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Eli Manning: Does Anyone Still Believe? (1 Viewer)

Counterpoint. He was the starting QB for 14 seasons. Only 6 of those his team went to the playoffs, and in 4 of those he was one and done. So no, I don't think 2 magical/lucky/flukey runs should get you into the hall. Write a book if you want to hear cool stories, but he's not a hall of fame player, even though I know he'll get shoved in anyway.

 
jasvic said:
Counterpoint. He was the starting QB for 14 seasons. Only 6 of those his team went to the playoffs, and in 4 of those he was one and done. So no, I don't think 2 magical/lucky/flukey runs should get you into the hall. Write a book if you want to hear cool stories, but he's not a hall of fame player, even though I know he'll get shoved in anyway.
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The 2007 team had ONE pro bowler (Osi)... the 2011 team had TWO pro bowlers, and one of those was Eli.  Those teams were 10-6 and 9-7. Where is this notion coming from that Eli was "carried" by these historically great teams with all these hall of famers? 

Eli holds the record for most passing yards in a single postseason (1,219)? And he had a 9:1 TD:INT ratio. If you look at it historically, it's quite honestly a lock for top 3 postseason performance by a QB in HISTORY.

 
kodycutter said:
The 2007 team had ONE pro bowler (Osi)... the 2011 team had TWO pro bowlers, and one of those was Eli.  Those teams were 10-6 and 9-7. Where is this notion coming from that Eli was "carried" by these historically great teams with all these hall of famers? 

Eli holds the record for most passing yards in a single postseason (1,219)? And he had a 9:1 TD:INT ratio. If you look at it historically, it's quite honestly a lock for top 3 postseason performance by a QB in HISTORY.
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Cool, so one good postseason makes you a hall of famer? Then Nick Foles should be a lock for what he did in 2017, plus he's tied for most TDs in a single game and had the 27TD to 2 int season. Just put him in now, anything else he does is gravy. Look at Eli's career, not just the 2 highlights. How often was he considered a top 5 QB in any season he played? Top 10?

And in contrast to your point, show me how Eli "carried" his team during the playoff runs? in 2007 the defense averaged 16 points per game in the playoffs, in 2011 they averaged 14. So yeah, I'd say the defense is what "carried" the team to those wins.

 
jasvic said:
Cool, so one good postseason makes you a hall of famer? Then Nick Foles should be a lock for what he did in 2017, plus he's tied for most TDs in a single game and had the 27TD to 2 int season. Just put him in now, anything else he does is gravy. Look at Eli's career, not just the 2 highlights. How often was he considered a top 5 QB in any season he played? Top 10?

And in contrast to your point, show me how Eli "carried" his team during the playoff runs? in 2007 the defense averaged 16 points per game in the playoffs, in 2011 they averaged 14. So yeah, I'd say the defense is what "carried" the team to those wins.
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He's gonna get in, sorry that it disappoints you.    You from SJ?

 
kodycutter said:
Well, I see repeatedly mentioned by the “experts” on ESPN and other places that Eli “has 2 rings” and/or these incredible SB “moments” and it’s done in a way that lumps in the Brad Johnson’s, Trent Dilfers etc with him.

The issue is that this largely diminishes what Eli did in those 2 seasons and runs. It acts as if he was either carried to a win a la Dilfer or he had a great one off game like Doug Williams. Neither is true. 2007 was a remarkable run to a Super Bowl, 2011 was an incredible season and a great run to a Super Bowl. Manning received MVP that year and deservedly so and led a pretty unstoppable offense by seasons end. 

Manning led 8 wins with 5 of those wins coming on the road. He knocked off the 1 and 2 seeds both times, All of these teams were 13-3 or better. He didn’t just beat Brady, he beat Favre and Rodgers and Romo. Manning bested a 15-1 defending Super Bowl champion on their home field. He topped BrettFavre in an Ice Bowl. They beat top rated offenses and defenses. He took an insane pounding at San Fran against an incredible defense. 

It wasn’t just the Helmet Catch and the Manningham throw. It was the insane drive in a minute vs Dallas before the half. It was his ice in his veins stoicness that undressed Al Harris. It was his sideline improvised toss to Kevin Boss. It was his Hail Mary to Hakeem Nicks, it was his level headless to tell TC to call a TO. It was his dogged determination to get up hit after hit that took away San Fran’s heart. 

It wasn’t one game, or two games. He wasn’t carried by defenses, He led two championship teams and what should be considered legendary playoff runs.

Yes they slayed the Patriots in both Super Bowls but the entire run was legendary and magical and they laid waste to some of the best teams and the leagues most prominent franchises.

