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I bet all those people who named their daughters  “Khaleesi” feel kinda dumb right now.

Why do people say the Arya thing is fan service? That’s so ### #### lazy. They spent 7 ####ing seasons working up to that. Pay attention. 

Let's talk about danny. First, she was nothing without her claim to the throne.  She was raised by her ######## brother to think that was the only thing that mattered. Episode 1 he starts out by

Not getting the big deal in regards to the Sansa outrage. So she got porked on her wedding night?.....big deal. Yeah, it's a bit weird that Reek was forced to watch.....but it's not like he was forced to join...

Yeah I agree with this. Was she really raped? They were married and they had to consumate the marriage. Sure, she wasnt thrilled with the idea but the whole marriage is a sham. Same thing happened to Dany and nobody said boo.

Yes she was raped.

People were upset about Dany too, but it was different here and the emotions run deeper. You don't see any differences in the situations?

What's the difference? IIRC, Dany's was an arranged marriage where she had no desire to marry Drogo........and like Sansa, she was in no real position to deny consummation.

I get that conversation in regards to Tyrion not forcing his dwarf sized #### unto her was a set up to A) make us feel sorry for Sansa, B) show that Ramsey's not very nice and C) Tyrion was pretty nice.... but in the end...the fervor over Sansa's porking doesn't warrant the actual thing that happened.

Any chance that the closing scene continues into the next episode?

I can see Reek hitting his breaking point and jumping in there to at least try to off Ramsey, even if it would disrupt the intricate plot arc little finger conceived.

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Wait, Ramsay is Jon Snow's brother?

No. They are both bastards who were given the last name Snow. I was reading in the 4th book last night that a common bastard name was "Water". While it did not say, my guess is that would be a bastard name used in a seaside town. Likewise, "Snow" would be a good bastard name in the North.

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I assume there are 2 or 3 episodes left. It's not like there are a ton of things to tie off in this season.

Dany meets up with the imp and his dong and feeds him to the dragons or not, Jorah seems destined for fighting pits with his stone skin.

Bolton v. Firetits and Sansa tie off

Jamie situation in Dorne

Cersi and her zealots vs. pancaketits and brah

Arya finishes mopping the floor or doesn't she?

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So Ice and Fire? Starks and Targaryens?

I really like that. If that was Martin's end game with the name it makes for a really good story and also gives you some sense of hope with Dany.

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We all should come to terms that best of the show is behind us. It will still be entertaining, have big moments and blow away every show in its cinematic quality production, sound, music, costume and set design.

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Buckychudd, on 19 May 2015 - 10:36 AM, said:
Thunderlips, on 19 May 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

I get that conversation in regards to Tyrion not forcing his dwarf sized #### unto her

Apparently it isn't dwarf sized....he has to go to a #### merchant.

IIRC, he made reference to this in the very first episode, didn't he? "The Gods have blessed me..."

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Arya finishes mopping the floor or doesn't she?

My money is on her getting a promotion to washing lettuce, then she'll be on fries, and someday, they let her work the grill.

she was pretty good as the bartender. the only problem is they don't get a lot of repeat customers.

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Buckychudd, on 19 May 2015 - 10:36 AM, said:
Thunderlips, on 19 May 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

I get that conversation in regards to Tyrion not forcing his dwarf sized #### unto her

Apparently it isn't dwarf sized....he has to go to a #### merchant.

IIRC, he made reference to this in the very first episode, didn't he? "The Gods have blessed me..."

He's no Podrick Payne

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Littlefinger is so good at this. Fun to watch him work. How about instead of the Nights of the Veil effing up my business.. they leave and win me the north instead?

For me Ramsey finally overtakes Cercei as who I most want to see get theirs.

not sure you understand who the Knights of the Vale are....

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_small/0/4/21333-3417-23786-1-nightveil.jpg

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I liked it. I think this season has been tremendous. They are building tension everywhere without the typical battle and war type stuff that they could use. The game of the thrones is just as much about the deplorable acts taken by the powerful families against each other in a cold war then it is simple battle after battle after battle. And the psychological aspects of this season are far beyond the prior seasons.

This entire episode was about lying. Using lies, telling lies, suffering from lies, and so on. The most important moment of the show wasn't anything anyone is talking about, it's the scene with the girl and Arya in the body cleaning room when she tells Arya her story, and then ends it by saying, "Was that a lie?" That, I think (or at least how I'm taking it) is the thread of this season, and very much this episode. There are so many lies, so many half truths, and so many interweaving stories for so many characters and all of it right down to the core is built on one lie after another.

