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Official Johnny Manziel Thread (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter Faust
- Start date
matuski
Footballguy
Jerk scribbling crap on defenseless babies... loser.
And he wasn't even good in college.
Poor McCoy. He had a stellar college career was as nails as they come. His franchise drafts a running QB and prefers the stationary McCown. He moves onto another team with a running QB, throws lights out accurate and they choose to go with the running QB. He can't catch a break
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
I don't think anyone thought he would run wild like he did in college. However, it is still unclear just how good Manziel can be at running once he starts to learn a play book and become more of a threat throwing the ball.Manziel was a great running QB, as were Tebow and RG3, two other QBs that have struggled or failed to become pocket passers in their NFL transition.
As a pure passer, which is more relevant to Manziel's NFL projection, where would he fit all time collegiately? Not all that high, I'm guessing.
* IMO, people are maybe talking about different things and talking across each other. Partly what started this tangent was that Manziel "should" be respected for his college exploits. As a college player, sure. As a pro, it isn't very meaningful at this point, if he doesn't look a lot better than he did as a rookie. At this point, if he felt a sense of entitlement as the first rounder or coasted on his reputation because he was "the man" in college (partying instead of learning the plays seemed consistent with this) isn't going to cut it at this level.
I did expect him to do better, and rehab was a good step for him, so I'm curious what he could do if he applies himself and works harder. Unfortunately, he dug himself such a deep hole, it is unclear if he will get a chance any time soon. He probably ceded his chance to McCown for now. But how many people respect him or don't respect him means zero to his NFL future. It is all on him. He needs to party less, work harder and stop acting entitled. One way he can do this is to prepare like a starter every week even if he isn't the starter. That increases his chance of success if/when he gets his next chance. Anything short of that level of attitude and preparation would imo be an extremely bad sign for his future.
One thing that we know NOW that we didn't know this time last year, besides the appallingly poor lack of preparation, is he won't be able to run around in the NFL like he did in college. So if you take away the singular thing that made him special, it is unclear what you have left. The late Michael Jackson was a wonderful overall entertainer, but how would his professional career have unfolded differently if he was unable to sing?
Wilson rushed for 850 yards last year. Newton rushed for 741 yards in a season. RGIII had 815 yards as a rookie. You are still able to run even in the pros, but you have to be able to complete some passes.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
RG3 was an Olympic-caliber sprinter and I think faster before his second torn ACL. Cam obviously bigger. Wilson to me is like a smaller Peyton Manning with wheels, as far as his mental command of the offense and how to attack defenses, field awareness, etc. If Manziel can develop football smarts the equal of Wilson, that could increase his chances of replicating what he can do in games, but that could be a tall order. Not for Manziel, but just about any QB, he has a rare football IQ.
Pots
Footballguy
matuski
Footballguy
The only freshman Heisman winner, who followed that up with an arguably better season statistically... did well?
Someone is looking silly here.
His performance in the NFL last year deserves some doubt and criticism, but when your hate makes you unable to accept his greatness at the college level... yikes.
pantherclub
Footballguy
He is most certainly not "one of the greatest college football players.......ever" That is just laughable
Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
No it is not laughable.
Manziel in the SEC had 2 of the most ridiculous statistical years accumulated as a QB. He ran for 1400 yards and 21 td's as a freshman. He also threw for 3700 yards with 26 tds and only 9 ints in that freshman year.
He followed up that freshman year with 759 yards rushing and 9 tds to go along with 4114 yards throwing with 37 tds and 13 ints.
His college resume is ridiculous. Whether his game translates to the pros is for a sure a huge question mark, but as a college player he should be in the conversation as one of the best 2 year runs in the history of the NCAA.
matuski
Footballguy
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
What's so wrong with wanting more players with better character in the NFL? I'm a fan of players that show respect and good sportsmanship. I know not every player that makes it to the NFL is going to fit the mold of players I prefer. It would be way too boring if every was a saint. Just like in any sport or movie, you need antagonists and protagonist. It's what makes it fun.
