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Official Johnny Manziel Thread - participates in Fan Controlled Football: 'Feels like I'm super washed up'


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Ken Stabler was a partying legend, at Bama and in the pros. Manziel is probably as talented as Stabler was (Stabler was underrated imo). The difference, and its a huge one is that Stabler dealt with a 1960s/70s sports media which is hardly the pressure cooker that today's media is. Has Manziel dealt with today's media? Hardly. He goes to a hick college in Texas where the local media treat him like a king and if that isn't cloistered enough, he takes online courses so he doesn't even have to interact with his peon classmates. He has no idea what it's going to be like when he throws a game losing interception and will deal with national NFL writers beating him down. A more talented Ryan Leaf just means a more delayed meltdown.

Manziel has been pretty well blasted by the media already. You can say he hasn't "dealt" with it well but it's never bothered him or affected his play. If anything, he seems to have the personality to just shrug off bad press, which he already did early this year.

That was an hors d'oeuvres. I'll be happy to take the speculation about how he handles the NFL media back when he gets to the veal.

He'll be under a microscope, which may not feel that much different than college. The only NFL media that might be as tough as all that is Boston and New York, and looks like he won't be in either place.

Media scrutiny is a weird thing to bring up, only because this kid might be as unfazed by it as any college kid since Tebow.

They don't even have microscopes at Texas A&M.

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RIP

His argument is pretty ridiculous, but there's really no reason to bring up Ferguson or the I can't breathe protests in response. Pretty poor taste here guys.

Here's what I don't get. He's never played in an offense which required him to take snaps from center, make anything beyond an initial read before taking off, throwing a ton of 50/50 balls on most everything he tries to heave down the field (thank goodness for Mike Evans most plays) he doesn't have ideal arm strength, size or mechanics yet people are acting like he's deserving of top 5 pick status. I guess I'm really missing the boat here with him.

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Starting to have a Tim Tebow going 1st round type of over draft / bad impact feel to it.

If he goes really high...to a bad bad team (Jax)...he gets the double whammy of being tossed in there right away and having all eyes on him and I just don't know how he can possibly perform at the NFL level over a long period of time with his game.

RG III was widely considered to be a VERY inteligient player coming into the league. One that would understand how to not take the punishment he would get at the next level and that would allow him to do those magical mobility things. But its killed him. Can Manziel take a page from the Russell Wilson book instead?

I hope I'm wrong but I have much more of a Jeff George/Ryan Leaf vibe to this than a Russell Wilson vibe. He just seems to me to be one of those players who was SO big in college and demonstrates the lack of maturity enough to where he falls into that "I'll show them. I'll do it here despite what people are cautioning me about." And if he does that, he's Not For Long. Wilson would never survive in this league if he took the punishment RG III has and Manziel won't either and I just don't trust he's able to put it together from the neck up.

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Mike Vick? Brett Favre? Where do people come up with these ridiculous comparisons. He doesn't have anywhere near the arm strength or running ability of Vick. Favre had a much better arm than Manziel could possibly hope to have. Even the Russell Wilson comparison is a joke. Wilson had tremendous success as a pocket passer on two separate programs and even considering his lack of height. The only comparison which made even a modicum of sense is the Doug Flutie comparison.

I'm not the only one who compared him to Vick

Auburn defensive coordinator Ellis Johnson has been coaching for 38 years and has done so at four SEC schools, not counting a brief stopover at Arkansas. Of the quarterbacks he has coached against, there are only two he would put in the same class as Manziel: Cam Newton and Michael Vick.

"I've coached against a lot of great ones -- Brett Favre, Tom Brady, both Mannings, Donovan McNabb, Russell Wilson, Tajh Boyd, Aaron Murray, AJ McCarron, and I hope I didn't leave anybody out," Johnson said. "But when you start talking about somebody who athletically and individually can just step out there and beat you, Manziel's right up there in the top three, in my opinion, along with Newton and Vick.

"Now, those three are all different style quarterbacks than Favre, Manning and some of those other guys. But they're three you just don't have a lot of answers for because they can do so many things."

For the record, if Johnson had to choose one of the three he would least like to go against, it would be Newton.

"I can say that now because I know Manziel ain't coming back," Johnson said laughing. "Cam was everything Manziel was at about 250 pounds. There was no stopping Cam on third down. It just didn't happen."

Pound for pound, though, Johnson said Manziel might be as tough a quarterback as he has coached against after seeing the way Manziel gutted it out last month in Auburn's 45-41 win at Texas A&M.

"We separated his shoulder, and he could have canned it," Johnson said. "But he went in, got shot, came back out there and threw a back-shoulder fade to get them down there for another score. We beat that boy to death physically, but he wasn't about to stay down.

"He's something. He really is, and he's also a lot smarter than people think he is."

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/10016263/for-season-last-two-games-enjoy-unique-talents-johnny-manziel

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My two cents is that he'll be a more accurate Mike Vick.

He'll make highlight plays that start out with people saying "No,no,no" and end with "Wow".

But his style of play will invite too many hits and you better plan on having a quality backup that can start 2-4 games a year in his place.

But that's just it. If Mike Vick was more accurate he wouldn't have to take off as much and would get hit less.

Not sure I agree. His college comp pct was much higher and Manziel got hit a ton. Part of the reason for the comp pct is he runs around so much is waiting for recvers,

He won't throw the ball away.

He's just constantly lookign for the big play like the young Mike Vick was.

Valid.

Look, his likelihood of success isn't the same for every potential spot in which he could land. There are a lot of "ifs and buts" that come into play in regards to which coach he plays for and the talent around him.

I would say if he goes to Cleveland and his coach is McDaniels then its a recipe for disaster as I don't think he'd listen to Josh even though the Browns have some talent. He'd probably be the loose cannon you're talking about.

But if he goes to the Vikings who are coached by Zimmer and another seasoned OC, then I think the chances of long term success are greatly improved. I actually think Gus Bradley in Jacksonville would be a good fit for him too.

