also known as a Self Employed 401(k) or Individual 401(k)), is a 401(k) qualified retirement plan for Americans that was designed specifically for employers with no full-time employees other than the business owner(s) and their spouse(s).

 
Not sure if you saw it, but in the 2nd link I added:

Solo 401(k), (also known as a Self Employed 401(k) or Individual 401(k)), is a 401(k) qualified retirement plan for Americans that was designed specifically for employers with no full-time employees other than the business owner(s) and their spouse(s).
Oh, no I didn't. This looks promising! It looks like she may get to skip ERISA this way. 

I love this damn board sometimes.

 
Half of your retirement money is handed to you in cash (can't rollover into IRA/rothIRA because of contribution maximums) You have half of that amount (of the money handed to you) left to pay off on a mortgage (let's say at 3.5%) and another equal amount owed on a low 1.5% loan such that you could spend all the cash handed to you to be 100% debt free. What do you do with that cash to get the best return to retire in 10 years or less?  

@Ignoratio Elenchi  I know you're a math and problem solver wiz, not sure about finance, but could use your help. 

@NewlyRetired
This is not really a math question per say.  Unless you have the ability to predict the future market returns there is no one right answer.

If you pay off the mortgage and loans you will have a gauranteed return rate (removing liability is the same as making money).   You need to look at the guaranteed return rate and then decide whether you think you could do better by investing.   No one can make that decision for you though because no one can predict the future.  The swings can be too great.

Let me give you a personal example.

In the very late 1990's my wife and I had a suplus of cash that we needed to decide what to do with.  I wanted to keep pumping money into the red hot market.  My wife wanted to pay off our mortage.  All my friends laughed at me for even half considering what my wife wanted because they were looking at 20% returns in the market.  In the end my wife convinced me to take the safe route and we paid off our mortgage and then 6 months later the market crashed.

 
Oh, no I didn't. This looks promising! It looks like she may get to skip ERISA this way. 

I love this damn board sometimes.
Yeah- as with all financial choices, it's not a fit for everyone, but it's a pretty sweet option for those who can use it. You can sock away a lot of money and it really isn't much more complicated than an IRA once you get it set up.

 
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This is not really a math question per say.  Unless you have the ability to predict the future market returns there is no one right answer.

If you pay off the mortgage and loans you will have a gauranteed return rate (removing liability is the same as making money).   You need to look at the guaranteed return rate and then decide whether you think you could do better by investing.   No one can make that decision for you though because no one can predict the future.  The swings can be too great.

Let me give you a personal example.

In the very late 1990's my wife and I had a suplus of cash that we needed to decide what to do with.  I wanted to keep pumping money into the red hot market.  My wife wanted to pay off our mortage.  All my friends laughed at me for even half considering what my wife wanted because they were looking at 20% returns in the market.  In the end my wife convinced me to take the safe route and we paid off our mortgage and then 6 months later the market crashed.
Thanks, that all makes sense. I'm thinking of going half and half; pay off the mortgage and then investing the rest instead of paying off the lower rate loan. 

Anything other than the stock market that might have a chance to see a decent return in just 10 years?

 
Thanks, that all makes sense. I'm thinking of going half and half; pay off the mortgage and then investing the rest instead of paying off the lower rate loan. 

Anything other than the stock market that might have a chance to see a decent return in just 10 years?
:LHUCKS:  

Gold, baby, GOLD!

/:LHUCKS:

 
Thanks, that all makes sense. I'm thinking of going half and half; pay off the mortgage and then investing the rest instead of paying off the lower rate loan. 

Anything other than the stock market that might have a chance to see a decent return in just 10 years?
I like the half and half plan.  You hedge a bit both ways.  The loan is so small you really should be able to carry that with little worry.

In terms of other investments outside of stocks, it would depend on what type of return you are looking for.

