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Official Johnny Manziel Thread - participates in Fan Controlled Football: 'Feels like I'm super washed up'


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This is the right call. He didn't do anything to earn the job and the coach can always go TOWARDS him later but it would be very hard to start him, then put him on the bench, and then go back to the future (hello, McFly?).

He likely sealed his fate when he flipped off the opponents. Even if completely justified, it was just the epitome of everything people are concerned with regarding him. Passion and enthusiasm is a close cousin to disrespect and disregard for authority and structure.

The team needs a leader to which people can clearly see is the company man doing it the new coaches way. That is easy to see in Hoyer and almost impossible to recognize with Manziel. §

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His argument is pretty ridiculous, but there's really no reason to bring up Ferguson or the I can't breathe protests in response. Pretty poor taste here guys.

JOhnny's physical gifts that set him apart in college don't seem to be setting him apart in the NFL, and not sure they will.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but how are you guys coming to these conclusions? He looked solid in the first preseason game. He looked bad in the second. Nevermind that these are preseason games with a below average team and his first taste of action in the NFL as a 21 (22?) year old... they're not even full games! How are you guys drawing these conclusions after such a small sample size? Are you legitimately writing him off for the rest of his career, or are you just using part of one bad game as an excuse to hate on him when you already hated him going in.

That's a serious question, by the way - are you really telling me you can draw meaningful conclusions on a rookie's entire career based on (less than) two preseason games?

How?

1. He's way to short... it took Drew Brees several years to really figure out how to see over an offensive line.

2. He's never had an actual offense to run... every game was Night at the Improv for him since he was a kid. It reminds me of the movie drumline where Nick Cannon is a prodigy drummer but never knew how to read music and they cut to a 2 minute montage of him learning. The only difference is there's not going to be some cute montage of Johnny learning how to understand an NFL playbook. It's going to take him a year or two to fully grasp the concepts of calling protections and audibling out of plays etc.

3. He's not actually that fast, he keeps getting all these comparisons to guys like RG3 and Vick for some reason, but he's really not that fast. Can he run? Sure, will he outrun many people in the NFL? No. He's about the speed of your average LB or an elite DE. He's slower than Griffin (4.41sec), Russell Wilson (4.55sec), Andrew Luck (4.67), Colin Kaepernick (4.53), Jake Locker (4.59), Cam Newton (4.59), Geno Smith (4.59), EJ Manuel (4.65) hell... he's slower than Blaine friggin' Cabbert at 4.62. Johnny ran a 4.68, that's fairly average for a QB these days.

All these motions of his physical gifts were so blown out of proportion. He's not that fast, he's not that agile and he has no real clue how to play the game of football. He's literally just Tim Tebow with a slightly better arm and half the size. I'll be shocked if he actually succeeds as everything is against him.

He's the size of Drew Brees or Russell Wilson without Wilson/Brees' arm strength and accuracy

He's actually pretty slow

And he has no idea how to play.

Pretty much on target here, with a slight nit to pick on Kaepernick's 40 time: it's actually an official 4.63. Lots of sites still show his unofficial time of 4.53, but if you go back to the video (I remember his combine) or watch last years video where he was compared to Cam Newton, you'll see he is a 4.63 at the combine. There's a great video of RGIII, Newton, Kaepernick and Luck that transposes their 40's as well. Pretty clear pecking order there. Manziel would come in a hair behind Luck, who is about 4 inches taller and 30 pounds heavier. Luck is criminally underrated as an athlete.
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Washington safety Ryan Clark was on Mike & Mike this morning, and he told them what led to Fingergate.

Basically, the players on the Skins sidelines said "This isn't college anymore, and we are as fast as you are."

"Among other stuff"

I'm not certain that Manziel was much faster than the competition in college either: 4.68 ain't fast. He didn't ever look like a burner at A&M; he looked like a guy who could improvise and who would often go off script and bail out of the pocket. This throws the defense off as much (or more) as it does his WR's.
You're right...speed had little to do with it...it was his quickness, change of direction, and ability to feel and react a half-step before the defender.

I think that will still help at this level, but he has to learn to use it to find a window to throw...like Wilson.

Manziel was able to look like a better athlete in college for 2 reasons. The first was his amazing oline. The second was the lack of technique and discipline college player play with compared to the NFL. The team that played him most like NFL teams will was LSU and they terrorized him. They had great athletes, for college, and preached gap and eye discipline to keep Manziel in the pocket and in front of them. NFL teams will do the same because he is still making all the same mistakes as he did then.

