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Was this rape? Seems like everyone is classifying it as that but seems kinda a gray area to me. I guess he intimidated her into doing something she didn't want to do which makes it such. But it was also their wedding night and he didn't exactly force himself upon her.

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I bet all those people who named their daughters  “Khaleesi” feel kinda dumb right now.

Why do people say the Arya thing is fan service? That’s so ### #### lazy. They spent 7 ####ing seasons working up to that. Pay attention. 

Let's talk about danny. First, she was nothing without her claim to the throne.  She was raised by her ######## brother to think that was the only thing that mattered. Episode 1 he starts out by

Wasn't there an episode where soldiers went around slaughtering 18 children, many no older than a year old? How about the Red Wedding? The murder of a baby inside it's mothers womb before killing the mother too?

Completely innocent people who did nothing at all in any way shape or form. Robb's wife was a noble woman who served the wounded in battle and fell in love. All completely innocent. Sansa isn't innocent. Granted, she has acted both as a child and as someone who had to protect herself from a potential worse fate, but she isn't innocent. If she stood up for her family, there is a chance a lot of this doesn't happen. If she told the truth when Littlefinger killed his wife she wouldn't be in the position she is in now.

Yet all the innerwebs chatter about the Red Wedding was how cool it was, how compelling it was. How true to the things that shall not be named it was. The outrage on this scene is forced, fake and funny.

I remember people being upset about all the murdering of Robert's bastards, although admittedly not to this level. The Red Wedding events took place in an enormous scene that was key to the plot, and everyone could see that. Having to listen to a girl being mock raped is viewed differently...I'm not sure what is so hard to understand about that. Especially when people can see how unnecessary it was in the context of the story. If we never saw Ramsey before, but he was portrayed as some sort of hero or noble man who would lead his people to great things, and then he turned and raped his wife on their wedding night, so the scene actually had a purpose, I think the reaction would be much different.

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Wasn't there an episode where soldiers went around slaughtering 18 children, many no older than a year old? How about the Red Wedding? The murder of a baby inside it's mothers womb before killing the mother too?

Completely innocent people who did nothing at all in any way shape or form. Robb's wife was a noble woman who served the wounded in battle and fell in love. All completely innocent. Sansa isn't innocent. Granted, she has acted both as a child and as someone who had to protect herself from a potential worse fate, but she isn't innocent. If she stood up for her family, there is a chance a lot of this doesn't happen. If she told the truth when Littlefinger killed his wife she wouldn't be in the position she is in now.

Yet all the innerwebs chatter about the Red Wedding was how cool it was, how compelling it was. How true to the things that shall not be named it was. The outrage on this scene is forced, fake and funny.

I guess I read different articles and listen to different podcasts. The Red Wedding was upsetting to a lot of people, especially the choice they made to have Rob's wife there and get stabbed in the stomach. The scene last year with Jamie/Cersei upset a lot of people. The Kingsguard killing babies too. This is another one.

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Was this rape? Seems like everyone is classifying it as that but seems kinda a gray area to me. I guess he intimidated her into doing something she didn't want to do which makes it such. But it was also their wedding night and he didn't exactly force himself upon her.

Besides ripping her dress off and forcibly bending her over?

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Was this rape? Seems like everyone is classifying it as that but seems kinda a gray area to me. I guess he intimidated her into doing something she didn't want to do which makes it such. But it was also their wedding night and he didn't exactly force himself upon her.

100%

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Was this rape? Seems like everyone is classifying it as that but seems kinda a gray area to me. I guess he intimidated her into doing something she didn't want to do which makes it such. But it was also their wedding night and he didn't exactly force himself upon her.

Besides ripping her dress off and forcibly bending her over?

She started undressing on her own.

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So Ice and Fire? Starks and Targaryens?

I really like that. If that was Martin's end game with the name it makes for a really good story and also gives you some sense of hope with Dany.

Didn't they say that she wouldn't be doing any more nude scenes?

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Was this rape? Seems like everyone is classifying it as that but seems kinda a gray area to me. I guess he intimidated her into doing something she didn't want to do which makes it such. But it was also their wedding night and he didn't exactly force himself upon her.

100%

Would Reek not being forced to watch or knowing Ramsey's history and what he's capable of change your opinion at all?

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Karma

I agree with your take pretty much 100%. Question I was asking myself and wondering how you felt. Could they have shot the scene differently and more implied that she was raped and Theon was made to watch and been ok here with the outrage from many watchers? Maybe brought her into the room, made Theon enter as well and closed the door and just gotten some audio of a ripped dress and some tears from Sansa or something? I'm trying to figure out how they could have made the point in a softer way. I guess then the show wouldn't be GoT since that's what they are so good at.

I'll say this, it's nice to have someone to hate again as much as I hated Joffrey. Bolton was surely detestable but he was torturing a character that I wasn't too sympathetic about so it was a weird place to be.

Good question, and I think that they could have handled it differently, but as you and others have said - this is HBO and that is not what they do.

First, I don't think it had to be rape to begin with. They could have had another 'thing' happen that snaps Reek out of his funk. Sansa has more than enough ammo to hate the Boltons and take revenge, so this is basically still about Theon. I think Ramsey punishing Sansa for something Reek did and telling him that he is going to turn her into a female Reek would be just as twisted, snap Reek, and show us something different while staying in character for everybody.

If they are sitting around brainstorming and it just HAS to be rape that is done to her, I think yes - it could have been written different ways. Like you said, there could have been a cut after Reek enters, and we hear something going on. There could be a conversation the next morning - maybe Sansa yells at Reek for not stepping in, telling us that he was there. More ####ed up - maybe after Ramsey comes into the room we pan over and see Reek in a portable cage in the corner of the room or some ####.

I just think that rape in particular is a very hot button topic for people, so if you are going to depict in on screen you should be very careful about how you do it or make sure there is a purpose to showing it. This show doesn't seem to agree with that, and it has caused some backlash for them.

I understand this. I really do. I just still don't agree.

The main starting point for almost all of the hate for this scene is that "Sansa has suffered enough." So to me, that tells me that everyone was ok with what she has gone through previously. Psychological torture and some physical torture at the hands of Joffrey. Humiliation of the worst kind after that. Being used as a pawn by Littlefinger. All of that was ok somehow simpy because this now is worse. In fact, it was ok before hand because it was hoped that she would grow from it somehow. Now all of the sudden, what? She can't grow from this? A woman in a world where woman are raped and treated as less then second class citizens was raped in a situation that she herself had total control over and allowed to happen (within the context of the show, I'm not going down the line of real world rape. No woman deserves it for any reason ever so let's not go there).

So, what the people complaining about now are saying is that - we are ok with killing babies (live babies, not an abortion type thing) we are ok with people getting their throat cut; we kinda like the bad guy good guy bad guy thing from The Hound when he beat that poor dad for all his money because he had some good one liners during his time on screen; a really huge guy crushed a guys skull, women are tortured, raped, murdered and worse for simply being women; a pregnant mother has her baby eviscerated in her womb during a party, people are beheaded for ridiculous nonsense, children are poisoning other children and so on and so on and so on.....

.... but this is going too far? Really? What about Walter Frey's innocent daughter/wife whom Catherine killed just because she was standing there? Where is the outrage for her death? Everyone pretty much loves Jamie now for the most part but he threw a kid off a balcony. Panty wad people are getting all worked up about this particular horrible and by doing so are basically saying that everything else is ok, entertaining, understandable, part of the story, artistic license, used a plot to set up a better revenge type thing. There are websites out there posting now that they will no longer promote or follow the show because this is just too far.

It's ridiculous. It's a fricken TV show that has magic dwarfs, dragons, and ghost monsters who are birthed like babies and stone men that Marvel would be pround of. Give me a break. People love outrage because it gives them a sense of purpose. I can understand hating the scene for the changes it makes to the underlying story from the books. That I get. The book people hating it because they liked the book version of the story better - I get that. I think they are nuts for different reasons, but I get that. The real world outrage? Really? C'mon.

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Littlefinger is so good at this. Fun to watch him work. How about instead of the Nights of the Veil effing up my business.. they leave and win me the north instead?

For me Ramsey finally overtakes Cercei as who I most want to see get theirs.

not sure you understand who the Knights of the Vale are....

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_small/0/4/21333-3417-23786-1-nightveil.jpg

Spoiler tag next time please.

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I get what you're saying about Drogo's lifestyle, but in this world it's pretty much everyone that is depicted as "bad"s lifestyle. Didn't the mountain rape Oberyns sister? Didn't Ramsey's dad just tell him the story about raping the villager that turned into his mom? Weren't those men about to rape Sansa before the Hound stepped in? They've pretty much shown that it's very much a part of this world. Didn't surprise me at all.

Think of it as Fantasyland India.

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Wasn't there an episode where soldiers went around slaughtering 18 children, many no older than a year old? How about the Red Wedding? The murder of a baby inside it's mothers womb before killing the mother too?

Completely innocent people who did nothing at all in any way shape or form. Robb's wife was a noble woman who served the wounded in battle and fell in love. All completely innocent. Sansa isn't innocent. Granted, she has acted both as a child and as someone who had to protect herself from a potential worse fate, but she isn't innocent. If she stood up for her family, there is a chance a lot of this doesn't happen. If she told the truth when Littlefinger killed his wife she wouldn't be in the position she is in now.

Yet all the innerwebs chatter about the Red Wedding was how cool it was, how compelling it was. How true to the things that shall not be named it was. The outrage on this scene is forced, fake and funny.

I remember people being upset about all the murdering of Robert's bastards, although admittedly not to this level. The Red Wedding events took place in an enormous scene that was key to the plot, and everyone could see that. Having to listen to a girl being mock raped is viewed differently...I'm not sure what is so hard to understand about that. Especially when people can see how unnecessary it was in the context of the story. If we never saw Ramsey before, but he was portrayed as some sort of hero or noble man who would lead his people to great things, and then he turned and raped his wife on their wedding night, so the scene actually had a purpose, I think the reaction would be much different.

