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Sounds like there was no time-out...  Just run out of bounds Luke if the going gets tough!

"Carroll explained that the Seahawks thought Willson could have scored easily if the play was hit right. If he didn't, their thinking went, he could run out of bounds after picking up the first down and still leave Seattle with time to a attempt a field goal from a few yards closer than it would have been."

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1 minute ago, DropKick said:

Sounds like there was no time-out...  Just run out of bounds Luke if the going gets tough!

"Carroll explained that the Seahawks thought Willson could have scored easily if the play was hit right. If he didn't, their thinking went, he could run out of bounds after picking up the first down and still leave Seattle with time to a attempt a field goal from a few yards closer than it would have been."

There are so many levels of dumb in that explanation.

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8 minutes ago, DropKick said:

We should find out if Seattle had a time-out.  But, assuming they did, I understand your point that Carroll felt they could bust the play for a TD or, at worst, pick up a yard and settle for a FG attempt.  I get it..  Seven seconds just isn't much time.  Just take the almost certain points.  Being "too cute" has haunted Carroll in the past.

At the end of the game, when Seattle was driving for a tying FG, they were about to run a play with, I believe, seven seconds left in the game (and no TOs). It looked like they were hoping to catch Atlanta napping and run a quick out to the sideline to pick up a few more yards. Atlanta called time out, and Seattle just settled for a FG attempt (which, fittingly, came up short).

Still, can you imagine if they had run that play and something had gone wrong, causing the clock to run out? Carroll would have lost a game by 3 in which, at the end of both halves, he had a chance to kick a FG and screwed it up both times.

Edited by zftcg
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1 minute ago, zftcg said:

At the end of the game, when Seattle was driving for a tying FG, they were about to run a play with, I believe, seven seconds left in the game (and no TOs). It looked like they were hoping to catch Atlanta napping and run a quick out to the sideline to pick up a few more yards. Atlanta called time out, and Seattle just settled for a FG attempt (which, fittingly, came up short).

Still, can you imagine if they had run that play and something had gone wrong, causing the clock to run out? Carroll would have lost a game by 3 in which, at the end of both halves, he had a chance to kick a FG and screwed both cases up.

He did lose the game by 3 and the misuse of the time-outs earlier prevented then from getting closer.  The bolded is effectively true.

Also, sounds like they DID have a time-out.  Later in the article:

"The problem wasn't so much the play itself but the decision to run it in that situation. Willson has good speed for a tight end, but expecting him to get around the edge and outrun Atlanta's defense 20 yards to the end zone is ambitious. Though the Seahawks might have been thinking that, at worst, Willson would run out of bounds to stop the clock, there also was a risk that he could be tackled short of the goal line and time would expire before Seattle could call a timeout. The clock went from seven seconds at the start of the play to four when it ended, and Willson never even made it out of the backfield."

I could see then running out of clock trying to get out of bounds.  Just stupid.

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If we're piling on Carroll, challenging the Baldwin non-catch in the 4th quarter, and losing a TO in the process, needs a mention.  That was brutal.  As the announcers suggested, it was as though he got goaded into it by the fans.

Edited by davearm
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36 minutes ago, davearm said:

If we're piling on Carroll, challenging the Baldwin non-catch in the 4th quarter, and losing a TO in the process, needs a mention.  That was brutal.  As the announcers suggested, it was as though he got goaded into it by the fans.

Yeah that was horrific. 

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3 hours ago, Pip's Invitation said:

He went to Columbia and transferred to Princeton, after his father was fired as Columbia's football coach. I'm a Princeton guy so this matters to me. :)

Hmm, I remember you posting where you went to HS, since I went to the same.  With this, I could probably figure out who you are (or at least have about a 50/50 shot).

dont mean that to sound creepy, just struck me when I read that.

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I didn't see Monday's game, but I'm a little confused why Carroll is getting flayed for the fake fg.  It sounds like there was time to still kick the fg and it seems like it would be quite unexpected at that time, so maybe they get a fg.

especially since they were getting the ball in the second half.

Edited by Long Ball Larry
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3 hours ago, davearm said:

Well as I said at the outset, I'm 100% in agreement if the Seahawks didn't have a timeout left.  I didn't know if they did or didn't.  You just said they didn't, and I'll take your word for it.