Arya is still the 1A character on the show. That girl can act and the character is a great character. Her whole part of this episode was part of the learning process she had to ensure to take the next step with the Faceless men. And I think the lesson there was not that "I am nobody" means that she really has no identiy and can be built into something. I think what it is supposed to mean that by being nobody she can be anybody. She can't cling to her own story because she has to be all stories. She can be a lady, an orphan, etc. etc. That face room scene was amazing. The camera work in this show is brilliant.

Tyrion is still the best. In every possible way. Peter Dinklage is putting on an acting clinic in this show the likes of which I don't think television has seen in a great long time if ever. Every moment is brilliant, every emotion is real, every line is perfectly delivered.

Sansa. So reading spoilers like I do this was coming. The guy playing Theon stole that scene though. You really felt every bit of his pain and saw all the emotions he suffered in those last shots. I will admit that I was ready for him to just pick up a knife and kill the guy before Sansa had to suffer, but the ending was fine by me. Sansa character is getting better and better too. She has some acting chops as well.

I think we are all assuming that Littlefinger wants Sansa. I'm not so sure anymore. He told us who he was when he and Varys were matching wits in the throne room 3 years ago - he is an agent of chaos so long as that chaos results in him gaining more power and one day sitting on that throne. It was the noble families that declared him nothing as a child and he had to work his way out of that. I'm not so sure he has any love for anyone except himself, Sansa included. She was just a perfect means to an end. And given that we have to assume that all his schemes from Eddard Stark right to now have pretty much worked the way he wanted them to, he had to know the result of his talk with Cersei. And if that is the case, then his plan is a pretty good one. He has the Vayle take over the north in doing so he has destroyed the Baratheons once and for all and the Boltons who no one likes anyway. Sansa will ally herself with him thereby giving him the legitimacy in the North with the people while at the same time having the backing of the crown.

Cersei is in for a really really really rude awakening soon. She can't control what she let loose. We have to assume she knew this was going to happen, but in allowing it to happen she just destroyed her only alliance and let the religious zealots take over King's Landing. The only really good story line for that city is abject civil war at this point. It's definately a powder keg.

Missed Jon Snow this episode.

There is a ton of convergence that needs to happen in the next 4 episodes. I'd be willing to bet that all the people that want more action are going to pleased because there has to be some - and I would say a lot.

Didn't miss Dany at all. Hopefully they figure out a way to make her story worthwhile again.

I pretty much agree with everything you said, but I don't get the impression that he cares about Sansa at all. He is just using her as a hedge to make sure that no matter what happens in the North he is in a position of power.

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Not getting the big deal in regards to the Sansa outrage. So she got porked on her wedding night?.....big deal. Yeah, it's a bit weird that Reek was forced to watch.....but it's not like he was forced to join...

Yeah I agree with this. Was she really raped? They were married and they had to consumate the marriage. Sure, she wasnt thrilled with the idea but the whole marriage is a sham. Same thing happened to Dany and nobody said boo.

Yes she was raped.

People were upset about Dany too, but it was different here and the emotions run deeper. You don't see any differences in the situations?

What's the difference? IIRC, Dany's was an arranged marriage where she had no desire to marry Drogo........and like Sansa, she was in no real position to deny consummation.

I get that conversation in regards to Tyrion not forcing his dwarf sized #### unto her was a set up to A) make us feel sorry for Sansa, B) show that Ramsey's not very nice and C) Tyrion was pretty nice.... but in the end...the fervor over Sansa's porking doesn't warrant the actual thing that happened.

ETA: as I'm expecting the dogs to be involved or Ramsey forcing Reek to be one half of a finger-cuff or something like that......

Sorry, forgot about this post and now this discussion is carrying on in two threads, but I think it is an important one, so here goes:

IMO there are quite a few differences between the two from an emotional standpoint (I think they are similar and both rape), and I get people being upset by it. Differences are:

- Dany was one of the first couple episodes I believe. No time for emotional attachment to Dany. PLUS, I think they did a smart thing by showing Khal Drogo's lifestyle, and there was a scene at the wedding where they just jumped in an banged a woman. Maybe it was more acceptable to people because they showed Drogo as not knowing any better and that was the lifestyle. I still remember it upsetting people though.

- As I said in the other thread, we have seen Sansa grow up over the last 5 years, and the emotional attachment runs a lot deeper with her

- The show has gone to the rape thing too many times, and it is lazy. I think the Jamie/Cersei scene last year really got to a lot of people, and now this. Seems like the only thing they can think of to put a woman in peril is to have her raped or have that as a threat. It is like they are trying to meet a quota of a rape a year or something. I assume the point was to have an event that pushes Reek and/or Sansa to snap and this was what they came up with. Could have gotten there without having to resort yet again to rape. Again from the other thread - maybe Ramsey punishes Sansa for something Reek did at the wedding by flaying a finger or something like that.

- I think people had the impression that Reek would step in or maybe Brienne would come in to save the day somehow. A few people circling around this season that people to have come to Sansa's rescue.

