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Game of Thrones, tv only, books don't exist, no backstory...NERDS already ruining a series that hasn't started (8 Viewers)

culdeus said:
A lot of people want marvel movie type episodes, with beginning/middle/end defined. 

I think these episodes are what has defined TV as the leading video medium for the last decade+.  You have the benefit of time, to tell the story and use the characters.  

Could you have cut 40 minutes of dialogue out of this episode?  Yes. Clearly.  It's how Marvel does it.  8 minutes of witty banter and 120 minutes of loud noises.  

Whether the dialogue has suffered, yeah probably.  Mainly because I'm not totally sure the writers knew how it was going to end.  I lay that at the feet of Martin.  

The Wire I think succeeded because they found out they had a hit, and took a break in Season 2 to figure out the way to best tell the story while keeping the characters moving.  GoT has had a lot of those episodes mixed in and isn't the worse for it, but they took a knee for Martin to finish at several points and he didn't.  So here we are.  
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Yup.

The hype of it "ending" is also making people want to see the big blowup. It's almost like we forgot what got us to the ending in the first place - 80% talking, maneuvering, and chess-playing; 15% really memorable stuff (Tyrion trials, quotes, smaller but memorable fights), and 5% epic action pieces.     

 
F me.  Just realized I fly out of the country on the same day as the series finale.  I'll have to wait a whole week and hope for no spoilers.

 
TobiasFunke said:
They can't jump from location to location and and story line from story line any more for obvious reasons, but otherwise Season 8 Episode 2 was a perfect distillation what makes GoT great.  The payoffs from many hours of nuanced character development was excellent.

I get the feeling that a lot of people miss that expansive scope and think that's what made the show great.  Which is fine!  Lots of people prefer the NFL regular season to the Super Bowl for similar reasons. But that seems like an expression of personal preference rather than a legitimate criticism of the show.
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I have liked some of the rare episodes that are self-contained into 1 location. Last season wasn't as good either. The storylines and especially the dialogue just isn't as sharp. Many things are heavy-handed.The showrunners and writers just aren't as good as George Martin.  

 
jwb said:
Yup.

The hype of it "ending" is also making people want to see the big blowup. It's almost like we forgot what got us to the ending in the first place - 80% talking, maneuvering, and chess-playing; 15% really memorable stuff (Tyrion trials, quotes, smaller but memorable fights), and 5% epic action pieces.     
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All you say is true. I think the complaints now (at least from my perspective) is that they're not writing/executing that stuff as well as they were in the first 5 seasons or so. The writing just isn't the same quality. I was rewatching this week's episode during timeouts/breaks in the Jazz/Rockets game, and in like half the scenes (even really short ones) one character or another is saying "we're all going to die" or "I'll probably die" or something like that. Once or twice is enough, we get it, they're in a bad spot - eventually it became silly. And it was made more annoying because not once was there a logical follow on of "if I die, do <insert thing to make sure they don't join the army of the dead here>." I have no idea what that would be, but you'd think it'd be a consideration at least.

I have no problem with bottle episodes, particularly with characters as good as these have been. But your writing has to be particularly on point to pull something like that off, especially over 2 hours. I don't think they quite got it. There was a lot of run of the mill, predictable dialog, and I agree with the poster above that some of the scenes seemed forced.

 
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Ilov80s said:
I have liked some of the rare episodes that are self-contained into 1 location. Last season wasn't as good either. The storylines and especially the dialogue just isn't as sharp. Many things are heavy-handed.The showrunners and writers just aren't as good as George Martin.  
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IMO last season suffered because it was rushed. That was really the only issue, and a lot of other stuff flowed from that. That hasn't been a problem this season so far.  The dialogue and pacing of the last episode in particular were great.

And I think people are remembering previous seasons with rose-colored glasses. There's always been clunky, heavy-handed dialogue if you wanted to look for it, along with other problems. My wife is doing a rewatch so I'm catching bits and pieces, and let's just say nobody's ever gonna wonder if the Coen Brothers wrote a GoT episode. Seems like maybe people are just being more critical of it now because they want to find flaws in the Martin-less episodes.

 
how likely are we to see any of these before the season ends?

  • Dorne
  • Melisandre
  • Nymeria & her pack
  • Yara & the Iron Islands
  • Jaqen Hgar
  • the Vale
  • Howland Reed
  • Syrio Forel (heh, just kidding...that dude's dead)
 
Gr00vus said:
All you say is true. I think the complaints now (at least from my perspective) is that they're not writing/executing that stuff as well as they were in the first 5 seasons or so. The writing just isn't the same quality. I was rewatching this week's episode during timeouts/breaks in the Jazz/Rockets game, and in like half the scenes (even really short ones) one character or another is saying "we're all going to die" or "I'll probably die" or something like that. Once or twice is enough, we get it, they're in a bad spot - eventually it became silly. And it was made more annoying because not once was there a logical follow on of "if I die, do <insert thing to make sure they don't join the army of the dead here>." I have no idea what that would be, but you'd think it'd be a consideration at least.