Even if they had a TO left, 7 seconds isn’t long enough. 

Not with that personnel package on the field. 

Look, if there’s a case to be made for using 7 seconds & trying to get 7, I can accept that. Send out Wilson & the offense and take a shot. If they get the TD great. If not, throw it away & stop the clock, kick the FG. 

risks are taking a sack or taking too much time. But that’s risking 3 to get 7. I can accept that.

but the Fake FG trick play is such a low % play anyway, trying to execute THAT with 7 seconds left is insanity.  

To me they simply took 3 points off of the board. Bad coaching. 

 

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1 hour ago, davearm said:

If we're piling on Carroll, challenging the Baldwin non-catch in the 4th quarter, and losing a TO in the process, needs a mention.  That was brutal.  As the announcers suggested, it was as though he got goaded into it by the fans.

That’s the underrated dumb call of the week. That play had none chance of getting overturned. None. So totally obviously none. 

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This question of whether they had a TO or not was driving me crazy so I watched the sequence again. I have it on DVR. They had one TO still. But it was 4th down so they couldn't call it after being stuffed. If he had broke through and got the 1st down then yes I suppose he could have slid and called TO instead of just going in for a TD. Quicker than getting out of bounds. Stupidest call ever. That's the least athletic offensive formation possible. 

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2 hours ago, barackdhouse said:

Stupidest call ever. That's the least athletic offensive formation possible. 

Also my conclusion - if you’re gonna go for it, why try the trickery with that player grouping, unless you really, really want the least possible chance of success? 

just line up and take a shot at the end zone. 

Very odd. Very dumb. 

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6 hours ago, Long Ball Larry said:

Hmm, I remember you posting where you went to HS, since I went to the same.  With this, I could probably figure out who you are (or at least have about a 50/50 shot).

dont mean that to sound creepy, just struck me when I read that.

I don’t remember posting my HS, but maybe I did. (Said school has no football team, and never did.) Feel free to PM me a guess if you’d like. 

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58 minutes ago, Pip's Invitation said:

I don’t remember posting my HS, but maybe I did. (Said school has no football team, and never did.) Feel free to PM me a guess if you’d like. 

Ned: Hey, hey! Now, don't you tell me you don't remember me because I sure as heckfire remember you. 

Phil: Not a chance. 

Ned: Ned... Ryerson. "Needlenose Ned"? "Ned the Head"? C'mon, buddy. Case Western High. Ned Ryerson: I did the whistling belly-button trick at the high school talent show? Bing! Ned Ryerson: got the shingles real bad senior year, almost didn't graduate? Bing, again. Ned Ryerson: I dated your sister Mary Pat a couple times until you told me not to anymore? Well? 

Phil: Ned Ryerson? 

Ned: Bing! 

Phil: Bing.

:pickle:

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Bills--First half winding down. Third and 3, pass is short, leading to 4th and 1 with the clock running.
Bills call TO with 9 seconds left, meaning that the the clock won't run out on the 50+ FG attempt.
If the FG is missed, the Chiefs get the ball back with field position to take a heave and you have to kickoff after a made FG.

Why not let the clock go down to 0:01 before calling the TO?

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8 minutes ago, Gawain said:

Bills--First half winding down. Third and 3, pass is short, leading to 4th and 1 with the clock running.
Bills call TO with 9 seconds left, meaning that the the clock won't run out on the 50+ FG attempt.
If the FG is missed, the Chiefs get the ball back with field position to take a heave and you have to kickoff after a made FG.

Why not let the clock go down to 0:01 before calling the TO?

Sean McDermott has shown that he's not the best at clock management....

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7 minutes ago, Gawain said:

Bills--First half winding down. Third and 3, pass is short, leading to 4th and 1 with the clock running.
Bills call TO with 9 seconds left, meaning that the the clock won't run out on the 50+ FG attempt.
If the FG is missed, the Chiefs get the ball back with field position to take a heave and you have to kickoff after a made FG.

Why not let the clock go down to 0:01 before calling the TO?

My guess is that some coaches do that in case they get a hold or procedure penalty on the kick.  If that happens and the clock runs out, the half is over and you don't get to attempt it again.  In that situation, with the attempt being from so far back, I agree that it was bizarre. 