Long story short, rape is about an abhorrent act as you can show or have done to somebody and this show seems to have no sensitivity to the subject yet goes back to it a few times. I get how that would anger a lot of people.

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I get what you're saying about Drogo's lifestyle, but in this world it's pretty much everyone that is depicted as "bad"s lifestyle. Didn't the mountain rape Oberyns sister? Didn't Ramsey's dad just tell him the story about raping the villager that turned into his mom? Weren't those men about to rape Sansa before the Hound stepped in? They've pretty much shown that it's very much a part of this world. Didn't surprise me at all.

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Not getting the big deal in regards to the Sansa outrage. So she got porked on her wedding night?.....big deal. Yeah, it's a bit weird that Reek was forced to watch.....but it's not like he was forced to join...

Yeah I agree with this. Was she really raped? They were married and they had to consumate the marriage. Sure, she wasnt thrilled with the idea but the whole marriage is a sham. Same thing happened to Dany and nobody said boo.

Yes she was raped.

People were upset about Dany too, but it was different here and the emotions run deeper. You don't see any differences in the situations?

What's the difference? IIRC, Dany's was an arranged marriage where she had no desire to marry Drogo........and like Sansa, she was in no real position to deny consummation.

I get that conversation in regards to Tyrion not forcing his dwarf sized #### unto her was a set up to A) make us feel sorry for Sansa, B) show that Ramsey's not very nice and C) Tyrion was pretty nice.... but in the end...the fervor over Sansa's porking doesn't warrant the actual thing that happened.

ETA: as I'm expecting the dogs to be involved or Ramsey forcing Reek to be one half of a finger-cuff or something like that......

Sorry, forgot about this post and now this discussion is carrying on in two threads, but I think it is an important one, so here goes:

IMO there are quite a few differences between the two from an emotional standpoint (I think they are similar and both rape), and I get people being upset by it. Differences are:

- Dany was one of the first couple episodes I believe. No time for emotional attachment to Dany. PLUS, I think they did a smart thing by showing Khal Drogo's lifestyle, and there was a scene at the wedding where they just jumped in an banged a woman. Maybe it was more acceptable to people because they showed Drogo as not knowing any better and that was the lifestyle. I still remember it upsetting people though.

- As I said in the other thread, we have seen Sansa grow up over the last 5 years, and the emotional attachment runs a lot deeper with her

- The show has gone to the rape thing too many times, and it is lazy. I think the Jamie/Cersei scene last year really got to a lot of people, and now this. Seems like the only thing they can think of to put a woman in peril is to have her raped or have that as a threat. It is like they are trying to meet a quota of a rape a year or something. I assume the point was to have an event that pushes Reek and/or Sansa to snap and this was what they came up with. Could have gotten there without having to resort yet again to rape. Again from the other thread - maybe Ramsey punishes Sansa for something Reek did at the wedding by flaying a finger or something like that.

- I think people had the impression that Reek would step in or maybe Brienne would come in to save the day somehow. A few people circling around this season that people to have come to Sansa's rescue.

Long story short, rape is about an abhorrent act as you can show or have done to somebody and this show seems to have no sensitivity to the subject yet goes back to it a few times. I get how that would anger a lot of people.

I understand the point about emotional attachment to Sansa for some people...although I don't know if that's the primary reason for outrage.

I'm a little less understanding about the criticism of the flippancy of rape in the show as I think that Martin (and the show runners) aren't pulling punches in regards to creating a mirror into the brutal way that women have been treated throughout many period of actual human history. For Martin to lessen the punches doesn't serve the story (nor the parallels to human history) that well. Sure, they could have done something else to Sansa to convey Ramsey's mindset (keep in mind though that Ramsey's objective probably isn't flat out violence but the beginning of an effective "Reek style" debasing process towards Sansa...something that simple violence wouldn't do)..but would anything equally brutal or over the top be met with less scorn? I'd imagine that any significant (non-rape), jarring violence against her would have been met with the same criticisim.....and heeding that or lessening it because of that criticism is a path that the show/book shouldn't go down.

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I get what you're saying about Drogo's lifestyle, but in this world it's pretty much everyone that is depicted as "bad"s lifestyle. Didn't the mountain rape Oberyns sister? Didn't Ramsey's dad just tell him the story about raping the villager that turned into his mom? Weren't those men about to rape Sansa before the Hound stepped in? They've pretty much shown that it's very much a part of this world. Didn't surprise me at all.

To add to that point....even after Drogo was smitten by Dany...he endorsed the idea that it was his men's right to rape and pillage the mountain people he obliterated before his demise.

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I still think the biggest difference is the Draper. When someone is hot, people look the other way even at rape (sometimes). Drogo is a God of a man. Ramsey is a scrawny looking weirdo. If you saw a 15 year old teen boy taken advantage of by Melissa McCarthy and then Sofia Vergara, wouldnt you react very differently?