His quickness and ability to change direction is unique though for a QB. He has to learn to use it the right way.
His quickness and change of direction were unique for college. I don't expect that to be the case in the NFL. He must win within the pocket or he will not win in the NFL. He is not a Cam, Luck, RG3 or Vick level athlete.
He's not at the Wilson, Kaepernick or Luck level of athlete either.

To be fair, very few thought Wilson or Kaepernick were capable of all they have accomplished so early in their careers. Both were the 6th QB off the board in their respective drafts.

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Washington safety Ryan Clark was on Mike & Mike this morning, and he told them what led to Fingergate.

Basically, the players on the Skins sidelines said "This isn't college anymore, and we are as fast as you are."

"Among other stuff"

I'm not certain that Manziel was much faster than the competition in college either: 4.68 ain't fast. He didn't ever look like a burner at A&M; he looked like a guy who could improvise and who would often go off script and bail out of the pocket. This throws the defense off as much (or more) as it does his WR's.
You're right...speed had little to do with it...it was his quickness, change of direction, and ability to feel and react a half-step before the defender.

I think that will still help at this level, but he has to learn to use it to find a window to throw...like Wilson.

Manziel was able to look like a better athlete in college for 2 reasons. The first was his amazing oline. The second was the lack of technique and discipline college player play with compared to the NFL. The team that played him most like NFL teams will was LSU and they terrorized him. They had great athletes, for college, and preached gap and eye discipline to keep Manziel in the pocket and in front of them. NFL teams will do the same because he is still making all the same mistakes as he did then.
His quickness and ability to change direction is unique though for a QB. He has to learn to use it the right way.
His quickness and change of direction were unique for college. I don't expect that to be the case in the NFL. He must win within the pocket or he will not win in the NFL. He is not a Cam, Luck, RG3 or Vick level athlete.
He's not at the Wilson, Kaepernick or Luck level of athlete either.

To be fair, very few thought Wilson or Kaepernick were capable of all they have accomplished so early in their careers. Both were the 6th QB off the board in their respective drafts.

most thought if Wilson was 2 inches taller he would be a top 5 pick

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Washington safety Ryan Clark was on Mike & Mike this morning, and he told them what led to Fingergate.

Basically, the players on the Skins sidelines said "This isn't college anymore, and we are as fast as you are."

"Among other stuff"

I'm not certain that Manziel was much faster than the competition in college either: 4.68 ain't fast. He didn't ever look like a burner at A&M; he looked like a guy who could improvise and who would often go off script and bail out of the pocket. This throws the defense off as much (or more) as it does his WR's.
You're right...speed had little to do with it...it was his quickness, change of direction, and ability to feel and react a half-step before the defender.

I think that will still help at this level, but he has to learn to use it to find a window to throw...like Wilson.

Manziel was able to look like a better athlete in college for 2 reasons. The first was his amazing oline. The second was the lack of technique and discipline college player play with compared to the NFL. The team that played him most like NFL teams will was LSU and they terrorized him. They had great athletes, for college, and preached gap and eye discipline to keep Manziel in the pocket and in front of them. NFL teams will do the same because he is still making all the same mistakes as he did then.
His quickness and ability to change direction is unique though for a QB. He has to learn to use it the right way.
His quickness and change of direction were unique for college. I don't expect that to be the case in the NFL. He must win within the pocket or he will not win in the NFL. He is not a Cam, Luck, RG3 or Vick level athlete.
He's not at the Wilson, Kaepernick or Luck level of athlete either.
To be fair, very few thought Wilson or Kaepernick were capable of all they have accomplished so early in their careers. Both were the 6th QB off the board in their respective drafts.

most thought if Wilson was 2 inches taller he would be a top 5 pick

Yet there he was falling into the 3rd round.

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It would be refreshing if the kool aid drinkers on this thread would simply post

"I was wrong"

It will never happen but we be cool if so

So after week 2 of pre-season of his rookie year this kid is doomed to failure? That's silly.

Nah, panthercub has hated Johnny since college.

At least he's consistent.

Which is fine. But my point is that he's saying people should admit they were wrong before he or his team have even played a regular season game.

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It would be refreshing if the kool aid drinkers on this thread would simply post

"I was wrong"

It will never happen but we be cool if so

So after week 2 of pre-season of his rookie year this kid is doomed to failure? That's silly.

Nah, panthercub has hated Johnny since college.

At least he's consistent.