I guess that is also one of my problems - how do we know it isn't furthering a storyline or plot yet? It was the final scene of the 6th episode in a 10 episode arc. For all we know she kills him the next episode. For all we know Sansa and Theon join up and torture him the way he did to Theon and everyone will cheer (I will too because that would be pretty damn satisfying.)

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Wasn't there an episode where soldiers went around slaughtering 18 children, many no older than a year old? How about the Red Wedding? The murder of a baby inside it's mothers womb before killing the mother too?

Completely innocent people who did nothing at all in any way shape or form. Robb's wife was a noble woman who served the wounded in battle and fell in love. All completely innocent. Sansa isn't innocent. Granted, she has acted both as a child and as someone who had to protect herself from a potential worse fate, but she isn't innocent. If she stood up for her family, there is a chance a lot of this doesn't happen. If she told the truth when Littlefinger killed his wife she wouldn't be in the position she is in now.

Yet all the innerwebs chatter about the Red Wedding was how cool it was, how compelling it was. How true to the things that shall not be named it was. The outrage on this scene is forced, fake and funny.

I guess I read different articles and listen to different podcasts. The Red Wedding was upsetting to a lot of people, especially the choice they made to have Rob's wife there and get stabbed in the stomach. The scene last year with Jamie/Cersei upset a lot of people. The Kingsguard killing babies too. This is another one.

Not to this level. The red wedding stuff was also fully expected because of the books. I'm not saying that people don't complain after every episode. But this one has politicians and media people in an uproar like something in real life happened.

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Was this rape? Seems like everyone is classifying it as that but seems kinda a gray area to me. I guess he intimidated her into doing something she didn't want to do which makes it such. But it was also their wedding night and he didn't exactly force himself upon her.

Besides ripping her dress off and forcibly bending her over?

Small point of order - really really small. Did he forcibly bend her over? I didn't get that sense. He definately ripped her dress and made it clear what he was going to do, but I thought she kinda laid down on her own? Again, small thing.

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Karma

I agree with your take pretty much 100%. Question I was asking myself and wondering how you felt. Could they have shot the scene differently and more implied that she was raped and Theon was made to watch and been ok here with the outrage from many watchers? Maybe brought her into the room, made Theon enter as well and closed the door and just gotten some audio of a ripped dress and some tears from Sansa or something? I'm trying to figure out how they could have made the point in a softer way. I guess then the show wouldn't be GoT since that's what they are so good at.

I'll say this, it's nice to have someone to hate again as much as I hated Joffrey. Bolton was surely detestable but he was torturing a character that I wasn't too sympathetic about so it was a weird place to be.

Good question, and I think that they could have handled it differently, but as you and others have said - this is HBO and that is not what they do.

First, I don't think it had to be rape to begin with. They could have had another 'thing' happen that snaps Reek out of his funk. Sansa has more than enough ammo to hate the Boltons and take revenge, so this is basically still about Theon. I think Ramsey punishing Sansa for something Reek did and telling him that he is going to turn her into a female Reek would be just as twisted, snap Reek, and show us something different while staying in character for everybody.

If they are sitting around brainstorming and it just HAS to be rape that is done to her, I think yes - it could have been written different ways. Like you said, there could have been a cut after Reek enters, and we hear something going on. There could be a conversation the next morning - maybe Sansa yells at Reek for not stepping in, telling us that he was there. More ####ed up - maybe after Ramsey comes into the room we pan over and see Reek in a portable cage in the corner of the room or some ####.

I just think that rape in particular is a very hot button topic for people, so if you are going to depict in on screen you should be very careful about how you do it or make sure there is a purpose to showing it. This show doesn't seem to agree with that, and it has caused some backlash for them.

I understand this. I really do. I just still don't agree.

The main starting point for almost all of the hate for this scene is that "Sansa has suffered enough." So to me, that tells me that everyone was ok with what she has gone through previously. Psychological torture and some physical torture at the hands of Joffrey. Humiliation of the worst kind after that. Being used as a pawn by Littlefinger. All of that was ok somehow simpy because this now is worse. In fact, it was ok before hand because it was hoped that she would grow from it somehow. Now all of the sudden, what? She can't grow from this? A woman in a world where woman are raped and treated as less then second class citizens was raped in a situation that she herself had total control over and allowed to happen (within the context of the show, I'm not going down the line of real world rape. No woman deserves it for any reason ever so let's not go there).

So, what the people complaining about now are saying is that - we are ok with killing babies (live babies, not an abortion type thing) we are ok with people getting their throat cut; we kinda like the bad guy good guy bad guy thing from The Hound when he beat that poor dad for all his money because he had some good one liners during his time on screen; a really huge guy crushed a guys skull, women are tortured, raped, murdered and worse for simply being women; a pregnant mother has her baby eviscerated in her womb during a party, people are beheaded for ridiculous nonsense, children are poisoning other children and so on and so on and so on.....

.... but this is going too far? Really? What about Walter Frey's innocent daughter/wife whom Catherine killed just because she was standing there? Where is the outrage for her death? Everyone pretty much loves Jamie now for the most part but he threw a kid off a balcony. Panty wad people are getting all worked up about this particular horrible and by doing so are basically saying that everything else is ok, entertaining, understandable, part of the story, artistic license, used a plot to set up a better revenge type thing. There are websites out there posting now that they will no longer promote or follow the show because this is just too far.

It's ridiculous. It's a fricken TV show that has magic dwarfs, dragons, and ghost monsters who are birthed like babies and stone men that Marvel would be pround of. Give me a break. People love outrage because it gives them a sense of purpose. I can understand hating the scene for the changes it makes to the underlying story from the books. That I get. The book people hating it because they liked the book version of the story better - I get that. I think they are nuts for different reasons, but I get that. The real world outrage? Really? C'mon.

The irony here is overwhelming. You are far more outraged at the "outrage" than anyone is at the show. Every article or review I've seen that takes issue with the incident is more criticism than outrage. You want to talk about people loving outrage because it gives them a sense of purpose? Read the last couple pages of this thread. Who seems more outraged- the people who didn't like the scene or the people pushing back against that sentiment?

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Was this rape? Seems like everyone is classifying it as that but seems kinda a gray area to me. I guess he intimidated her into doing something she didn't want to do which makes it such. But it was also their wedding night and he didn't exactly force himself upon her.

Besides ripping her dress off and forcibly bending her over?

I know a number of people who would consider that foreplay.

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Karma

I agree with your take pretty much 100%. Question I was asking myself and wondering how you felt. Could they have shot the scene differently and more implied that she was raped and Theon was made to watch and been ok here with the outrage from many watchers? Maybe brought her into the room, made Theon enter as well and closed the door and just gotten some audio of a ripped dress and some tears from Sansa or something? I'm trying to figure out how they could have made the point in a softer way. I guess then the show wouldn't be GoT since that's what they are so good at.

I'll say this, it's nice to have someone to hate again as much as I hated Joffrey. Bolton was surely detestable but he was torturing a character that I wasn't too sympathetic about so it was a weird place to be.

Good question, and I think that they could have handled it differently, but as you and others have said - this is HBO and that is not what they do.

First, I don't think it had to be rape to begin with. They could have had another 'thing' happen that snaps Reek out of his funk. Sansa has more than enough ammo to hate the Boltons and take revenge, so this is basically still about Theon. I think Ramsey punishing Sansa for something Reek did and telling him that he is going to turn her into a female Reek would be just as twisted, snap Reek, and show us something different while staying in character for everybody.

If they are sitting around brainstorming and it just HAS to be rape that is done to her, I think yes - it could have been written different ways. Like you said, there could have been a cut after Reek enters, and we hear something going on. There could be a conversation the next morning - maybe Sansa yells at Reek for not stepping in, telling us that he was there. More ####ed up - maybe after Ramsey comes into the room we pan over and see Reek in a portable cage in the corner of the room or some ####.

I just think that rape in particular is a very hot button topic for people, so if you are going to depict in on screen you should be very careful about how you do it or make sure there is a purpose to showing it. This show doesn't seem to agree with that, and it has caused some backlash for them.

I understand this. I really do. I just still don't agree.

The main starting point for almost all of the hate for this scene is that "Sansa has suffered enough." So to me, that tells me that everyone was ok with what she has gone through previously. Psychological torture and some physical torture at the hands of Joffrey. Humiliation of the worst kind after that. Being used as a pawn by Littlefinger. All of that was ok somehow simpy because this now is worse. In fact, it was ok before hand because it was hoped that she would grow from it somehow. Now all of the sudden, what? She can't grow from this? A woman in a world where woman are raped and treated as less then second class citizens was raped in a situation that she herself had total control over and allowed to happen (within the context of the show, I'm not going down the line of real world rape. No woman deserves it for any reason ever so let's not go there).

So, what the people complaining about now are saying is that - we are ok with killing babies (live babies, not an abortion type thing) we are ok with people getting their throat cut; we kinda like the bad guy good guy bad guy thing from The Hound when he beat that poor dad for all his money because he had some good one liners during his time on screen; a really huge guy crushed a guys skull, women are tortured, raped, murdered and worse for simply being women; a pregnant mother has her baby eviscerated in her womb during a party, people are beheaded for ridiculous nonsense, children are poisoning other children and so on and so on and so on.....

.... but this is going too far? Really? What about Walter Frey's innocent daughter/wife whom Catherine killed just because she was standing there? Where is the outrage for her death? Everyone pretty much loves Jamie now for the most part but he threw a kid off a balcony. Panty wad people are getting all worked up about this particular horrible and by doing so are basically saying that everything else is ok, entertaining, understandable, part of the story, artistic license, used a plot to set up a better revenge type thing. There are websites out there posting now that they will no longer promote or follow the show because this is just too far.

