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Game of Thrones, tv only, books don't exist, no backstory...NERDS already ruining a series that hasn't started (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter belljr
- Start date
Bob Sacamano
Footballguy
The seeds of doubt Sam, and to a certain extent Sansa, planted.
"Will she?"
Whether or not he wants the throne, he may want the answer to that question. Her reaction might dictate his response.
dhockster
Footballguy
Jon Snow is the Jack Ryan of Game of Thrones. He doesn't want to be in charge, but it everybody else f***s it up, he will do his duty and lead even if it the last thing he wants to do.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
The tension between Sansa and Dany is contrived? Huh? That scene fit their respective characters/interests perfectly.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
Dany only ever solves problems by killing whoever is in her way. Seriously, think about it. She can't do that to Sansa or the North now so she's struggling. There is no one else being oppressed to free here either, which is her other move. Now she's in the position of being the potential oppressor of free people who chose their own leaders. She's been put in a situation where she has to negotiate on even footing with someone like Sansa and she's way out of her depth.
the moops
Footballguy
It wasn't the first question, but they did ask him if dragon fire would stop the NK and he responded "I don't know". I took that answer as he has no idea how to defeat the NK
Ep 1 - 9
Ep 2 - 9.5
Two great episodes to start off the final season. I don't see a let down to one of the greatest tv shows of all time.
Zow
Footballguy
My predictions:
1. I'm with the most of you that a good chunk of secondary main characters die after what was essentially a farewell. Grey Worm, Brienne, Podrick, Tormund, Jorah, Theon, and Beric all seem like they will die as we've seen the entirety of their characters arcs. I also think Gilly dies saving Sam because way too big of a deal was made with her going to the crypt. I think Davos survives because he's a "survivor." I also think one of the dragons die. For reasons I'll get to later, though, I think only one main character dies. A darkhorse death is Bronne as I could see him coming in at a pivotal point in the battle to save either Tyrion or Jaime.
2. I don't think Jaime dies in the battle with the white walkers. This show is a lot about fate so the witch's prophecy for Cersei has to come true (where the "little brother" kills her) and the twist here is that Jaime -- who was born a few minutes after Cersie -- is the little brother who does it. I could see him dying, though, as he stabs her and he becomes both the king and queenslayer. Jon, Arya, and Gendry are big heros of this war and the big dragon takes down the ice dragon.
3. The humans will win the battle but we'll see massive casualties to Dany's army.
4. The Vegas odds scare me, but my best guess is that the Night King offs Theon and some weird magic thing happens where Bran and the NK off one another and both die. Accordingly, so will all the WWs. And then, at the end of the episode, we're left with a severely depleted army...
5. ... which still heads to King's Landing after re-loading a bit with the remaining Tullys, Dornish, Riverlands, etc. Yara takes out Euron somehow and somewhere (and they both die - effectively ending the Ironborn). A long, brutal battle with the Golden Company (which kills the remaining Unsullied and Dothraki) ends with the Hound killing the Mountain and Jaime (while probably dying in the act) killing Cersei. However, before that can happen Dany is badly hurt when Qyburn's dragon crossbow weapon mortally wounds her dragon.
The end result is that we are left with a surviving but decimated Westeros. True to form with the name of the show we'll see in the last episode factions/houses beginning to split. Melissandre comes back and tries to say Jon is the true king and Arya kills her for what she did to Gendry and this causes a rift between her and Jon. Arya + Gendry wed and start a house. Jon + Dany wed (the Targeryen incest way) and go back across the ocean to assemble an army since Dany is now dragon-less. Tyrion* + Sansa wed and restart the Lannisters. The show ends with three newish equally powerful houses with the obvious implication that they're going to battle for the iron throne and the Starks are permanently split amongst the houses and Sam writing the story in a book.
*Dark horse option for this faction would be Theon + Sansa instead of Tyrion and Tyrion retires to a vineyard in Dorne.
1. I'm with the most of you that a good chunk of secondary main characters die after what was essentially a farewell. Grey Worm, Brienne, Podrick, Tormund, Jorah, Theon, and Beric all seem like they will die as we've seen the entirety of their characters arcs. I also think Gilly dies saving Sam because way too big of a deal was made with her going to the crypt. I think Davos survives because he's a "survivor." I also think one of the dragons die. For reasons I'll get to later, though, I think only one main character dies. A darkhorse death is Bronne as I could see him coming in at a pivotal point in the battle to save either Tyrion or Jaime.
2. I don't think Jaime dies in the battle with the white walkers. This show is a lot about fate so the witch's prophecy for Cersei has to come true (where the "little brother" kills her) and the twist here is that Jaime -- who was born a few minutes after Cersie -- is the little brother who does it. I could see him dying, though, as he stabs her and he becomes both the king and queenslayer. Jon, Arya, and Gendry are big heros of this war and the big dragon takes down the ice dragon.