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5 hours ago, Gawain said:

Bills--First half winding down. Third and 3, pass is short, leading to 4th and 1 with the clock running.
Bills call TO with 9 seconds left, meaning that the the clock won't run out on the 50+ FG attempt.
If the FG is missed, the Chiefs get the ball back with field position to take a heave and you have to kickoff after a made FG.

Why not let the clock go down to 0:01 before calling the TO?

I was thinking the exact same thing while listening to the game on the radio.  It probably won't matter, but why take the chance of leaving time on the clock?

But hey, at least Doug Marrone came along and provided a funnier example of ####### things up in the waning seconds.

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can someone please tell me why, after Kamara had 84 yards on 4 carries in the 1st half, why did Payton decide to open the 2nd half with Ingram and proceed to give him a ton of carries nearly completely ignoring the BETTER rb in Kamara until they were down 2 tds late in the 3rd..wtf is Payton doing?? I mean seriously he's so damn smug and arrogant with that pouty puckered lips  look on his face like he's the smartest guy in the stadium only to discover he's just a meat head with a laminated playcard and a golf visor who gets more cutesie with his play calling than Andy Reid and thats saying something..Kamara should've had 200 yards rushing in that game single handedly destroying the Rams ..did you see Kamara shaking his head at the last couple mins of that game like wtf is coach Payton doing?? just a horrible game plan ...might be dumber than Adam Gase calling himself a head coach.

and dont look noe..but  the wheels are falling off in KC and Andy Reid is doing his best philly And Reid implosion..details at 11.

 

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1 hour ago, Slider said:

Tomlin said the Steelers should win it all. Stupid on a couple levels.

I don't even get it.  Did he really say that?  Why?  Something taken out of context?  He's usually not the type of coach to say something that dumb.

Edited by fred_1_15301
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Just now, fred_1_15301 said:

I don't even get it.  Did he really say that?  Why?  Something taken out of context?

He said it. He was also quoted as already talking about when they play the Patriots in two weeks and alluded to their eventual matchup against NE in the playoffs. Nothing like looking far ahead, eh?  

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1 minute ago, Ghost Rider said:

He said it. He was also quoted as already talking about when they play the Patriots in two weeks and alluded to their eventual matchup against NE in the playoffs. Nothing like looking far ahead, eh?  

Can you please link the exact quotes?   ETA - I want to post it in the Steelers thread this week when I go on my rant.

Edited by fred_1_15301
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4 hours ago, Mr. Brownstone said:

Doug Marrone has done a nice job this year, but the decision to pass on second down whilst playing for OT has left me flummoxed. 

And then McCarthy did the exact same thing (though that one was more on Williams for going out of bounds).

Still, why are you putting the ball in the air at all in that situation?

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18 minutes ago, Slider said:

Yeah after watching the entire interview, it really wasn't that bad.  I have no problem with the "we should win it all" comment.  I want that type of confidence in a coach.  It's a very talented team so why shouldn't he feel that way?  I just don't like the part where he starts talking about New England.  Focus on one game at a time and worry about New England in 3 weeks.  However, a lot of the Steelers fans in this forum had no issues with any of it.  

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12 minutes ago, Loipz said:

Came in to say this. I was really confused at why he didn’t just go for it there. FG literally does nothing for them at that point. 

In the "by the book" mindset, it means you can now tie the game with a TD/FG. The problem with this thinking is that your goal is not to tie, it's to win; tying only gives you a 50/50 shot at that. But it does allow you to "stay in the game", "live to fight another day", and other tired cliches.

Meanwhile, if you score, you only need one TD to win outright. Without even looking at any quantitative analysis/Fourth Down Bot, I can guarantee that was the optimal move there.

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31 minutes ago, zftcg said:

In the "by the book" mindset, it means you can now tie the game with a TD/FG. The problem with this thinking is that your goal is not to tie, it's to win; tying only gives you a 50/50 shot at that. But it does allow you to "stay in the game", "live to fight another day", and other tired cliches.

Meanwhile, if you score, you only need one TD to win outright. Without even looking at any quantitative analysis/Fourth Down Bot, I can guarantee that was the optimal move there.

