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Post here when coaches do something you disagree with (2 Viewers)

FreeBaGeL said:
Freddie Kitchens not challenging an obvious pass interference at a critical part of the game.

EDIT: And then following it up with a running play on 4th and 9 :lmao:
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came to post following all that with four straight pass plays from the five with game on  the line but multiple timeouts in hand.

QB draw was WIDE OPEN twice too

 
renesauz said:
came to post following all that with four straight pass plays from the five with game on  the line but multiple timeouts in hand.

QB draw was WIDE OPEN twice too
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Yep, Chubb was the only thing working tonight.  1st and goal from the 5, three timeouts and plenty of time, they line up 5 wide every time and roll to the right twice which is exactly what the Rams' defense was shifting to take away all night.

Four plays from the 5 with the game on the line and neither Chubb nor OBJ get a look.  But backup TE in double coverage?  You bet your butt he got a look.

 
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Brian Flores Miami vs Dallas 1st half

Preston Williams had a potential TD knocked out of his hands after he had secured the ball and taken what looked like two full steps. 

-It's possible the play would have been upheld but this was at a point in the game IIRC where Miami could have taken the lead potentially into halftime and Flores did not challenge. 

Different Team/Coach-Freddie Kitchens LARams vs Cleve on SNF

-4th and 9 with at least half of the 4th Q left and they were sitting on the Rams 40 yd line and the Browns defense had held the Rams to 17 to that point...think it was 17-13 maybe. I really question this guy being a head coach. The offense had 6 penalties vs the defense 1 last night. His team is the most penalized thru 3 games with 35 penalties for almost 350 yds in 3 games. 

-The play call was a draw play which was highly questionable on 4th and 9...

 
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This doesn't fall into the category of "obviously stupid," but it came up twice in the Bills-Bengals game and somebody mentioned it in the game thread.

Let's say its 1st and 10 on the 25 yard line following a touchback.  First down is an incomplete pass, but there's a flag for illegal formation on the offense, a 5 yard penalty.  The Bills and Bengals each found themselves in this spot, and each coach elected to enforce the penalty.  Intuitively, that seems like the wrong decision.  I'm pretty sure I would rather defend 2nd and 10 than 1st and 15.

Where do we come down on this one? 

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Where do we come down on this one? 
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I'm with you, not sure what the math says in terms of expected points or whatever but my gut says the loss of down is more valuable to the defense than the additional 5 yards.  

Thinking about it a little more, league average YPA is probably > 5, so in theory losing 5 yards but getting to replay the down is a net positive for the offense?  Of course putting them in more obvious passing situations presumably reduces effective YPA, but then maybe unexpected runs are more effective, wine in front of me and all that... I'll leave it to bigger nerds to figure out the numbers, but I've always suspected that auto-accepting all these 5 yard penalties is suboptimal and loss of down is undervalued in these situations.  

 
I’ve always felt that until midfield I’d rather have the down.  Across midfield and I’ll take the yards for a shot at keeping them out of FG range.

By that logic I should take the down inside the 15 where the FG is pretty automatic.  I can go for that...

 
IvanKaramazov said:
This doesn't fall into the category of "obviously stupid," but it came up twice in the Bills-Bengals game and somebody mentioned it in the game thread.

Let's say its 1st and 10 on the 25 yard line following a touchback.  First down is an incomplete pass, but there's a flag for illegal formation on the offense, a 5 yard penalty.  The Bills and Bengals each found themselves in this spot, and each coach elected to enforce the penalty.  Intuitively, that seems like the wrong decision.  I'm pretty sure I would rather defend 2nd and 10 than 1st and 15.

Where do we come down on this one? 
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My gut tells me I should decline the penalty. According to ProFootballReference, a team gains an average of 7.6 yards on 1st-and-15 from the 20.

So if you phrased the question as "Would you rather defend 2nd-and-10 or 2nd-and-7?", then of course I'd want to decline the penalty.

Then again, I'd also have to incorporate the 10.3% chance of getting a 1st down on that extra play (along with the 3.0% chance of turning the ball over).