I have no problem with bottle episodes, particularly with characters as good as these have been. But your writing has to be particularly on point to pull something like that off, especially over 2 hours. I don't think they quite got it. There was a lot of run of the mill, predictable dialog, and I agree with the poster above that some of the scenes seemed forced.
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What? I could've sworn there was a quote of something along the lines "the last one of us standing burn the others".

 
Gr00vus said:
 and in like half the scenes (even really short ones) one character or another is saying "we're all going to die" or "I'll probably die" or something like that. Once or twice is enough, we get it, they're in a bad spot - eventually it became silly. And it was made more annoying because not once was there a logical follow on of "if I die, do <insert thing to make sure they don't join the army of the dead here>." I have no idea what that would be, but you'd think it'd be a consideration at least.

I have no problem with bottle episodes, particularly with characters as good as these have been. But your writing has to be particularly on point to pull something like that off, especially over 2 hours. I don't think they quite got it. There was a lot of run of the mill, predictable dialog, and I agree with the poster above that some of the scenes seemed forced.
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I do agree with this - a little heavy handed, and a little too much "let's make sure everyone 'gets' it". Like "the crypts are totally safe" being repeated like 10x (probably not that many, but it felt like it), and yes, the "we're dying" got old too. 

 
Maik Jeaunz said:
how likely are we to see any of these before the season ends?

  • Dorne Nope
  • Melisandre 90% chance
  • Nymeria & her pack 5% (I think her last appearance with Arya was meant to be the last we saw)
  • Yara & the Iron Islands 90%
  • Jaqen Hgar 20%
  • the Vale 5%
  • Howland Reed 50%
  • Syrio Forel (heh, just kidding...that dude's dead) 
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jwb said:
I do agree with this - a little heavy handed, and a little too much "let's make sure everyone 'gets' it". Like "the crypts are totally safe" being repeated like 10x (probably not that many, but it felt like it), and yes, the "we're dying" got old too. 
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As compared to previous seasons, where they showed such a delicate hand in only occasionally referencing Jon being a *******, or demonstrated such restraint in delving into Ramsey Bolton's sadistic cruelty, or just gently hinted from time to time that Littlefinger might be up to something more than he's letting on?

 
Why is the Night King marching straight towards Winterfell instead of going around it, facing the totally unprepared Golden Company army, then hitting up KL, bolstering their numbers even further, and THEN going to Winterfell to mop up whoever hasn't died of starvation by that point?  The Night King's hand must be worse than Tyrion.  

 
culdeus said:
A lot of people want marvel movie type episodes, with beginning/middle/end defined. 

I think these episodes are what has defined TV as the leading video medium for the last decade+.  You have the benefit of time, to tell the story and use the characters.  

Could you have cut 40 minutes of dialogue out of this episode?  Yes. Clearly.  It's how Marvel does it.  8 minutes of witty banter and 120 minutes of loud noises.  

Whether the dialogue has suffered, yeah probably.  Mainly because I'm not totally sure the writers knew how it was going to end.  I lay that at the feet of Martin.  

The Wire I think succeeded because they found out they had a hit, and took a break in Season 2 to figure out the way to best tell the story while keeping the characters moving.  GoT has had a lot of those episodes mixed in and isn't the worse for it, but they took a knee for Martin to finish at several points and he didn't.  So here we are.  
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i wonder if martin and hbo and any kind of agreement/understanding when this first started that martin would have finished the last book by now

 
Scoresman said:
Why is the Night King marching straight towards Winterfell instead of going around it, facing the totally unprepared Golden Company army, then hitting up KL, bolstering their numbers even further, and THEN going to Winterfell to mop up whoever hasn't died of starvation by that point?  The Night King's hand must be worse than Tyrion.  
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Hes after bran.......

 
Scoresman said:
Why is the Night King marching straight towards Winterfell instead of going around it, facing the totally unprepared Golden Company army, then hitting up KL, bolstering their numbers even further, and THEN going to Winterfell to mop up whoever hasn't died of starvation by that point?  The Night King's hand must be worse than Tyrion.  
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There’s not really any reason from his perspective to feel threatened by the human army at Winterfell. 

 
Also, no mention of employing some wild fire? You'd think it would have occurred to Tyrion or Davos at least. Or are the writers "saving" that for the end - they lure all the dead into King's Landing and then blow it up with all the wild fire the Mad King hid under the city.