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I still think the biggest difference is the Draper. When someone is hot, people look the other way even at rape (sometimes). Drogo is a God of a man. Ramsey is a scrawny looking weirdo. If you saw a 15 year old teen boy taken advantage of by Melissa McCarthy and then Sofia Vergara, wouldnt you react very differently?

Don would have fit right in on this show.

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Not getting the big deal in regards to the Sansa outrage. So she got porked on her wedding night?.....big deal. Yeah, it's a bit weird that Reek was forced to watch.....but it's not like he was forced to join...

Yeah I agree with this. Was she really raped? They were married and they had to consumate the marriage. Sure, she wasnt thrilled with the idea but the whole marriage is a sham. Same thing happened to Dany and nobody said boo.

Yes she was raped.

People were upset about Dany too, but it was different here and the emotions run deeper. You don't see any differences in the situations?

What's the difference? IIRC, Dany's was an arranged marriage where she had no desire to marry Drogo........and like Sansa, she was in no real position to deny consummation.

I get that conversation in regards to Tyrion not forcing his dwarf sized #### unto her was a set up to A) make us feel sorry for Sansa, B) show that Ramsey's not very nice and C) Tyrion was pretty nice.... but in the end...the fervor over Sansa's porking doesn't warrant the actual thing that happened.

ETA: as I'm expecting the dogs to be involved or Ramsey forcing Reek to be one half of a finger-cuff or something like that......

Sorry, forgot about this post and now this discussion is carrying on in two threads, but I think it is an important one, so here goes:

IMO there are quite a few differences between the two from an emotional standpoint (I think they are similar and both rape), and I get people being upset by it. Differences are:

- Dany was one of the first couple episodes I believe. No time for emotional attachment to Dany. PLUS, I think they did a smart thing by showing Khal Drogo's lifestyle, and there was a scene at the wedding where they just jumped in an banged a woman. Maybe it was more acceptable to people because they showed Drogo as not knowing any better and that was the lifestyle. I still remember it upsetting people though.

- As I said in the other thread, we have seen Sansa grow up over the last 5 years, and the emotional attachment runs a lot deeper with her

- The show has gone to the rape thing too many times, and it is lazy. I think the Jamie/Cersei scene last year really got to a lot of people, and now this. Seems like the only thing they can think of to put a woman in peril is to have her raped or have that as a threat. It is like they are trying to meet a quota of a rape a year or something. I assume the point was to have an event that pushes Reek and/or Sansa to snap and this was what they came up with. Could have gotten there without having to resort yet again to rape. Again from the other thread - maybe Ramsey punishes Sansa for something Reek did at the wedding by flaying a finger or something like that.

- I think people had the impression that Reek would step in or maybe Brienne would come in to save the day somehow. A few people circling around this season that people to have come to Sansa's rescue.

Long story short, rape is about an abhorrent act as you can show or have done to somebody and this show seems to have no sensitivity to the subject yet goes back to it a few times. I get how that would anger a lot of people.

I understand the point about emotional attachment to Sansa for some people...although I don't know if that's the primary reason for outrage.

I'm a little less understanding about the criticism of the flippancy of rape in the show as I think that Martin (and the show runners) aren't pulling punches in regards to creating a mirror into the brutal way that women have been treated throughout many period of actual human history. For Martin to lessen the punches doesn't serve the story (nor the parallels to human history) that well. Sure, they could have done something else to Sansa to convey Ramsey's mindset (keep in mind though that Ramsey's objective probably isn't flat out violence but the beginning of an effective "Reek style" debasing process towards Sansa...something that simple violence wouldn't do)..but would anything equally brutal or over the top be met with less scorn? I'd imagine that any significant (non-rape), jarring violence against her would have been met with the same criticisim.....and heeding that or lessening it because of that criticism is a path that the show/book shouldn't go down.

From what I have read of articles and reactions this 1/2 who it was and the emotional gut punch, and 1/2 that they went there yet again.

This scene doesn't exist in a vacuum. This has been a show that has been criticized several times about it's portrayal of women use of sex. This has been from the start with Dany from first season, to the "sexposition scenes" where Littlefinger basically just explains crap to us while people go at it, to Roz taking an arrow to the hoo-hah, to last year's rape/not rape with Jamie and Cersei to last Sunday. I think each time the show goes there it just adds to the fire for people. Sure, it's a violent world they are depicting, but they do make choices what to show and not, and I think it is fair that people are critical of it, that's all. I just think it is lazy writing that they keep going there. We will see if the scene had any purpose and if there was a reason it had to be rape yet again that had to be the traumatic event shown.

