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Game of Thrones, tv only, books don't exist, no backstory


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1 hour ago, Sinn Fein said:

So, what exactly is the point of this show going to be?  We know what the history holds for this world.  This sort of feels like it could be a redemption arc for Daenerys and the prior show-runners - where we learn that all the Targaryens were capable of madness.... so it wasn't really her fault...

I don't care what Targaryen backstory they tell, it cannot possibly redeem what they did to Danny.

I still haven't watched a single minute of Thrones since that last season.  And I probably rewatched it more than any other drama (other than the Wire, possibly).  I just can't.  they butchered it.  it would be one thing, if like the wire, you could go back and rewatch to see how this crazy narrative arc was hiding in the shadows and you just missed it.  But there is no such thing for Danny.  Going back to watch her scenes would only be more infuriating.

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40 minutes ago, zoonation said:

I don't care what Targaryen backstory they tell, it cannot possibly redeem what they did to Danny.

I still haven't watched a single minute of Thrones since that last season.  And I probably rewatched it more than any other drama (other than the Wire, possibly).  I just can't.  they butchered it.  it would be one thing, if like the wire, you could go back and rewatch to see how this crazy narrative arc was hiding in the shadows and you just missed it.  But there is no such thing for Danny.  Going back to watch her scenes would only be more infuriating.

 

I think they did telegraph Daenerys' future going all the way back to season 1 - when she burned the woman for cursing Drogo, or when she nonchalant;y watched her brother get melted, or when she first uttered the word: "Dracarys" in the House fo the Undying.  Or when she killed the Khals, or when she killed teh slave trader that sold her the unsullied, or the guy from Mereen sent to negotiate, or the Tarleys, or Varys, etc.

 

Whenever Daenerys did not get her way, or felt disrespected, she burned #### down.  We, as an audience, tended to overlook it, because we were rooting for her to win.

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1 hour ago, Sinn Fein said:

 

I think they did telegraph Daenerys' future going all the way back to season 1 - when she burned the woman for cursing Drogo, or when she nonchalant;y watched her brother get melted, or when she first uttered the word: "Dracarys" in the House fo the Undying.  Or when she killed the Khals, or when she killed teh slave trader that sold her the unsullied, or the guy from Mereen sent to negotiate, or the Tarleys, or Varys, etc.

 

Whenever Daenerys did not get her way, or felt disrespected, she burned #### down.  We, as an audience, tended to overlook it, because we were rooting for her to win.

I honestly don't remember 100% the last couple seasons, so admit I could be pulling a little out of my ### but I think those examples are mostly people who wronged her, not a whole city.  Also I think people were expecting a bit of a gradual ramp up to that person, not what we got.  

Again, I fully admit my bias and I didn't love what I was seeing out of the show, so I was prone to more grumbly nitpicking.  if I liked it more, I would have looked past more stuff.  

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5 hours ago, Sinn Fein said:

So, what exactly is the point of this show going to be?  We know what the history holds for this world.  This sort of feels like it could be a redemption arc for Daenerys and the prior show-runners - where we learn that all the Targaryens were capable of madness.... so it wasn't really her fault...

I’m hoping for boobs

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4 hours ago, Sinn Fein said:

 

I think they did telegraph Daenerys' future going all the way back to season 1 - when she burned the woman for cursing Drogo, or when she nonchalant;y watched her brother get melted, or when she first uttered the word: "Dracarys" in the House fo the Undying.  Or when she killed the Khals, or when she killed teh slave trader that sold her the unsullied, or the guy from Mereen sent to negotiate, or the Tarleys, or Varys, etc.

 

Whenever Daenerys did not get her way, or felt disrespected, she burned #### down.  We, as an audience, tended to overlook it, because we were rooting for her to win.

Nah.  It’s a quantum leap from those examples mostly of her, rightly or wrongly, torching people that she felt were evil or, I’ll even grant, standing in her way, to genocide.  Especially given her growth as the show progressed.  The torching of innocents, including children, was never remotely close to earned.  

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11 minutes ago, zoonation said:

Nah.  It’s a quantum leap from those examples mostly of her, rightly or wrongly, torching people that she felt were evil or, I’ll even grant, standing in her way, to genocide.  Especially given her growth as the show progressed.  The torching of innocents, including children, was never remotely close to earned.  