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Here's what I don't get. He's never played in an offense which required him to take snaps from center, make anything beyond an initial read before taking off, throwing a ton of 50/50 balls on most everything he tries to heave down the field (thank goodness for Mike Evans most plays) he doesn't have ideal arm strength, size or mechanics yet people are acting like he's deserving of top 5 pick status. I guess I'm really missing the boat here with him.

Exactly. Your post is a Coache's list of "Crap that will get me fired and make me pull my hair out".

NFL teams don't tolerate any of these things, much less ALL of these things unless you step on that field day one and blow magic out your ####. Even in NYC, where Eli has won 2 Super Bowls and is, by all accounts, a HOF'er, he and his coaches faced non-stop criticism for all those 50/50 balls and poor reads. And Johnny Football is going to add all the other stuff to it? There are probably about 4-5 coaches that can/will be able to tolerate that type of game play week in and week out. It is just too difficult to buy into. THey want control....CONTROL...over everything and his style of play is the antithesis to that.

Like I said, if he is Favre 2.0 and all that goofy crap produces magic every week, he gets the pass. But if he does all that and his results are Blaine Gabbert-ish...nope.

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Here's what I don't get. He's never played in an offense which required him to take snaps from center, make anything beyond an initial read before taking off, throwing a ton of 50/50 balls on most everything he tries to heave down the field (thank goodness for Mike Evans most plays) he doesn't have ideal arm strength, size or mechanics yet people are acting like he's deserving of top 5 pick status. I guess I'm really missing the boat here with him.

Yeah, it's like you're watching a completely different guy. :shrug;

The NFL is turning into a spread offense league. I wish I had a stat that showed how much guys like Brady, Manning, Kaepernick, and the like are in The Gun. I'm betting it's huge.

You also seem to think Evans is the only guy he's chucking it up and praying will catch it. The Aggies had four guys with 50+ catches and Evans only led the team in catches by 9 over the #2 guy.

As far as "ideal" arm strength...so what? There's guys with cannons that don't make it (Jeff George) and guys with sufficient strength that do (Montana, Brady). His arm is strong enough.

Boy is this going to be a tiresome debate for the next four months.

Edited by Andy Dufresne
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Here's what I don't get. He's never played in an offense which required him to take snaps from center, make anything beyond an initial read before taking off, throwing a ton of 50/50 balls on most everything he tries to heave down the field (thank goodness for Mike Evans most plays) he doesn't have ideal arm strength, size or mechanics yet people are acting like he's deserving of top 5 pick status. I guess I'm really missing the boat here with him.

Yeah, it's like you're watching a completely different guy. :shrug;

The NFL is turning into a spread offense league. I wish I had a stat that showed how much guys like Brady, Manning, Kaepernick, and the like are in The Gun. I'm betting it's huge.

You also seem to think Evans is the only guy he's chucking it up and praying will catch it. The Aggies had four guys with 50+ catches and Evans only led the team in catches by 9 over the #2 guy.

As far as "ideal" arm strength...so what? There's guys with cannons that don't make it (Jeff George) and guys with sufficient strength that do (Montana, Brady). His arm is strong enough.

Boy is this going to be a tiresome debate for the next four months.

Yes, if he had even close to Montana or Brady's head.

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Here's what I don't get. He's never played in an offense which required him to take snaps from center, make anything beyond an initial read before taking off, throwing a ton of 50/50 balls on most everything he tries to heave down the field (thank goodness for Mike Evans most plays) he doesn't have ideal arm strength, size or mechanics yet people are acting like he's deserving of top 5 pick status. I guess I'm really missing the boat here with him.

Yeah, it's like you're watching a completely different guy. :shrug;

The NFL is turning into a spread offense league. I wish I had a stat that showed how much guys like Brady, Manning, Kaepernick, and the like are in The Gun. I'm betting it's huge.

You also seem to think Evans is the only guy he's chucking it up and praying will catch it. The Aggies had four guys with 50+ catches and Evans only led the team in catches by 9 over the #2 guy.

As far as "ideal" arm strength...so what? There's guys with cannons that don't make it (Jeff George) and guys with sufficient strength that do (Montana, Brady). His arm is strong enough.

Boy is this going to be a tiresome debate for the next four months.

It's not that he doesn't have a cannon, but if you look at the guys like Brees or Wilson who have less than ideal height who have had success, they both played in pro style systems in college and both had above average arms. You say Manziel's is strong enough. That is by no means a given. We'll get a better look if he decides to throw at the combine. Most of his throws are of the shorter variety. I'm mostly referring to the plays where it breaks down and he's outside the pocket and trying to throw it more than 20 yards down the field. It sure looks to me like its an extra effort for him to heave it down there. Maybe we are seeing something very different.

Edited by Area51Inhabitant
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Yes, if he had even close to Montana or Brady's head.

I think he's just as football smart as each of those guys.

It gets obscured because he's such a richard.

Returning to talking about taking snaps from under center. The same thing was said about Cam Newton. But here's a snipped from an older ESPN article:

"In 1995, three full years before Peyton Manning was taken with the No. 1 overall pick, the number of NFL pass plays based out of the shotgun formation was at 6.9 percent. It's part of the reason Manning made more sense than Ryan Leaf at No. 1. He took the bulk of his snaps under center at Tennessee, whereas Leaf worked out of a shotgun spread that often utilized four wideouts. Last year, among quarterbacks that threw at least 150 passes, many of the league's elite threw a great percentage from the gun. Start with Manning, who threw a remarkable 74.5 percent of his passes from the shotgun in 2010. Aaron Rodgers was also higher than Roethlisberger at 66.1 percent. Tom Brady is at 62.8 percent. Name a top quarterback, and he was often passing from the gun. In 2010, 37.5 percent of all NFL throws, period, were from the shotgun. Not just third down -- all throws."

% of throws from the shotgun last year...