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I get what you're saying about Drogo's lifestyle, but in this world it's pretty much everyone that is depicted as "bad"s lifestyle. Didn't the mountain rape Oberyns sister? Didn't Ramsey's dad just tell him the story about raping the villager that turned into his mom? Weren't those men about to rape Sansa before the Hound stepped in? They've pretty much shown that it's very much a part of this world. Didn't surprise me at all.

Sure, but for every example that you list in Westeros, there are a few characters we know that wouldn't do that. So it isn't the norm in Westeros except for #######s like Ramsey and outlaw bandits. Drogo's was the only culture depicted where that seemed to be part of the lifestyle.

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Karma

I agree with your take pretty much 100%. Question I was asking myself and wondering how you felt. Could they have shot the scene differently and more implied that she was raped and Theon was made to watch and been ok here with the outrage from many watchers? Maybe brought her into the room, made Theon enter as well and closed the door and just gotten some audio of a ripped dress and some tears from Sansa or something? I'm trying to figure out how they could have made the point in a softer way. I guess then the show wouldn't be GoT since that's what they are so good at.

I'll say this, it's nice to have someone to hate again as much as I hated Joffrey. Bolton was surely detestable but he was torturing a character that I wasn't too sympathetic about so it was a weird place to be.

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I get what you're saying about Drogo's lifestyle, but in this world it's pretty much everyone that is depicted as "bad"s lifestyle. Didn't the mountain rape Oberyns sister? Didn't Ramsey's dad just tell him the story about raping the villager that turned into his mom? Weren't those men about to rape Sansa before the Hound stepped in? They've pretty much shown that it's very much a part of this world. Didn't surprise me at all.

Sure, but for every example that you list in Westeros, there are a few characters we know that wouldn't do that. So it isn't the norm in Westeros except for #######s like Ramsey and outlaw bandits. Drogo's was the only culture depicted where that seemed to be part of the lifestyle.

we rewatched the first episode, where this happens. definitely more apart of the culture as KP says, and less violent when it actually does happen. drogo doesn't rip apart her clothes, he carefully undoes them. tearful resignation is the same for both women- but the drogo/dany scene gets cut before any screaming happens. the ripped clothes plus the screaming- plus knowing what we know of Ramsay- makes that one worse IMO.

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Karma

I agree with your take pretty much 100%. Question I was asking myself and wondering how you felt. Could they have shot the scene differently and more implied that she was raped and Theon was made to watch and been ok here with the outrage from many watchers? Maybe brought her into the room, made Theon enter as well and closed the door and just gotten some audio of a ripped dress and some tears from Sansa or something? I'm trying to figure out how they could have made the point in a softer way. I guess then the show wouldn't be GoT since that's what they are so good at.

I'll say this, it's nice to have someone to hate again as much as I hated Joffrey. Bolton was surely detestable but he was torturing a character that I wasn't too sympathetic about so it was a weird place to be.

funny thing rewatching the 1st episode- easy to forget Jaime was a #### to ned and then pushed Bran off the tower while saying something like "where were we". he was set up to be the villain at that point. interesting to see his story arc over the years.

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I get what you're saying about Drogo's lifestyle, but in this world it's pretty much everyone that is depicted as "bad"s lifestyle. Didn't the mountain rape Oberyns sister? Didn't Ramsey's dad just tell him the story about raping the villager that turned into his mom? Weren't those men about to rape Sansa before the Hound stepped in? They've pretty much shown that it's very much a part of this world. Didn't surprise me at all.

Sure, but for every example that you list in Westeros, there are a few characters we know that wouldn't do that. So it isn't the norm in Westeros except for #######s like Ramsey and outlaw bandits. Drogo's was the only culture depicted where that seemed to be part of the lifestyle.

I'm not even sure about that....remember one of the reasons that Jorah laid out for buying/hiring the Unsullied was that he heard of the violence (I believe he said rape as well) of Kings Landing after The Mad King fell and that the Unsullied wouldn't be doing that; thus sparing the small folk from that. IIRC, Jorah might even have said that that's what men do.

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I get what you're saying about Drogo's lifestyle, but in this world it's pretty much everyone that is depicted as "bad"s lifestyle. Didn't the mountain rape Oberyns sister? Didn't Ramsey's dad just tell him the story about raping the villager that turned into his mom? Weren't those men about to rape Sansa before the Hound stepped in? They've pretty much shown that it's very much a part of this world. Didn't surprise me at all.

Sure, but for every example that you list in Westeros, there are a few characters we know that wouldn't do that. So it isn't the norm in Westeros except for #######s like Ramsey and outlaw bandits. Drogo's was the only culture depicted where that seemed to be part of the lifestyle.

we rewatched the first episode, where this happens. definitely more apart of the culture as KP says, and less violent when it actually does happen. drogo doesn't rip apart her clothes, he carefully undoes them. tearful resignation is the same for both women- but the drogo/dany scene gets cut before any screaming happens. the ripped clothes plus the screaming- plus knowing what we know of Ramsay- makes that one worse IMO.