I would like to see more players try to model themselves after Barry Sanders though. He played the game the way it was suppose to be. When he scored a TD he gave the ball to the ref and went to the sideline. I'd love to see more of that instead of players celebrating after making a sack when down a bunch of points and leading tearing your ACL.
There are some athletes that I respect as athletes because of what they have done at the professional level but I can't stand them because of the type of people they are. Floyd Mayweather is one and Adrian Peterson is another. These are two pieces of crap for human beings but I can't deny how incredibly good they are in their sports. Manziel has not earned the respect yet in the NFL. He may have in on the college level, and I'll admit that he was very good then, but he has a ways to go now.
What do you mean by, "People of your ilk?"
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Bob Magaw
Footballguy
Tebow did great in college, too.Carter_Can_Fly said:
Which means pretty much nothing in the NFL.
As a pure passer, where would Manziel rank in collegiate history?
I'm not in any league where I get points for what he did in college.
Who cares what he did in college, except for how it translates into the NFL? So far, not well.
I don't really even think all that highly of Wilson, but I don't see anything wrong with this sentiment.Pots said:Bob Magaw said:
It's not really comparing Wilson to Manning as a complete QB. Just the way they seem to think about the game as they play, and how it seems to help them make intelligent choices regularly. That's the number one thing you need to be a good game manager, and Wilson's one of the two or three premier game manager QB's in the NFL right now.
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Marginally higher than the guy who replaced him a year later. Although, that's probably more about the difference having Evans made for Manziel.
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Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
Two different arguments here. My first argument was one that was simply defending Manziel's college resume as being one that is awesome. I was not saying it is going to be awesome for his fantasy stats in the NFL.
As a pure passer where would Brady have ranked in collegiate history? I agree with you here that you can't simply use collegiate stats as to defend how awesome a guy will be in the NFL, but that has zero bearing on comparing players collegiate resumes and accomplishments.
My second argument was also saying that it is possible to be able to be a competent running qb in the NFL but only if you can become adequate in the pocket. This is still a major question mark for Manziel as outlined over and over again in this thread. The only weight your Tebow statement carries is he proved that you can't just be a competent running NFL qb, you have to be able to throw the ball.
matuski
Footballguy
It came up when someone here through out the "I don't respect" line about a kid who accomplished more in his profession before age 22 than most of us ever will in our own. The debate continued when the haterade was trying make his NFL failings somehow pollute his all time great college career.
Nobody ever implied his college career mattered in terms of his NFL performance. Nor does his poor showing thus far in the NFL in any way diminish his college performance. Same with Tebow, Young, etc.
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Hawkeye21
Footballguy
Please don't exaggerate what I've been trying to say about Manziel. I don't hate him, I dislike him because of the way he carries himself and therefore I don't respect him. I never once said he was a bad college player. I never said he was a bad athlete. I just don't like his character and I think he needs to earn respect in the NFL. I don't like how he comes off as a guy who just gets to do what ever he wants in the NFL.
Don't get so defensive. Not sure why so many feel they need to defend Manziel right now. He's a big boy, let him prove himself.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
CCF, I understand and appreciate that. I don't really require an explanation for what you meant, I'm just suggesting, imo, his college exploits don't matter very much now.
Put it this way. If given a choice between spending some of his time thinking about how awesome he used to be in the good old days, and reminiscing about the fawning adoration which some used to have for him, or just pretending he was a UFA, not entitled and working accordingly to maximize his chances, the latter strategy might be better for his NFL future.
Deflecting the question with another about Brady doesn't answer mine about Manziel. Where would he rank among pure passers all time? Why is that important? Because it probably will be a much bigger determinant of what he ultimately does in the NFL. Also, if he is far down the list by that criteria, maybe there isn't as much reason to get as excited about his future and prospects - AS A POCKET PASSER IN THE NFL. Some of his success was tied to his ability to run around behind the LOS because he was generally quicker than college defenders, and the Johnny Jump Ball plays to Evans. He isn't as quick relative to pro defenders, and he doesn't have Evans, so again, extrapolating from what he did in college may not be relevant or warranted, if the same circumstances and conditions that led to that earlier success are absent. Another difference between Manziel and Brady, the latter has been known as a keen student of the game and separated himself from the competition by his mental acuity, and the former was abysmal at that last year. Also, at a comparable stage of his career, Brady wasn't coming off of rehab. Brady had a chip on his shoulder, and worked hard to prove others wrong, kind of the opposite of the entitlement Manziel exhibited.