It's ridiculous. It's a fricken TV show that has magic dwarfs, dragons, and ghost monsters who are birthed like babies and stone men that Marvel would be pround of. Give me a break. People love outrage because it gives them a sense of purpose. I can understand hating the scene for the changes it makes to the underlying story from the books. That I get. The book people hating it because they liked the book version of the story better - I get that. I think they are nuts for different reasons, but I get that. The real world outrage? Really? C'mon.

The irony here is overwhelming. You are far more outraged at the "outrage" than anyone is at the show. Every article or review I've seen that takes issue with the incident is more criticism than outrage. You want to talk about people loving outrage because it gives them a sense of purpose? Read the last couple pages of this thread. Who seems more outraged- the people who didn't like the scene or the people pushing back against that sentiment?

I"m just waiting for my coffee to kick in before I get to work today and doing mindless TV talk. I think your attempt to be hollier than thou is truly wasted on someone like me.

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People have way too much time on their hands. You can't show rape on tv or movies now? Do these folks know that the actors aren't Actually getting raped?

People are stupid.

Nah. People are people. The fact that this shows creates so much passion is a testament to the show and the writers and the world they've created. And the horror that Sansa is suffering is a testament to her story arc and the fact that people love her character and actually are feeling her pain now - or in the alternative are feeling pain for her and getting worked up in real life. That is usually one of the better ways to measure the success of television drama.

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Karma

I agree with your take pretty much 100%. Question I was asking myself and wondering how you felt. Could they have shot the scene differently and more implied that she was raped and Theon was made to watch and been ok here with the outrage from many watchers? Maybe brought her into the room, made Theon enter as well and closed the door and just gotten some audio of a ripped dress and some tears from Sansa or something? I'm trying to figure out how they could have made the point in a softer way. I guess then the show wouldn't be GoT since that's what they are so good at.

I'll say this, it's nice to have someone to hate again as much as I hated Joffrey. Bolton was surely detestable but he was torturing a character that I wasn't too sympathetic about so it was a weird place to be.

Good question, and I think that they could have handled it differently, but as you and others have said - this is HBO and that is not what they do.

First, I don't think it had to be rape to begin with. They could have had another 'thing' happen that snaps Reek out of his funk. Sansa has more than enough ammo to hate the Boltons and take revenge, so this is basically still about Theon. I think Ramsey punishing Sansa for something Reek did and telling him that he is going to turn her into a female Reek would be just as twisted, snap Reek, and show us something different while staying in character for everybody.

If they are sitting around brainstorming and it just HAS to be rape that is done to her, I think yes - it could have been written different ways. Like you said, there could have been a cut after Reek enters, and we hear something going on. There could be a conversation the next morning - maybe Sansa yells at Reek for not stepping in, telling us that he was there. More ####ed up - maybe after Ramsey comes into the room we pan over and see Reek in a portable cage in the corner of the room or some ####.

I just think that rape in particular is a very hot button topic for people, so if you are going to depict in on screen you should be very careful about how you do it or make sure there is a purpose to showing it. This show doesn't seem to agree with that, and it has caused some backlash for them.

I understand this. I really do. I just still don't agree.

The main starting point for almost all of the hate for this scene is that "Sansa has suffered enough." So to me, that tells me that everyone was ok with what she has gone through previously. Psychological torture and some physical torture at the hands of Joffrey. Humiliation of the worst kind after that. Being used as a pawn by Littlefinger. All of that was ok somehow simpy because this now is worse. In fact, it was ok before hand because it was hoped that she would grow from it somehow. Now all of the sudden, what? She can't grow from this? A woman in a world where woman are raped and treated as less then second class citizens was raped in a situation that she herself had total control over and allowed to happen (within the context of the show, I'm not going down the line of real world rape. No woman deserves it for any reason ever so let's not go there).

So, what the people complaining about now are saying is that - we are ok with killing babies (live babies, not an abortion type thing) we are ok with people getting their throat cut; we kinda like the bad guy good guy bad guy thing from The Hound when he beat that poor dad for all his money because he had some good one liners during his time on screen; a really huge guy crushed a guys skull, women are tortured, raped, murdered and worse for simply being women; a pregnant mother has her baby eviscerated in her womb during a party, people are beheaded for ridiculous nonsense, children are poisoning other children and so on and so on and so on.....

.... but this is going too far? Really? What about Walter Frey's innocent daughter/wife whom Catherine killed just because she was standing there? Where is the outrage for her death? Everyone pretty much loves Jamie now for the most part but he threw a kid off a balcony. Panty wad people are getting all worked up about this particular horrible and by doing so are basically saying that everything else is ok, entertaining, understandable, part of the story, artistic license, used a plot to set up a better revenge type thing. There are websites out there posting now that they will no longer promote or follow the show because this is just too far.

It's ridiculous. It's a fricken TV show that has magic dwarfs, dragons, and ghost monsters who are birthed like babies and stone men that Marvel would be pround of. Give me a break. People love outrage because it gives them a sense of purpose. I can understand hating the scene for the changes it makes to the underlying story from the books. That I get. The book people hating it because they liked the book version of the story better - I get that. I think they are nuts for different reasons, but I get that. The real world outrage? Really? C'mon.

You make good points, and I know I am coming off as being so upset about this that I am not going to watch anymore, but that is not the case. I am just saying that I get why people are upset and I thing they good reason to be.

For me personally, Robb's wife getting stabbed in the stomach was worse. Maybe because it was shown, it was more of a surprise, I don't know. But with rape on campus and in general being a hot button topic and an extremely sensitive one, HBO doesn't seem to give to craps about how they handle it, or for what reason they do it.

I don't want to make it seem like I am out with a sign at HBO's studios or anything, I am just having a discussion on a message board. I have friends who have been raped, so maybe it is hitting home a bit and I get more upset than I should when people talk about even a fictional character being in that position or that it is just showing a "loss of innocence" or that it was just expected on the wedding night.

It is a fictional universe, BUT they are choosing how they are showing some real life situations that hit home for people in a very visceral way.

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Karma

I agree with your take pretty much 100%. Question I was asking myself and wondering how you felt. Could they have shot the scene differently and more implied that she was raped and Theon was made to watch and been ok here with the outrage from many watchers? Maybe brought her into the room, made Theon enter as well and closed the door and just gotten some audio of a ripped dress and some tears from Sansa or something? I'm trying to figure out how they could have made the point in a softer way. I guess then the show wouldn't be GoT since that's what they are so good at.

I'll say this, it's nice to have someone to hate again as much as I hated Joffrey. Bolton was surely detestable but he was torturing a character that I wasn't too sympathetic about so it was a weird place to be.

Good question, and I think that they could have handled it differently, but as you and others have said - this is HBO and that is not what they do.

First, I don't think it had to be rape to begin with. They could have had another 'thing' happen that snaps Reek out of his funk. Sansa has more than enough ammo to hate the Boltons and take revenge, so this is basically still about Theon. I think Ramsey punishing Sansa for something Reek did and telling him that he is going to turn her into a female Reek would be just as twisted, snap Reek, and show us something different while staying in character for everybody.

If they are sitting around brainstorming and it just HAS to be rape that is done to her, I think yes - it could have been written different ways. Like you said, there could have been a cut after Reek enters, and we hear something going on. There could be a conversation the next morning - maybe Sansa yells at Reek for not stepping in, telling us that he was there. More ####ed up - maybe after Ramsey comes into the room we pan over and see Reek in a portable cage in the corner of the room or some ####.

I just think that rape in particular is a very hot button topic for people, so if you are going to depict in on screen you should be very careful about how you do it or make sure there is a purpose to showing it. This show doesn't seem to agree with that, and it has caused some backlash for them.

I understand this. I really do. I just still don't agree.

The main starting point for almost all of the hate for this scene is that "Sansa has suffered enough." So to me, that tells me that everyone was ok with what she has gone through previously. Psychological torture and some physical torture at the hands of Joffrey. Humiliation of the worst kind after that. Being used as a pawn by Littlefinger. All of that was ok somehow simpy because this now is worse. In fact, it was ok before hand because it was hoped that she would grow from it somehow. Now all of the sudden, what? She can't grow from this? A woman in a world where woman are raped and treated as less then second class citizens was raped in a situation that she herself had total control over and allowed to happen (within the context of the show, I'm not going down the line of real world rape. No woman deserves it for any reason ever so let's not go there).

So, what the people complaining about now are saying is that - we are ok with killing babies (live babies, not an abortion type thing) we are ok with people getting their throat cut; we kinda like the bad guy good guy bad guy thing from The Hound when he beat that poor dad for all his money because he had some good one liners during his time on screen; a really huge guy crushed a guys skull, women are tortured, raped, murdered and worse for simply being women; a pregnant mother has her baby eviscerated in her womb during a party, people are beheaded for ridiculous nonsense, children are poisoning other children and so on and so on and so on.....

.... but this is going too far? Really? What about Walter Frey's innocent daughter/wife whom Catherine killed just because she was standing there? Where is the outrage for her death? Everyone pretty much loves Jamie now for the most part but he threw a kid off a balcony. Panty wad people are getting all worked up about this particular horrible and by doing so are basically saying that everything else is ok, entertaining, understandable, part of the story, artistic license, used a plot to set up a better revenge type thing. There are websites out there posting now that they will no longer promote or follow the show because this is just too far.

It's ridiculous. It's a fricken TV show that has magic dwarfs, dragons, and ghost monsters who are birthed like babies and stone men that Marvel would be pround of. Give me a break. People love outrage because it gives them a sense of purpose. I can understand hating the scene for the changes it makes to the underlying story from the books. That I get. The book people hating it because they liked the book version of the story better - I get that. I think they are nuts for different reasons, but I get that. The real world outrage? Really? C'mon.