I think the biggest difference is that they Drogo/Dany scene, and pretty much every other depiction of rape or violence or sex on the show, makes you feel a certain way about the characters or moved the story forward. The Ramsay/Sansa/Theon scene didn't do that at all, it was 100% gratuitous. Everyone already hates Ramsay and understands he's a sadistic monster. Everyone already feels terrible for Sansa and Theon. We even saw the dynamic at work between the three in the far better scene at the dinner table the previous week when Ramsay made Theon apologize to Sansa for "killing" her siblings.

Gratuitous material on TV and on this show is nothing new, but generally people are OK with it because we get that some people enjoy it. People like looking at boobs. People like looking at fake violence. But the idea of depicting a rape because you think the audience wants to see it is kind of disturbing.

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Karma

I agree with your take pretty much 100%. Question I was asking myself and wondering how you felt. Could they have shot the scene differently and more implied that she was raped and Theon was made to watch and been ok here with the outrage from many watchers? Maybe brought her into the room, made Theon enter as well and closed the door and just gotten some audio of a ripped dress and some tears from Sansa or something? I'm trying to figure out how they could have made the point in a softer way. I guess then the show wouldn't be GoT since that's what they are so good at.

I'll say this, it's nice to have someone to hate again as much as I hated Joffrey. Bolton was surely detestable but he was torturing a character that I wasn't too sympathetic about so it was a weird place to be.

funny thing rewatching the 1st episode- easy to forget Jaime was a #### to ned and then pushed Bran off the tower while saying something like "where were we".

"the things I do for love"

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I get what you're saying about Drogo's lifestyle, but in this world it's pretty much everyone that is depicted as "bad"s lifestyle. Didn't the mountain rape Oberyns sister? Didn't Ramsey's dad just tell him the story about raping the villager that turned into his mom? Weren't those men about to rape Sansa before the Hound stepped in? They've pretty much shown that it's very much a part of this world. Didn't surprise me at all.

Sure, but for every example that you list in Westeros, there are a few characters we know that wouldn't do that. So it isn't the norm in Westeros except for #######s like Ramsey and outlaw bandits. Drogo's was the only culture depicted where that seemed to be part of the lifestyle.

we rewatched the first episode, where this happens. definitely more apart of the culture as KP says, and less violent when it actually does happen. drogo doesn't rip apart her clothes, he carefully undoes them. tearful resignation is the same for both women- but the drogo/dany scene gets cut before any screaming happens. the ripped clothes plus the screaming- plus knowing what we know of Ramsay- makes that one worse IMO.

I think the biggest difference is that they Drogo/Dany scene, and pretty much every other depiction of rape or violence or sex on the show, makes you feel a certain way about the characters or moved the story forward. The Ramsay/Sansa/Theon scene didn't do that at all, it was 100% gratuitous. Everyone already hates Ramsay and understands he's a sadistic monster. Everyone already feels terrible for Sansa and Theon. We even saw the dynamic at work between the three in the far better scene at the dinner table the previous week when Ramsay made Theon apologize to Sansa for "killing" her siblings.

Gratuitous material on TV and on this show is nothing new, but generally people are OK with it because we get that some people enjoy it. People like looking at boobs. People like looking at fake violence. But the idea of depicting a rape because you think the audience wants to see it is kind of disturbing.

:shrug:

I am guessing that the scene won't be gratuitous but will be a catalyst for something. breaking theon out of his freeze, pushing theon and sansa together, making dog girl crack... something. for all we know, the scene isn't even over yet.

but yeah- if nothing has changed, then it's yet another example of what a #### ramsay is... not sure we need it, but GoT doesn't care.

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Karma

I agree with your take pretty much 100%. Question I was asking myself and wondering how you felt. Could they have shot the scene differently and more implied that she was raped and Theon was made to watch and been ok here with the outrage from many watchers? Maybe brought her into the room, made Theon enter as well and closed the door and just gotten some audio of a ripped dress and some tears from Sansa or something? I'm trying to figure out how they could have made the point in a softer way. I guess then the show wouldn't be GoT since that's what they are so good at.

I'll say this, it's nice to have someone to hate again as much as I hated Joffrey. Bolton was surely detestable but he was torturing a character that I wasn't too sympathetic about so it was a weird place to be.

funny thing rewatching the 1st episode- easy to forget Jaime was a #### to ned and then pushed Bran off the tower while saying something like "where were we".

"the things I do for love"

that's it- thanks!

and the look on his face wasn't one of concern- it was more annoyance and wanting to get back to banging his twin sister.