 
Gr00vus said:
Also, no mention of employing some wild fire? You'd think it would have occurred to Tyrion or Davos at least. Or are the writers "saving" that for the end - they lure all the dead into King's Landing and then blow it up with all the wild fire the Mad King hid under the city.
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I don't think there is anyone in Winterfell capable of making it.

 
Maik Jeaunz said:
how likely are we to see any of these before the season ends?

  • Dorne - unlikely as the sand snakes are dead and Dorne is super far south (I could see Dorne being mentioned briefly in the final, wrap up episode or something I guess)
  • Melisandre - very likely (or that's just terrible writing if she doesn't since they made a big deal about her dying in Westeros)
  • Nymeria & her pack - I think more likely than not that she'll appear and do some damage to the WWs then be killed
  • Yara & the Iron Islands - I think it's more likely than not we see her battle Euron and play a minor role in helping defeat Cersie
  • Jaqen Hgar - not likely as he was mainly a plot point for Arya and she's in a good spot
  • the Vale - Unlikely unless somehow everybody retreats there as it'd be a good place to fight the NK
  • Howland Reed - Unsure but he really could be a pivotal character since he has firsthand knowledge on Jon's birth
  • Syrio Forel (heh, just kidding...that dude's dead) - Zero chance
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Answers in the quote. 

I'd also thrown in: 

Darrhio and the Second Sons -  think less likely than likely but could see a reason to bring him back)

Illyrio (sp?) - my understanding is he was a big deal in the books and he was the guy to jumpstart Dany but I doubt we see him

The Iron Bank guys - meh, probably not likely

Hot Pie - they gotta eat, right?

 
TobiasFunke said:
As compared to previous seasons, where they showed such a delicate hand in only occasionally referencing Jon being a *******, or demonstrated such restraint in delving into Ramsey Bolton's sadistic cruelty, or just gently hinted from time to time that Littlefinger might be up to something more than he's letting on?
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:lmao:

 
TobiasFunke said:
IMO last season suffered because it was rushed. That was really the only issue, and a lot of other stuff flowed from that. That hasn't been a problem this season so far.  The dialogue and pacing of the last episode in particular were great.

And I think people are remembering previous seasons with rose-colored glasses. There's always been clunky, heavy-handed dialogue if you wanted to look for it, along with other problems. My wife is doing a rewatch so I'm catching bits and pieces, and let's just say nobody's ever gonna wonder if the Coen Brothers wrote a GoT episode. Seems like maybe people are just being more critical of it now because they want to find flaws in the Martin-less episodes.
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Spot on. I'd like to allocated my daily allowance of likes to this post.

 
cap'n grunge said:
Everyone assumes the crypts are going to come alive, but have we seen the WW raise any except the newly dead before?
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Everyone also seems to be assuming that the crypts are going to come alive against Winterfell, when maybe Winterfell (Bran or Red Woman or Samwell....or hell even Tyrion since he chatted up Bran) makes the crypts come alive to save the people down there.  Zombie Ned saving the day would be fantastic, imo.

 
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Bobcat10 said:
Everyone also seems to be assuming that the crypts are going to come alive against Winterfell, when maybe Winterfell (Bran or Red Woman or Samwell....or hell even Tyrion since he chatted up Bran) makes the crypts come alive to save the people down there.  Zombie Ned saving the day would be fantastic, imo.
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Be hard to do without his head

 
Bobcat10 said:
Everyone also seems to be assuming that the crypts are going to come alive against Winterfell, when maybe Winterfell (Bran or Red Woman or Samwell....or hell even Tyrion since he chatted up Bran) makes the crypts come alive to save the people down there.
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But the crypts are super safe so I doubt anything of significance happens down there...

 
Zow said:
Answers in the quote. 

I'd also thrown in: 

Darrhio and the Second Sons -  think less likely than likely but could see a reason to bring him back)

Illyrio (sp?) - my understanding is he was a big deal in the books and he was the guy to jumpstart Dany but I doubt we see him

The Iron Bank guys - meh, probably not likely

Hot Pie - they gotta eat, right?
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Zero percent...they combined varys n illryio after season 1

 
Zow said:
Answers in the quote. 

I'd also thrown in: 

Darrhio and the Second Sons -  think less likely than likely but could see a reason to bring him back)

Illyrio (sp?) - my understanding is he was a big deal in the books and he was the guy to jumpstart Dany but I doubt we see him

The Iron Bank guys - meh, probably not likely

Hot Pie - they gotta eat, right?
Click to expand...


Are those blue-lipped Warlock dudes still around or did Dany kill them all?