Which is fine. But my point is that he's saying people should admit they were wrong before he or his team have even played a regular season game.

Which is also consistent with his tone throughout this thread.

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JOhnny's physical gifts that set him apart in college don't seem to be setting him apart in the NFL, and not sure they will.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but how are you guys coming to these conclusions? He looked solid in the first preseason game. He looked bad in the second. Nevermind that these are preseason games with a below average team and his first taste of action in the NFL as a 21 (22?) year old... they're not even full games! How are you guys drawing these conclusions after such a small sample size? Are you legitimately writing him off for the rest of his career, or are you just using part of one bad game as an excuse to hate on him when you already hated him going in.

That's a serious question, by the way - are you really telling me you can draw meaningful conclusions on a rookie's entire career based on (less than) two preseason games?

How?

1. He's way to short... it took Drew Brees several years to really figure out how to see over an offensive line.

2. He's never had an actual offense to run... every game was Night at the Improv for him since he was a kid. It reminds me of the movie drumline where Nick Cannon is a prodigy drummer but never knew how to read music and they cut to a 2 minute montage of him learning. The only difference is there's not going to be some cute montage of Johnny learning how to understand an NFL playbook. It's going to take him a year or two to fully grasp the concepts of calling protections and audibling out of plays etc.

3. He's not actually that fast, he keeps getting all these comparisons to guys like RG3 and Vick for some reason, but he's really not that fast. Can he run? Sure, will he outrun many people in the NFL? No. He's about the speed of your average LB or an elite DE. He's slower than Griffin (4.41sec), Russell Wilson (4.55sec), Andrew Luck (4.67), Colin Kaepernick (4.53), Jake Locker (4.59), Cam Newton (4.59), Geno Smith (4.59), EJ Manuel (4.65) hell... he's slower than Blaine friggin' Cabbert at 4.62. Johnny ran a 4.68, that's fairly average for a QB these days.

All these motions of his physical gifts were so blown out of proportion. He's not that fast, he's not that agile and he has no real clue how to play the game of football. He's literally just Tim Tebow with a slightly better arm and half the size. I'll be shocked if he actually succeeds as everything is against him.

He's the size of Drew Brees or Russell Wilson without Wilson/Brees' arm strength and accuracy

He's actually pretty slow

And he has no idea how to play.

Pretty much on target here, with a slight nit to pick on Kaepernick's 40 time: it's actually an official 4.63. Lots of sites still show his unofficial time of 4.53, but if you go back to the video (I remember his combine) or watch last years video where he was compared to Cam Newton, you'll see he is a 4.63 at the combine. There's a great video of RGIII, Newton, Kaepernick and Luck that transposes their 40's as well. Pretty clear pecking order there. Manziel would come in a hair behind Luck, who is about 4 inches taller and 30 pounds heavier. Luck is criminally underrated as an athlete.

Exactly my point... all these guys that are a little too small (RG3, Vick, Brees, Wilson) are either extremely pinpoint accurate... so fast they can outrun just about any defender or both. Manziel is neither of them. The rest of the guys he's being compared to are 2-4 inches taller than him and significantly heavier/bulkier and also... better passers still. And this is coming from someone who thinks Kaep is a horrible passer. I really don't buy into Manziel as a long term option at the position and would be shocked if he was ever any more successful than Tebow was because Tebow is really about where I draw his comparison. At the very least, I'd say on a scale he's significantly closer to Tebow than he is to any of the other guys in his comparison conversations.

Maybe in two years we can reevaluate him, but for now I'd say he's going to be a bust. It's way to early to say that with any real certainty obviously, but early on he's shown me absolutely ZERO to stall my original thoughts and evaluations of him as a NFL QB. He's been just as slow, inaccurate and irrelevant as I thought he would be. For someone who was supposed to be the second coming of Jesus himself it's rather sad that he couldn't show enough against the #2s of the friggin Washington Redskins bargain basement defense to pull ahead of Hoyer for the starting gig. Hoyer was downright awful in that game and Johnny was downright embarrassing. When you still can't be your 'electric' self against the 2nd team defense of one of the worst defenses in the NFL, it's unlikely you ever will be.

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Washington safety Ryan Clark was on Mike & Mike this morning, and he told them what led to Fingergate.

Basically, the players on the Skins sidelines said "This isn't college anymore, and we are as fast as you are."