3. The humans will win the battle but we'll see massive casualties to Dany's army.
4. The Vegas odds scare me, but my best guess is that the Night King offs Theon and some weird magic thing happens where Bran and the NK off one another and both die. Accordingly, so will all the WWs. And then, at the end of the episode, we're left with a severely depleted army...
5. ... which still heads to King's Landing after re-loading a bit with the remaining Tullys, Dornish, Riverlands, etc. Yara takes out Euron somehow and somewhere (and they both die - effectively ending the Ironborn). A long, brutal battle with the Golden Company (which kills the remaining Unsullied and Dothraki) ends with the Hound killing the Mountain and Jaime (while probably dying in the act) killing Cersei. However, before that can happen Dany is badly hurt when Qyburn's dragon crossbow weapon mortally wounds her dragon.
The end result is that we are left with a surviving but decimated Westeros. True to form with the name of the show we'll see in the last episode factions/houses beginning to split. Melissandre comes back and tries to say Jon is the true king and Arya kills her for what she did to Gendry and this causes a rift between her and Jon. Arya + Gendry wed and start a house. Jon + Dany wed (the Targeryen incest way) and go back across the ocean to assemble an army since Dany is now dragon-less. Tyrion* + Sansa wed and restart the Lannisters. The show ends with three newish equally powerful houses with the obvious implication that they're going to battle for the iron throne and the Starks are permanently split amongst the houses and Sam writing the story in a book.
*Dark horse option for this faction would be Theon + Sansa instead of Tyrion and Tyrion retires to a vineyard in Dorne.
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sn0mm1s
Footballguy
It is contrived when there is an undead dragon + undead army + mythical monsters looking to destroy the realms of men - before dawn.
It is contrived when it was Jon's call - as King in the North. Period.
It is contrived when Stark ancestors already bent the knee to Targs with dragons.
It is contrived when the Starks need the Targs far more than the Targs need the Starks.
Really, it is like having a scene of people arguing about the contents of a will when the nuke is already launched and is about to drop on their heads and one of the people have a key to a underground bunker with supplies. You really think, it is wise to burn the bridge/antagonize the one person who could save you over the contents of a will?
Zow
Footballguy
He was always nice to her, I don't see her dying after all the #### she went through, and I'm at a bit of a loss as to who else to pair her with other than Theon (and I agree with the majority opinion that Theon dies guarding Bran).
ETA: Suppose the true point of my prediction is that the show will end with clear 2+ factions/new houses and the Stark children will be the common factor in each (with them now willing to fight each other for the throne).
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ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
I didn't make any argument about if I thought their behavior was wise. I said it was true to their characters and motivations. Which means it isn't contrived.
I think you don't have a deep enough understanding of the characters and story here if you think it's out of character for them to squabble over power among themselves while the undead descend. That's practically a perfect microcosm of the entire show's commentary on humanity.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
Any prediction for an ending that turns the Starks against each other for political power imo is foolish. That would go against everything we've seen happen. Never mind the fact that Arya has no interest in the great Game. Interesting read though.
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rail
Footballguy
You could be on to something. No NK nor ice dragon in final scene. Not in E3 preview. Is Winterfell a big feint and NK is really targeting Cersei/Gold Company, creating an undead gold army 20k strong while the North is being weakened?noticed NK wasn't there on the last scene of the episode. noticed NK nor the dead dragon was shown in any of the previews for next week. NK has a specific target, a lot was said in last night's episode that implied the target would be Bran. But is it though? I refuse to believe this is all of a sudden lazy writing for such an epic show.
Ohhh, NK you sneaky, dastardly devil you!
sn0mm1s
Footballguy
How is Sansa any different? Did she negotiate with Littlefinger or the Boltons - or just kill them? Was she able to work out something with the Tyrells or Lannisters - or just get used?
We can at least say Dany allied with the King in the North. Tywin/Tyrion worked the Frey/Tyrells. Robb got the Freys - and lost them because he was dumb. Jon got the free folk and Dany.
And, there are no "free" people in a kingdom - that is kind of the point. Dany is no more of an oppressor than Robert Baratheon was.
sn0mm1s
Footballguy
Please, trust me on this, I probably know more about this series than anyone on this board. You really trying to argue that last season's Sansa/Arya tension resolved magically with the execution of Littlefinger wasn't contrived? This Dany/Sansa tension is no different.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
That was different. That was essentially an editing/story-telling decision used on the viewer so that when Arya walked into that trial, it was supposed to be a twist that Littlefinger was actually going down. I do agree that even in the midst of the scenes where we were being told they were at odds, it felt a bit contrived. I wouldn't argue you on that, I didn't really like that storytelling decision and thought they could have come up with a better way to show Sansa using what she learned to outsmart Littlefinger, which was a huge character moment for her.