Especially torching non-combatants and completely ignoring the very obvious red keep where Cersei actually was. The problem was that if she doesn’t go full moron then Tyrion doesn’t find his brother and sister (dude’s a hell of a bloodhound) and decide she’s got to die. That’s The Walking Dead level story telling not GOT early years.

Personally, I’m just glad she ordered that second set of Dothrakis and Unsullied. Just imagine the embarrassment of showing up at King’s Landing with no army.

I’ll still watch every second of this new show but I’m definitely not setting my expectations high so hopefully they blow them away. I’m not even worried about the knowledge of what will happen because I loved Rogue One even knowing the end.

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21 minutes ago, zoonation said:

Agree.  The real massacre was the writing. So bad.  Which was a shame, because the artistic team did their best work when they finally had a budget.  But you can never outrun bad writing or storytelling.   


No doubt the writing in later seasons was terrible, but Danarys becoming the Mad Queen was telegraphed from the beginning.  She had an actual vision of herself in a burned out Kings Landing throne room with ashes floating through the air in season 2. By the time she arrived in Westeros, she was a ruthless tyrant. 

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5 hours ago, Sinn Fein said:

 

I think they did telegraph Daenerys' future going all the way back to season 1 - when she burned the woman for cursing Drogo, or when she nonchalant;y watched her brother get melted, or when she first uttered the word: "Dracarys" in the House fo the Undying.  Or when she killed the Khals, or when she killed teh slave trader that sold her the unsullied, or the guy from Mereen sent to negotiate, or the Tarleys, or Varys, etc.

 

Whenever Daenerys did not get her way, or felt disrespected, she burned #### down.  We, as an audience, tended to overlook it, because we were rooting for her to win.


True. However, she had already won. There was no believable reason for Dany to torch the city and regular people. At all. Made zero sense within the story they told. Paranoid, angry, crazy etc., it still didn’t work the way they did it. 

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13 minutes ago, CletiusMaximus said:


No doubt the writing in later seasons was terrible, but Danarys becoming the Mad Queen was telegraphed from the beginning.  She had an actual vision of herself in a burned out Kings Landing throne room with ashes floating through the air in season 2. By the time she arrived in Westeros, she was a ruthless tyrant. 

Sure.  If you’re into ridiculously lazy writing.  Frodo had several similar visions on the way to Modor.  Still doesn’t pay the till.  

And, to address the Westeros point, she really wasn’t.  She had moral justification for everything she did.  Which was consistent with her growth up until that point.  “Ruthless tyrant”, respectfully, is a gross overstatement of what she was leaving across the sea.  

The show tried to save the sloppy narrative they were about to inflict on us when she got there, but it was so obvious as to be insulting while we watched it.  

It was irredeemably bad writing and plot narrative. The worst part was how lazy it was.  And I say that as someone who adored the franchise. 

Edited by zoonation
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11 hours ago, Capella said:

Kind of odd, to me, that folks could have thoroughly enjoyed the show for 6 years or whatever and be so totally repulsed by it now because of how it ended. It wasn’t a great ending, probably was bad, but didn’t ruin the rest of the show for me and certainly won’t stop me from watching another series.  


Agreed. The ending wasn't great, but it wasn't terrible like some think it was, but you know how it is once a little negativity catches on with folks on the internet.  People love a bandwagon. I work with a guy who thought it was all okay and then months after the finale decided that it was the worst thing ever, and it was obvious that reading all of the negativity got in his head. 

7 hours ago, Sinn Fein said:

 

I think they did telegraph Daenerys' future going all the way back to season 1 - when she burned the woman for cursing Drogo, or when she nonchalant;y watched her brother get melted, or when she first uttered the word: "Dracarys" in the House fo the Undying.  Or when she killed the Khals, or when she killed teh slave trader that sold her the unsullied, or the guy from Mereen sent to negotiate, or the Tarleys, or Varys, etc.

 

Whenever Daenerys did not get her way, or felt disrespected, she burned #### down.  We, as an audience, tended to overlook it, because we were rooting for her to win.


