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***Detroit Tigers thread: 1st pick yet again, this is not fun*** (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter Doctor Detroit
- Start date
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Lots of really dumb baseball fans out there. The one that says she'd trade Verlander for middling prospects and eat a bunch of his salary doesn't approve.
Well, there's that.
Well, there's that.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Not true, I love my Tigers, I just want them to realize this run is over and start fresh. Every team goes through a bad period, 12 years of mostly competing for World Series titles is awesome. I loved the mini rebuild Dave did when he sold off Price and others, and while it is still early the only guy that has really worked out was Fulmer, but I still like what they did.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Instead of letting him waste the rest of his career here for the next 3 years. The guy has been a horse for us, get him to a winner. He will always be a Tiger and go into the Hall as a Tiger.
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Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
your passion 
Encyclopedia Brown
Footballguy
I am glad it is Candelario and not Happ.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Don't salary dump JV tomorrow, no need for that unless we are getting a really good prospect return and not eating any salary beyond this year.
They already picked up Kinsler option, can deal him in offseason.
Let's kick some Yankee ###!
They already picked up Kinsler option, can deal him in offseason.
Let's kick some Yankee ###!
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
Maybe it's just old school thinking but getting two high potential everyday players for a mid level closer with 1 year of arb and a rental catcher is a pretty good haul. I also like that Avila didn't force there having to be an OF'er involved. Take the best haul. Really would love if they could find a way to move VMart before next season. Get Castellanos or Candelario over to 1B and get Miggy to DH. I don't, and would hope the team, wouldn't care if he likes it or not. Having to have him play injured at first all season is a big part of the reason that this team is a mess.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
whoknew
Footballguy
Why? Happ is 22 and already proving it in MLB. WIth lots of power. There was no way the Cubs were going to give up Happ but that would've been awesome.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Some were complaining about all the infielders but we don't know what Iggy & Ian's futures are. Also heard that of their top 10 prospects going in, 7 were pitchers & 3 were outfielders. Radio guy also said that Tigers now have 4 of top 100 prospects in baseball, slightly above the average for a 30 team league.
Wrigley
Footballguy
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
MrJimiT
Footballguy
This is interesting regarding career WAR. Regardless, during their era of playing...Trammel & Whitaker were among the best and in my humble opinion is what needs to be looked at AS WELL AS career numbers. I am also partial to Jack Morris getting in as well.
Individually Trammel and Whitaker are well deserving of the HOF. As a pair, they are the GOAT as a double-play combo and it is an absolute crime they are not in.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Baseball America thinks Parades has top prospect upside. He's so young it's hard to say what will happen, but the potential is there. He's like at least 3 years out from Detroit so we'll see.
Im in Michigan for two weeks, might go down to GR to see him.
Im in Michigan for two weeks, might go down to GR to see him.
skillz
Footballguy
My co-worker is a huge Cubs fan and a baseball nut. His brother writes about baseball for a publication. Here is what he said about the trade from a Cubs' fan perspective:
Here are my thoughts:
1. Candelario - he's one of the few hold overs left in the organization from the Hendry era (pre-Theo). His development has been inconsistent. In part, this has been because he's struggled with his fitness level from time-to-time. He's taken fitness more seriously the past 2.5 years and this seems to have helped his development. He's a switch hitter. I've seen him play a few times and he's got some power from the left side and is a bit more of a gaps hitter from the right side (I don't know if the stats reflect my observation). The hit tool isn't bad. For the last couple of years, he's looked like a major league hitter, albiet one who can produce at a solid, but not spectacular level. His plate discipline has improved substantially since Theo's player development crew took over. This hasn't yet translated in his short trips to the majors but it appears he has the potential to get on base. He looks like the sort of hitter who is good enough to start in the majors but will probably never be much more than the 15-20th best third baseman. He'll put up average, not monster numbers. Fielding wise, he's looked sufficient-to-average since he improved his fitness. He should be a better fielder than Castellanos, although I suppose that's not much of a compliment (Candelario deserves a better compliment than that). He deserved to be a mid-season top 100 prospect this year, as he was by many ranking systems. He's not going to be a star but should be playing in the majors right now. Obviously he was blocked in Chicago with Bryant at 3rd and Rizzo at 1st. He looked great in spring training this year and got out of the gate hot but has struggled since he was passed over for Ian Happ when the Cubs needed to add someone. I assume his acquisition means Castellanos is ticketed for DH or LF.
2. I like Paredes more than Robert does. There's a lot to be interested in. We bought him out of Mexico a couple of years back (using the loophole that He has a nice looking hit tool that projects as at least average and a bit of pop. He also walks incredibly well for a young player. The most important thing to know is he's an 18 year old holding his own in Midwest League. There is plenty of room for projection. He's not naturally quick or fluid in the field and is already getting a bit top heavy. He doesn't look likely to stick at SS and is most likely a 2b or 3b. He's reasonably far away from the majors at this point but was one of the more interesting players left in our system after we gutted it to acquire Chapman and Quintana. Obviously he's far enough away that a lot can go wrong still but he looks like the sort of player who can be an average-to-above average regular at 3b or 2b.
Overall, I like this for the Cubs in the our prospect capital is low at this point and it fills our two biggest holes. Its hard to complain about a team that remains all in.