The irony here is overwhelming. You are far more outraged at the "outrage" than anyone is at the show. Every article or review I've seen that takes issue with the incident is more criticism than outrage. You want to talk about people loving outrage because it gives them a sense of purpose? Read the last couple pages of this thread. Who seems more outraged- the people who didn't like the scene or the people pushing back against that sentiment?

I"m just waiting for my coffee to kick in before I get to work today and doing mindless TV talk. I think your attempt to be hollier than thou is truly wasted on someone like me.

It's not an attempt to be holier than thou, and it's not just you. The irony is everywhere. 95% of the outrage on this subject is coming from people who are outraged about people criticizing a TV show and are making silly straw man arguments in response to that criticism. One guy even said "you can't show rape on TV or movies now?" even though nobody has ever said anything even close to that. Honestly it's pretty hilarious.

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People have way too much time on their hands. You can't show rape on tv or movies now? Do these folks know that the actors aren't Actually getting raped?

People are stupid.

Is there anyone in here that said they can't show it or believe that the actress actually got raped?

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It is a fictional universe, BUT they are choosing how they are showing some real life situations that hit home for people in a very visceral way.

Very true. And again - I have no real life lesson or care for this show. It's entertainment. True, what we call entertainment these days is pretty sick sometimes, but alas... I would have preferred she killed him or Theon killed him. Would have been much more pleasing. There better be a pretty solid 10 minute torture and kill scene for that guy at least this season.

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Karma

I agree with your take pretty much 100%. Question I was asking myself and wondering how you felt. Could they have shot the scene differently and more implied that she was raped and Theon was made to watch and been ok here with the outrage from many watchers? Maybe brought her into the room, made Theon enter as well and closed the door and just gotten some audio of a ripped dress and some tears from Sansa or something? I'm trying to figure out how they could have made the point in a softer way. I guess then the show wouldn't be GoT since that's what they are so good at.

I'll say this, it's nice to have someone to hate again as much as I hated Joffrey. Bolton was surely detestable but he was torturing a character that I wasn't too sympathetic about so it was a weird place to be.

Good question, and I think that they could have handled it differently, but as you and others have said - this is HBO and that is not what they do.

First, I don't think it had to be rape to begin with. They could have had another 'thing' happen that snaps Reek out of his funk. Sansa has more than enough ammo to hate the Boltons and take revenge, so this is basically still about Theon. I think Ramsey punishing Sansa for something Reek did and telling him that he is going to turn her into a female Reek would be just as twisted, snap Reek, and show us something different while staying in character for everybody.

If they are sitting around brainstorming and it just HAS to be rape that is done to her, I think yes - it could have been written different ways. Like you said, there could have been a cut after Reek enters, and we hear something going on. There could be a conversation the next morning - maybe Sansa yells at Reek for not stepping in, telling us that he was there. More ####ed up - maybe after Ramsey comes into the room we pan over and see Reek in a portable cage in the corner of the room or some ####.

I just think that rape in particular is a very hot button topic for people, so if you are going to depict in on screen you should be very careful about how you do it or make sure there is a purpose to showing it. This show doesn't seem to agree with that, and it has caused some backlash for them.

I understand this. I really do. I just still don't agree.

The main starting point for almost all of the hate for this scene is that "Sansa has suffered enough." So to me, that tells me that everyone was ok with what she has gone through previously. Psychological torture and some physical torture at the hands of Joffrey. Humiliation of the worst kind after that. Being used as a pawn by Littlefinger. All of that was ok somehow simpy because this now is worse. In fact, it was ok before hand because it was hoped that she would grow from it somehow. Now all of the sudden, what? She can't grow from this? A woman in a world where woman are raped and treated as less then second class citizens was raped in a situation that she herself had total control over and allowed to happen (within the context of the show, I'm not going down the line of real world rape. No woman deserves it for any reason ever so let's not go there).

So, what the people complaining about now are saying is that - we are ok with killing babies (live babies, not an abortion type thing) we are ok with people getting their throat cut; we kinda like the bad guy good guy bad guy thing from The Hound when he beat that poor dad for all his money because he had some good one liners during his time on screen; a really huge guy crushed a guys skull, women are tortured, raped, murdered and worse for simply being women; a pregnant mother has her baby eviscerated in her womb during a party, people are beheaded for ridiculous nonsense, children are poisoning other children and so on and so on and so on.....

.... but this is going too far? Really? What about Walter Frey's innocent daughter/wife whom Catherine killed just because she was standing there? Where is the outrage for her death? Everyone pretty much loves Jamie now for the most part but he threw a kid off a balcony. Panty wad people are getting all worked up about this particular horrible and by doing so are basically saying that everything else is ok, entertaining, understandable, part of the story, artistic license, used a plot to set up a better revenge type thing. There are websites out there posting now that they will no longer promote or follow the show because this is just too far.

It's ridiculous. It's a fricken TV show that has magic dwarfs, dragons, and ghost monsters who are birthed like babies and stone men that Marvel would be pround of. Give me a break. People love outrage because it gives them a sense of purpose. I can understand hating the scene for the changes it makes to the underlying story from the books. That I get. The book people hating it because they liked the book version of the story better - I get that. I think they are nuts for different reasons, but I get that. The real world outrage? Really? C'mon.

The irony here is overwhelming. You are far more outraged at the "outrage" than anyone is at the show. Every article or review I've seen that takes issue with the incident is more criticism than outrage. You want to talk about people loving outrage because it gives them a sense of purpose? Read the last couple pages of this thread. Who seems more outraged- the people who didn't like the scene or the people pushing back against that sentiment?

I"m just waiting for my coffee to kick in before I get to work today and doing mindless TV talk. I think your attempt to be hollier than thou is truly wasted on someone like me.

It's not an attempt to be holier than thou, and it's not just you. The irony is everywhere. 95% of the outrage on this subject is coming from people who are outraged about people criticizing a TV show and are making silly straw man arguments in response to that criticism. One guy even said "you can't show rape on TV or movies now?" even though nobody has ever said anything even close to that. Honestly it's pretty hilarious.

I just read a blog that laid out why they weren't going to cover the show anymore because of this scene that is pretty much a direct refutation of your opinion. But I get it. Outrage breeds reciprocal outrage and the argument takes off. I really have no skin in this game at all. I enjoy the argument more than the substance.

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Karma

I agree with your take pretty much 100%. Question I was asking myself and wondering how you felt. Could they have shot the scene differently and more implied that she was raped and Theon was made to watch and been ok here with the outrage from many watchers? Maybe brought her into the room, made Theon enter as well and closed the door and just gotten some audio of a ripped dress and some tears from Sansa or something? I'm trying to figure out how they could have made the point in a softer way. I guess then the show wouldn't be GoT since that's what they are so good at.

I'll say this, it's nice to have someone to hate again as much as I hated Joffrey. Bolton was surely detestable but he was torturing a character that I wasn't too sympathetic about so it was a weird place to be.

Good question, and I think that they could have handled it differently, but as you and others have said - this is HBO and that is not what they do.

First, I don't think it had to be rape to begin with. They could have had another 'thing' happen that snaps Reek out of his funk. Sansa has more than enough ammo to hate the Boltons and take revenge, so this is basically still about Theon. I think Ramsey punishing Sansa for something Reek did and telling him that he is going to turn her into a female Reek would be just as twisted, snap Reek, and show us something different while staying in character for everybody.

If they are sitting around brainstorming and it just HAS to be rape that is done to her, I think yes - it could have been written different ways. Like you said, there could have been a cut after Reek enters, and we hear something going on. There could be a conversation the next morning - maybe Sansa yells at Reek for not stepping in, telling us that he was there. More ####ed up - maybe after Ramsey comes into the room we pan over and see Reek in a portable cage in the corner of the room or some ####.

I just think that rape in particular is a very hot button topic for people, so if you are going to depict in on screen you should be very careful about how you do it or make sure there is a purpose to showing it. This show doesn't seem to agree with that, and it has caused some backlash for them.

I understand this. I really do. I just still don't agree.

The main starting point for almost all of the hate for this scene is that "Sansa has suffered enough." So to me, that tells me that everyone was ok with what she has gone through previously. Psychological torture and some physical torture at the hands of Joffrey. Humiliation of the worst kind after that. Being used as a pawn by Littlefinger. All of that was ok somehow simpy because this now is worse. In fact, it was ok before hand because it was hoped that she would grow from it somehow. Now all of the sudden, what? She can't grow from this? A woman in a world where woman are raped and treated as less then second class citizens was raped in a situation that she herself had total control over and allowed to happen (within the context of the show, I'm not going down the line of real world rape. No woman deserves it for any reason ever so let's not go there).

So, what the people complaining about now are saying is that - we are ok with killing babies (live babies, not an abortion type thing) we are ok with people getting their throat cut; we kinda like the bad guy good guy bad guy thing from The Hound when he beat that poor dad for all his money because he had some good one liners during his time on screen; a really huge guy crushed a guys skull, women are tortured, raped, murdered and worse for simply being women; a pregnant mother has her baby eviscerated in her womb during a party, people are beheaded for ridiculous nonsense, children are poisoning other children and so on and so on and so on.....

.... but this is going too far? Really? What about Walter Frey's innocent daughter/wife whom Catherine killed just because she was standing there? Where is the outrage for her death? Everyone pretty much loves Jamie now for the most part but he threw a kid off a balcony. Panty wad people are getting all worked up about this particular horrible and by doing so are basically saying that everything else is ok, entertaining, understandable, part of the story, artistic license, used a plot to set up a better revenge type thing. There are websites out there posting now that they will no longer promote or follow the show because this is just too far.

It's ridiculous. It's a fricken TV show that has magic dwarfs, dragons, and ghost monsters who are birthed like babies and stone men that Marvel would be pround of. Give me a break. People love outrage because it gives them a sense of purpose. I can understand hating the scene for the changes it makes to the underlying story from the books. That I get. The book people hating it because they liked the book version of the story better - I get that. I think they are nuts for different reasons, but I get that. The real world outrage? Really? C'mon.