Shaun Hill - 87.6%

Peyton Manning - 74.5%

Kyle Orton - 67.3%

Aaron Rogers - 66.1%

Even Ben Roethlisberger and Tom Brady where in the shotgun over 62% of the time.

So the game is more and more suited to a style like Manziel brings to the table.

Edit: I just read another stat that said in '12-'13 Peyton attempted 80.3% of his passes from the shotgun.

Edited by Andy Dufresne
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Here we go.


The biggest change in the way NFL offenses work is illustrated by the rise of the shotgun snap.

How can you spread the field with three, four or five wide receivers without leaving the quarterback out to dry? Let him take the pass from a shotgun snap, with a clear view of the defense and plenty of space between him and hungry defensive linemen.

With an assist from Football Outsiders' Premium Database (subscription required), we can see the change in shotgun use since 2003:

The difference is stunning. In 2003, the New York Jets, Oakland Raiders and Tampa Bay Buccaneers took zero snaps from shotgun, and five other teams used it less than 5 percent of the time.

That's unthinkable in today's NFL, where the Houston Texans' 21.6 percent shotgun rate was the smallest in the league. Almost every other team is approaching or above 40 percent, and the Detroit Lions used shotgun 71.3 percent of the time.

Every NFL team made the shotgun a huge part of their base offense, largely because they're much better (and more consistent) at it. Look at the average yards per play gained by NFL teams in the shotgun compared to under center, both 10 years ago and last season:

While a few teams, like the Baltimore Ravens, used shotgun very sparingly and to great effect, many NFL teams were much worse when running out of the gun. In 2012, only the New York Jets and Washington Redskins were less effective from shotgun than under center, and only just.

Across the board, NFL teams are all using the shotgun frequently—and almost all of them are significantly more effective when they do.

Edited by Andy Dufresne
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Here's what I don't get. He's never played in an offense which required him to take snaps from center, make anything beyond an initial read before taking off, throwing a ton of 50/50 balls on most everything he tries to heave down the field (thank goodness for Mike Evans most plays) he doesn't have ideal arm strength, size or mechanics yet people are acting like he's deserving of top 5 pick status. I guess I'm really missing the boat here with him.

Yeah, it's like you're watching a completely different guy. :shrug;

The NFL is turning into a spread offense league. I wish I had a stat that showed how much guys like Brady, Manning, Kaepernick, and the like are in The Gun. I'm betting it's huge.

You also seem to think Evans is the only guy he's chucking it up and praying will catch it. The Aggies had four guys with 50+ catches and Evans only led the team in catches by 9 over the #2 guy.

As far as "ideal" arm strength...so what? There's guys with cannons that don't make it (Jeff George) and guys with sufficient strength that do (Montana, Brady). His arm is strong enough.

Boy is this going to be a tiresome debate for the next four months.

Yes, if he had even close to Montana or Brady's head.

True, Johnny Football doesnt strike me as a immerse yourself in film study kind of guy.

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He's so young you don't exactly know what kind of work ethic he's going to employ in the NFL. It is important for him to get connected with the right coach and mentor early. My feeling on him is he has some of the intangibles it takes to be a successful QB but he is nowhere close to lead a NFL team. He would be a turnover machine and wreck his mind if he were thrown in as the QB in say JAX.

I don't know, I wouldn't reach for him. I too think this feels like a Tebow thing with all the hype. His mechanics are not as bad as Tebow's but anyone who drafts him can't expect immediate success on the field from him. If you draft him 1st round for that, I feel like it'll be a failure.

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He's so young you don't exactly know what kind of work ethic he's going to employ in the NFL. It is important for him to get connected with the right coach and mentor early. My feeling on him is he has some of the intangibles it takes to be a successful QB but he is nowhere close to lead a NFL team. He would be a turnover machine and wreck his mind if he were thrown in as the QB in say JAX.

I don't know, I wouldn't reach for him. I too think this feels like a Tebow thing with all the hype. His mechanics are not as bad as Tebow's but anyone who drafts him can't expect immediate success on the field from him. If you draft him 1st round for that, I feel like it'll be a failure.

Don't know why you're targeting the Jags so much this afternoon, but why would that be a terrible place for him?

Any team that drafts him in the top half of the first round is going to expect him to start by Tgiving at latest.

There are ZERO expectations of winning right away, completely different than what say, geno Smith walked into with Jets.

He would have a young, creative OC with college experience and now a year of pro experience.

He would be surrounded by a young HC and a young team that is looking for an offensive leader.

Jags have an owner and a GM committed to a total rebuild. And they recognize that the offensive line is one of their priorities.

He would have decent weapons in Shorts and Ace Sanders. Maybe, just maybe, Blackmon wakes up and smells the coffee, too.

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Here's what I don't get. He's never played in an offense which required him to take snaps from center, make anything beyond an initial read before taking off, throwing a ton of 50/50 balls on most everything he tries to heave down the field (thank goodness for Mike Evans most plays) he doesn't have ideal arm strength, size or mechanics yet people are acting like he's deserving of top 5 pick status. I guess I'm really missing the boat here with him.

Yeah, it's like you're watching a completely different guy. :shrug;

The NFL is turning into a spread offense league. I wish I had a stat that showed how much guys like Brady, Manning, Kaepernick, and the like are in The Gun. I'm betting it's huge.

You also seem to think Evans is the only guy he's chucking it up and praying will catch it. The Aggies had four guys with 50+ catches and Evans only led the team in catches by 9 over the #2 guy.

As far as "ideal" arm strength...so what? There's guys with cannons that don't make it (Jeff George) and guys with sufficient strength that do (Montana, Brady). His arm is strong enough.

Boy is this going to be a tiresome debate for the next four months.

Yes, if he had even close to Montana or Brady's head.

True, Johnny Football doesnt strike me as a immerse yourself in film study kind of guy.

