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***Detroit Tigers thread: 1st pick yet again, this is not fun*** (7 Viewers)

Well, I guess get your popcorn ready. Going to be a lot of second guessing on this board and a lot of it will be from me if this is the path. It is beyond little upsetting that Avila blew big, big money on the guys he did last year and is now eying moving a team leader such as Kinsler... and I'll still have to watch Frankenstein Pelfrey allow 11 hits per game and suffer through at least three months of Upton awfulness again next year.

 
Eephus said:
Makes sense to deal Kinsler coming off a productive year while he still has two below-market years on his contract. 

The rumored package from LA doesn't impress me at all.  Wood has had injury problems and I have doubts about Trayce Thompson being anything more than a 4th OF.  The most intriguing name is Mitchell White who pitched 22 sensational innings in the low minors in his professional debut.
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Right, I have been saying Kinsler is a valuable chip.  They have to be able to get more for him than what the Dodgers are offering.  What they are being offered right now makes no sense to accept.  What is the hurry in accepting that deal now instead of going through the GM meetings and trying to drive up the price. 

 
Bogart said:
It's going to have to be one hell of a year to leave 88 and a half million on the table. I feel like that is a contract that gets played out. Then at 33, he gets a nice twilight contract.
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Oh I agree, it's just wishful thinking on my part.  Funny how the contracts that Ilitch insists upon - Prince and Upton - end up being lousy ones.  I appreciate the intent being there but his sense of urgency resulted in some bad business decisions being made. 

 
There have already been Kinsler to the Giants for Panik and Heston and to the Pirates for Hansen and a pitcher rumors.  So...

 
I love Kinsler but he's about their only reasonable trade chip coming off yet another great season.  He'll be 35 next year, and although he's affordable, if they can get back a younger 2Bman and another piece at minimum, they should consider it.  I mean the interest is gonna be there, and it might not be there by July.  I don't see him falling off, he's about the hardest working guy in the game but he is gonna be 35. 

 
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Doctor Detroit said:
How do you know that's not exactly what he is doing? 

Everyone remain calm! 
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Well we have already seen what Avila's impatience was like in the first offseason. The first day of this one was no different. I'm calm until the next chip falls. It makes sense that people will be nervous over every rumor given Avila's brief but recent history at the helm.

 
The Dodgers could really use Kinsler as they are ready to win and Utley is done. Kinsler would be a big upgrade in the field and plate.  What two players would be a nice return?

Talk about bad singings and players that fell off the table.  Was looking at Carl Crawford's stats.  Crawford who just turned 35 has a combined WAR of 4.4 total in 6 seasons since leaving Tampa.  Boston did a nice job dumping him on LA.

 
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Bojang0301 said:
Well we have already seen what Avila's impatience was like in the first offseason. The first day of this one was no different. I'm calm until the next chip falls. It makes sense that people will be nervous over every rumor given Avila's brief but recent history at the helm.
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I don't think you can chalk up Maybin to impatience. He had a club option and a decision had to be made pretty quick on him. 

Last year he signed Zimmerman early in December but Upton wasn't signed until January. He got KRod right away, which was a pretty good move. Knowing what you want and doing it while everyone else is sleeping seems kinda smart to me. 

 
Doctor Detroit said:
I don't think you can chalk up Maybin to impatience. He had a club option and a decision had to be made pretty quick on him. 

Last year he signed Zimmerman early in December but Upton wasn't signed until January. He got KRod right away, which was a pretty good move. Knowing what you want and doing it while everyone else is sleeping seems kinda smart to me. 
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KRod was a nice deal. Cheap, not a lot of downside and Zimmerman looked like a steal until he got hurt. Upton was a mixed bag but they could have had Cepedes for the year. Instead Upton's albatross contract will be around for awhile and we can't just dismiss how awful it was to give Pelfrey a two-year deal when he should have barely been more than a non roster invitee. So, yes, I would discribe Avila's first offseason as impatient and costly in doing so. It is that impatience that has lead to his now complaint about the financial structure and insistence on rebuild. I think you agree with me though that they werent as far off as Avila is implying. If Zimmerman stays healthy all year and they split an Indians or Royals series they're in the playoffs. I can understand not wanting to hang your hat on too many guys over 35 but it will be more then disappointing to me to watch JD walk or get traded so that we can shoulder Upton's contract.

 
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With the JV/Miggy window getting smaller, I don't understand trading an affordable contract who was your best WAR offensive player at a position that you don't typically get that kind of production out of.

Granted, I'm a Kinsler homer, but at that price and my team in a "win now" mode, I would want him in my lineup for the next two years. The offer would have to really blow me away.

 
Bogart said:
With the JV/Miggy window getting smaller, I don't understand trading an affordable contract who was your best WAR offensive player at a position that you don't typically get that kind of production out of.