 
Zow said:
My predictions: 

1. I'm with the most of you that a good chunk of secondary main characters die after what was essentially a farewell. Grey Worm, Brienne, Podrick, Tormund, Jorah, Theon, and Beric all seem like they will die as we've seen the entirety of their characters arcs. I also think Gilly dies saving Sam because way too big of a deal was made with her going to the crypt. I think Davos survives because he's a "survivor." I also think one of the dragons die. For reasons I'll get to later, though,  I think only one main character dies.  A darkhorse death is Bronne as I could see him coming in at a pivotal point in the battle to save either Tyrion or Jaime. 

2. I don't think Jaime dies in the battle with the white walkers.  This show is a lot about fate so the witch's prophecy for Cersei has to come true (where the "little brother" kills her) and the twist here is that Jaime -- who was born a few minutes after Cersie -- is the little brother who does it. I could see him dying, though, as he stabs her and he becomes both the king and queenslayer.  Jon, Arya, and Gendry are big heros of this war and the big dragon takes down the ice dragon. 

3. The humans will win the battle but we'll see massive casualties to Dany's army. 

4. The Vegas odds scare me, but my best guess is that the Night King offs Theon and some weird magic thing happens where Bran and the NK off one another and both die.  Accordingly, so will all the WWs. And then, at the end of the episode, we're left with a severely depleted army...

5. ... which still heads to King's Landing after re-loading a bit with the remaining Tullys, Dornish, Riverlands, etc. Yara takes out Euron somehow and somewhere (and they both die - effectively ending the Ironborn).  A long, brutal battle with the Golden Company (which kills the remaining Unsullied and Dothraki) ends with the Hound killing the Mountain and Jaime (while probably dying in the act) killing Cersei.  However, before that can happen Dany is badly hurt when Qyburn's dragon crossbow weapon mortally wounds her dragon.  

The end result is that we are left with a surviving but decimated Westeros. True to form with the name of the show we'll see in the last episode factions/houses beginning to split. Melissandre comes back and tries to say Jon is the true king and Arya kills her for what she did to Gendry and this causes a rift between her and Jon. Arya + Gendry wed and start a house.  Jon + Dany wed (the Targeryen incest way) and go back across the ocean to assemble an army since Dany is now dragon-less. Tyrion* + Sansa wed and restart the Lannisters.  The show ends with three newish equally powerful houses with the obvious implication that they're going to battle for the iron throne and the Starks are permanently split amongst the houses and Sam writing the story in a book.  

*Dark horse option for this faction would be Theon + Sansa instead of Tyrion and Tyrion retires to a vineyard in Dorne. 
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I could see this happening and honestly it would be pretty disappointing.  The White Walkers HAVE to win this battle, right?

To have 8 years of teasing about this magical unstoppable force that is only being held back from conquering the whole world by a magical wall that everyone assumes is basically futile to fight against be stopped by just losing a straight up battle against a half-###ed 11th hour plan based totally on conjecture that they didn't even bother to flesh out would be pretty much the worst payoff in TV/movie villain history, right?

Personally I think they kill the NK as planned, start to think everything is great, and then realize whoops that silly trope about all the bad guys dying when the main bad guy dies didn't actually work, and the rest of the WW army decimates the human army and forces a battered retreat. 

 
FreeBaGeL said:
I could see this happening and honestly it would be pretty disappointing.  The White Walkers HAVE to win this battle, right?

To have 8 years of teasing about this magical unstoppable force that is only being held back from conquering the whole world by a magical wall that everyone assumes is basically futile to fight against be stopped by just losing a straight up battle against a half-###ed 11th hour plan based totally on conjecture that they didn't even bother to flesh out would be pretty much the worst payoff in TV/movie villain history, right?

Personally I think they kill the NK as planned, start to think everything is great, and then realize whoops that silly trope about all the bad guys dying when the main bad guy dies didn't actually work, and the rest of the WW army decimates the human army and forces a battered retreat. 
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Would the reanimated corpses cease to be animated if nk is dead? Sure....however the others or ww....they might keep fighting.....

The whole craster baby thing is really nuts....the nk could clearly make a deal with somone.......

 
It's hard to predict how the Battle of Winterfell will play out, but I do know one thing.  Airpower is the decisive factor in any military action; without air superiority, boots on the ground don't have much of a chance.  So, can the two living dragons remain so and how does the alliance eliminate the dead dragon??

 
ConnSKINS26 said:
The Three-Eyed Raven as mankind's communal memory thing is weird because it currently has no function in society and basically no one knows about it. Would the Three-Eyed Raven come forth and save civilization if the Citadel burned down or something and all progress was lost? Who knows. 
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:)  

After Sam's little speech about Bran's importance as mankind's memory, all I could think was that they could have chosen a better communicator for the job.

 
Bobcat10 said:
Just to be clear, I mean in the crypts.  Not above ground.  fwiw
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Gotcha. I just think even on a show with dragons, zombies, and shadow demon magic...that would be a jump the shark moment imo. Can't see how they'd pull it off

 
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