So....I don't have a definitive answer but my gut still says "decline the penalty".

edit: fixed my terrible math, thanks @zed2283

 
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trader jake said:
Ministry of Pain said:
-The play call was a draw play which was highly questionable on 4th and 9...
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Heard this was the first time in some databases history that a designed run was called in that game/down & distance situation.
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Checking the PFR database, Cleveland's play call was the only designed run since 1994. (And I even expanded the parameters a bit, assuming that a team trailing by 4-8 points while needing 7-11 yards from the 30-50 yard lines would basically be in the same scenario.)

If I expand the parameters a little more (needing 6-15 yards anywhere between the 20s, trailing by 4-24 points), then a few more run plays show up -- a grand total of 8 designed runs out of 1327 opportunities, of which exactly NONE resulted in a first down.

 
[scooter] said:
Checking the PFR database, Cleveland's play call was the only designed run since 1994. (And I even expanded the parameters a bit, assuming that a team trailing by 4-8 points while needing 7-11 yards from the 30-50 yard lines would basically be in the same scenario.)

If I expand the parameters a little more (needing 6-15 yards anywhere between the 20s, trailing by 4-24 points), then a few more run plays show up -- a grand total of 8 designed runs out of 1327 opportunities, of which exactly NONE resulted in a first down.
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He had the element of surprise!!

 
Clearly not in the obviously stupid category (or even stupid at all), but my gut was telling me Nagy should have gone for it on 4th and 2, up 13 and ~1:50 on the clock, Redskins no timeouts.  First down clinches the game (obviously).  And your kicker injured his leg a few days ago and missed a FG earlier in the game.

Their win % was 99.x in any event, but I think I tell my guys, get the two yards and win us the game.

 
David Montgomery was gaining chunk yardage almost every time he touched the ball. Even the carries of 2-3 yards were impressive as he’d broken tackles to avoid taking a loss. His first carry went for 8 yards. 

So naturally, up 28-3 in the second half, they forget he’s on the team. The first series they had the ball, the only run on the 3-and-out was Corredelle Patterson. 😳

with a struggling QB, twice within the 3, they passed on 1st down. While successful, the next RZ trip they had 1st and goal & ran Gabriel, resulting in 7 yards and a concussion for the dude who’d been their best receiver. 

2nd & 3 from the 5, they throw it - interception. 

Why draft David Montgomery if you aren’t going to run him in short yardage? 

Once on 3rd and 2 they handed it to 180 lb Cohen up the gut instead of 220 lb DMont. Even Booger said it was dumb. 

It wasn’t until 6 mins to go that they fed him, resulting in big play after big play to ice the game. 

And yeah, I’m a Montgomery owner, but this is just football.  Run Cohen, run Davis, hell, even Patterson - but up 28-3, run the damn ball. 

Most idiotic play-calling I’ve ever seen. And it nearly cost them the game. If WAS had a halfway competent QB, the Bears may have lost this one. 

But Nagy could go to sleep at night feeling like the smartest boy alive for his cleverness. :rolleyes:  

 
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davearm said:
Clearly not in the obviously stupid category (or even stupid at all), but my gut was telling me Nagy should have gone for it on 4th and 2, up 13 and ~1:50 on the clock, Redskins no timeouts.  First down clinches the game (obviously).  And your kicker injured his leg a few days ago and missed a FG earlier in the game.

Their win % was 99.x in any event, but I think I tell my guys, get the two yards and win us the game.
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Agreed 100%

 
Arodin said:
I’ve always felt that until midfield I’d rather have the down. Across midfield and I’ll take the yards for a shot at keeping them out of FG range.

By that logic I should take the down inside the 15 where the FG is pretty automatic.  I can go for that...
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That definitely makes sense (depending on game situation of course).

But yeah, unless it's end of game and a team is obviously going to go for it on 4th down, then a team deep in their own territory is going to punt on 4th down. So that means they need 5 yards per play for a 1st down whether it is 1st and 15 or 2nd and 10. And if that's the case, I think I would prefer to give the offense less opportunities to gain yards knowing that the odds of a "chunk" play go up the more chances a team gets.

Now, if a team is obviously going to go for it on 4th down, maybe I change since 1st and 15 over 4 downs requires more yards per play than 2nd and 10 with 3 downs.