The irony here is overwhelming. You are far more outraged at the "outrage" than anyone is at the show. Every article or review I've seen that takes issue with the incident is more criticism than outrage. You want to talk about people loving outrage because it gives them a sense of purpose? Read the last couple pages of this thread. Who seems more outraged- the people who didn't like the scene or the people pushing back against that sentiment?

I"m just waiting for my coffee to kick in before I get to work today and doing mindless TV talk. I think your attempt to be hollier than thou is truly wasted on someone like me.

It's not an attempt to be holier than thou, and it's not just you. The irony is everywhere. 95% of the outrage on this subject is coming from people who are outraged about people criticizing a TV show and are making silly straw man arguments in response to that criticism. One guy even said "you can't show rape on TV or movies now?" even though nobody has ever said anything even close to that. Honestly it's pretty hilarious.

I just read a blog that laid out why they weren't going to cover the show anymore because of this scene that is pretty much a direct refutation of your opinion. But I get it. Outrage breeds reciprocal outrage and the argument takes off. I really have no skin in this game at all. I enjoy the argument more than the substance.

Link?

Not because I don't believe you. Because I want to laugh at them.

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Just curious - are a lot of your reactions just a guy thing? Do you watch the show with your wife, and does she get upset by scenes like this or others that they have shown. Everybody has different triggers - my wife is a veterinarian and she saw the episodes in Season 1 where they decapitate a horse and had to kill a wolf and refuses to watch anything else of the show.

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People have way too much time on their hands. You can't show rape on tv or movies now? Do these folks know that the actors aren't Actually getting raped?

People are stupid.

Is there anyone in here that said they can't show it or believe that the actress actually got raped?

Here, no. But that is an argument making the rounds. I may have said it in here at some point, but the gratuitous sex just for the sake of it is pretty useless to me at this point. I get it. I don't need the brothel scenes anymore really. I know I have to suspend my man card for 30 days with this at this point, but if show cut back on all the sex scenes a great deal and only used them sparringly when absolutely necessary to the scene itself (like Greyworm seeing that hot chick in the river) then I'd be fine. They set the background. I got it.

Which, of course, to hurt my own argument above, is one of the main arguments against Sansa's scene - we get it already. Do something different or at least not show it in any way and just reference it later somehow. I get it.

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Just curious - are a lot of your reactions just a guy thing? Do you watch the show with your wife, and does she get upset by scenes like this or others that they have shown. Everybody has different triggers - my wife is a veterinarian and she saw the episodes in Season 1 where they decapitate a horse and had to kill a wolf and refuses to watch anything else of the show.

My wife watched the first episode with me when I binged the first 4 seasons and kicked me out of the bedroom. She refuses to even allow it on the TV when she is in the same room. She is very much a person who requires her book tv and movie entertainment to have a clear and obvious happy ending to the story or she hates it, so this show is pretty much the connection of everything she hates in entertainment.

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Was this rape? Seems like everyone is classifying it as that but seems kinda a gray area to me. I guess he intimidated her into doing something she didn't want to do which makes it such. But it was also their wedding night and he didn't exactly force himself upon her.

Besides ripping her dress off and forcibly bending her over?

Small point of order - really really small. Did he forcibly bend her over? I didn't get that sense. He definately ripped her dress and made it clear what he was going to do, but I thought she kinda laid down on her own? Again, small thing.

I think he guided her down...

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Karma

I agree with your take pretty much 100%. Question I was asking myself and wondering how you felt. Could they have shot the scene differently and more implied that she was raped and Theon was made to watch and been ok here with the outrage from many watchers? Maybe brought her into the room, made Theon enter as well and closed the door and just gotten some audio of a ripped dress and some tears from Sansa or something? I'm trying to figure out how they could have made the point in a softer way. I guess then the show wouldn't be GoT since that's what they are so good at.

I'll say this, it's nice to have someone to hate again as much as I hated Joffrey. Bolton was surely detestable but he was torturing a character that I wasn't too sympathetic about so it was a weird place to be.

Good question, and I think that they could have handled it differently, but as you and others have said - this is HBO and that is not what they do.

First, I don't think it had to be rape to begin with. They could have had another 'thing' happen that snaps Reek out of his funk. Sansa has more than enough ammo to hate the Boltons and take revenge, so this is basically still about Theon. I think Ramsey punishing Sansa for something Reek did and telling him that he is going to turn her into a female Reek would be just as twisted, snap Reek, and show us something different while staying in character for everybody.

If they are sitting around brainstorming and it just HAS to be rape that is done to her, I think yes - it could have been written different ways. Like you said, there could have been a cut after Reek enters, and we hear something going on. There could be a conversation the next morning - maybe Sansa yells at Reek for not stepping in, telling us that he was there. More ####ed up - maybe after Ramsey comes into the room we pan over and see Reek in a portable cage in the corner of the room or some ####.

I just think that rape in particular is a very hot button topic for people, so if you are going to depict in on screen you should be very careful about how you do it or make sure there is a purpose to showing it. This show doesn't seem to agree with that, and it has caused some backlash for them.

I understand this. I really do. I just still don't agree.

The main starting point for almost all of the hate for this scene is that "Sansa has suffered enough." So to me, that tells me that everyone was ok with what she has gone through previously. Psychological torture and some physical torture at the hands of Joffrey. Humiliation of the worst kind after that. Being used as a pawn by Littlefinger. All of that was ok somehow simpy because this now is worse. In fact, it was ok before hand because it was hoped that she would grow from it somehow. Now all of the sudden, what? She can't grow from this? A woman in a world where woman are raped and treated as less then second class citizens was raped in a situation that she herself had total control over and allowed to happen (within the context of the show, I'm not going down the line of real world rape. No woman deserves it for any reason ever so let's not go there).

So, what the people complaining about now are saying is that - we are ok with killing babies (live babies, not an abortion type thing) we are ok with people getting their throat cut; we kinda like the bad guy good guy bad guy thing from The Hound when he beat that poor dad for all his money because he had some good one liners during his time on screen; a really huge guy crushed a guys skull, women are tortured, raped, murdered and worse for simply being women; a pregnant mother has her baby eviscerated in her womb during a party, people are beheaded for ridiculous nonsense, children are poisoning other children and so on and so on and so on.....

.... but this is going too far? Really? What about Walter Frey's innocent daughter/wife whom Catherine killed just because she was standing there? Where is the outrage for her death? Everyone pretty much loves Jamie now for the most part but he threw a kid off a balcony. Panty wad people are getting all worked up about this particular horrible and by doing so are basically saying that everything else is ok, entertaining, understandable, part of the story, artistic license, used a plot to set up a better revenge type thing. There are websites out there posting now that they will no longer promote or follow the show because this is just too far.

It's ridiculous. It's a fricken TV show that has magic dwarfs, dragons, and ghost monsters who are birthed like babies and stone men that Marvel would be pround of. Give me a break. People love outrage because it gives them a sense of purpose. I can understand hating the scene for the changes it makes to the underlying story from the books. That I get. The book people hating it because they liked the book version of the story better - I get that. I think they are nuts for different reasons, but I get that. The real world outrage? Really? C'mon.

The irony here is overwhelming. You are far more outraged at the "outrage" than anyone is at the show. Every article or review I've seen that takes issue with the incident is more criticism than outrage. You want to talk about people loving outrage because it gives them a sense of purpose? Read the last couple pages of this thread. Who seems more outraged- the people who didn't like the scene or the people pushing back against that sentiment?

I"m just waiting for my coffee to kick in before I get to work today and doing mindless TV talk. I think your attempt to be hollier than thou is truly wasted on someone like me.

It's not an attempt to be holier than thou, and it's not just you. The irony is everywhere. 95% of the outrage on this subject is coming from people who are outraged about people criticizing a TV show and are making silly straw man arguments in response to that criticism. One guy even said "you can't show rape on TV or movies now?" even though nobody has ever said anything even close to that. Honestly it's pretty hilarious.

I just read a blog that laid out why they weren't going to cover the show anymore because of this scene that is pretty much a direct refutation of your opinion. But I get it. Outrage breeds reciprocal outrage and the argument takes off. I really have no skin in this game at all. I enjoy the argument more than the substance.

Link?

Not because I don't believe you. Because I want to laugh at them.

Something like The Mary Sue tv blog? It was the top thing in google when I typed in game of thrones thinking I was on this site already.

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Karma

I agree with your take pretty much 100%. Question I was asking myself and wondering how you felt. Could they have shot the scene differently and more implied that she was raped and Theon was made to watch and been ok here with the outrage from many watchers? Maybe brought her into the room, made Theon enter as well and closed the door and just gotten some audio of a ripped dress and some tears from Sansa or something? I'm trying to figure out how they could have made the point in a softer way. I guess then the show wouldn't be GoT since that's what they are so good at.

I'll say this, it's nice to have someone to hate again as much as I hated Joffrey. Bolton was surely detestable but he was torturing a character that I wasn't too sympathetic about so it was a weird place to be.

Good question, and I think that they could have handled it differently, but as you and others have said - this is HBO and that is not what they do.

First, I don't think it had to be rape to begin with. They could have had another 'thing' happen that snaps Reek out of his funk. Sansa has more than enough ammo to hate the Boltons and take revenge, so this is basically still about Theon. I think Ramsey punishing Sansa for something Reek did and telling him that he is going to turn her into a female Reek would be just as twisted, snap Reek, and show us something different while staying in character for everybody.

If they are sitting around brainstorming and it just HAS to be rape that is done to her, I think yes - it could have been written different ways. Like you said, there could have been a cut after Reek enters, and we hear something going on. There could be a conversation the next morning - maybe Sansa yells at Reek for not stepping in, telling us that he was there. More ####ed up - maybe after Ramsey comes into the room we pan over and see Reek in a portable cage in the corner of the room or some ####.