Are there reports out there suggesting he doesn't study film? All of the off field stuff isn't exactly endearing, but it doesn't mean he doesn't care about performing on the field. Clearly he does.

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Here's what I don't get. He's never played in an offense which required him to take snaps from center, make anything beyond an initial read before taking off, throwing a ton of 50/50 balls on most everything he tries to heave down the field (thank goodness for Mike Evans most plays) he doesn't have ideal arm strength, size or mechanics yet people are acting like he's deserving of top 5 pick status. I guess I'm really missing the boat here with him.

Yeah, it's like you're watching a completely different guy. :shrug;

The NFL is turning into a spread offense league. I wish I had a stat that showed how much guys like Brady, Manning, Kaepernick, and the like are in The Gun. I'm betting it's huge.

You also seem to think Evans is the only guy he's chucking it up and praying will catch it. The Aggies had four guys with 50+ catches and Evans only led the team in catches by 9 over the #2 guy.

As far as "ideal" arm strength...so what? There's guys with cannons that don't make it (Jeff George) and guys with sufficient strength that do (Montana, Brady). His arm is strong enough.

Boy is this going to be a tiresome debate for the next four months.

It's not that he doesn't have a cannon, but if you look at the guys like Brees or Wilson who have less than ideal height who have had success, they both played in pro style systems in college and both had above average arms. You say Manziel's is strong enough. That is by no means a given. We'll get a better look if he decides to throw at the combine. Most of his throws are of the shorter variety. I'm mostly referring to the plays where it breaks down and he's outside the pocket and trying to throw it more than 20 yards down the field. It sure looks to me like its an extra effort for him to heave it down there. Maybe we are seeing something very different.

George threw for 27k yards. He made it to the NFL.

I can't think of a QB that had major college success and truly didn't have the arm strength to succeed at the NFL level. I've heard the phrase 1000 times, but has it ever happened? Chad Pennington had a whole career while people said that.

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He's so young you don't exactly know what kind of work ethic he's going to employ in the NFL. It is important for him to get connected with the right coach and mentor early. My feeling on him is he has some of the intangibles it takes to be a successful QB but he is nowhere close to lead a NFL team. He would be a turnover machine and wreck his mind if he were thrown in as the QB in say JAX.

I don't know, I wouldn't reach for him. I too think this feels like a Tebow thing with all the hype. His mechanics are not as bad as Tebow's but anyone who drafts him can't expect immediate success on the field from him. If you draft him 1st round for that, I feel like it'll be a failure.

Don't know why you're targeting the Jags so much this afternoon, but why would that be a terrible place for him?

Any team that drafts him in the top half of the first round is going to expect him to start by Tgiving at latest.

There are ZERO expectations of winning right away, completely different than what say, geno Smith walked into with Jets.

He would have a young, creative OC with college experience and now a year of pro experience.

He would be surrounded by a young HC and a young team that is looking for an offensive leader.

Jags have an owner and a GM committed to a total rebuild. And they recognize that the offensive line is one of their priorities.

He would have decent weapons in Shorts and Ace Sanders. Maybe, just maybe, Blackmon wakes up and smells the coffee, too.

:goodposting: Edited by Mr. Brownstone
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Wuerffel? Torretta? Just asking if they fit that description...

I can't remember Gino playing. Around the time of Mark McGwire's brother...I don't know can't remember.

Weurffel might fit. Thanks, nice to have a name for a change

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I don't know, I wouldn't reach for him. I too think this feels like a Tebow thing with all the hype. His mechanics are not as bad as Tebow's but anyone who drafts him can't expect immediate success on the field from him. If you draft him 1st round for that, I feel like it'll be a failure.

I could see him having success as a rookie doing things that he maybe won't be doing if he becomes a franchise QB.

I could easily see him running around and winning games next year. Will he develop the NFL QB skills and not rely on his broken play skills?

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Rotoworld:

Texas A&M redshirt sophomore QB Johnny Manziel received a first-round projection from the NFL Draft Advisory Board.

It is not a surprise, but the advisory committee is usually very conservative with their grades. Manziel appears to be headed towards a top-10 selection in May, and will draw crowds when he speaks at the Combine and works out at the Aggies' pro day.
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Manziel opts for NFL, says he's 'ready to make my dream a reality'

Bruce Feldman

After two spectacular seasons, Johnny Manziel is leaving college to enter the NFL draft, the Texas A&M QB told CBS Wednesday.

"After long discussions with my family, friends, teammates, and coaches, I have decided to make myself available for the 2014 NFL Draft," Manziel said. "The decision was such a tough one for me because of how much I wanted to go back and be with all those guys that I love playing with, and to work with Coach (Kevin) Sumlin and Coach (Jake Spavital) Spav and be part of a program that's continuing to grow. But I felt like this is what's best for me now.

"I feel very relieved. It's a weight off my shoulders. I'm ready to become a professional and dedicate myself to making my dream a reality of becoming the best quarterback I can be."

The 21-year-old Manziel is projected by most NFL Draft observers to be a first-round pick and potentially a Top 5 selection with several franchises with big needs at quarterback near the top of the draft (Texans, Jaguars, Browns, Raiders and Vikings).

The mercurial QB led Texas A&M to 20 wins in his two seasons as the Aggies starting QB, and in 2012, he became the first freshman to ever win the Heisman Trophy, while setting the SEC single-season total offense record when he accounted for 5,116 yards.

This fall, there was no "sophomore jinx" for Manziel, who showed improved accuracy and arm strength while opting to run less. His completion percentage improved from 68 percent to 70 percent while his yards per attempt also jumped from 8.54 to 9.59. He finished his A&M career with 93 career TDs and just 22 INTs even though he played in the nation's toughest conference. Manziel's most impressive performance may have come last September in the supposed Game of the Year, where many claimed Nick Saban, with 10 months of prep time would be ready with answers after the dynamic QB sparked an upset Bama in Tuscaloosa. This time around, the Tide beat the Aggies, but Manziel's amassed a whopping 562 yards of offense, 464 through the air and 98 on the ground as his team rolled up 628 yards, the most the Crimson Tide had surrendered in more than 100 years.