"Among other stuff"

I'm not certain that Manziel was much faster than the competition in college either: 4.68 ain't fast. He didn't ever look like a burner at A&M; he looked like a guy who could improvise and who would often go off script and bail out of the pocket. This throws the defense off as much (or more) as it does his WR's.
You're right...speed had little to do with it...it was his quickness, change of direction, and ability to feel and react a half-step before the defender.

I think that will still help at this level, but he has to learn to use it to find a window to throw...like Wilson.

Manziel was able to look like a better athlete in college for 2 reasons. The first was his amazing oline. The second was the lack of technique and discipline college player play with compared to the NFL. The team that played him most like NFL teams will was LSU and they terrorized him. They had great athletes, for college, and preached gap and eye discipline to keep Manziel in the pocket and in front of them. NFL teams will do the same because he is still making all the same mistakes as he did then.

His quickness and ability to change direction is unique though for a QB. He has to learn to use it the right way.
His quickness and change of direction were unique for college. I don't expect that to be the case in the NFL. He must win within the pocket or he will not win in the NFL. He is not a Cam, Luck, RG3 or Vick level athlete.
He's not at the Wilson, Kaepernick or Luck level of athlete either.
To be fair, very few thought Wilson or Kaepernick were capable of all they have accomplished so early in their careers. Both were the 6th QB off the board in their respective drafts.
I'd go so far as to say nobody thought Wilson would accomplish what he has up to this point. Yet there he is, rewriting the record books and leading his team to a championship.

Manziel is the opposite. He wasn't as good as Wilson in college either, but the hype for him coming out was much greater than for Wilson, Kaepernick and even RGIII. Yet he had glaring questions surrounding his play calling, arm strength and whether his game would translate in the NFL.

Early results aren't promising, though it may be unfair to judge him at this early date. But it's perfectly fair to correctly asses his ability in relation to his peers. He just doesn't measure up.

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Couldn't have gone any other way imo.

No lose for Cleveland this way. Start the vet with the tough opening schedule - if he succeeds you look good, if he fails you still look good and get to bring in your first round pick with more time under his belt.

Edited by matuski
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Manziel will be lucky to make 30 starts in this league.

And the masses will watch every one.

Not really. He's not being promoted the way Vick was and if he's not getting luck miracles like Tebow, no one will care.

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Washington safety Ryan Clark was on Mike & Mike this morning, and he told them what led to Fingergate.

Basically, the players on the Skins sidelines said "This isn't college anymore, and we are as fast as you are."

"Among other stuff"

I'm not certain that Manziel was much faster than the competition in college either: 4.68 ain't fast. He didn't ever look like a burner at A&M; he looked like a guy who could improvise and who would often go off script and bail out of the pocket. This throws the defense off as much (or more) as it does his WR's.
You're right...speed had little to do with it...it was his quickness, change of direction, and ability to feel and react a half-step before the defender.

I think that will still help at this level, but he has to learn to use it to find a window to throw...like Wilson.

Manziel was able to look like a better athlete in college for 2 reasons. The first was his amazing oline. The second was the lack of technique and discipline college player play with compared to the NFL. The team that played him most like NFL teams will was LSU and they terrorized him. They had great athletes, for college, and preached gap and eye discipline to keep Manziel in the pocket and in front of them. NFL teams will do the same because he is still making all the same mistakes as he did then.
His quickness and ability to change direction is unique though for a QB. He has to learn to use it the right way.
His quickness and change of direction were unique for college. I don't expect that to be the case in the NFL. He must win within the pocket or he will not win in the NFL. He is not a Cam, Luck, RG3 or Vick level athlete.
He's not at the Wilson, Kaepernick or Luck level of athlete either.
To be fair, very few thought Wilson or Kaepernick were capable of all they have accomplished so early in their careers. Both were the 6th QB off the board in their respective drafts.
I'd go so far as to say nobody thought Wilson would accomplish what he has up to this point. Yet there he is, rewriting the record books and leading his team to a championship.

Manziel is the opposite. He wasn't as good as Wilson in college either, but the hype for him coming out was much greater than for Wilson, Kaepernick and even RGIII. Yet he had glaring questions surrounding his play calling, arm strength and whether his game would translate in the NFL.

Early results aren't promising, though it may be unfair to judge him at this early date. But it's perfectly fair to correctly asses his ability in relation to his peers. He just doesn't measure up.

Arguably one of the most baseless posts I've seen in awhile.