Exactly. I was like, were people not paying attention? Danny always had that "My dragons will burn anyone who gets in my way" mentality, and once her two closest friends (Jorah and Missandei) were dead and she had lost all faith in the one other person who could check her worst impulses (Tyrion), there was no one left to get in her ear, and it was scorched earth time. 

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I guess we all have different expectations and tolerances for writing quality?   Fair enough.  

But it is hardly a secret that when B&B were left to their own devices to write an ending to this story, they clearly weren’t up to the task and, so far as I know, have yet to be heard from since. 

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11 hours ago, zoonation said:

Sure.  If you’re into ridiculously lazy writing.  Frodo had several similar visions on the way to Modor.  Still doesn’t pay the till.  

And, to address the Westeros point, she really wasn’t.  She had moral justification for everything she did.  Which was consistent with her growth up until that point.  “Ruthless tyrant”, respectfully, is a gross overstatement of what she was leaving across the sea.  

The show tried to save the sloppy narrative they were about to inflict on us when she got there, but it was so obvious as to be insulting while we watched it.  

It was irredeemably bad writing and plot narrative. The worst part was how lazy it was.  And I say that as someone who adored the franchise. 

 
Ive just said the writing was “terrible” so your comment that I’m “into ridiculously lazy writing” seems misplaced. I didn’t like the last few season, entirely because of the weak writing. I don’t think it’s wise to defend the morality of this character. Maybe her story was lazy and stupid, but the writers could not have telegraphed their terrible lazy character arc any more clearly - she was going to take what she viewed as hers and rain hellfire down on anything that stood in her way. The scene everyone loves so much when she stole the unsullied army is ridiculous. In the world they created, it wouldn’t make sense for her to become a benevolent, kind leader. 

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9 hours ago, Ghost Rider said:


Agreed. The ending wasn't great, but it wasn't terrible like some think it was, but you know how it is once a little negativity catches on with folks on the internet.  People love a bandwagon. I work with a guy who thought it was all okay and then months after the finale decided that it was the worst thing ever, and it was obvious that reading all of the negativity got in his head. 


Exactly. I was like, were people not paying attention? Danny always had that "My dragons will burn anyone who gets in my way" mentality, and once her two closest friends (Jorah and Missandei) were dead and she had lost all faith in the one other person who could check her worst impulses (Tyrion), there was no one left to get in her ear, and it was scorched earth time. 

 

They weren't in her way anymore.  There was NOTHING that indicated she would burn a whole city and "civilians" at all.  Ever.  Maybe GRRM will have her do this as well, but the show butchered the last few seasons with pacing that never allowed for this type of thing from the character.  

Seasons 1-4 had 100% source material, and were the best seasons.  Season 5 had limited material and was quite weak.  Season 6 had some great scenes/episodes and there was a lot to go on (and I am sure discussed with GRRM) about the Jon Snow reveal.  But then it all kind of went to ####.  And you would be hard pressed to find a bigger fan of the show and books than me prior.

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1 hour ago, CletiusMaximus said:

 
Ive just said the writing was “terrible” so your comment that I’m “into ridiculously lazy writing” seems misplaced. I didn’t like the last few season, entirely because of the weak writing. I don’t think it’s wise to defend the morality of this character. Maybe her story was lazy and stupid, but the writers could not have telegraphed their terrible lazy character arc any more clearly - she was going to take what she viewed as hers and rain hellfire down on anything that stood in her way. The scene everyone loves so much when she stole the unsullied army is ridiculous. In the world they created, it wouldn’t make sense for her to become a benevolent, kind leader. 

The people of king’s landing, including the women and children, were not standing in her way though.  The breaker of chains started slaughtering innocents, for no reason.  They surrendered.  

I guess we just see it differently.  

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22 hours ago, AAABatteries said:

It appears I posted in this thread sometime but had mostly avoided it for years as I didn't watch much of the TV show.  Loved the books and was just hoping and praying Martin would do something but I've given up.  I have HBO now and I'm going to go back and watch the whole thing.  It appears there's a lot of complaints about the final season(s) but that won't sway me - I'm still happy I watched Lost through the end.  Wish me luck.

 

GoT's fall was much faster and much further than Lost.

This is a lot more like Dexter where it went from grade-A writing and storytelling to absolute garbage overnight.  I still think the s6 finale (Winds of Winter) was possibly the best episode of the whole series.  And then the very next episode (and all of the rest) was like you were watching something completely different.