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Also for Drogo and Dany, you also have to remember that about 1 or 2 shows later Dany was asking her chamber whore how she could please her husband in bed and asking for sex tips. So, unlike what we all assume from Sansa - that she will hate every minute of this, Dany basically fell in love with Drogo and pleased him as a wife and was happy to do it.

I really didn't find anything wrong with the scene from the standpoint of where everyone attacking it is coming from. This is a brutal universe. In the same episode where Sansa has to consummate her marriage, a character we love killed a little girl with poison, a gay man is being led off in chains for being gay and his sister is as well for supporting her brother, two men were taken as slaves and one almost executed, 3 women tried to kidnap or worse a teenage girl whose only crime was her last name, we saw a room of faces of people that have been tricked into drinking poison whose number was gas chamber level, and so on and so on. The entire universe is horrid, even the "good" acts are horrid.

Me, I'm of the opinion at this point that someone in this world has to have a brain, and just comes to the realization that marriage in this world is a bad idea. In every way shape and form. You want to marry me? Nope, sorry. I don't marry. You want me to go to a wedding? Nope, sorry, my donkey threw a shoe and I have to shovel the pig sty with my bare hands. At some point someone catches on to that, right? How about we just live in sin for awhile and wait a few decades to decide on this marriage thing?

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I get what you're saying about Drogo's lifestyle, but in this world it's pretty much everyone that is depicted as "bad"s lifestyle. Didn't the mountain rape Oberyns sister? Didn't Ramsey's dad just tell him the story about raping the villager that turned into his mom? Weren't those men about to rape Sansa before the Hound stepped in? They've pretty much shown that it's very much a part of this world. Didn't surprise me at all.

Sure, but for every example that you list in Westeros, there are a few characters we know that wouldn't do that. So it isn't the norm in Westeros except for #######s like Ramsey and outlaw bandits. Drogo's was the only culture depicted where that seemed to be part of the lifestyle.

we rewatched the first episode, where this happens. definitely more apart of the culture as KP says, and less violent when it actually does happen. drogo doesn't rip apart her clothes, he carefully undoes them. tearful resignation is the same for both women- but the drogo/dany scene gets cut before any screaming happens. the ripped clothes plus the screaming- plus knowing what we know of Ramsay- makes that one worse IMO.

I think the biggest difference is that they Drogo/Dany scene, and pretty much every other depiction of rape or violence or sex on the show, makes you feel a certain way about the characters or moved the story forward. The Ramsay/Sansa/Theon scene didn't do that at all, it was 100% gratuitous. Everyone already hates Ramsay and understands he's a sadistic monster. Everyone already feels terrible for Sansa and Theon. We even saw the dynamic at work between the three in the far better scene at the dinner table the previous week when Ramsay made Theon apologize to Sansa for "killing" her siblings.

Gratuitous material on TV and on this show is nothing new, but generally people are OK with it because we get that some people enjoy it. People like looking at boobs. People like looking at fake violence. But the idea of depicting a rape because you think the audience wants to see it is kind of disturbing.

:shrug:

I am guessing that the scene won't be gratuitous but will be a catalyst for something. breaking theon out of his freeze, pushing theon and sansa together, making dog girl crack... something. for all we know, the scene isn't even over yet.

but yeah- if nothing has changed, then it's yet another example of what a #### ramsay is... not sure we need it, but GoT doesn't care.

Yeah, the bolded is a possibility. If that's the case it would make a lot more sense. But I don't remember GoT doing anything like that, with a cliffhanger type ending where the storyline picks up literally moments after we left it.

Otherwise I do think this one was different, which is why people are reacting to it a bit differently. GoT shows plenty of horrible things and plenty of gratuitous things, and both of those are fine. But gratuitous rape would still be a new one. And I think the backlash is as much about crappy storytelling as the fact that it was a rape here. People were getting really tired of the constant Ramsay/Theon torture scenes last season too. It was maybe the biggest complaint about the show. Once you've established the dynamic and made the audience feel a certain way about the characters you're not really accomplishing anything.

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Also for Drogo and Dany, you also have to remember that about 1 or 2 shows later Dany was asking her chamber whore how she could please her husband in bed and asking for sex tips. So, unlike what we all assume from Sansa - that she will hate every minute of this, Dany basically fell in love with Drogo and pleased him as a wife and was happy to do it.

I really didn't find anything wrong with the scene from the standpoint of where everyone attacking it is coming from. This is a brutal universe. In the same episode where Sansa has to consummate her marriage, a character we love killed a little girl with poison, a gay man is being led off in chains for being gay and his sister is as well for supporting her brother, two men were taken as slaves and one almost executed, 3 women tried to kidnap or worse a teenage girl whose only crime was her last name, we saw a room of faces of people that have been tricked into drinking poison whose number was gas chamber level, and so on and so on. The entire universe is horrid, even the "good" acts are horrid.