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Something that hasn't been discussed much... everyone keeps saying "Johnny will likely take over after the Week 4 bye". The Browns start the season out against the Steelers, Saints and Ravens. Everyone is automatically starting them 0-3, but this defense is a top 3 unit in my opinion. What if the Browns go into the bye at 2-1 having beat Pit and Baltimore... there's no way Johnny touches the field in Week 5 right? And then they play:

Titans

Steelers

Jags

Raiders

Bucs

Bengals

Texans

Falcons

Bills

Colts

Bengals

Panthers

Ravens

If they go 2-1 to start and Hoyer stays QB, I can see a legit possibility of them going 9-7 and if they can maybe pull off a huge upset somewhere against NO, IND or Cincy maybe 10-6 which could put them in contention for the playoffs. Again, I'm just spit balling here but looking at their schedule outside of Indy, Atlanta and Carolina all their games are cake that aren't division games. And they usually play tough in division. Last year all the divisional games were pretty close:

Week 2: CLE 6 - BAL 14

Week 4: CIN 6 - CLE 17

Week 9 - BAL 18 - CLE 24

Week 11 - CLE 20 - CIN 41

Week 12 - PIT 27 - CLE 11

Week 17 - CLE 7 - PIT 20

So they won 2 of the games, they might actually win Week 2 if Hoyer got the nod over Weeden. It's not like they were lights out but they could definitely be put in a situation where they can win 3 of these divisional games.

But anyway, the whole point of this post is... what if the Browns somehow make it into the playoffs on a WC birth with Hoyer. Do they really let him walk to FA next season and start Johnny if he's still struggling with the playbook somewhat? Or do they reevaluate Hoyer?

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Greg Cossel had an interesting take on a recent XM Sirius podcast, talking about JFF. Of course, he's the guy that called Manziel "almost undraftable" so we know where he stands.

Point he made was he asked the question, what is it about Manziel that he can hang his hat on? For the elite QB's, it's their arm strength, athleticism, intangibles, leadership traits, physical measurables, etc. When you think about JFF, what's the thing that comes to mind? Answer: He's this great leader who somehow wills his team to win and is more competitive than the other guy. Answer 2: He's a "playmaker", whatever that means. The point Cossel makes is JFF can't build on being a playmaker or a scrambler. This league is full of guys who are driven to succeed, treat their bodies and their profession with cold dead serious win at all costs passion. The implication that Johnny is more competitive than seasoned vets is what irks a lot of players who will face him and taunt him like those Redskins players and Orakpo who enjoy bringing down the legend of Johnny. In their minds, he's not earned all the press and accolades. Even the hotheads like Phillip Rivers for instance had an elite arm to build around as a platform. JFF has nothing but old college headlines and an awful lot of hate for his game and alienation of his teammates and foes alike for his immaturity. As a developmental QB, he's got a long way to go.

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Washington safety Ryan Clark was on Mike & Mike this morning, and he told them what led to Fingergate.

Basically, the players on the Skins sidelines said "This isn't college anymore, and we are as fast as you are."

"Among other stuff"

I'm not certain that Manziel was much faster than the competition in college either: 4.68 ain't fast. He didn't ever look like a burner at A&M; he looked like a guy who could improvise and who would often go off script and bail out of the pocket. This throws the defense off as much (or more) as it does his WR's.
You're right...speed had little to do with it...it was his quickness, change of direction, and ability to feel and react a half-step before the defender.

I think that will still help at this level, but he has to learn to use it to find a window to throw...like Wilson.

Manziel was able to look like a better athlete in college for 2 reasons. The first was his amazing oline. The second was the lack of technique and discipline college player play with compared to the NFL. The team that played him most like NFL teams will was LSU and they terrorized him. They had great athletes, for college, and preached gap and eye discipline to keep Manziel in the pocket and in front of them. NFL teams will do the same because he is still making all the same mistakes as he did then.
His quickness and ability to change direction is unique though for a QB. He has to learn to use it the right way.
His quickness and change of direction were unique for college. I don't expect that to be the case in the NFL. He must win within the pocket or he will not win in the NFL. He is not a Cam, Luck, RG3 or Vick level athlete.
He's not at the Wilson, Kaepernick or Luck level of athlete either.
To be fair, very few thought Wilson or Kaepernick were capable of all they have accomplished so early in their careers. Both were the 6th QB off the board in their respective drafts.
I'd go so far as to say nobody thought Wilson would accomplish what he has up to this point. Yet there he is, rewriting the record books and leading his team to a championship.