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19 hours ago, Sinn Fein said:

 

I think they did telegraph Daenerys' future going all the way back to season 1 - when she burned the woman for cursing Drogo, or when she nonchalant;y watched her brother get melted, or when she first uttered the word: "Dracarys" in the House fo the Undying.  Or when she killed the Khals, or when she killed teh slave trader that sold her the unsullied, or the guy from Mereen sent to negotiate, or the Tarleys, or Varys, etc.

 

Whenever Daenerys did not get her way, or felt disrespected, she burned #### down.  We, as an audience, tended to overlook it, because we were rooting for her to win.

 

With regard to Daenerys specifically I don't think most people care that she turned heel, rather that it was done so poorly.  The foreshadowing about Dany turning could not have been more obvious.  It was like we were watching Revenge of the Sith after already seeing the Original Trilogy of Star Wars.  Almost everyone knew it was coming.  It was just done in such a dopey network TV way.

Dany making a constipated face and deciding to ignore the woman she's been hunting for half the show to go kill some randos instead isn't good writing no matter how much her heel turn was foreshadowed.  I've said before a much better version of this would have been if Cersei had tried to hide among the innocents or brought the innocents into the red keep to deter Dany and she'd just said screw it and killed everyone to make sure she got Cersei.  But her ignoring a completely vulnerable Cersei to go do other stuff because Cersei made her mad was dumb.  It felt like we were watching CBS (as did the entire last season).

I think the entire change of GoT as a series can be seen in parallel to the change in the character of Varys.  In the early seasons he is a brilliant character.  Always operating in the shadows, with some plan that goes 8 levels deep, we have no idea what his true motivations are, any scene involving him speaking with someone is like reading great literature. 

Then in season 8 Varys is essentially walking around with a megaphone yelling to anyone who will listen "hay guys I'm going to betray the queen.  I want to stab her just right in the back.  I don't really have a plan but maybe we could get some pointy thing and just kind of poke her with it.  If anyone would like to join up with me in betraying the queen just shoot me a text.  Boy I hope she doesn't hear about this thing I'm telling to everyone that would be awkward for me lol".

It was just a whole change in the entire tone, pace, and writing of the show.  The first 6 seasons were like watching The Wire on HBO.  The last two like watching Revolution on NBC.  It went from serious intricate drama to dopey action romp with hilariously depicted character motivations overnight.   It was like watching the first 2 and a half hours of Schindler's List and then suddnely getting Ben Afflect's Pearl Harbor as the final act.  They're both fine on their own, I guess, but they don't really go together.

 

Edited by FreeBaGeL
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The last couple posts mirror what I was getting at with my Breaking Bad post in the streaming thread.   For me, the Dany thing was dumb, but in a better show I could have looked past that (ie I didn't like the plane crash stuff in BB and the car gun thing was a bit much).  The problem for me, was that was a bit of a cherry on top of a crap sundae that was 4 seasons of:  characters changing (see Varys above), 5mile underwater swims, dumb WW capture expeditions, one note villains like Ramsay, too much Reek, hold the door, etc..   It was just an exclamation point on what I thought was a near 180 in quality of the show from the first 4 seasons to the last 4.   

Mostly the people who don't seem to be that bothered with the Dany stuff seem to be the ones that don't agree that the show dipped that much in quality.  JMO.  

And I don't put all of this on D&D - some of these were issues that I had with books 1-3 vs. books 4/5:  killed off too many of the interesting characters and a lot of my top 10 characters, and then put some of the best remaining characters with what I found to be boring ones - ie Tyrion with Dany.   

Edited by KarmaPolice
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22 hours ago, thecatch said:
23 hours ago, CletiusMaximus said:

Does Martin have any role in this?  I think some parts of this story is addressed in ASOIF. There's a backstory there.

 

He wrote a book on the backstory for the Targ dynasty, but it was more like an encyclopedia than a novel.  A lot of the dialog people loved and got hooked on from the first few seasons of the show was lifted almost verbatim out of his books.  So this show won't have the benefit of that detailed, prewritten material to draw from.

 

Thanks. I was just going to ask about this,  I didn't read "Fire and Blood"  but heard it was more family tree and less story telling, 

 

 

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