I just think that rape in particular is a very hot button topic for people, so if you are going to depict in on screen you should be very careful about how you do it or make sure there is a purpose to showing it. This show doesn't seem to agree with that, and it has caused some backlash for them.

I understand this. I really do. I just still don't agree.

The main starting point for almost all of the hate for this scene is that "Sansa has suffered enough." So to me, that tells me that everyone was ok with what she has gone through previously. Psychological torture and some physical torture at the hands of Joffrey. Humiliation of the worst kind after that. Being used as a pawn by Littlefinger. All of that was ok somehow simpy because this now is worse. In fact, it was ok before hand because it was hoped that she would grow from it somehow. Now all of the sudden, what? She can't grow from this? A woman in a world where woman are raped and treated as less then second class citizens was raped in a situation that she herself had total control over and allowed to happen (within the context of the show, I'm not going down the line of real world rape. No woman deserves it for any reason ever so let's not go there).

So, what the people complaining about now are saying is that - we are ok with killing babies (live babies, not an abortion type thing) we are ok with people getting their throat cut; we kinda like the bad guy good guy bad guy thing from The Hound when he beat that poor dad for all his money because he had some good one liners during his time on screen; a really huge guy crushed a guys skull, women are tortured, raped, murdered and worse for simply being women; a pregnant mother has her baby eviscerated in her womb during a party, people are beheaded for ridiculous nonsense, children are poisoning other children and so on and so on and so on.....

.... but this is going too far? Really? What about Walter Frey's innocent daughter/wife whom Catherine killed just because she was standing there? Where is the outrage for her death? Everyone pretty much loves Jamie now for the most part but he threw a kid off a balcony. Panty wad people are getting all worked up about this particular horrible and by doing so are basically saying that everything else is ok, entertaining, understandable, part of the story, artistic license, used a plot to set up a better revenge type thing. There are websites out there posting now that they will no longer promote or follow the show because this is just too far.

It's ridiculous. It's a fricken TV show that has magic dwarfs, dragons, and ghost monsters who are birthed like babies and stone men that Marvel would be pround of. Give me a break. People love outrage because it gives them a sense of purpose. I can understand hating the scene for the changes it makes to the underlying story from the books. That I get. The book people hating it because they liked the book version of the story better - I get that. I think they are nuts for different reasons, but I get that. The real world outrage? Really? C'mon.

The irony here is overwhelming. You are far more outraged at the "outrage" than anyone is at the show. Every article or review I've seen that takes issue with the incident is more criticism than outrage. You want to talk about people loving outrage because it gives them a sense of purpose? Read the last couple pages of this thread. Who seems more outraged- the people who didn't like the scene or the people pushing back against that sentiment?

I"m just waiting for my coffee to kick in before I get to work today and doing mindless TV talk. I think your attempt to be hollier than thou is truly wasted on someone like me.

It's not an attempt to be holier than thou, and it's not just you. The irony is everywhere. 95% of the outrage on this subject is coming from people who are outraged about people criticizing a TV show and are making silly straw man arguments in response to that criticism. One guy even said "you can't show rape on TV or movies now?" even though nobody has ever said anything even close to that. Honestly it's pretty hilarious.

I just read a blog that laid out why they weren't going to cover the show anymore because of this scene that is pretty much a direct refutation of your opinion. But I get it. Outrage breeds reciprocal outrage and the argument takes off. I really have no skin in this game at all. I enjoy the argument more than the substance.

Link?

Not because I don't believe you. Because I want to laugh at them.

Mary Sue, wait!

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Karma

I agree with your take pretty much 100%. Question I was asking myself and wondering how you felt. Could they have shot the scene differently and more implied that she was raped and Theon was made to watch and been ok here with the outrage from many watchers? Maybe brought her into the room, made Theon enter as well and closed the door and just gotten some audio of a ripped dress and some tears from Sansa or something? I'm trying to figure out how they could have made the point in a softer way. I guess then the show wouldn't be GoT since that's what they are so good at.

I'll say this, it's nice to have someone to hate again as much as I hated Joffrey. Bolton was surely detestable but he was torturing a character that I wasn't too sympathetic about so it was a weird place to be.

Good question, and I think that they could have handled it differently, but as you and others have said - this is HBO and that is not what they do.

First, I don't think it had to be rape to begin with. They could have had another 'thing' happen that snaps Reek out of his funk. Sansa has more than enough ammo to hate the Boltons and take revenge, so this is basically still about Theon. I think Ramsey punishing Sansa for something Reek did and telling him that he is going to turn her into a female Reek would be just as twisted, snap Reek, and show us something different while staying in character for everybody.

If they are sitting around brainstorming and it just HAS to be rape that is done to her, I think yes - it could have been written different ways. Like you said, there could have been a cut after Reek enters, and we hear something going on. There could be a conversation the next morning - maybe Sansa yells at Reek for not stepping in, telling us that he was there. More ####ed up - maybe after Ramsey comes into the room we pan over and see Reek in a portable cage in the corner of the room or some ####.

I just think that rape in particular is a very hot button topic for people, so if you are going to depict in on screen you should be very careful about how you do it or make sure there is a purpose to showing it. This show doesn't seem to agree with that, and it has caused some backlash for them.

I understand this. I really do. I just still don't agree.

The main starting point for almost all of the hate for this scene is that "Sansa has suffered enough." So to me, that tells me that everyone was ok with what she has gone through previously. Psychological torture and some physical torture at the hands of Joffrey. Humiliation of the worst kind after that. Being used as a pawn by Littlefinger. All of that was ok somehow simpy because this now is worse. In fact, it was ok before hand because it was hoped that she would grow from it somehow. Now all of the sudden, what? She can't grow from this? A woman in a world where woman are raped and treated as less then second class citizens was raped in a situation that she herself had total control over and allowed to happen (within the context of the show, I'm not going down the line of real world rape. No woman deserves it for any reason ever so let's not go there).

So, what the people complaining about now are saying is that - we are ok with killing babies (live babies, not an abortion type thing) we are ok with people getting their throat cut; we kinda like the bad guy good guy bad guy thing from The Hound when he beat that poor dad for all his money because he had some good one liners during his time on screen; a really huge guy crushed a guys skull, women are tortured, raped, murdered and worse for simply being women; a pregnant mother has her baby eviscerated in her womb during a party, people are beheaded for ridiculous nonsense, children are poisoning other children and so on and so on and so on.....

.... but this is going too far? Really? What about Walter Frey's innocent daughter/wife whom Catherine killed just because she was standing there? Where is the outrage for her death? Everyone pretty much loves Jamie now for the most part but he threw a kid off a balcony. Panty wad people are getting all worked up about this particular horrible and by doing so are basically saying that everything else is ok, entertaining, understandable, part of the story, artistic license, used a plot to set up a better revenge type thing. There are websites out there posting now that they will no longer promote or follow the show because this is just too far.

It's ridiculous. It's a fricken TV show that has magic dwarfs, dragons, and ghost monsters who are birthed like babies and stone men that Marvel would be pround of. Give me a break. People love outrage because it gives them a sense of purpose. I can understand hating the scene for the changes it makes to the underlying story from the books. That I get. The book people hating it because they liked the book version of the story better - I get that. I think they are nuts for different reasons, but I get that. The real world outrage? Really? C'mon.

You make good points, and I know I am coming off as being so upset about this that I am not going to watch anymore, but that is not the case. I am just saying that I get why people are upset and I thing they good reason to be.

For me personally, Robb's wife getting stabbed in the stomach was worse. Maybe because it was shown, it was more of a surprise, I don't know. But with rape on campus and in general being a hot button topic and an extremely sensitive one, HBO doesn't seem to give to craps about how they handle it, or for what reason they do it.

I don't want to make it seem like I am out with a sign at HBO's studios or anything, I am just having a discussion on a message board. I have friends who have been raped, so maybe it is hitting home a bit and I get more upset than I should when people talk about even a fictional character being in that position or that it is just showing a "loss of innocence" or that it was just expected on the wedding night.

It is a fictional universe, BUT they are choosing how they are showing some real life situations that hit home for people in a very visceral way.

As they have in the entire series.

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To be fair, my befuddlement over the "outrage" is a result of knowing how it went down/what happened to the girl Ramsey married in the books. I didn't watch the show Sun. Night....yet awoke to all this outrage over "the incident" and assumed that what happened in the books happened on the show. When it didn't, and what was shown was tamer and less brutal than a number of other incidents of violence on the show....the outrage didn't make much sense. Hence...my befuddlement.

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Karma

I agree with your take pretty much 100%. Question I was asking myself and wondering how you felt. Could they have shot the scene differently and more implied that she was raped and Theon was made to watch and been ok here with the outrage from many watchers? Maybe brought her into the room, made Theon enter as well and closed the door and just gotten some audio of a ripped dress and some tears from Sansa or something? I'm trying to figure out how they could have made the point in a softer way. I guess then the show wouldn't be GoT since that's what they are so good at.

I'll say this, it's nice to have someone to hate again as much as I hated Joffrey. Bolton was surely detestable but he was torturing a character that I wasn't too sympathetic about so it was a weird place to be.

Good question, and I think that they could have handled it differently, but as you and others have said - this is HBO and that is not what they do.

First, I don't think it had to be rape to begin with. They could have had another 'thing' happen that snaps Reek out of his funk. Sansa has more than enough ammo to hate the Boltons and take revenge, so this is basically still about Theon. I think Ramsey punishing Sansa for something Reek did and telling him that he is going to turn her into a female Reek would be just as twisted, snap Reek, and show us something different while staying in character for everybody.