Manziel is the opposite. He wasn't as good as Wilson in college either, but the hype for him coming out was much greater than for Wilson, Kaepernick and even RGIII. Yet he had glaring questions surrounding his play calling, arm strength and whether his game would translate in the NFL.

Early results aren't promising, though it may be unfair to judge him at this early date. But it's perfectly fair to correctly asses his ability in relation to his peers. He just doesn't measure up.

Arguably one of the most baseless posts I've seen in awhile.

Do you have the argument? I'll put mine on Wilson's last two seasons, but particularly his season at Wisconsin. One of the best played seasons by a QB in my lifetime.
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It's Cleveland. NOTHING and I mean nothing can be definitive on this kid until he gets the hell out of there.

Secondly- his coach is just horrendous. #### already! You know how bad he is? WAAAAAAAAY too much talking. Great coaches don't sit down to discuss their thinking in depth to the media on a daily basis. Way too much info being given out and shows his inexperience. Don't give the media or anybody else ammunition.

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It's Cleveland. NOTHING and I mean nothing can be definitive on this kid until he gets the hell out of there.

Secondly- his coach is just horrendous. #### already! You know how bad he is? WAAAAAAAAY too much talking. Great coaches don't sit down to discuss their thinking in depth to the media on a daily basis. Way too much info being given out and shows his inexperience. Don't give the media or anybody else ammunition.

I agree, I though CLE was a great landing spot after what happened last year. Since the Gordon announcement Johnny's situation seems to get worse by the day.

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It's Cleveland. NOTHING and I mean nothing can be definitive on this kid until he gets the hell out of there.

Secondly- his coach is just horrendous. #### already! You know how bad he is? WAAAAAAAAY too much talking. Great coaches don't sit down to discuss their thinking in depth to the media on a daily basis. Way too much info being given out and shows his inexperience. Don't give the media or anybody else ammunition.

I totally disagree about your take on Pettine. His direct approach is very refreshing. I bet it'll come off well in the locker room.

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It's Cleveland. NOTHING and I mean nothing can be definitive on this kid until he gets the hell out of there.

Secondly- his coach is just horrendous. #### already! You know how bad he is? WAAAAAAAAY too much talking. Great coaches don't sit down to discuss their thinking in depth to the media on a daily basis. Way too much info being given out and shows his inexperience. Don't give the media or anybody else ammunition.

I totally disagree about your take on Pettine. His direct approach is very refreshing. I bet it'll come off well in the locker room.
All of this. Like 100% of it is designed to motivate Manziel to become the star he is capable of becoming. I don't have a problem with any of it. Edited by Gandalf
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Greg Cossel had an interesting take on a recent XM Sirius podcast, talking about JFF. Of course, he's the guy that called Manziel "almost undraftable" so we know where he stands.

Point he made was he asked the question, what is it about Manziel that he can hang his hat on? For the elite QB's, it's their arm strength, athleticism, intangibles, leadership traits, physical measurables, etc. When you think about JFF, what's the thing that comes to mind? Answer: He's this great leader who somehow wills his team to win and is more competitive than the other guy. Answer 2: He's a "playmaker", whatever that means. The point Cossel makes is JFF can't build on being a playmaker or a scrambler. This league is full of guys who are driven to succeed, treat their bodies and their profession with cold dead serious win at all costs passion. The implication that Johnny is more competitive than seasoned vets is what irks a lot of players who will face him and taunt him like those Redskins players and Orakpo who enjoy bringing down the legend of Johnny. In their minds, he's not earned all the press and accolades. Even the hotheads like Phillip Rivers for instance had an elite arm to build around as a platform. JFF has nothing but old college headlines and an awful lot of hate for his game and alienation of his teammates and foes alike for his immaturity. As a developmental QB, he's got a long way to go.

Essentially what I've been trying to say... things an NFL QB is graded on and if I had to 'grade' Johnny.

Arm Strength: B : Definitely not "elite" from an arm strength standpoint, but he doesn't have a weak arm either.

Accuracy: C- : His accuracy is pretty suspect, he's definitely one of those guys I define as a "TO" guy. In the sense, he can make circus throws better than he can make real NFL passes. Just watch his career highlights, his best throws are when he's floating in midair and somehow throws a perfect pass to a guy. But then if you watch his real games, he'll try to throw a simple crossing route and underthrow the guy by a yard or two from 5 yards behind the LOS.