Manziel's ability to make plays off-script is one of the things that make him such a rare talent -- and also a big box office draw. His free-wheeling style and penchant for extending plays has coaches saying it's as good as they've ever seen. One long-time former NFL coordinator told CBS last month Manziel should be the first pick of the draft.

Manziel's size -- 6-0, 203 pounds -- will give some NFL personnel folks some concern as will his well-chronicled social life, but his competitiveness and ability to thrive under pressure are off the charts. Aggies football coaches also rave about his football smarts and his ability to see -- or hear -- something one time and grasp it.

Manziel plans on re-locating to San Diego for the next few months to train with private quarterbacks coach George Whitfield to get ready for the NFL Combine and personal workouts with teams.

Edited by Faust
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Mike Vick? Brett Favre? Where do people come up with these ridiculous comparisons. He doesn't have anywhere near the arm strength or running ability of Vick. Favre had a much better arm than Manziel could possibly hope to have. Even the Russell Wilson comparison is a joke. Wilson had tremendous success as a pocket passer on two separate programs and even considering his lack of height. The only comparison which made even a modicum of sense is the Doug Flutie comparison.

I'm not the only one who compared him to Vick

Auburn defensive coordinator Ellis Johnson has been coaching for 38 years and has done so at four SEC schools, not counting a brief stopover at Arkansas. Of the quarterbacks he has coached against, there are only two he would put in the same class as Manziel: Cam Newton and Michael Vick.

"I've coached against a lot of great ones -- Brett Favre, Tom Brady, both Mannings, Donovan McNabb, Russell Wilson, Tajh Boyd, Aaron Murray, AJ McCarron, and I hope I didn't leave anybody out," Johnson said. "But when you start talking about somebody who athletically and individually can just step out there and beat you, Manziel's right up there in the top three, in my opinion, along with Newton and Vick.

"Now, those three are all different style quarterbacks than Favre, Manning and some of those other guys. But they're three you just don't have a lot of answers for because they can do so many things."

For the record, if Johnson had to choose one of the three he would least like to go against, it would be Newton.

"I can say that now because I know Manziel ain't coming back," Johnson said laughing. "Cam was everything Manziel was at about 250 pounds. There was no stopping Cam on third down. It just didn't happen."

Pound for pound, though, Johnson said Manziel might be as tough a quarterback as he has coached against after seeing the way Manziel gutted it out last month in Auburn's 45-41 win at Texas A&M.

"We separated his shoulder, and he could have canned it," Johnson said. "But he went in, got shot, came back out there and threw a back-shoulder fade to get them down there for another score. We beat that boy to death physically, but he wasn't about to stay down.

"He's something. He really is, and he's also a lot smarter than people think he is."

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/10016263/for-season-last-two-games-enjoy-unique-talents-johnny-manziel

Great post. 38 yrs of coaching = ownage of message board wannabe haters.
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Yes but it also brings up a concern....the part where he says they beat him to death. Cam is much better suited to withstanding that punishment. I worry that it will take its toll on Manziel in the pros. His style and smaller stature combined is troubling, and NFL coordinators will no doubt plan to beat on him the same way.

Edited by Houston turmOiler
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Alluded to in the last sentence of the Bruce "Freak List" Feldman article Faust's linked above (#429). Could be a case of getting gussied up by his handlers for NFL personnel execs and decision makers during the draft process, but I thought the following was interesting... that QB guru Whitfield tutored the last two QBs taken #1 overall (Cam Newton and Andrew Luck). I wonder if Bridgewater or Bortles will be working with him, too. I know a lot of the top prospects go to perfomance institutes led by former athletes, for specialized training in the Combine drills and tests.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/01/08/manziel-will-spend-next-few-months-training-with-qb-guru/

Manziel will spend next few months training with QB guru

Posted by Michael David Smith on January 8, 2014, 4:22 PM EST AP

Texas A&M quarterback Johnny Manziel, who stated the obvious today when he announced that he is entering the 2014 NFL draft, plans to spend the next few months training with a quarterback guru who has tutored the last two passers taken with the first overall pick in the draft.

Bruce Feldman of CBS reports that Manziel plans to move to San Diego for the next few months to train with private quarterbacks coach George Whitfield, who will help Manziel prepare for the NFL Scouting Combine and private workouts with NFL teams.

Whitfield has a good track record: He worked with Andrew Luck before the 2012 draft and with Cam Newton before the 2011 draft. Luck was already so polished as a pocket passer in college that Whitfield’s influence probably didn’t do much to change perceptions of him among NFL teams, but Whitfield was credited with helping Newton show he could make all the throws that NFL teams want to see their quarterbacks make. Manziel, like Newton, is a mobile quarterback who hasn’t played in a pro-style offense (although the definition of “pro-style offense” is rapidly changing), and Whitfield may be able to help Manziel demonstrate that he can be a pocket passer if that’s what the team that drafts him wants him to be.

Manziel told Feldman, “I’m ready to become a professional and dedicate myself to making my dream a reality of becoming the best quarterback I can be.” Part of that dedication will be a few months of work with Whitfield.

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QBs rarely change their mechanics much from college to the NFL. Manziel worked with Whitfield last year. He still has the same mechanical flaws.

The only successful QB I can think of who has made a significant change in his throwing motion is Aaron Rodgers.

At Cal, Rodgers used to hold the ball high with the ball horizontal: http://archive.dailycal.org/photos/111648-105965-06.29.football.Deng-KaiChen-03.jpg

He now holds it by his chest with the ball more vertical: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6r1X0fFjYiE/TpuC_rZXuxI/AAAAAAAAACc/NHqn8zb1ads/s1600/aaron-rodgers.jpg

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Tebow's mechanical flaws proved too catastrophically bad. Retraining muscle memory and trying to rewire your nervous system away from habits formed over in some cases close to half their lives is no joke and not a trivial matter. For most, it is insurmountable.