But they were down 10 now in the 4th so they were riding on 2 more defensive stops and also scoring twice in such a short time frame. If they go and succeed it’s just one stop and scoring once. Without their best corners it seemed like a tall order even at the time to ask for 2 defensive stops in a row. 

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There were 10 minutes left in the game, so you can justify Payton's decision based on the fact that New Orleans was expected to have at least 2 more possessions (which they did).

Nonetheless, it's just bad strategy to go for the field goal at the 3 yard line. Even if you don't get the TD, you're probably going to get the ball back at midfield after a punt (and you might even get a safety).

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53 minutes ago, Loipz said:

But they were down 10 now in the 4th so they were riding on 2 more defensive stops and also scoring twice in such a short time frame. If they go and succeed it’s just one stop and scoring once. Without their best corners it seemed like a tall order even at the time to ask for 2 defensive stops in a row. 

I'm with you. I was just trying to explain the likely mindset. On the Bill Barnwell Podcast, he'll occasionally have Daniel Adler, former analytics guy for the Jags, on as a guest. It's very clear that Adler lost a lot of these arguments when he was with the team, but as a result, he helps shed light on how the "traditional" football guys approach decision making. One of the things he said one time was that when their teams are behind, coaches generally treat tying the game up as the same as taking the lead, even though by definition it has 50% lower win expectancy. So in that situation, Payton was probably thinking that kicking the FG would make it "easier" to tie the game (though as you point out, not all that much easier, since you still have to score twice).

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Weird use of timeouts by the Saints at the end of the first half.

Rams have 1 timeout left, Saints have 3. Rams get sacked at their own 45 yard line with 26 seconds left in the half, giving them 3rd & 20. Saints have 2 options here:

Option 1 for the Saints is to not use any timeouts. That forces the Rams to play hurryup. In order to play for the field goal, the Rams have to either 1) hurry to get the next play off, then if they get into field goal range they use their timeout or 2) use their last timeout now, then if they pick up a chunk of yardage to get into field goal range they have to either get out of bounds at the end of the play or else rush the field goal unit onto the field to kick before time expires. Either of those approaches forces the Rams to hurry, and the time pressure makes it harder for them to score.

Option 2 for the Saints is to use a timeout immediately (with 26 seconds left), then use another timeout after the next play. The Rams gained 10 yards, so they would've been left with 4th and 10 from the NO 45 with about 20 seconds left. If the Rams attempt the FG and miss, the Saints get the ball back at the LA 47 with about 14 seconds left and 1 timeout (or something close to that). That would give the Saints time to run a play or 2 to try to get into FG range, and they could try a hail mary if they don't get close enough to kick it. Possibly the Rams would choose not to attempt that FG in order to avoid giving the Saints this opportunity.

Instead the Saints used the first timeout but not the second. The Rams had the clock stopped to set up their 3rd down play and gained 10 yards. Then they ran the clock down to 2 seconds, called timeout, and tried a 63 yard field goal. (It came up short, as did the Saints' attempted return.)

Edited by ZWK
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I could just say “Andy Reid” and leave it at that.

but down 1 score in a 16-10 game, they’re looking at 3rd and 1 or 3rd and 2, and the Chief’s throw deep to Hill - something they’ve been unable to do all day with Smith struggling mightily. Did they think he’d suddenly find his mojo that play after 3 quarters & 12 mins? :doh:

ok, 4-down territory. Cool - 4th and 2. Here’s a list of really effective plays to pick up 2 yards with the game on the line:

• put in a power set with 3 TEs & a FB and run your stud RB up the gut. 

• Quick slant to a WR or TE

• Short 3-4 yard buttonhook to a TE like Kelce. 

• Short dump-off pass to a RB 2-3 yards 

Here’s a list of super ineffective plays:

• Idiotic gadget direct snap to the TE so he gets stuffed 3 yards in the backfield. 

Q: With the game, and possibly the season on the line, guess which one of these plays the Chiefs decided to roll with? 

A: Andy Reid

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19 hours ago, Insein said:

Payton kicking a FG down 13 in the 4th quarter at the Rams 4.

Worst case scenario you're down two scores and the Rams are pinned back near their own goal line

If any coach in the league should have confidence in his offense to score from the 4, it's this guy

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