Maybe individual team adjustments or game situation could influence the analytics, but all things being equal, I think accepting the penalty when the opponent is deep on their own side is a mistake.

Now accepting a holding penalty to make it 1st and 20, that's a different story.

 
At least 80% of these guys now are flat out dumb and it's getting worse.

Calvin Johnson: In Johnson’s second year, quarterback Jon Kitna said—well, take it away, Calvin: “He left the meeting room one day, and he told the coaches and the whole team that we’re not gonna win a game if we go into the season with [this] system. Somebody should have listened. Because we were 0–16 after that.”

 
zed2283 said:
1st and goal.  Pass, pass, pass, pass, turnover on downs.
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I said it in the Eagles thread.  It should be almost impossible to not score a TD from 1st and goal at the 1 (unless you have a penalty).  All you have to do is have your QB push forward 4 straight times (if needed).  You don't even need to hand it to the RB.   Just ask Belichick and Brady how it's done.

 
fred_1_15301 said:
I said it in the Eagles thread.  It should be almost impossible to not score a TD from 1st and goal at the 1 (unless you have a penalty).  All you have to do is have your QB push forward 4 straight times (if needed).  You don't even need to hand it to the RB.   Just ask Belichick and Brady how it's done.
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Maybe that's why Rodgers was never allowed to audible.

 
trader jake said:
I believe Jay Gruden just accepted a penalty when the Redskins D had forced a 4th down, long field goal attempt.  Got greedy, the Giants converted, and scored a touchdown.
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If he doesn’t take the penalty, it would have been a 47 yard field goal, not long at all.  Crazy if this is considered a dumb decision.   

 
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Kevrunner said:
If he doesn’t take the penalty, it would have been a 47 yard field goal, not long at all.  Crazy if this is considered a dumb decision.   
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It was dumb.  The play was to give up the long field goal attempt and get the ball back.  Instead he put a crappy defense in position to be crappy, and instantly gave the Giants offense confidence.

It's the NFL.  Rarely do field goals beat you.  Be happy when your defense holds the opponent to 47 yard field goal attempts and get off the field.

 
trader jake said:
It was dumb.  The play was to give up the long field goal attempt and get the ball back.  Instead he put a crappy defense in position to be crappy, and instantly gave the Giants offense confidence.

It's the NFL.  Rarely do field goals beat you.  Be happy when your defense holds the opponent to 47 yard field goal attempts and get off the field.
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Push them back, 57 yard field goal attempt if the defense holds.  Giants with a rookie QB, it’s a good call.  Hindsight is 20/20.  I don’t think Gruden is a good head coach, but a 47 yard field goal is a chip shot for the Giants kicker.  It’s not a dumb call, just didn’t work out in my opinion.  The difference to me is that a 47 yard field is pretty automatic for Rosas.  Also, other than the Giants ending up and getting a TD on this offensive drive, throughout the rest of the game, they only scored 1 other offensive TD.    The odds of the Giants getting an offensive TD actually was pretty low on any drive. 

 
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Personally I think it was obviously stupid of Pete Carroll to not go for it on 4th and 1 with 1:30 remaining in the half, the Rams with two TOs and Zurlein as the opposing kicker. 

They miss the kick, adding another seven yards to the Rams field position and now the Rams are 2nd & 7 from the Seahawks 9 with one TO.

Bad call.

ETA: TD Rams. Go figure.

 
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Not sure if it's obviously stupid.but I sure feel like Gruden made a.mistake to take a knee, while up 17, with 28 seconds left in the half on their own 40ish with one timeout.

I like to see coaches I be aggressive I'm that situation. It shows faith in the offense and gives confidence to the team. Kneeling, otoh, shows a pack of faith that does not go unnoticed by the players.

 
Just Win Baby said:
Then it's not.
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Okay. I think it was obviously stupid but am willing to listen to arguments as to why it wasn't.

Seeing as how the 3rd has opened up it's going.to take a lot more convincing to see how it wasn't obviously stupid. What is happening now is the reason you, obviously should be aggressive in that situation.

Better?

 
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