My advice would be to figure out what nest egg you need if you want to retire in 10 years.  The nest egg will be determined by your spending needs in retirement and how long you intend to live.

Once you determine what size your nest egg needs to be, you can compare that to what you have today and then you can see what type of growth rate you need to get to the nest egg size.

The growth rate will then help you determine if you have to look for higher rate of returns investment (more risky) or lower rate of returns investments (less risky) over the ten year period.

 
@Plorfu - your situation is a little confusing to me.  Is she the 100% owner of the LLC?  Or is the LLC owned by someone else and she's the only W-2 employee?

ETA - if she's a 100% owner of the LLC, and the LLC is taxed as a disregarded entity (most likely the most beneficial tax situation for her), the LLC shouldn't be issuing her a W-2.

 
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@Plorfu - your situation is a little confusing to me.  Is she the 100% owner of the LLC?  Or is the LLC owned by someone else and she's the only W-2 employee?

ETA - if she's a 100% owner of the LLC, and the LLC is taxed as a disregarded entity (most likely the most beneficial tax situation for her), the LLC shouldn't be issuing her a W-2.
So, she is 100% owner of the LLC herself. She then pays herself as the only employee, and issues herself (as the LLC) a W2 (to herself, as an individual.) She is the only only one involved.

She was advised to set it up this way to save on SS/Medicare taxes, so if you're prepared to tell me this is stupid we're willing to listen! She fired the tax guy who gave her this advice for other reasons, so it's possible it was bad advice. I don't know what a disregarded entity is - she says the LLC is taxed as an S-Corp.

 
So, she is 100% owner of the LLC herself. She then pays herself as the only employee, and issues herself (as the LLC) a W2 (to herself, as an individual.) She is the only only one involved.

She was advised to set it up this way to save on SS/Medicare taxes, so if you're prepared to tell me this is stupid we're willing to listen! She fired the tax guy who gave her this advice for other reasons, so it's possible it was bad advice. I don't know what a disregarded entity is - she says the LLC is taxed as an S-Corp.
If the LLC is taxed as an S-Corp, it would issue her a W-2, that is correct.

By electing to be taxed as an S-Corp, she could potentially save some SS/Medicare taxes, that is correct, but it creates additional paperwork requirements.  You have to file additional returns - S-Corp tax returns and quarterly payroll tax returns, both of which would be avoided in her situation if she didn't elect S-Corp status.  S-Corps avoiding SS/Medicare taxes are a bit of a sticking point with the IRS, she is required to pay herself a fair salary annually out of the S-Corp.  "Fair salary" is very gray.  Without having her full details and numbers, it's impossible whether to say if it was a good or bad decision to elect S-Corp status.  There are other potential drawbacks of being an S-Corp that I won't get into.

To get back to your 401k question, if she makes enough money in the business that retirement planning is an active concern, she will have plenty of options as the business-owner.  Running a 401k herself, especially if she is considering ever hiring other employees in the future, can be cumbersome; it is a lot more cumbersome than an IRA, for example.  Obviously you are opening up additional contributions and can save a lot more money, so the additional compliance requirements may be worth it depending on how much she can put away.  I would recommend that she find a new accountant to look at her situation and advise what is best for her.  Depending on how much she makes, her recommended options could be vastly different - there may be more options than just 401k at play here.

 
@Steve Tasker Thanks. All of that sounds right. And she also won't likely ever hire any employees. If she ever needs to farm out work, she'll 1099 them (It's a research/evaluation consultancy for behavioral health interventions - a data nerd, basically.) 

She is going to meet with an accountant this month, so she'll go armed with some good questions and at least a decent idea of what she wants to accomplish.

 
Half of your retirement money is handed to you in cash (can't rollover into IRA/rothIRA because of contribution maximums) You have half of that amount (of the money handed to you) left to pay off on a mortgage (let's say at 3.5%) and another equal amount owed on a low 1.5% loan such that you could spend all the cash handed to you to be 100% debt free. What do you do with that cash to get the best return to retire in 10 years or less?  