Athleticism: A- : Is he athletic? Yeah. Is he fast? No. People seem to be getting this confused. He's fairly average for a QB in terms of speed, in the NFL it's unlikely we'll see him as this elite scrambler. The average LB is faster than him and most CBs are too.

Game Intelligence: F : He might as well be fresh out of peewee. He has zero experience running an actual offense, his entire career to this point has been a night at the Improv. He has no idea how to read a playbook, call protections, audible out of bad protections etc. these are things that take most QBs their entire lives leading up to the NFL to learn and we're expecting Johnny to learn it in a year or two.

Leadership: C- : He has a lot of the qualities of a leader, but he's also a cocky kid who thinks he's Jesus Christ incarnate. You'll be hard pressed to find any veterans who will take his crap. He's going to have to show a LOT of game breaking ability and put his money where is mouth is if he wants to earn the respect of his teammates.

Point is... if we were evaluating him as a basketball player, we'd probably be laughing and telling him to go join the Globetrotters. Cause he's more of a circus football player than a football player. He needs to do a LOT of learning and he has nobody on this team to learn from, which is a problem. Had the Texans (O'Brien) drafted him... or the Vikings (Turner) or the 49ers (Harbaugh) etc. I'd have felt more comfortable about the guy. Instead, they brought in Kyle Shanahan who is the complete opposite of the type of coach Manziel needs. The Shanahan's ruined RG3 who in my opinion was/is a significantly better talent than Manziel in every single category you look for in a QB. And I think Shanahan's presence is something being overlooked a lot here.

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Greg Cossel had an interesting take on a recent XM Sirius podcast, talking about JFF. Of course, he's the guy that called Manziel "almost undraftable" so we know where he stands.

Point he made was he asked the question, what is it about Manziel that he can hang his hat on? For the elite QB's, it's their arm strength, athleticism, intangibles, leadership traits, physical measurables, etc. When you think about JFF, what's the thing that comes to mind? Answer: He's this great leader who somehow wills his team to win and is more competitive than the other guy. Answer 2: He's a "playmaker", whatever that means. The point Cossel makes is JFF can't build on being a playmaker or a scrambler. This league is full of guys who are driven to succeed, treat their bodies and their profession with cold dead serious win at all costs passion. The implication that Johnny is more competitive than seasoned vets is what irks a lot of players who will face him and taunt him like those Redskins players and Orakpo who enjoy bringing down the legend of Johnny. In their minds, he's not earned all the press and accolades. Even the hotheads like Phillip Rivers for instance had an elite arm to build around as a platform. JFF has nothing but old college headlines and an awful lot of hate for his game and alienation of his teammates and foes alike for his immaturity. As a developmental QB, he's got a long way to go.

Essentially what I've been trying to say... things an NFL QB is graded on and if I had to 'grade' Johnny.

Arm Strength: B : Definitely not "elite" from an arm strength standpoint, but he doesn't have a weak arm either.

Accuracy: C- : His accuracy is pretty suspect, he's definitely one of those guys I define as a "TO" guy. In the sense, he can make circus throws better than he can make real NFL passes. Just watch his career highlights, his best throws are when he's floating in midair and somehow throws a perfect pass to a guy. But then if you watch his real games, he'll try to throw a simple crossing route and underthrow the guy by a yard or two from 5 yards behind the LOS.

Athleticism: A- : Is he athletic? Yeah. Is he fast? No. People seem to be getting this confused. He's fairly average for a QB in terms of speed, in the NFL it's unlikely we'll see him as this elite scrambler. The average LB is faster than him and most CBs are too.

Game Intelligence: F : He might as well be fresh out of peewee. He has zero experience running an actual offense, his entire career to this point has been a night at the Improv. He has no idea how to read a playbook, call protections, audible out of bad protections etc. these are things that take most QBs their entire lives leading up to the NFL to learn and we're expecting Johnny to learn it in a year or two.

Leadership: C- : He has a lot of the qualities of a leader, but he's also a cocky kid who thinks he's Jesus Christ incarnate. You'll be hard pressed to find any veterans who will take his crap. He's going to have to show a LOT of game breaking ability and put his money where is mouth is if he wants to earn the respect of his teammates.

Point is... if we were evaluating him as a basketball player, we'd probably be laughing and telling him to go join the Globetrotters. Cause he's more of a circus football player than a football player. He needs to do a LOT of learning and he has nobody on this team to learn from, which is a problem. Had the Texans (O'Brien) drafted him... or the Vikings (Turner) or the 49ers (Harbaugh) etc. I'd have felt more comfortable about the guy. Instead, they brought in Kyle Shanahan who is the complete opposite of the type of coach Manziel needs. The Shanahan's ruined RG3 who in my opinion was/is a significantly better talent than Manziel in every single category you look for in a QB. And I think Shanahan's presence is something being overlooked a lot here.