In Manziel's case, I alluded to the cynical view that at least it looks good to let NFL-types know he is serious about working to improve. More substantively, are there cases where a QB can tweak or make minor modifications, if so, every edge could be worthwhile. What are his most severe mechanical defects and flaws, and do you think they are deal breakers that will prove to prevent him from succeeding at the next level?

Sometimes I think mechanical flaws, if not the death blow kind like Tebow had, can be overblown. To me, Philip Rivers is one of the poster boys for getting good results despite substandard mechanics you would never draw up in a textbook. He has that three quarters motion, but the bottom line, he delivers the ball accurately. He has a relatively efficient delivery and quick release (doesn't wind up ala Leftwich, another example of mechanics that were a severe impediment to NFL success). A couple other factors worth noting, having a consistent release POINT, even with a sub-optimal three quarter delivery, could translate to better accuracy than an ostensibly more textbook over the top motion but with a fluctuating and inconsistent release point. An exception here, and I think it can be a positive attribute, and one that has been mentioned in the context of Manziel, is having the ability to alter delivery points WHEN APPROPRIATE (for instance, having the presence of mind and quick reflexes to fit the ball between or around converging, leaping defenders). Lastly, and I don't think they fall under the umbrella of mechanics, but key traits/attribute for greatness in QBs include having the combination of spatial awareness and TIMING to deliver the ball to a MOVING target in between defenders. These seem to be innate. Like Mayock would say, you wake up in the morning or get off the bus with them, or you don't.

Does Manziel have them? To me, one of the most continually fascinating things about football is that countless people can look at the same film, and see such drastically different things (which is I guess a lesson in the fact that perceptually we are bombarded by thousands of things, but it is hard to attend to more than a few in real time - there is a reason the phone company settled on a number as small as seven for the strings of digits used as phone numbers, not including area code prefixes, and not dozens). It is also interesting, that nobody really knows for sure whether he will make it in the NFL or not. We were pretty sure in the Olympics Usain Bolt and Michael Phelps would win their respective races. But those are individual sports. Team sports are vastly more complex because of the many possible interactions and interrelations. Also, in the transition from college to pro, just the step up in size, strength, speed, athleticism, talent, smarts, etc. in defenders is the difference between a great college QB like Matt Leinart or Vince Young and failures in the NFL. The fact that some criticize Manziel and say that he was an undisciplined street ball artist bailed out by a freaky jump ball specialist in Evans, and others have a wildly divergent view that his game is reminiscent of Joe Montana, is evidence of this phenomena that nobody really knows due the complexity of football, and the skill chasm gauntlet from college to pro can be such an abyss of indeterminacy.

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This is an interesting thread I've enjoyed reading. Thanks to everyone for the input. My entry level thoughts I wanted to add:

One, Johnny Football is a polarizing figure if nothing else. He sure brings out a reaction from people one way or the other.

Two, we need to wait for the combine and pro day to solidify our pre-draft evaluations.

That said, I'm leaning toward hanging with the anti-JF crowd. Not sold that he's a can't miss franchise QB, but am open to changing my mind. Certainly could be great if put in the right situation. But you could say that about a ton of other QB's.

First, lets get around the off-field ######tery, which if we are being fair, he put behind him after the taunting incident and getting benched. Since then, he's been a model citizen. Still, the media will play up his bad behavior because that's what sells airtime, and the ultimate storyline.

Young kid, poor mechanics as a freshman despite winning the heisman. Improved a lot the next season. Seems willing to learn, and able to learn. Has the on-field intangibles to make plays out of nothing, ala Russell Wilson. The height isn't a concern as much as it used to be nor is the cannon arm. We see good examples of guys like Wilson and Brees overcome those obstacles.

In college, he had to throw over college D-lineman who lets just say some of them could get their hands up and time the pass for the bat down maneuver. In the pros, the D-lineman are all giants and all well versed in the bat down technique. Guys like Wilson and Brees have mastered darting the ball thru defenders and finding throwing lanes. Manziel will have to learn and it will take some time.

Also JF had the luxury of maybe the best WR and OL in the draft. He's had some talent around him. I think he can make plays in the NFL, but if ends up in a talent depleted roster at the skill positions, he'll have a tough go of it. I don't want him for my Raiders for instance. But in a team like say the Texans, he'd have the weapons around him make plays to bail him out.

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Leinart is a good example....

I don't see that comparison at all. Manziel created offensive success during many plays where Leinart would have been sacked.

I think Manziel will surprise many in the NFL and will have success. Time will tell I guess.

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Leinart is a good example....

I don't see that comparison at all. Manziel created offensive success during many plays where Leinart would have been sacked.

I think Manziel will surprise many in the NFL and will have success. Time will tell I guess.

The debate was what college qbs had good college careers but failed in the pros due to a weak arm. Thats where his name came out.

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This is an interesting thread I've enjoyed reading. Thanks to everyone for the input. My entry level thoughts I wanted to add:

One, Johnny Football is a polarizing figure if nothing else. He sure brings out a reaction from people one way or the other.

Two, we need to wait for the combine and pro day to solidify our pre-draft evaluations.

That said, I'm leaning toward hanging with the anti-JF crowd. Not sold that he's a can't miss franchise QB, but am open to changing my mind. Certainly could be great if put in the right situation. But you could say that about a ton of other QB's.

First, lets get around the off-field ######tery, which if we are being fair, he put behind him after the taunting incident and getting benched. Since then, he's been a model citizen. Still, the media will play up his bad behavior because that's what sells airtime, and the ultimate storyline.

Young kid, poor mechanics as a freshman despite winning the heisman. Improved a lot the next season. Seems willing to learn, and able to learn. Has the on-field intangibles to make plays out of nothing, ala Russell Wilson. The height isn't a concern as much as it used to be nor is the cannon arm. We see good examples of guys like Wilson and Brees overcome those obstacles.