Me, I'm of the opinion at this point that someone in this world has to have a brain, and just comes to the realization that marriage in this world is a bad idea. In every way shape and form. You want to marry me? Nope, sorry. I don't marry. You want me to go to a wedding? Nope, sorry, my donkey threw a shoe and I have to shovel the pig sty with my bare hands. At some point someone catches on to that, right? How about we just live in sin for awhile and wait a few decades to decide on this marriage thing?

People who are offended by this and try to bring this into rape culture etc are morons. Simple as that. Morons. I think these are the same people who come up to actors and talk to them as if the actors are really actually the characters that they play. Morons.

This is a tv show. And even in this tv show there was no glorification of what happened.... it just happened. It is not out of place in this make believe world (and historically not out of place in ours). It is part of a story being told that as you rightly pointed out in the same episode a slew of bad things happened.

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Bunch of male guilt in here. This is a show that has show that has had castration, torturing, flaying, rape, sodomy, murder of kids, dragons torching children, kids killing other kids, kids killing adults, and even a dude getting gold melted over his head. But this scene is what pushes it over the top?

Just go watch Cailou or Franklin the Turtle or something.

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Wasn't there an episode where soldiers went around slaughtering 18 children, many no older than a year old? How about the Red Wedding? The murder of a baby inside it's mothers womb before killing the mother too?

Completely innocent people who did nothing at all in any way shape or form. Robb's wife was a noble woman who served the wounded in battle and fell in love. All completely innocent. Sansa isn't innocent. Granted, she has acted both as a child and as someone who had to protect herself from a potential worse fate, but she isn't innocent. If she stood up for her family, there is a chance a lot of this doesn't happen. If she told the truth when Littlefinger killed his wife she wouldn't be in the position she is in now.

Yet all the innerwebs chatter about the Red Wedding was how cool it was, how compelling it was. How true to the things that shall not be named it was. The outrage on this scene is forced, fake and funny.

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I agree with your take pretty much 100%. Question I was asking myself and wondering how you felt. Could they have shot the scene differently and more implied that she was raped and Theon was made to watch and been ok here with the outrage from many watchers? Maybe brought her into the room, made Theon enter as well and closed the door and just gotten some audio of a ripped dress and some tears from Sansa or something? I'm trying to figure out how they could have made the point in a softer way. I guess then the show wouldn't be GoT since that's what they are so good at.

I'll say this, it's nice to have someone to hate again as much as I hated Joffrey. Bolton was surely detestable but he was torturing a character that I wasn't too sympathetic about so it was a weird place to be.

Good question, and I think that they could have handled it differently, but as you and others have said - this is HBO and that is not what they do.

First, I don't think it had to be rape to begin with. They could have had another 'thing' happen that snaps Reek out of his funk. Sansa has more than enough ammo to hate the Boltons and take revenge, so this is basically still about Theon. I think Ramsey punishing Sansa for something Reek did and telling him that he is going to turn her into a female Reek would be just as twisted, snap Reek, and show us something different while staying in character for everybody.

If they are sitting around brainstorming and it just HAS to be rape that is done to her, I think yes - it could have been written different ways. Like you said, there could have been a cut after Reek enters, and we hear something going on. There could be a conversation the next morning - maybe Sansa yells at Reek for not stepping in, telling us that he was there. More ####ed up - maybe after Ramsey comes into the room we pan over and see Reek in a portable cage in the corner of the room or some ####.

I just think that rape in particular is a very hot button topic for people, so if you are going to depict in on screen you should be very careful about how you do it or make sure there is a purpose to showing it. This show doesn't seem to agree with that, and it has caused some backlash for them.

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Bunch of male guilt in here. This is a show that has show that has had castration, torturing, flaying, rape, sodomy, murder of kids, dragons torching children, kids killing other kids, kids killing adults, and even a dude getting gold melted over his head. But this scene is what pushes it over the top?

Just go watch Cailou or Franklin the Turtle or something.

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Bunch of male guilt in here. This is a show that has show that has had castration, torturing, flaying, rape, sodomy, murder of kids, dragons torching children, kids killing other kids, kids killing adults, and even a dude getting gold melted over his head. But this scene is what pushes it over the top?

Just go watch Cailou or Franklin the Turtle or something.

Of all those things that you listed, only a couple happen in day to day life for most. Of course they are going to be hot button topics that upset people - you can't see that? Upsetting to watch, sure, but people can compartmentalize a dragon torching a kid or somebody getting a flayed. That #### only happens in this fictional world. You show rape, stabbing a pregnant woman in the stomach, or killing babies? Yeah, that is going to upset people a lot more, and if it is just showing it to show it without a purpose beyond that, then you upset people even more.

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