These runs altered the history of the NFL. It’s not just what would NFL history look like with a 7th or 8th Pats SB or the first 19-0 team. How about Brett Favres 2nd Super Bowl Title in his last game with the Pack? How about Romo getting a Super Bowl in Big D? Those were 2 13-3 teams. How about Rodgers going back-to-back with a 15-1 team? Or Jim Harbaugh winning his for San Fran? 

This was New England, Dallas. Green Bay and San Francisco he took out. Brady, Favre, Rodgers, Romo. Legacies would be completely changed. This wasn’t knocking off some 9-7 5th or 6th seed type Houston Texan teams. 

The history of the NFL can’t be told with out Eli and that’s why he deserves to be in.
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That's great if you are a NYG fan, but it's not convincing to me. If Eli gets in then people can't complain about Joe Namath in the HOF. If your criteria is used, then Joe Namath is more qualified then Eli Manning because the history of the NFL can't be told without mentioning the first AFL side to win a superbowl, as well as the first passer to throw for 4000 yards in a season. For 3-4 years Namath was prolific, for 2 years Eli was. Eli never transcended or brought a side of football that changed the game.

 
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GROOT said:
That's great if you are a NYG fan, but it's not convincing to me. If Eli gets in then people can't complain about Joe Namath in the HOF. If your criteria is used, then Joe Namath is more qualified then Eli Manning because the history of the NFL can't be told without mentioning the first AFL side to win a superbowl, as well as the first passer to throw for 4000 yards in a season. For 3-4 years Namath was prolific, for 2 years Eli was. Eli never transcended or brought a side of football that changed the game.
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Seems like Broadway Joe is gets compared against today’s passing numbers which seems unfair to me. I believe when he retired he was 9th or 10th all time in passing yards.

The more INT that TD isn't a good look though

 
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jasvic said:
Cool, so one good postseason makes you a hall of famer? Then Nick Foles should be a lock for what he did in 2017,
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Well you can call him a "compiler" but Eli is also 7th in all time passing yards and 7th in all time passing TDs - where does Foles land on those lists?

 
Dr. Octopus said:
Well you can call him a "compiler" but Eli is also 7th in all time passing yards and 7th in all time passing TDs - where does Foles land on those lists?
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Obviously, I don't think Foles should be in, but that wasn't the point he was making. The argument was he should be in based on the playoff run. And we all know the game has changed and his career passing numbers will be quickly eclipsed. When Testaverde retired in 2007 he was #6 in passing yards and 8th in TDs, now he's dropped to 15th and 16th respectively. Don't remember many arguments for him getting enshrined.

 
kodycutter said:
Giants D got plenty of credit, all over Brady in 2 games.  Wasn't the D that had game winning drives in the 4th 2x.   I haven't looked it up, but who has won the superbowl giving up 24+?     Team game, argument goes both ways with his 117-117 regular season record.   16 years didn't miss a game due to injury,  Shined when the lights were brightest.    Who was the best QB for the NYG from that draft - guy with 2 rings,  shoulda been 3.   
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Actually it has been done 11 times. Giving up 30+ points only 3 times: By Bradshaw (4 TD's/318 yards passing), Flacco (3 TD's/287 yards passing), and Foles (3 TD's/373 yards passing, 1 TD receiving). And Foles defense gave up over 600 yards. It may be the only game ever in NFL history that a team gained over 600 yards and lost.

 
Dr. Octopus said:
Well you can call him a "compiler" but Eli is also 7th in all time passing yards and 7th in all time passing TDs - where does Foles land on those lists?
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If Eli doesn’t go on two of the most improbable (and greatest) Super Bowl runs of all time, none of us would be discussing if he is a HOFer. Being Top 7 in those categories would fall in the “that’s nice” category. 

 
Anarchy99 said:
If Eli doesn’t go on two of the most improbable (and greatest) Super Bowl runs of all time, none of us would be discussing if he is a HOFer. Being Top 7 in those categories would fall in the “that’s nice” category. 
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….other than that how was the play Mrs. Lincoln?

 
Anarchy99 said:
If Eli doesn’t go on two of the most improbable (and greatest) Super Bowl runs of all time, none of us would be discussing if he is a HOFer. Being Top 7 in those categories would fall in the “that’s nice” category. 
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:goodposting:

The tipping point for HOF voters will be the two Super Bowl runs that cumulated in wins over the Patriots (who are regarded as one of the top, if not the top dynasty team). Leading these Giants teams to victory over Tom Brady & Bill Belichick with the improbable plays to David Tyree and Mario Mannigham and the clutch touchdown pass to Plaxico Burress are what contributes to the “fame factor” for Eli Manning and will be what vaults him into the HOF in my opinion - regardless if he wouldn’t be deserving to enter the HOF without those two Super Bowl wins.