@Ignoratio Elenchi  I know you're a math and problem solver wiz, not sure about finance, but could use your help. 

@NewlyRetired
Just saw this but NewlyRetired pretty much said everything I would have said anyway.  Less than 10 years is a relatively short window - conventional wisdom would say you're going to beat 3.5% in the market over the long run, but that's not at all a certainty in the shorter term obviously.  I like the idea of half and half - paying off the mortgage is a guaranteed return, plus there's some intangible value to having the house paid off I think.  I wouldn't pay off the 1.5% loan, that's a great rate.  It's been a while since I've paid really close attention to this kind of stuff but I'm pretty sure you can beat that with low-risk investments.  

Not to go too far off on a tangent but there does come a point where you start nickel-and-diming these things though, I used to participate in personal finance discussions on another board and people would go nuts over, say, the proper order to snowball debts.  Some people prefer a Dave Ramsey type approach where you pay off small balances first to have them done with.  Depending on the interest rates, that's often mathematically suboptimal, and people would get lambasted for suggesting it.  But if you actually did the math, it often worked out that the Ramsey approach was worse, but only worse by a pretty insignificant amount of money, and the math didn't account for the psychological strain of debt, etc.  All of that is to say, even if we did know the future of the market (which we don't), sometimes it just feels good to pay off those debts, it's the kind of thing you can't really put a price on (even though technically you can :)  ).  That's the kind of thing only you can answer for yourself. 

 
I know its not correct to include your primary residence as an investment, but you do include it in your net worth don't you?  

 
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I know its not correct to include your primary residence as an investment, but you do include it in your net worth don't you?  
I do. The problem is that it's not liquid so it's hard to count it. But I figure there might come a time when I sell it and cruise around in a motor home.

 
I know its not correct to include your primary residence as an investment, but you do include it in your net worth don't you?  
Most certainly, I do at least in my personal Statement of Net Assets that I do every month. I bought an apartment in May 2008, so not reflecting the approximate loss with the information available to come to a pretty close/good faith estimate of the loss I'm sitting on while I rent my residence out and avoid realizing it (I moved, worked out to where my new rent washes with the net rental of my purchased apartment) would be overstating my net assets.

ETA: To expand upon that, I calculate the loss as: FMV @ end of the month less 6% selling fee less remaining mortgage balance less down payment. Makes me cry a little/throw up in my mouth a little every month, but I feel that it's absolutely critical to be honest with yourself with this stuff. I'm too lazy to calculate closing fees every month too, but I feel like just giving myself my financial ballpark every month, that's pretty fair. Compared to gen pop, I'm good with it.

 
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Curious to hear the collective's thoughts on this:

I created a 529 plan for my son's college fund when he was born. Nothing too exciting in that regard. Contributions for him have been consistent and generous from my family. The basic plan for the plan was to adjust and rebalance as he got older. Pretty much like any other target fund in that regard. In effect, set it and forget it. This is great!

Well, between the contributions and the market, the 529 has a ####-ton of value right now. I know college is expensive - likely not going to get any cheaper really - so I'm not entirely satisfied with putting a cap on its value. But rather I want to protect the value of it right now. As it stands, it's built on the premise that it's going to take 18-20 years to reach that $$$ goal. As it stands, that timeline is pretty much cut in half. Would it make sense for me to rebalance it to protect its value, like it would be nearing full maturation? Maybe switch it to a more conservative instead of a aggressive growth strategy? Follow that with a second plan that still allows for growth? I just don't want to lose the value and gains of the current plan.

Thanks!

 
Curious to hear the collective's thoughts on this:

I created a 529 plan for my son's college fund when he was born. Nothing too exciting in that regard. Contributions for him have been consistent and generous from my family. The basic plan for the plan was to adjust and rebalance as he got older. Pretty much like any other target fund in that regard. In effect, set it and forget it. This is great!