Like Manziel, Tebow did better in college than the pros. It wasn't as apparent he couldn't cut it in the NFL, until he got in the NFL.
Put it this way. If given a choice between spending some of his time thinking about how awesome he used to be in the good old days, and reminiscing about the fawning adoration which some used to have for him, or just pretending he was a UFA, not entitled and working accordingly to maximize his chances, the latter strategy might be better for his NFL future.
Deflecting the question with another about Brady doesn't answer mine about Manziel. Where would he rank among pure passers all time? Why is that important? Because it probably will be a much bigger determinant of what he ultimately does in the NFL. Also, if he is far down the list by that criteria, maybe there isn't as much reason to get as excited about his future and prospects - AS A POCKET PASSER IN THE NFL. Some of his success was tied to his ability to run around behind the LOS because he was generally quicker than college defenders, and the Johnny Jump Ball plays to Evans. He isn't as quick relative to pro defenders, and he doesn't have Evans, so again, extrapolating from what he did in college may not be relevant or warranted, if the same circumstances and conditions that led to that earlier success are absent. Another difference between Manziel and Brady, the latter has been known as a keen student of the game and separated himself from the competition by his mental acuity, and the former was abysmal at that last year. Also, at a comparable stage of his career, Brady wasn't coming off of rehab. Brady had a chip on his shoulder, and worked hard to prove others wrong, kind of the opposite of the entitlement Manziel exhibited.
Like Manziel, Tebow did better in college than the pros. It wasn't as apparent he couldn't cut it in the NFL, until he got in the NFL.
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Pots
Footballguy
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
Some people are less impressed by college football achievement than you.
It isn't like he is Jonas Salk or Gandhi.
Maybe this is a regional thing where people in Texas take their football more seriously than some other regions (especially prep and college)?I disagree with the premise that others should or must respect him for what he did in college. Fantasy football, like a lot of other areas of football, and sports in general, is about what have you done lately. Not much, in his case. Not everybody is as impressed with him as you, or as enthused about his NFL prospects, it doesn't mean they are serving haterade, it just means they have a difference of opinion. It happens sometimes, for non-sinister/nefarious reasons.
He isn't an all time great passer, and that will have more relevance to how his NFL career unfolds (or unwinds), than the fact he was an awesome runner, IN COLLEGE.
Clearly you have a great deal of respect and admiration for him. You don't need validation and confirmation from others to support that. You can carry on respecting and admiring his college resume. And others can carry on thinking that may be effectively meaningless for his NFL projection.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
A 2013 story, presciently called - The trouble with Johnny (maybe he had too much early success, and bought into the rock star hype?).
http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/9521439/heisman-winner-johnny-manziel-celebrity-derail-texas-aggies-season-espn-magazine
"Not long ago, backstage at a country music concert, the two Manziels hung out with some of Johnny's friends. There was Uncle Nate, a high school teammate named Bryan and Johnny's buddy Colton from College Station. Everyone stood around, the band warming up. Without so much as a nod, the Crotch Shot Ninjas struck: Paul punched Nate in the nuts, and, simultaneously, Johnny kicked Bryan and hit Colton, both in the balls, both at the same time, and as the three dudes doubled over and the band howled in laughter, Johnny and Paul gave each other a fist bump. Mission accomplished."
I'm pretty sure this was Brady's MO, randomly kicking/punching others in the nads for no reason and causing agonizing, excruciating pain just because he could, and the sheer fun of seeing other suffer*. Nothing says leader of men like that.