If they are sitting around brainstorming and it just HAS to be rape that is done to her, I think yes - it could have been written different ways. Like you said, there could have been a cut after Reek enters, and we hear something going on. There could be a conversation the next morning - maybe Sansa yells at Reek for not stepping in, telling us that he was there. More ####ed up - maybe after Ramsey comes into the room we pan over and see Reek in a portable cage in the corner of the room or some ####.

I just think that rape in particular is a very hot button topic for people, so if you are going to depict in on screen you should be very careful about how you do it or make sure there is a purpose to showing it. This show doesn't seem to agree with that, and it has caused some backlash for them.

I understand this. I really do. I just still don't agree.

The main starting point for almost all of the hate for this scene is that "Sansa has suffered enough." So to me, that tells me that everyone was ok with what she has gone through previously. Psychological torture and some physical torture at the hands of Joffrey. Humiliation of the worst kind after that. Being used as a pawn by Littlefinger. All of that was ok somehow simpy because this now is worse. In fact, it was ok before hand because it was hoped that she would grow from it somehow. Now all of the sudden, what? She can't grow from this? A woman in a world where woman are raped and treated as less then second class citizens was raped in a situation that she herself had total control over and allowed to happen (within the context of the show, I'm not going down the line of real world rape. No woman deserves it for any reason ever so let's not go there).

So, what the people complaining about now are saying is that - we are ok with killing babies (live babies, not an abortion type thing) we are ok with people getting their throat cut; we kinda like the bad guy good guy bad guy thing from The Hound when he beat that poor dad for all his money because he had some good one liners during his time on screen; a really huge guy crushed a guys skull, women are tortured, raped, murdered and worse for simply being women; a pregnant mother has her baby eviscerated in her womb during a party, people are beheaded for ridiculous nonsense, children are poisoning other children and so on and so on and so on.....

.... but this is going too far? Really? What about Walter Frey's innocent daughter/wife whom Catherine killed just because she was standing there? Where is the outrage for her death? Everyone pretty much loves Jamie now for the most part but he threw a kid off a balcony. Panty wad people are getting all worked up about this particular horrible and by doing so are basically saying that everything else is ok, entertaining, understandable, part of the story, artistic license, used a plot to set up a better revenge type thing. There are websites out there posting now that they will no longer promote or follow the show because this is just too far.

It's ridiculous. It's a fricken TV show that has magic dwarfs, dragons, and ghost monsters who are birthed like babies and stone men that Marvel would be pround of. Give me a break. People love outrage because it gives them a sense of purpose. I can understand hating the scene for the changes it makes to the underlying story from the books. That I get. The book people hating it because they liked the book version of the story better - I get that. I think they are nuts for different reasons, but I get that. The real world outrage? Really? C'mon.

You make good points, and I know I am coming off as being so upset about this that I am not going to watch anymore, but that is not the case. I am just saying that I get why people are upset and I thing they good reason to be.

For me personally, Robb's wife getting stabbed in the stomach was worse. Maybe because it was shown, it was more of a surprise, I don't know. But with rape on campus and in general being a hot button topic and an extremely sensitive one, HBO doesn't seem to give to craps about how they handle it, or for what reason they do it.

I don't want to make it seem like I am out with a sign at HBO's studios or anything, I am just having a discussion on a message board. I have friends who have been raped, so maybe it is hitting home a bit and I get more upset than I should when people talk about even a fictional character being in that position or that it is just showing a "loss of innocence" or that it was just expected on the wedding night.

It is a fictional universe, BUT they are choosing how they are showing some real life situations that hit home for people in a very visceral way.

As they have in the entire series.

Sure, but I think after 5 seasons a lot of people are tiring of it if it doesn't have a purpose other than they can show it because they are HBO and that is what they do.

Like somebody else said, I am sure a certain bit of this equation is just about across the board people seem to be bored or disappointed with the season in general, so there aren't the normal highs of the show to hide scenes like this that people don't like.

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Well, thread ruined.

last week's endless "discussion" of... thank god I've forgotten what it was... was much worse.

unless we're talking about not getting to see Dany nude any more.

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Not because I don't believe you. Because I want to laugh at them.

Mary Sue, wait!

Now that is ridiculous.

I didn't like it because I thought it was a gratuitous scene (unless something happens during/immediately after it next week, which seems unlikely since they never do that sort of cliffhanger). I thought it was bad TV, a dumb, unpleasant scene in a bad episode of a normally fantastic TV show.

But to drop the show because they "chose to use rape as a plot device?" That makes no sense. They've used rape and other horrible acts as plot devices many many times, as have countless other TV shows and other works of fiction.

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Not because I don't believe you. Because I want to laugh at them.

Mary Sue, wait!

Now that is ridiculous.

I didn't like it because I thought it was a gratuitous scene (unless something happens during/immediately after it next week, which seems unlikely since they never do that sort of cliffhanger). I thought it was bad TV, a dumb, unpleasant scene in a bad episode of a normally fantastic TV show.

But to drop the show because they "chose to use rape as a plot device?" That makes no sense. They've used rape and other horrible acts as plot devices many many times, as have countless other TV shows and other works of fiction.

it doesn't have to happen next week- is the timing important to you?- but I still believe that the scene will lead to further developments before the end of the season.

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Karma

I agree with your take pretty much 100%. Question I was asking myself and wondering how you felt. Could they have shot the scene differently and more implied that she was raped and Theon was made to watch and been ok here with the outrage from many watchers? Maybe brought her into the room, made Theon enter as well and closed the door and just gotten some audio of a ripped dress and some tears from Sansa or something? I'm trying to figure out how they could have made the point in a softer way. I guess then the show wouldn't be GoT since that's what they are so good at.

I'll say this, it's nice to have someone to hate again as much as I hated Joffrey. Bolton was surely detestable but he was torturing a character that I wasn't too sympathetic about so it was a weird place to be.

Good question, and I think that they could have handled it differently, but as you and others have said - this is HBO and that is not what they do.

First, I don't think it had to be rape to begin with. They could have had another 'thing' happen that snaps Reek out of his funk. Sansa has more than enough ammo to hate the Boltons and take revenge, so this is basically still about Theon. I think Ramsey punishing Sansa for something Reek did and telling him that he is going to turn her into a female Reek would be just as twisted, snap Reek, and show us something different while staying in character for everybody.

If they are sitting around brainstorming and it just HAS to be rape that is done to her, I think yes - it could have been written different ways. Like you said, there could have been a cut after Reek enters, and we hear something going on. There could be a conversation the next morning - maybe Sansa yells at Reek for not stepping in, telling us that he was there. More ####ed up - maybe after Ramsey comes into the room we pan over and see Reek in a portable cage in the corner of the room or some ####.

I just think that rape in particular is a very hot button topic for people, so if you are going to depict in on screen you should be very careful about how you do it or make sure there is a purpose to showing it. This show doesn't seem to agree with that, and it has caused some backlash for them.

I understand this. I really do. I just still don't agree.

The main starting point for almost all of the hate for this scene is that "Sansa has suffered enough." So to me, that tells me that everyone was ok with what she has gone through previously. Psychological torture and some physical torture at the hands of Joffrey. Humiliation of the worst kind after that. Being used as a pawn by Littlefinger. All of that was ok somehow simpy because this now is worse. In fact, it was ok before hand because it was hoped that she would grow from it somehow. Now all of the sudden, what? She can't grow from this? A woman in a world where woman are raped and treated as less then second class citizens was raped in a situation that she herself had total control over and allowed to happen (within the context of the show, I'm not going down the line of real world rape. No woman deserves it for any reason ever so let's not go there).

So, what the people complaining about now are saying is that - we are ok with killing babies (live babies, not an abortion type thing) we are ok with people getting their throat cut; we kinda like the bad guy good guy bad guy thing from The Hound when he beat that poor dad for all his money because he had some good one liners during his time on screen; a really huge guy crushed a guys skull, women are tortured, raped, murdered and worse for simply being women; a pregnant mother has her baby eviscerated in her womb during a party, people are beheaded for ridiculous nonsense, children are poisoning other children and so on and so on and so on.....

.... but this is going too far? Really? What about Walter Frey's innocent daughter/wife whom Catherine killed just because she was standing there? Where is the outrage for her death? Everyone pretty much loves Jamie now for the most part but he threw a kid off a balcony. Panty wad people are getting all worked up about this particular horrible and by doing so are basically saying that everything else is ok, entertaining, understandable, part of the story, artistic license, used a plot to set up a better revenge type thing. There are websites out there posting now that they will no longer promote or follow the show because this is just too far.

It's ridiculous. It's a fricken TV show that has magic dwarfs, dragons, and ghost monsters who are birthed like babies and stone men that Marvel would be pround of. Give me a break. People love outrage because it gives them a sense of purpose. I can understand hating the scene for the changes it makes to the underlying story from the books. That I get. The book people hating it because they liked the book version of the story better - I get that. I think they are nuts for different reasons, but I get that. The real world outrage? Really? C'mon.

You make good points, and I know I am coming off as being so upset about this that I am not going to watch anymore, but that is not the case. I am just saying that I get why people are upset and I thing they good reason to be.

For me personally, Robb's wife getting stabbed in the stomach was worse. Maybe because it was shown, it was more of a surprise, I don't know. But with rape on campus and in general being a hot button topic and an extremely sensitive one, HBO doesn't seem to give to craps about how they handle it, or for what reason they do it.

I don't want to make it seem like I am out with a sign at HBO's studios or anything, I am just having a discussion on a message board. I have friends who have been raped, so maybe it is hitting home a bit and I get more upset than I should when people talk about even a fictional character being in that position or that it is just showing a "loss of innocence" or that it was just expected on the wedding night.

It is a fictional universe, BUT they are choosing how they are showing some real life situations that hit home for people in a very visceral way.

As they have in the entire series.

Sure, but I think after 5 seasons a lot of people are tiring of it if it doesn't have a purpose other than they can show it because they are HBO and that is what they do.