That's nothing like what's going on between Dany/Sansa right now, who are not related and have plenty of things to be at odds about considering the different motivations they have and factions they represent. There's nothing contrived about the disagreement they have, despite the WW beating the doors down. Again, that's the type of commentary on human nature this show is all about.
Nobody really believed Arya or Sansa would turn on and kill the other, which is what made it contrived, even if it had an entertaining ending.
I don't see anything out of character about what's going on between Dany and Sansa, and in fact thought it was one of the best scenes in the episode.
Captain Cranks
Footballguy
Much better episode than the first. I feel like we're being drawn in to the characters more emotionally just so that it hurts even more when they die. Brienne is the most obvious example.
My only complaint is Arya having the sects. She's still a little girl to me.
My only complaint is Arya having the sects. She's still a little girl to me.
the moops
Footballguy
McJose
Footballguy
McJose
Footballguy
the moops
Footballguy
I do not doubt that he knows a stupid amount about the show. I still choose to laugh at his statement though
sn0mm1s
Footballguy
No, if Sansa was as clever or as smart as Arya claimed, there wouldn't be this tension. Even if Sansa is planning on going to war with Dany if they all make it out alive - there is *no* reason to make Dany think that. None. There is *no* reason to be antagonistic toward Dany or make Dany suspicious of her motives. I mean, we are led to believe that Sansa can hide her intentions from Littlefinger (who is probably the cleverest player in both the books and show), but can't swallow her pride, lust for power, autonomy, [insert whatever motivation you want here], when the savior of The North - and possibly the world - rides in on two freaking dragons and the largest, most skilled armies on the planet? She can't even fool people like Cersei just did?
The options are either:
A) Sansa is still pretty naive regarding the ways of the world and can't control her emotions.
OR
B) The tension is contrived.
Based on what we have been being fed for several seasons the answer has to be B.
sn0mm1s
Footballguy
Heh... Yoda. Unfortunately, the concept of Grand Maesters was only rolling around in GRRM's head at that time.
Probably would've tried to work in these in some way though:
When I'm king in my own right, I'm going to outlaw beets.
If I could pray with my ####, I'd be much more religious.
Writin'!? What good is writin'?
Most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it.
Laughter is poison to fear.
There is no creature on earth half so terrifying as a truly just man.
When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say.
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Mile High
Footballguy
Along those lines what was the need for Jon to tell Dani when he did. They knew the dead where going to be there by morning. Seems like he could waited until after the battle.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
I just think you're looking at this entirely wrong. But we each have the right to our own opinions about it.
I don't think it's about going to war with Dany and her massive army at all. That obviously isn't a winning strategy. It's about playing her well enough now, while they need each other and CAN'T fight, that she secures the North's freedom. Using Jon's relationship with her to work towards that goal is just icing on the cake. But she's laying the foundation for a bigger conversation later.
Sansa slow-played it. She knew what was going on with Jon and Dany. She was cold enough and assertive enough towards Dany that when the Mother of Dragons finally approached her, it wasn't from a position of power, like she's used to--it was in an almost intimate way, to make things right for Jon, from Dany's point of view. Sansa bonded with her to a point, let it go well enough, and then dropped the bomb she has wanted to since Dany got to Winterfell--what's the plan for the North? The North isn't going to kneel like everyone else, start to come to terms with it. Do you really want to test where Jon's allegiance's lie? Lord Royce's deference to Sansa over Dany, and then Theon's obvious loyalty to Sansa over Dany, just further hammered home that things were more complicated than simply taking the Iron Throne.
It's not a threat, she wasn't warning her that if they all survived, the North would go to war. It wasn't a strategic blunder. It was a chess move imo.
And yes, all of that went down with White Walkers breathing down their necks. That's not out of character, dumb, or contrived imo. It's what this show has always been all about.
sn0mm1s
Footballguy
Exactly. So now Dany thinks/knows Sansa doesn't want her as her queen and Jon - someone close to Sansa - has a better birthright claim. Why would this be good to let Dany know? It makes no sense.
culdeus
Footballguy
Really aren't we looking at only two possible outcomes here?
- NK dead at end of Ep3. This army turns and marches to KL. Gets a little awkward if Jon/Dany both survive NK battle.
- NK alive at end of Ep3. Certain surviving characters flee, regroup further south. Assumption is Bran would be among these, but remainder is TBD.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
It's Jon's dumb Ned Stark honesty rearing it's head. Dany found him thinking things over in front of Lyanna's crypt. He wasn't going to lie. And she's the person who probably deserves to know most.