It is called the Hall of Fame after all, not the Hall of Truly Great/Transcendent Players.

 
jasvic said:
Obviously, I don't think Foles should be in, but that wasn't the point he was making. The argument was he should be in based on the playoff run. And we all know the game has changed and his career passing numbers will be quickly eclipsed. When Testaverde retired in 2007 he was #6 in passing yards and 8th in TDs, now he's dropped to 15th and 16th respectively. Don't remember many arguments for him getting enshrined.
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Well I was replying to your ridiculous Foles' comparison. Whether you think he should be in, or not, his one playoff run wouldn't be the ONLY reason he gets in. He is top 10 in 2 major passing statistics (whether he will be eventually passed or not) and is a 2 time Super Bowl winner and MVP.

It's a dumb argument anyway. He's getting in. I'm sure he won't lose any sleep either knowing jasvic from some fantasy football message board doesn't think he should.

 
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Wins are a team statistic, not an individual accomplishment.  Only the ignorant allow themselves to believe otherwise. Yes, Super Bowl wins too. Perhaps many are willing to argue this. If this is the case, I don’t have a problem saying there are lots of ignorant people. 
 

NFL football is the ultimate TEAM game. 

 
Hooper31 said:
Wins are a team statistic, not an individual accomplishment.  Only the ignorant allow themselves to believe otherwise. Yes, Super Bowl wins too. Perhaps many are willing to argue this. If this is the case, I don’t have a problem saying there are lots of ignorant people. 
 

NFL football is the ultimate TEAM game. 
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While of course this is true of all sports (no one thinks a single player is solely responsible for a win) but certain positions that are deemed to be the most important in the sport are attributed wins as a statistic, like pitchers, goalies and quarterbacks.

 
Dr. Octopus said:
While of course this is true of all sports (no one thinks a single player is solely responsible for a win) but certain positions that are deemed to be the most important in the sport are attributed wins as a statistic, like pitchers, goalies and quarterbacks.
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IMO that's lazy analysis. Quarterbacks can be gifted super bowl wins when their defense plays well. It's happened too many times to count. It happened for Eli twice. Again, crediting him for super bowl wins is just lame. Placing so much emphasis on a sample size of two is beyond stoopid (yeah, with two O's). I won't even point to his regular season record, because again, wins and losses aren't an individual statistic. Eli was never top five in any reasonable measure of comparison to his peers. 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannEl00.htm

QBR? Passer rating? Approx. value? Adjusted value?  In his best season he finished 7th in one of those categories. 

I like that there are no fixed standards for HOF voting. I like that it's purely subjective. In my subjective opinion, he doesn't get in. However, if he does get in I won't mind because he's a former Payton award winner that played a long time and to me character counts. He plays an important role in telling the whole story of the NFL.  I don't mind that the voting body has delayed entry to some players like Owens, Alex Karras, and Bob Hayes. In football players need to be accountable for how their actions impact their team and the entire league. Again, leadership and character count. Just don't try to justify his entry to the HOF based on two games. IMO that's lame. 

 
Hooper31 said:
IMO that's lazy analysis. Quarterbacks can be gifted super bowl wins when their defense plays well. It's happened too many times to count. It happened for Eli twice. Again, crediting him for super bowl wins is just lame. Placing so much emphasis on a sample size of two is beyond stoopid (yeah, with two O's). I won't even point to his regular season record, because again, wins and losses aren't an individual statistic. Eli was never top five in any reasonable measure of comparison to his peers. 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannEl00.htm

QBR? Passer rating? Approx. value? Adjusted value?  In his best season he finished 7th in one of those categories. 

I like that there are no fixed standards for HOF voting. I like that it's purely subjective. In my subjective opinion, he doesn't get in. However, if he does get in I won't mind because he's a former Payton award winner that played a long time and to me character counts. He plays an important role in telling the whole story of the NFL.  I don't mind that the voting body has delayed entry to some players like Owens, Alex Karras, and Bob Hayes. In football players need to be accountable for how their actions impact their team and the entire league. Again, leadership and character count. Just don't try to justify his entry to the HOF based on two games. IMO that's lame. 
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Ok - to me winning 2 SuperBowl MVPs is only part of the reason he’ll make it. I was just pointing out that “wins” is an actual stat for QBs and it’s also been used against him as he “doesn’t have a winning record” so it works both ways. While the Giants D played a huge role especially in their first win with Eli he also played a major role in those games and their playoff runs.