In college, he had to throw over college D-lineman who lets just say some of them could get their hands up and time the pass for the bat down maneuver. In the pros, the D-lineman are all giants and all well versed in the bat down technique. Guys like Wilson and Brees have mastered darting the ball thru defenders and finding throwing lanes. Manziel will have to learn and it will take some time.

Also JF had the luxury of maybe the best WR and OL in the draft. He's had some talent around him. I think he can make plays in the NFL, but if ends up in a talent depleted roster at the skill positions, he'll have a tough go of it. I don't want him for my Raiders for instance. But in a team like say the Texans, he'd have the weapons around him make plays to bail him out.

NFL D-Line men come from Mars?

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Here's what I don't get. He's never played in an offense which required him to take snaps from center, make anything beyond an initial read before taking off, throwing a ton of 50/50 balls on most everything he tries to heave down the field (thank goodness for Mike Evans most plays) he doesn't have ideal arm strength, size or mechanics yet people are acting like he's deserving of top 5 pick status. I guess I'm really missing the boat here with him.

Yeah, it's like you're watching a completely different guy. :shrug;

The NFL is turning into a spread offense league. I wish I had a stat that showed how much guys like Brady, Manning, Kaepernick, and the like are in The Gun. I'm betting it's huge.

You also seem to think Evans is the only guy he's chucking it up and praying will catch it. The Aggies had four guys with 50+ catches and Evans only led the team in catches by 9 over the #2 guy.

As far as "ideal" arm strength...so what? There's guys with cannons that don't make it (Jeff George) and guys with sufficient strength that do (Montana, Brady). His arm is strong enough.

Boy is this going to be a tiresome debate for the next four months.

Yes, if he had even close to Montana or Brady's head.

True, Johnny Football doesnt strike me as a immerse yourself in film study kind of guy.

Are there reports out there suggesting he doesn't study film? All of the off field stuff isn't exactly endearing, but it doesn't mean he doesn't care about performing on the field. Clearly he does.

...or that Montana and Brady immersed themselves in film study while at Notre Dame and Michigan, respectively. Let's not forget neither one of those guys were highly regarded prospects. While I don't doubt that they were serious about the game, they were certainly late blomers in many respects.

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who knows he is a gamer and he runs around and can make some crazy moves and hey can throw the ball take that to the bank so i like watching him and i hope that he comes in and kicks butt and everyone on here who is being a jackapple about him has to say hey you know what i was wrong and he is really fun to watch and is a good player and kicks butt take the to the bank brohans and remember do not be a jackapple just be a nice guy bam right there brohans

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Manziel will be selected by MIN (1.8) at the latest, possibly a lot higher. Take that to the bank, brohans.

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right on bob but i have to say that i do not want him to play for the queens honest i just do not want someone i like on that team take that to the bank brochacho

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Would LOVE to have him fall to the Vikings at 8.. The offense would cause migraines for defensive coordinators..

Peterson + Patterson + Manziel = :excited:

But, unless he really stinks it up at the combines, he won't last to pick #8 and the Vikes will probably draft Carr. :kicksrock:

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Here's what I don't get. He's never played in an offense which required him to take snaps from center, make anything beyond an initial read before taking off, throwing a ton of 50/50 balls on most everything he tries to heave down the field (thank goodness for Mike Evans most plays) he doesn't have ideal arm strength, size or mechanics yet people are acting like he's deserving of top 5 pick status. I guess I'm really missing the boat here with him.

Yeah, it's like you're watching a completely different guy. :shrug;

The NFL is turning into a spread offense league. I wish I had a stat that showed how much guys like Brady, Manning, Kaepernick, and the like are in The Gun. I'm betting it's huge.

You also seem to think Evans is the only guy he's chucking it up and praying will catch it. The Aggies had four guys with 50+ catches and Evans only led the team in catches by 9 over the #2 guy.

As far as "ideal" arm strength...so what? There's guys with cannons that don't make it (Jeff George) and guys with sufficient strength that do (Montana, Brady). His arm is strong enough.

Boy is this going to be a tiresome debate for the next four months.

It's not that he doesn't have a cannon, but if you look at the guys like Brees or Wilson who have less than ideal height who have had success, they both played in pro style systems in college and both had above average arms. You say Manziel's is strong enough. That is by no means a given. We'll get a better look if he decides to throw at the combine. Most of his throws are of the shorter variety. I'm mostly referring to the plays where it breaks down and he's outside the pocket and trying to throw it more than 20 yards down the field. It sure looks to me like its an extra effort for him to heave it down there. Maybe we are seeing something very different.

Purdue's offense with Brees was called "basketball on grass". He was always in the shotgun. Not really pro-style.

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First, lets get around the off-field ######tery, which if we are being fair, he put behind him after the taunting incident and getting benched. Since then, he's been a model citizen. Still, the media will play up his bad behavior because that's what sells airtime, and the ultimate storyline.

Young kid, poor mechanics as a freshman despite winning the heisman. Improved a lot the next season. Seems willing to learn, and able to learn. Has the on-field intangibles to make plays out of nothing, ala Russell Wilson. The height isn't a concern as much as it used to be nor is the cannon arm. We see good examples of guys like Wilson and Brees overcome those obstacles.

Good post. You covered almost everything.

I can look past some of the off-field stuff like taunting and the autograph(I don't personally), but when he missed the Manning camp meeting that was just careless.

Wilson and Brees are short. They are also built from what I can see. JF looks like Allen Iverson.

He is not Russell Wilson as a passer. Wilson passed the ball like a pro in college by dissecting defenses all over the field. I just went through some A&M games and JF looks more like a gimmick throwing bubble screens and quick slants all game. I'm not saying he doesn't have NFL talent. It just more like a backup in the right offense like 'the pistol." Watch him vs better teams like Bama, LSU, OK and Fla in 2012, or Mizzu and he's just ok. Less TD, more INTs ect... Not gaudy numbers. That's not great if you're planning to take a risk in the 1st round knowing there's a chance he puts all the money up his nose or in his liver. If he was a 4th I wouldn't gaf. I managed the risk as much as I could there.