* Wish he had tried that stunt with Charlie Murphy (cocaine is a helluva drug).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDMknqbh_3M
http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/9521439/heisman-winner-johnny-manziel-celebrity-derail-texas-aggies-season-espn-magazine
"Not long ago, backstage at a country music concert, the two Manziels hung out with some of Johnny's friends. There was Uncle Nate, a high school teammate named Bryan and Johnny's buddy Colton from College Station. Everyone stood around, the band warming up. Without so much as a nod, the Crotch Shot Ninjas struck: Paul punched Nate in the nuts, and, simultaneously, Johnny kicked Bryan and hit Colton, both in the balls, both at the same time, and as the three dudes doubled over and the band howled in laughter, Johnny and Paul gave each other a fist bump. Mission accomplished."
I'm pretty sure this was Brady's MO, randomly kicking/punching others in the nads for no reason and causing agonizing, excruciating pain just because he could, and the sheer fun of seeing other suffer*. Nothing says leader of men like that.
* Wish he had tried that stunt with Charlie Murphy (cocaine is a helluva drug).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDMknqbh_3M
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He's been nothing short of a catastrophic failure in -- and embarrassment to -- his profession. He hasn't accomplished jack #### in it, other than wasting his company's resources.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
I think this is where things went off the rails. Nobody is saying they want him to fail in football (let alone life, that was an embellishment). And he hasn't done anything to earn respect, which as far as the NFL is concerned, is not only not controversial, but absolutely true. Who says we have to respect him for his college exploits, instead of acknowledging he has been a mess in the NFL? I'm not judging you, but just pointing out the logical contradiction - if your point is it is wrong to judge people, are you judging the poster?Hey if you feel like it is your place to judge.. be my guest. Hope with all your might that this man fails in life. Very big of you.What are you talking about? I obviously know that know one cares who I respect but I'm one of the thousands that don't respect him. The public as a whole doesn't like him and most importantly his peers do not respect him.
edit - this whole concept of fans "respecting" players is hilarious in my mind.
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Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
Bob,
I am not qualified enough to really rate how prolific or not Manziel was a passer in college. I can simply go by those who are more qualified than myself and what they have said about him.
On stats alone his passing numbers are very good and every bit as good as a guy like Russell Wilson's were in college. I am of the belief that if Manziel fails it will be due to his attitude, work ethic and decision making. Based on what plenty of far more qualified people than me have said is he has more than enough arm strength, talent, and skill to be a competent starting NFL qb.
I am not qualified enough to really rate how prolific or not Manziel was a passer in college. I can simply go by those who are more qualified than myself and what they have said about him.
On stats alone his passing numbers are very good and every bit as good as a guy like Russell Wilson's were in college. I am of the belief that if Manziel fails it will be due to his attitude, work ethic and decision making. Based on what plenty of far more qualified people than me have said is he has more than enough arm strength, talent, and skill to be a competent starting NFL qb.
pantherclub
Footballguy
KellysHeroes
Footballguy
Well, atleast their not crushing him and he's had a most part incident free off-season
franchise punter
Footballguy
So much for those huge hands
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
Faust
MVP
Johnny Manziel seeking victory in overcoming 'Johnny Football'
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/post/_/id/84877/johnny-manziel-seeking-victory-in-overcoming-johnny-football
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/post/_/id/84877/johnny-manziel-seeking-victory-in-overcoming-johnny-football
That will never go away if he has any success.Faust said:
The second article there- I've heard a lot of talk about that practice. I expect it will be discussed a bunch in the boring weeks til camp opens. He WAS Johnny Football and they did call plays where he rolled out and ran around a bit. The throw to Smith was excellent enough that there were a bunch of tweets about it. My guess is muffing those shotgun snaps forced him to adlib and be himself. It must have gone well since after the muffs they started calling those rollouts and swing passes and it's been Johnny and McCown running a typical stay in pocket O all this time before that.
Maybe that's all he's got. Maybe 3 years from now someone will say "this one practice..." but those muffed shotgun snaps could have flipped the switch for the Browns and Johnny. We'll see, we'll see
pantherclub
Footballguy
Pretty sure he would get straight cut if he cannot win the #2 job in training camp coming up.
That previous point where Grossi was real negative and the other Browns reporters weren't. I'm not sure how to take him re Manziel. He's a long time good reporter, but he seems like the unusual team writer that might be a hater of one player. It's unusual for one reporter to have such a differing view than the others