Im not a huge Eli fan or anything - I’m actually a Jets fan. I just find it odd everyone comes in to crap on his HoF credentials the day he announces his retirement. I hope he gets in just to annoy all those haters.

 
No one accidentally wins two super bowls, never mind MVPs, he's top 10 in TDs and yards, he's in and deservedly so.  

Eli ran into some bad luck in terms of management and the big one was Plaxico.  That team was going to win a bowl that year and that put them in a tail spin.  Plax was the perfect target for Eli who admittedly often sent balls high, but Plax could get up and snag them.

Eli also thrived with TE's and getting a true stud one should have been priority for him in particular.  He got guys like Kevin Boss and Jake Ballard big contracts with other teams.  The best he had was Martellus Bennett for one year.   I'm not asking for a Kelce level guy but just a big seam target he could have had for a good run. 

 
Smack Tripper said:
No one accidentally wins two super bowls, never mind MVPs, he's top 10 in TDs and yards, he's in and deservedly so.  

Eli ran into some bad luck in terms of management and the big one was Plaxico.  That team was going to win a bowl that year and that put them in a tail spin.  Plax was the perfect target for Eli who admittedly often sent balls high, but Plax could get up and snag them.

Eli also thrived with TE's and getting a true stud one should have been priority for him in particular.  He got guys like Kevin Boss and Jake Ballard big contracts with other teams.  The best he had was Martellus Bennett for one year.   I'm not asking for a Kelce level guy but just a big seam target he could have had for a good run. 
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That's great, but that's not Hall of Fame

 
Smack Tripper said:
No one accidentally wins two super bowls, never mind MVPs, he's top 10 in TDs and yards, he's in and deservedly so.  

Eli ran into some bad luck in terms of management and the big one was Plaxico.  That team was going to win a bowl that year and that put them in a tail spin.  Plax was the perfect target for Eli who admittedly often sent balls high, but Plax could get up and snag them.

Eli also thrived with TE's and getting a true stud one should have been priority for him in particular.  He got guys like Kevin Boss and Jake Ballard big contracts with other teams.  The best he had was Martellus Bennett for one year.   I'm not asking for a Kelce level guy but just a big seam target he could have had for a good run. 
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He’s going to get in on the basis of the two SB runs. But let’s not make him something he’s not. I have posted many times over the years that Eli in the regular season was either A) average statistically (my analysis) or B) BELOW replacement value (based on statistical analysis by others and I included links).

Yes, he ranked highly in career compiling stats, but playing for a long time and showing up every game just yields BELOW AVERAGE per play performance that rolls up into decent accumulating stats. His stats and track record don’t lie. He had a couple of strong regular seasons but the huge majority of his career he was average and many years a liability. 

I know winning percentage is not a QB only metric, but the other QB’s that are HOFers generally speaking have had solid winning percentages. Eli cannot be held accountable for the Giants deficiencies over the years, but he can be held accountable for not winning more in other seasons when they weren’t as flawed. Bottom line, there were plenty of times he cost his teams wins. Yes, there were times he pulled out wins. But combine the two and the .500 record was a pretty good indication of how his career went. 

He is what he is. A borderline HOF candidate that is going to make it in more for the FAME part than the ELITE PRODUCTION part. IMO, voters are more swayed by postseason results than regular season production. This will be another textbook example. 

 
Smack Tripper said:
No one accidentally wins two super bowls, never mind MVPs, he's top 10 in TDs and yards, he's in and deservedly so.  

Eli ran into some bad luck in terms of management and the big one was Plaxico.  That team was going to win a bowl that year and that put them in a tail spin.  Plax was the perfect target for Eli who admittedly often sent balls high, but Plax could get up and snag them.

Eli also thrived with TE's and getting a true stud one should have been priority for him in particular.  He got guys like Kevin Boss and Jake Ballard big contracts with other teams.  The best he had was Martellus Bennett for one year.   I'm not asking for a Kelce level guy but just a big seam target he could have had for a good run. 
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Jeremy Shockey down?

 
There is no question in my mind that he is getting in. It's pretty simple:

  1. QB on 2 Super Bowl champs, and Super Bowl MVP in both. Regardless of whether or not you think he should have won those MVPs, he did. Importantly, he made impressive clutch plays late in both Super Bowls that were instrumental in those championships. He also played well in leading both of those teams to 4-0 postseason runs and beat the vaunted Patriots both times.
  2. Top 10 in multiple passing statistics - passing yards, passing TDs. People can rightfully point out that cumulative statistics can be accumulated with quantity and not quality, but these metrics are probably the two most discussed metrics in discussions about all-time QB performance/rankings.
  3. Started 222 consecutive games, including playoffs. That is the 4th longest QB streak in history, and the closest active player to passing him is Russell Wilson, who is at 143 consecutive starts... still 5 seasons away.
  4. Member of a famous NFL family and played in the media center of the US, so he got more attention/hype from day 1 of his career than most QBs of similar ability. He is also seemingly a genuinely good guy who is well liked by media, coaches, and teammates. All of this will help him with HOF voters.
While I don't think he generally measures up to most HOF QBs in level of QB play, that resume will get him in, and I think it should. He checks a lot of the typical criteria boxes, including sustained long term success, multiple championships, signature postseason moments, and famous (and not for negative reasons), which goes to the "it's the Hall of *Fame* argument.