I don't understand why he's a consensus 1st round talent. He has character issues, passing issues and size concerns. I can see a scenario where he gets his #### together. If I had to bet a nickel, he'll flame out like Tim Tebow. I'm sure Jac, Oak or some other typically bad franchise makes this pick.

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Would LOVE to have him fall to the Vikings at 8.. The offense would cause migraines for defensive coordinators..

Peterson + Patterson + Manziel = :excited:

But, unless he really stinks it up at the combines, he won't last to pick #8 and the Vikes will probably draft Carr. :kicksrock:

not to mention Greg Jennings, and the speed limited but hulking Rudolph can be his new favorite Jump Ball Target (a Mike Evans proxy or surrogate). They also have a cornerstone LT, the most important and hardest to fill building block on the OL (some teams go years without having as good a prospect as Kalil).

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First, lets get around the off-field ######tery, which if we are being fair, he put behind him after the taunting incident and getting benched. Since then, he's been a model citizen. Still, the media will play up his bad behavior because that's what sells airtime, and the ultimate storyline.

Young kid, poor mechanics as a freshman despite winning the heisman. Improved a lot the next season. Seems willing to learn, and able to learn. Has the on-field intangibles to make plays out of nothing, ala Russell Wilson. The height isn't a concern as much as it used to be nor is the cannon arm. We see good examples of guys like Wilson and Brees overcome those obstacles.

Good post. You covered almost everything.

I can look past some of the off-field stuff like taunting and the autograph(I don't personally), but when he missed the Manning camp meeting that was just careless.

Wilson and Brees are short. They are also built from what I can see. JF looks like Allen Iverson.

He is not Russell Wilson as a passer. Wilson passed the ball like a pro in college by dissecting defenses all over the field. I just went through some A&M games and JF looks more like a gimmick throwing bubble screens and quick slants all game. I'm not saying he doesn't have NFL talent. It just more like a backup in the right offense like 'the pistol." Watch him vs better teams like Bama, LSU, OK and Fla in 2012, or Mizzu and he's just ok. Less TD, more INTs ect... Not gaudy numbers. That's not great if you're planning to take a risk in the 1st round knowing there's a chance he puts all the money up his nose or in his liver. If he was a 4th I wouldn't gaf. I managed the risk as much as I could there.

I don't understand why he's a consensus 1st round talent. He has character issues, passing issues and size concerns. I can see a scenario where he gets his #### together. If I had to bet a nickel, he'll flame out like Tim Tebow. I'm sure Jac, Oak or some other typically bad franchise makes this pick.

Good point about Manning camp, that is alarming and disturbing, I heard about it but appreciate the reminder.

Also agree, Brees isn't a great comp physique-wise (though similar height), he is about 220 lbs and well put together. Brees is also a sensational athlete and can reportedly dunk a basketball, not sure Manziel is that explosive (though he is probably faster)?

Tebow had catastrophic mechanics, so his failure likely falls (in retrospect) into the inevitable, destined, fated, doomed category. Manziel, even accounting for his issues, in fairness is a far superior pure passer, though they do have running ability in common. Tebow was generally acknowledged as a reach, nobody I recall designated him a first round lock (it was at least a mild surprise when DEN took him, and a shock to many), and some scouts graded him as a third rounder or worse. Even before Manziel's impressive bowl game and apparent recent surge up the boards, respected Dallas-based draft observer Rich Gosselin (for years he had among the most accurate mocks - he admitted he did little scouting himself, but it was due to the breadth, depth and quality of his insider network) came away after talking with NFL personnel execs and decision makers convinced that Manziel would be a top 12 pick. So whatever we may think, it seems clear front offices don't view Tebow and Manziel the same.

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First, lets get around the off-field ######tery, which if we are being fair, he put behind him after the taunting incident and getting benched. Since then, he's been a model citizen. Still, the media will play up his bad behavior because that's what sells airtime, and the ultimate storyline.

Young kid, poor mechanics as a freshman despite winning the heisman. Improved a lot the next season. Seems willing to learn, and able to learn. Has the on-field intangibles to make plays out of nothing, ala Russell Wilson. The height isn't a concern as much as it used to be nor is the cannon arm. We see good examples of guys like Wilson and Brees overcome those obstacles.

Good post. You covered almost everything.

I can look past some of the off-field stuff like taunting and the autograph(I don't personally), but when he missed the Manning camp meeting that was just careless.

Wilson and Brees are short. They are also built from what I can see. JF looks like Allen Iverson.

He is not Russell Wilson as a passer. Wilson passed the ball like a pro in college by dissecting defenses all over the field. I just went through some A&M games and JF looks more like a gimmick throwing bubble screens and quick slants all game. I'm not saying he doesn't have NFL talent. It just more like a backup in the right offense like 'the pistol." Watch him vs better teams like Bama, LSU, OK and Fla in 2012, or Mizzu and he's just ok. Less TD, more INTs ect... Not gaudy numbers. That's not great if you're planning to take a risk in the 1st round knowing there's a chance he puts all the money up his nose or in his liver. If he was a 4th I wouldn't gaf. I managed the risk as much as I could there.

I don't understand why he's a consensus 1st round talent. He has character issues, passing issues and size concerns. I can see a scenario where he gets his #### together. If I had to bet a nickel, he'll flame out like Tim Tebow. I'm sure Jac, Oak or some other typically bad franchise makes this pick.

Pretty fair scouting report here

http://www.thesidelineview.com/scouting-report/johnny-manziel

Includes highlights against Bama, Ole Miss, and Auburn

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  • Faust changed the title to Official Johnny Manziel Thread - participates in Fan Controlled Football: 'Feels like I'm super washed up'

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