Granted, I'm a Kinsler homer, but at that price and my team in a "win now" mode, I would want him in my lineup for the next two years. The offer would have to really blow me away.
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Kinsler is also a very classy and likable guy.  I would hate to see him go.  Might be the best move three years down the road, but i would hate it in the short term.  

 
skillz said:
Oh I agree, it's just wishful thinking on my part.  Funny how the contracts that Ilitch insists upon - Prince and Upton - end up being lousy ones.  I appreciate the intent being there but his sense of urgency resulted in some bad business decisions being made. 
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This really underscores what the GM job entails in Detroit. Trying to do the best thing long term while having the owner & his family telling you their wish list. Not an easy high wire to balance for anyone and the only reason I'm not as critical of Dombrowski & Avila as most are.

 
I believe Kinsler has two years and a club option year left at below market price.  The way he is built and takes care of himself three more seasons at close to the level of last year seems reasonable to expect.   I would rather have 3 years of All-Star production out of second base position than a couple of prospects that may never pan out. Plus I enjoy watching Kinsler as he shows up to play everyday.

 
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Bogart said:
With the JV/Miggy window getting smaller...
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Is it?  Did you see what JV did this year?  Pitchers on HOF tracks often have some of their best years north of 30. 

Miggy is one of the best right-handed hitters in the history of baseball and is often compared most closely to Hank Aaron.  Aaron had a .940 OPS in years 34-39, something a healthy Cabrera can replicate IMO. 

These two guys are the face of the franchise and right now are performing at a high level.  Pitchers are more susceptible to injuries and regression overall, but Verlander has A+ mechanics and he showed that when he is completely healthy like he was this year, he still is one of the best pitchers in baseball.  To me the Kinsler argument has nothing to do with either of these guys. 

What I do find most entertaining on the Kinsler argument is fans are wanting to sell, sell, sell in June when the team is .500 but are completely against selling in the off-season just a few months later.  I don't really think they need to trade Kinsler but his value is never going to be higher than it is right now, so considering moving him is good baseball business. 

 
Doctor Detroit said:
Is it?  Did you see what JV did this year?  Pitchers on HOF tracks often have some of their best years north of 30. 

Miggy is one of the best right-handed hitters in the history of baseball and is often compared most closely to Hank Aaron.  Aaron had a .940 OPS in years 34-39, something a healthy Cabrera can replicate IMO. 

These two guys are the face of the franchise and right now are performing at a high level.  Pitchers are more susceptible to injuries and regression overall, but Verlander has A+ mechanics and he showed that when he is completely healthy like he was this year, he still is one of the best pitchers in baseball.  To me the Kinsler argument has nothing to do with either of these guys. 

What I do find most entertaining on the Kinsler argument is fans are wanting to sell, sell, sell in June when the team is .500 but are completely against selling in the off-season just a few months later.  I don't really think they need to trade Kinsler but his value is never going to be higher than it is right now, so considering moving him is good baseball business. 
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Calm down man. I didn't mean disrespect to either guy. Every single one of us, our window is getting smaller. We are all day to day, someone once said. Age catches up with all of us. And I'll gladly bet a bottle of your favorite spirit on Miggy having an 0.940 OPS for years 34-39, and gladly pay up if he does.

With these two, high level guys on your team (making a #### ton of money), why you trade the guy with your best offensive WAR and second best on the team, while on a team friendly contract makes no sense. If you trade Kinsler now, and I was a fan of this team, I would think that the front office didn't think they had a contender for the 2017 season.

 
A lot of people say what you said.  I'm calm, I wasn't even trying to be combative there.  Miggy will earn his money for sure and JV will at least still be eating 200+ innings at the end of his contract. 

Also interestingly, the sudden tightening of the belt is coming as the Illitch family is having cost overruns on the new arena downtown.  They have to pay anything above $450 million and right now the estimates are coming in at $675 million and likely to go higher.  Plus they already ponied up $200 million to pay the bond debt and maybe the best franchise in sports over the past quarter century, which will be the main tenant of the new arena, look pretty gross this year. 

 
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Doctor Detroit said:
A lot of people say what you said.  I'm calm, I wasn't even trying to be combative there.  Miggy will earn his money for sure and JV will at least still be eating 200+ innings at the end of his contract. 

Also interestingly, the sudden tightening of the belt is coming as the Illitch family is having cost overruns on the new arena downtown.  They have to pay anything above $450 million and right now the estimates are coming in at $675 million and likely to go higher.  Plus they already ponied up $200 million to pay the bond debt and maybe the best franchise in sports over the past quarter century, which will be the main tenant of the new arena, look pretty gross this year. 
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I wonder if getting the Pistons to move there from the Palace would help balance their budget. Maybe not right away but to improve their down the road revenue.

 
Reported that Avila has called Miggy, Verlander, JD, Kinsler, JUP and Victor and said you will probably be hearing your names tossed around in possible trades.

 
Da Guru said:
50-50 he sells the team if something happens to Mike. Illitch.  Gilbert or Gores would make sense with what is going on downtown.
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The GOP has talked about abolishing the Estate Tax.  This will probably have more impact on the Tigers' future than anything else happening in the off-season.