Interesting point about Kyle Shanahan. I think we will really get to see what kind of OC he is this year without Kubiak or his dad overseeing him. Now he will actually have to show something to keep his job.

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Washington safety Ryan Clark was on Mike & Mike this morning, and he told them what led to Fingergate.

Basically, the players on the Skins sidelines said "This isn't college anymore, and we are as fast as you are."

"Among other stuff"

I'm not certain that Manziel was much faster than the competition in college either: 4.68 ain't fast. He didn't ever look like a burner at A&M; he looked like a guy who could improvise and who would often go off script and bail out of the pocket. This throws the defense off as much (or more) as it does his WR's.
You're right...speed had little to do with it...it was his quickness, change of direction, and ability to feel and react a half-step before the defender.

I think that will still help at this level, but he has to learn to use it to find a window to throw...like Wilson.

Manziel was able to look like a better athlete in college for 2 reasons. The first was his amazing oline. The second was the lack of technique and discipline college player play with compared to the NFL. The team that played him most like NFL teams will was LSU and they terrorized him. They had great athletes, for college, and preached gap and eye discipline to keep Manziel in the pocket and in front of them. NFL teams will do the same because he is still making all the same mistakes as he did then.
His quickness and ability to change direction is unique though for a QB. He has to learn to use it the right way.
His quickness and change of direction were unique for college. I don't expect that to be the case in the NFL. He must win within the pocket or he will not win in the NFL. He is not a Cam, Luck, RG3 or Vick level athlete.
He's not at the Wilson, Kaepernick or Luck level of athlete either.
To be fair, very few thought Wilson or Kaepernick were capable of all they have accomplished so early in their careers. Both were the 6th QB off the board in their respective drafts.
I'd go so far as to say nobody thought Wilson would accomplish what he has up to this point. Yet there he is, rewriting the record books and leading his team to a championship.

Manziel is the opposite. He wasn't as good as Wilson in college either, but the hype for him coming out was much greater than for Wilson, Kaepernick and even RGIII. Yet he had glaring questions surrounding his play calling, arm strength and whether his game would translate in the NFL.Early results aren't promising, though it may be unfair to judge him at this early date. But it's perfectly fair to correctly asses his ability in relation to his peers. He just doesn't measure up.

Arguably one of the most baseless posts I've seen in awhile.

Do you have the argument? I'll put mine on Wilson's last two seasons, but particularly his season at Wisconsin. One of the best played seasons by a QB in my lifetime.

Manziel as a Freshman and Soph averaged 1500 more yards and 7 more TDs than that season from Wilson.

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There aren't many players that can make an argument for a better college career.... ever.

Doesn't mean anything moving into the NFL, but favoring Wilson over Manziel in this regard is a quite silly position to take as a stand alone argument.

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It's Cleveland. NOTHING and I mean nothing can be definitive on this kid until he gets the hell out of there.

Secondly- his coach is just horrendous. #### already! You know how bad he is? WAAAAAAAAY too much talking. Great coaches don't sit down to discuss their thinking in depth to the media on a daily basis. Way too much info being given out and shows his inexperience. Don't give the media or anybody else ammunition.

I totally disagree about your take on Pettine. His direct approach is very refreshing. I bet it'll come off well in the locker room.
All of this. Like 100% of it is designed to motivate Manziel to become the star he is capable of becoming. I don't have a problem with any of it.

I hope you're right, I really do. You guys certainly deserve it.

No, he's a moron.

56 mins ago - "We could potentially look at a two-QB system down the road," Pettine told The Opening Drive on ...

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Did either QB throw downfield? Both had some success with the controlled short passing game...if Johnny plays more like tonight, what does Hoyer bring that Johnny doesn't? Just a matter of time before he takes over.

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It doesn't speak well for Johnny that he is letting people inside his head in preseason. I doubt he has the emotional intelligence to succeed to be honest. He's going to get picked on so much more than Michael Sam.

This post was borderline prophetic.

Not "I'll buy everyone in the world drinks forever" prophetic but impressive nonetheless.

-QG

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  • Faust changed the title to Official Johnny Manziel Thread - participates in Fan Controlled Football: 'Feels like I'm super washed up'

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