Why did the writers write it going down that way? For dramatic tension, obviously. But you can explain it in character too.
Thunderlips
Footballguy
They aren't going to spend any time with any REAL drama between Dany and Jon. One of them has to go.....probably this episode. I think the idea of Jon being told that he's the rightful King and NOT immediately disavowing it/ignoring it only works if that is used as meand to get Jon to head South, upon Dany dying, after this battle.
Bob Sacamano
Footballguy
I lean the opposite. You've built this conflict between them. It only pays off if they both survive this battle, unless you find a way to make it rear its head during the battle. I'm not sure how that happens. So I think they both make it through the war against the dead, but I still think at least one of them dies before it's over.
Bob Sacamano
Footballguy
belljr
Footballguy
Scoresman
Footballguy
Bran kills the Night King with a Breaking Bad style wheelchair bomb made of wildfire. The Night King dies, cut to Emilia Clarke giving an apology for her acting, cut to acting troupe fake Sansa stripping on stage with Bronn, Jamie, Tyrion, and Davos musing below for 40 minutes.
<end of Game of Thrones>
sn0mm1s
Footballguy
Unless you can convince Dany that she should be queen of a number of kingdoms less than seven - it makes no sense. Sansa doesn't have *any* bargaining power other than stubbornness and *perhaps* Dany's feelings for Jon. I suppose you could argue that a younger Dany would give up those dreams for a man (as she kind of did with Drogo until the poisoning attempt) but this Dany? No way. She was more than willing to cut Daario loose for political gain.
Also, no one else is just kneeling to Dany. Who did? Not the south - she burned them. Not Essos - she conquered them too. Dany doesn't have a problem with conquering those that won't kneel (and it isn't like this is uncommon in this world). Sansa has one out - Jon. *Maybe* that works if Rhaegal's loyalty lies with Jon, *and* Drogon dies, *and* Jon goes back on his word to Dany (not likely), *and* Jon's King in the North title is trumped by the title Lady of Winterfell (it shouldn't). Sansa stating The North won't kneel is effectively being a traitor to one or both of Jon/Dany depending on how you want to rate their titles.
However, if you want to bet on some runner, runner scenario, it still makes zero sense to antagonize Dany. Sansa is not in any position of power now but *might* be depending on how the battle plays out.
sn0mm1s
Footballguy
rail
Footballguy
NK kills off Cersei, maybe King's Landing entirely. Heads North with his newly converted golden army of undead in a classic pincer move.
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
True. I don't think culd's answer revealed much of anything anyway. It was his opinion. IMO, there will almost certainly be another fairly large battle after Winterfell. But that doesn't mean it has to be a huge 45-minute tracking shot production that took them months to film. They've done other battles with less in the past and they came out just fine, IMO.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
I see a lot of where you're coming from, even if I disagree with the way you see it.
The bolded part is what I find interesting...Jon HAS no King in the North title that makes him more powerful than Sansa, they gave it to him and he threw it away (even if we know he had to, to survive the WW). Sansa is the true Stark that the North Remembered for, and the North is generally pissed that Jon GAVE UP his King in the North title for a foreign queen. If anything, Sansa has more pull in the North than Jon now. Lyanna Mormont even called Jon out in front of everyone for giving up his title. Someone called him "my grace" and she stood up and said "but you aren't, are you? You aren't anything now". He gave that up, and lost a lot of the North's respect imo, no matter how necessary it was. Add to that, that Sansa also has the Vale behind her (and possibly the Greyjoys due to Theon, but I don't think that matters at all)...she's the real power in the North, not Jon, if you set aside the army that is about to be 90% demolished fighting the dead. In terms of political capital in the North, Sansa is #1. In terms of titles, her Lady of Winterfell is the highest ranking one left, for anyone who doesn't want to follow Dany.
All of that pales in comparison to the might Dany can bring to bear (for now), which is why she is playing chess imo, like I explained. But we see it differently, that's cool.
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matuski
Footballguy
Thunderlips
Footballguy
Jon's always been the reluctant leader....not a person even remotely interested in grabbing power. Power has always been thrust on him. To that, him finding out his lineage was one more "power thrust upon him" moment. Granted, he just told her aout itlast episode and then was immediately interrrupted...so I guess they could open this episode with him abdicating his claim/......but I kind of thought when Sam told him in the prior episode; a more true to form Jon would have told Sam rght away to keep it on the down low because he has no interest in jumping over Dany.
I can see her sacrificing herself to kill the NK (kind of goes with Sams comment about whether she would give it up for him), a distraught Jon fulfilling his destiny by smoking Cersei and then giving up the Iron Throne to Tyrion......or something to that affect.
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