 
Eephus said:
The GOP has talked about abolishing the Estate Tax.  This will probably have more impact on the Tigers' future than anything else happening in the off-season.
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I believe the team is set up under Illitch Holdings... not sure if that affects anything or not 

 
People #####ing about the Anibal or Pelfrey contract should look at Jeremy Hellickson getting $17.2 million in arbitration.  Pitching costs too much now and you have to develop guys from within to fill at least two SP slots.  Tigers have a controllable Norris, Boyd, and Fulmer and also have some decent farm arms.  JZimm and JV are fine in the big picture as far as money spent, but there is no doubt that this team is not going to be going after starting pitching anytime soon.  Hopefully the young guys can stay healthy, but either Anibal or Pelfrey and maybe both, will have to eat some innings next year. 

 
Doctor Detroit said:
People #####ing about the Anibal or Pelfrey contract should look at Jeremy Hellickson getting $17.2 million in arbitration.  Pitching costs too much now and you have to develop guys from within to fill at least two SP slots.  Tigers have a controllable Norris, Boyd, and Fulmer and also have some decent farm arms.  JZimm and JV are fine in the big picture as far as money spent, but there is no doubt that this team is not going to be going after starting pitching anytime soon.  Hopefully the young guys can stay healthy, but either Anibal or Pelfrey and maybe both, will have to eat some innings next year. 
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Hopefully they can keep that starting pitching core for some time and reconfigure the position players/bullpen while staying somewhat competitive.

 
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Once again it's a logical fallacy to defend the Pelfrey contract by pointing out others ####ty contracts. That doesn't make Pelfreys contracts not awful, it is. I was laughed at on this board when I suggested Brett Anderson on a one year deal through 2015 and then told Al Simon was an acceptable person for the #5 role. I'm not backing down on Pelfrey's #### sandwich contract. Pretty sure I can find someone to go out and try to get batters to hit ground balls for 5 or 6 innings for about 7.3 million less a year.

 
Bojang0301 said:
Once again it's a logical fallacy to defend the Pelfrey contract by pointing out others ####ty contracts. That doesn't make Pelfreys contracts not awful, it is. I was laughed at on this board when I suggested Brett Anderson on a one year deal through 2015 and then told Al Simon was an acceptable person for the #5 role. I'm not backing down on Pelfrey's #### sandwich contract. Pretty sure I can find someone to go out and try to get batters to hit ground balls for 5 or 6 innings for about 7.3 million less a year.
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You make no sense at all. 

No one is defending the Pelfrey contract, it's just not as terrible as people think. If he had eaten 150 innings last year, even pitching like that, he was worth $8 mill. 

Brett Anderson? Ok, yeah he's a stud. :mellow:   He earned $16 million last year and had a 12 ERA. He's a free agent now though, hope we run out and get him and Fister. 

 
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Doctor Detroit said:
You make no sense at all. 

No one is defending the Pelfrey contract, it's just not as terrible as people think. If he had eaten 150 innings last year, even pitching like that, he was worth $8 mill. 

Brett Anderson? Ok, yeah he's a stud. :mellow:   He earned $16 million last year and had a 12 ERA. He's a free agent now though, hope we run out and get him and Fister. 
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In 2015, Brett Anderson was a good #5 and you were crying about him being $10 mil back then. You constantly bend rhetoric around here to make yourself sound like some guru. 

Now it's acceptable that we'll lose Kinsler and JD, in part, because of Pelfrey's #### deal. Give me a break. That's the difference between Philly forking $17 for Hellickson or the Dodgers risking $10 on Anderson two years ago, it didn't bind their hands at the trade deadline and it didn't cause them to lose/trade important players the next offseason because it had the foresight to be a 1 year deal. Did the Dodgers error on Anderson this season? Yes, doesn't change the story.

 
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Really? Do you guys just have a magic eraser in your heads? Avila, while not talking about Pelfrey specifically, said money bound his hands at the deadline. The damage Pelfrey did was already done and any money issues are a continuance, at least in part, because of him. Admittedly the tail ends of VMart + Sanchez are not helping, nor is Upton.

 
And for the record, I'm just frustrated by what transpired last offseason to now selling off great players who I've enjoyed watching for 3 good months of JUpton(ask the DBacks, Padres and Braves how good that works) and a dude that allows 11 hits per game. 

 
Bojang0301 said:
Really? Do you guys just have a magic eraser in your heads? Avila, while not talking about Pelfrey specifically, said money bound his hands at the deadline. The damage Pelfrey did was already done and any money issues are a continuance, at least in part, because of him. Admittedly the tail ends of VMart + Sanchez are not helping, nor is Upton.
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That has nothing to do with JD and Kinsler.  

 
I don't remember "crying" about Brett Anderson, seems like a silly thing to cry about. 

And as Mac said, pelfrey has nothing to do with them trimming salary. He's $8 million, that's peanuts. Now JZImm and Jups deals, yeah. 

 
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