 
Just Win Baby said:
There is no question in my mind that he is getting in. It's pretty simple:

  1. QB on 2 Super Bowl champs, and Super Bowl MVP in both. Regardless of whether or not you think he should have won those MVPs, he did. Importantly, he made impressive clutch plays late in both Super Bowls that were instrumental in those championships. He also played well in leading both of those teams to 4-0 postseason runs and beat the vaunted Patriots both times.
  2. Top 10 in multiple passing statistics - passing yards, passing TDs. People can rightfully point out that cumulative statistics can be accumulated with quantity and not quality, but these metrics are probably the two most discussed metrics in discussions about all-time QB performance/rankings.
  3. Started 222 consecutive games, including playoffs. That is the 4th longest QB streak in history, and the closest active player to passing him is Russell Wilson, who is at 143 consecutive starts... still 5 seasons away.
  4. Member of a famous NFL family and played in the media center of the US, so he got more attention/hype from day 1 of his career than most QBs of similar ability. He is also seemingly a genuinely good guy who is well liked by media, coaches, and teammates. All of this will help him with HOF voters.
While I don't think he generally measures up to most HOF QBs in level of QB play, that resume will get him in, and I think it should. He checks a lot of the typical criteria boxes, including sustained long term success, multiple championships, signature postseason moments, and famous (and not for negative reasons), which goes to the "it's the Hall of *Fame* argument.
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I agree, but the question becomes if Eli DIDN'T win the two Super Bowls . . . then what? Would ranking in the Top 10 in some cumulative career categories be enough to get him in the Hall? Eli ended his career with a CAREER TOTAL of ZERO MVP VOTES and ZERO All Pro selections in 16 regular seasons.

Yeah, I get it, he DID win those Super Bowls and those SB MVP's so it will be impossible to know what people would do voting wise if he didn't. We can only evaluate what actually happened, not what didn't happen (or could have happened). And as others have said in the past, you don't get to keep playing for 200+ games if you couldn't still play.

 
Anarchy99 said:
I agree, but the question becomes if Eli DIDN'T win the two Super Bowls . . . then what? Would ranking in the Top 10 in some cumulative career categories be enough to get him in the Hall? Eli ended his career with a CAREER TOTAL of ZERO MVP VOTES and ZERO All Pro selections in 16 regular seasons.

Yeah, I get it, he DID win those Super Bowls and those SB MVP's so it will be impossible to know what people would do voting wise if he didn't. We can only evaluate what actually happened, not what didn't happen (or could have happened). And as others have said in the past, you don't get to keep playing for 200+ games if you couldn't still play.
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I don't know why or for whom that "becomes the question." You said it yourself, we evaluate based on what happened, not what might have happened under different circumstances.

There are many permutations to "DIDN"T win the two Super Bowls." That could mean he won one and lost in the Super Bowl in the other. It could mean his teams lost in the first round in both of those postseasons. Not winning could have also changed organizational decisions about players, coaches, and front office personnel, which could have changed other things that would have impacted Eli's career. Etc. This is exactly why there is no real point in evaluating what if scenarios.

 
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Anarchy99 said:
I agree, but the question becomes if Eli DIDN'T win the two Super Bowls . . .
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Why do you keep bringing this up as if it's some big "gotcha" argument? No one disputes it, nor should thy. It's a MAJOR reason why he will get in.

 
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Of his 236 games played, how many times do you think the opposing DC said, "Oh ####!  We're facing Eli Manning!"

 
If all y'all can constantly discredit the individual 90's Cowboys HOF players based on the their collective greatness, then Eli gets that treatment ten-fold.......his defenses were the MVP's of those SB's......they kicked Tom Terrifics ###!!

 
Manster said:
If all y'all can constantly discredit the individual 90's Cowboys HOF players based on the their collective greatness, then Eli gets that treatment ten-fold.......his defenses were the MVP's of those SB's......they kicked Tom Terrifics ###!!
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Sorry dude, but everyone knows that QB is the only position that counts. Those other 52 guys mean nothing.

 
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