Like somebody else said, I am sure a certain bit of this equation is just about across the board people seem to be bored or disappointed with the season in general, so there aren't the normal highs of the show to hide scenes like this that people don't like.

I think it did have a purpose in a couple of regards. 1) it reinforced what Ramsey is (I can agree that people could see that as redundant as we all know what he is) and 2) I imagine it serves, if not as the final straw on the back of the camel, at least a wake up call to Theon/Sansa that things aren't going to get any better and they should take things into their own hands....A cynic might even think that Sansa's a willing participant and she's playing a long con (in itself a bit weird as I'd assume that people would see her allowing herself to be raped to further herself in the game(if one can do that?) as the ultimate female empowerment moment)

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Not because I don't believe you. Because I want to laugh at them.

Mary Sue, wait!

Now that is ridiculous.

I didn't like it because I thought it was a gratuitous scene (unless something happens during/immediately after it next week, which seems unlikely since they never do that sort of cliffhanger). I thought it was bad TV, a dumb, unpleasant scene in a bad episode of a normally fantastic TV show.

But to drop the show because they "chose to use rape as a plot device?" That makes no sense. They've used rape and other horrible acts as plot devices many many times, as have countless other TV shows and other works of fiction.

it doesn't have to happen next week- is the timing important to you?- but I still believe that the scene will lead to further developments before the end of the season.

The timing is important for me because I don't think it changed the way the audience sees the characters or their relationships to one another at all. If Sansa and/or Theon plotted to murder Ramsay 2-3 episodes down the road it's not like we'd be confused about their motivation or conflicted as to how we feel about it. The other thing I thought about was maybe she gets pregnant, but everyone assumes a married couple would screw on their wedding night anyway- remember how they had to go out of their way to explain to us why Tyrion wasn't gonna consummate the marriage to Sansa.

The thing I disliked about it maybe more than it being gratuitous is that the scene the previous week at the dinner table was so well done. They'd just done this great, understated scene with those three characters that painted this great picture about their relationship and what was going on at Winterfell and then they followed up this week by taking the picture off the wall and clobbering you over the head with it.

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Honestly, I think a lot of the outrage you see on the internet is from people who misunderstood the outrage over the Jamie rape scene to mean that any depiction of rape on the show should be off limits.

Sansa and Ramsay got married. They're gonna bone. It would honestly be weirder if the show didn't address that, and left the viewers to guess how or even whether it happened.

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The thing I disliked about it maybe more than it being gratuitous is that the scene the previous week at the dinner table was so well done. They'd just done this great, understated scene with those three characters that painted this great picture about their relationship and what was going on at Winterfell and then they followed up this week by taking the picture off the wall and clobbering you over the head with it.

This is very fair. And I agree. The dinner scene was great.

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Karma

I agree with your take pretty much 100%. Question I was asking myself and wondering how you felt. Could they have shot the scene differently and more implied that she was raped and Theon was made to watch and been ok here with the outrage from many watchers? Maybe brought her into the room, made Theon enter as well and closed the door and just gotten some audio of a ripped dress and some tears from Sansa or something? I'm trying to figure out how they could have made the point in a softer way. I guess then the show wouldn't be GoT since that's what they are so good at.

I'll say this, it's nice to have someone to hate again as much as I hated Joffrey. Bolton was surely detestable but he was torturing a character that I wasn't too sympathetic about so it was a weird place to be.

Good question, and I think that they could have handled it differently, but as you and others have said - this is HBO and that is not what they do.

First, I don't think it had to be rape to begin with. They could have had another 'thing' happen that snaps Reek out of his funk. Sansa has more than enough ammo to hate the Boltons and take revenge, so this is basically still about Theon. I think Ramsey punishing Sansa for something Reek did and telling him that he is going to turn her into a female Reek would be just as twisted, snap Reek, and show us something different while staying in character for everybody.

If they are sitting around brainstorming and it just HAS to be rape that is done to her, I think yes - it could have been written different ways. Like you said, there could have been a cut after Reek enters, and we hear something going on. There could be a conversation the next morning - maybe Sansa yells at Reek for not stepping in, telling us that he was there. More ####ed up - maybe after Ramsey comes into the room we pan over and see Reek in a portable cage in the corner of the room or some ####.

I just think that rape in particular is a very hot button topic for people, so if you are going to depict in on screen you should be very careful about how you do it or make sure there is a purpose to showing it. This show doesn't seem to agree with that, and it has caused some backlash for them.

I understand this. I really do. I just still don't agree.

The main starting point for almost all of the hate for this scene is that "Sansa has suffered enough." So to me, that tells me that everyone was ok with what she has gone through previously. Psychological torture and some physical torture at the hands of Joffrey. Humiliation of the worst kind after that. Being used as a pawn by Littlefinger. All of that was ok somehow simpy because this now is worse. In fact, it was ok before hand because it was hoped that she would grow from it somehow. Now all of the sudden, what? She can't grow from this? A woman in a world where woman are raped and treated as less then second class citizens was raped in a situation that she herself had total control over and allowed to happen (within the context of the show, I'm not going down the line of real world rape. No woman deserves it for any reason ever so let's not go there).

So, what the people complaining about now are saying is that - we are ok with killing babies (live babies, not an abortion type thing) we are ok with people getting their throat cut; we kinda like the bad guy good guy bad guy thing from The Hound when he beat that poor dad for all his money because he had some good one liners during his time on screen; a really huge guy crushed a guys skull, women are tortured, raped, murdered and worse for simply being women; a pregnant mother has her baby eviscerated in her womb during a party, people are beheaded for ridiculous nonsense, children are poisoning other children and so on and so on and so on.....

.... but this is going too far? Really? What about Walter Frey's innocent daughter/wife whom Catherine killed just because she was standing there? Where is the outrage for her death? Everyone pretty much loves Jamie now for the most part but he threw a kid off a balcony. Panty wad people are getting all worked up about this particular horrible and by doing so are basically saying that everything else is ok, entertaining, understandable, part of the story, artistic license, used a plot to set up a better revenge type thing. There are websites out there posting now that they will no longer promote or follow the show because this is just too far.

It's ridiculous. It's a fricken TV show that has magic dwarfs, dragons, and ghost monsters who are birthed like babies and stone men that Marvel would be pround of. Give me a break. People love outrage because it gives them a sense of purpose. I can understand hating the scene for the changes it makes to the underlying story from the books. That I get. The book people hating it because they liked the book version of the story better - I get that. I think they are nuts for different reasons, but I get that. The real world outrage? Really? C'mon.

You make good points, and I know I am coming off as being so upset about this that I am not going to watch anymore, but that is not the case. I am just saying that I get why people are upset and I thing they good reason to be.

For me personally, Robb's wife getting stabbed in the stomach was worse. Maybe because it was shown, it was more of a surprise, I don't know. But with rape on campus and in general being a hot button topic and an extremely sensitive one, HBO doesn't seem to give to craps about how they handle it, or for what reason they do it.

I don't want to make it seem like I am out with a sign at HBO's studios or anything, I am just having a discussion on a message board. I have friends who have been raped, so maybe it is hitting home a bit and I get more upset than I should when people talk about even a fictional character being in that position or that it is just showing a "loss of innocence" or that it was just expected on the wedding night.

It is a fictional universe, BUT they are choosing how they are showing some real life situations that hit home for people in a very visceral way.

As they have in the entire series.

Sure, but I think after 5 seasons a lot of people are tiring of it if it doesn't have a purpose other than they can show it because they are HBO and that is what they do.

Like somebody else said, I am sure a certain bit of this equation is just about across the board people seem to be bored or disappointed with the season in general, so there aren't the normal highs of the show to hide scenes like this that people don't like.

I think it did have a purpose in a couple of regards. 1) it reinforced what Ramsey is (I can agree that people could see that as redundant as we all know what he is) and 2) I imagine it serves, if not as the final straw on the back of the camel, at least a wake up call to Theon/Sansa that things aren't going to get any better and they should take things into their own hands....A cynic might even think that Sansa's a willing participant and she's playing a long con (in itself a bit weird as I'd assume that people would see her allowing herself to be raped to further herself in the game(if one can do that?) as the ultimate female empowerment moment)

I am arguing, as are others that: 1. We know what Ramsey is, so we didn't need that. 2. they didn't need to use that specifically as a plot device yet again to achieve that end result.

I guess we will see - maybe the end result is to have Sansa knocked up, and this was their way to get there. There still is the choice to have a rape result in that, and not just normal uncomfortable married sex end in a pregnacy and Ramsey pushing Theon over the edge another way.

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Not because I don't believe you. Because I want to laugh at them.

Mary Sue, wait!

Now that is ridiculous.

I didn't like it because I thought it was a gratuitous scene (unless something happens during/immediately after it next week, which seems unlikely since they never do that sort of cliffhanger). I thought it was bad TV, a dumb, unpleasant scene in a bad episode of a normally fantastic TV show.

But to drop the show because they "chose to use rape as a plot device?" That makes no sense. They've used rape and other horrible acts as plot devices many many times, as have countless other TV shows and other works of fiction.

it doesn't have to happen next week- is the timing important to you?- but I still believe that the scene will lead to further developments before the end of the season.

The timing is important for me because I don't think it changed the way the audience sees the characters or their relationships to one another at all. If Sansa and/or Theon plotted to murder Ramsay 2-3 episodes down the road it's not like we'd be confused about their motivation or conflicted as to how we feel about it. The other thing I thought about was maybe she gets pregnant, but everyone assumes a married couple would screw on their wedding night anyway- remember how they had to go out of their way to explain to us why Tyrion wasn't gonna consummate the marriage to Sansa.

The thing I disliked about it maybe more than it being gratuitous is that the scene the previous week at the dinner table was so well done. They'd just done this great, understated scene with those three characters that painted this great picture about their relationship and what was going on at Winterfell and then they followed up this week by taking the picture off the wall and clobbering you over the head with it.

Very good posting.

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