Well, between the contributions and the market, the 529 has a ####-ton of value right now. I know college is expensive - likely not going to get any cheaper really - so I'm not entirely satisfied with putting a cap on its value. But rather I want to protect the value of it right now. As it stands, it's built on the premise that it's going to take 18-20 years to reach that $$$ goal. As it stands, that timeline is pretty much cut in half. Would it make sense for me to rebalance it to protect its value, like it would be nearing full maturation? Maybe switch it to a more conservative instead of a aggressive growth strategy? Follow that with a second plan that still allows for growth? I just don't want to lose the value and gains of the current plan.

Thanks!
How many years from college is your son?

 
There are better financial experts than me in here, but no way do I start trying to time the market when I've got a 10+ year horizon.

 
Curious to hear the collective's thoughts on this:

I created a 529 plan for my son's college fund when he was born. Nothing too exciting in that regard. Contributions for him have been consistent and generous from my family. The basic plan for the plan was to adjust and rebalance as he got older. Pretty much like any other target fund in that regard. In effect, set it and forget it. This is great!

Well, between the contributions and the market, the 529 has a ####-ton of value right now. I know college is expensive - likely not going to get any cheaper really - so I'm not entirely satisfied with putting a cap on its value. But rather I want to protect the value of it right now. As it stands, it's built on the premise that it's going to take 18-20 years to reach that $$$ goal. As it stands, that timeline is pretty much cut in half. Would it make sense for me to rebalance it to protect its value, like it would be nearing full maturation? Maybe switch it to a more conservative instead of a aggressive growth strategy? Follow that with a second plan that still allows for growth? I just don't want to lose the value and gains of the current plan.

Thanks!
Only way I would look at rebalancing this far out is if you think you have at least 75% (just a number than felt right) of the all in college cost covered.  

 
I like the half and half plan.  You hedge a bit both ways.  The loan is so small you really should be able to carry that with little worry.

In terms of other investments outside of stocks, it would depend on what type of return you are looking for.

My advice would be to figure out what nest egg you need if you want to retire in 10 years.  The nest egg will be determined by your spending needs in retirement and how long you intend to live.

Once you determine what size your nest egg needs to be, you can compare that to what you have today and then you can see what type of growth rate you need to get to the nest egg size.

The growth rate will then help you determine if you have to look for higher rate of returns investment (more risky) or lower rate of returns investments (less risky) over the ten year period.
That's been our issue.  Plan A is to retire at 60, have a beach house we live in from October-April, another house in Tennessee we live in the rest the year while renting out our beach house.  Plan B is to live in this house (Alabama) and keep a cabin in Tennessee. I'm almost 100% sure we'll meet plan b even if the market is flat, but plan A requires a nice return.  So we stay heavily in Stock.  

 
Curious to hear the collective's thoughts on this:

I created a 529 plan for my son's college fund when he was born. Nothing too exciting in that regard. Contributions for him have been consistent and generous from my family. The basic plan for the plan was to adjust and rebalance as he got older. Pretty much like any other target fund in that regard. In effect, set it and forget it. This is great!

Well, between the contributions and the market, the 529 has a ####-ton of value right now. I know college is expensive - likely not going to get any cheaper really - so I'm not entirely satisfied with putting a cap on its value. But rather I want to protect the value of it right now. As it stands, it's built on the premise that it's going to take 18-20 years to reach that $$$ goal. As it stands, that timeline is pretty much cut in half. Would it make sense for me to rebalance it to protect its value, like it would be nearing full maturation? Maybe switch it to a more conservative instead of a aggressive growth strategy? Follow that with a second plan that still allows for growth? I just don't want to lose the value and gains of the current plan.

Thanks!
Like others, I agree it is extremely unlikely you are going to make the right guess here if the time till college is many many years away.

What are you projecting for college costs when your son enters his freshman year?

 

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