I don't think this is a bad deal for the Tigers though. Definitely better than the JD deal, pending how the prospects develop.
The price feels a bit steep for a rental catcher so I have to believe that the extra year of control over Wilson is what pushed Theo to include these two.
Here are my thoughts:
1. Candelario - he's one of the few hold overs left in the organization from the Hendry era (pre-Theo). His development has been inconsistent. In part, this has been because he's struggled with his fitness level from time-to-time. He's taken fitness more seriously the past 2.5 years and this seems to have helped his development. He's a switch hitter. I've seen him play a few times and he's got some power from the left side and is a bit more of a gaps hitter from the right side (I don't know if the stats reflect my observation). The hit tool isn't bad. For the last couple of years, he's looked like a major league hitter, albiet one who can produce at a solid, but not spectacular level. His plate discipline has improved substantially since Theo's player development crew took over. This hasn't yet translated in his short trips to the majors but it appears he has the potential to get on base. He looks like the sort of hitter who is good enough to start in the majors but will probably never be much more than the 15-20th best third baseman. He'll put up average, not monster numbers. Fielding wise, he's looked sufficient-to-average since he improved his fitness. He should be a better fielder than Castellanos, although I suppose that's not much of a compliment (Candelario deserves a better compliment than that). He deserved to be a mid-season top 100 prospect this year, as he was by many ranking systems. He's not going to be a star but should be playing in the majors right now. Obviously he was blocked in Chicago with Bryant at 3rd and Rizzo at 1st. He looked great in spring training this year and got out of the gate hot but has struggled since he was passed over for Ian Happ when the Cubs needed to add someone. I assume his acquisition means Castellanos is ticketed for DH or LF.
2. I like Paredes more than Robert does. There's a lot to be interested in. We bought him out of Mexico a couple of years back (using the loophole that He has a nice looking hit tool that projects as at least average and a bit of pop. He also walks incredibly well for a young player. The most important thing to know is he's an 18 year old holding his own in Midwest League. There is plenty of room for projection. He's not naturally quick or fluid in the field and is already getting a bit top heavy. He doesn't look likely to stick at SS and is most likely a 2b or 3b. He's reasonably far away from the majors at this point but was one of the more interesting players left in our system after we gutted it to acquire Chapman and Quintana. Obviously he's far enough away that a lot can go wrong still but he looks like the sort of player who can be an average-to-above average regular at 3b or 2b.
Overall, I like this for the Cubs in the our prospect capital is low at this point and it fills our two biggest holes. Its hard to complain about a team that remains all in.
I don't think this is a bad deal for the Tigers though. Definitely better than the JD deal, pending how the prospects develop.
The price feels a bit steep for a rental catcher so I have to believe that the extra year of control over Wilson is what pushed Theo to include these two.
skillz
Footballguy
This is what his brother said:
Mike and I talk a lot, so we're generally on the same page here.
One thing Mike didn't mention on Jeimer: he's only a 3B/1B defensively. Every tool is a 50 or 55 (average or slightly above) except for his speed. He doesn't move well and he's young, so he only figures to slow down going forward. Still, he draws walks, has a good hit tool, and hits for some power. He's a good-looking, MLB-ready 3B.
My beef with Paredes is his body. He's awfully soft for a guy who has been in pro ball for two years already. There's oodles of natural hitting ability but I don't see how he stays up the middle long-term, at which point there's a lot of pressure on his power to emerge.
Not a bad second piece here for the Tigers by any stretch as most folks like Paredes a lot more than me.
Mike and I talk a lot, so we're generally on the same page here.
One thing Mike didn't mention on Jeimer: he's only a 3B/1B defensively. Every tool is a 50 or 55 (average or slightly above) except for his speed. He doesn't move well and he's young, so he only figures to slow down going forward. Still, he draws walks, has a good hit tool, and hits for some power. He's a good-looking, MLB-ready 3B.
My beef with Paredes is his body. He's awfully soft for a guy who has been in pro ball for two years already. There's oodles of natural hitting ability but I don't see how he stays up the middle long-term, at which point there's a lot of pressure on his power to emerge.
Not a bad second piece here for the Tigers by any stretch as most folks like Paredes a lot more than me.
Tom Servo
Nittany Beavers
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
MAC_32
Footballguy
Thing is, there's no need to rush Candelario. He's not good enough to need to find a place in the lineup. He could change that with improved performance, but that's a bridge to cross when that time comes. What acquiring him does is offer options for later. Is later December 2017? July 2018? December 2018? Even later?
But it doesn't matter. There's no need to rush any decision. When the right opportunity presents itself the org is ready to make a move though.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
I hated 2 things about this deadline. 1st they did the least they could do, the run for this version is over. Avelia only went after infielders, because that is what the system needed. I hate that approach. Get the best prospects, especially pitching. It is way easier to trade premium pitching, whether prospects or major leagues, and fill holes then it is positional players. See the JD deal.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
People thinking we haven't got our money's worth out of JUP shuke me. He's team MVP this year and almost got us in the playoffs last year with his red 
summer.
It was reported he will opt out this winter. I'd like to see him in RF in 2018.
summer. It was reported he will opt out this winter. I'd like to see him in RF in 2018.
Dan Lambskin
Footballguy
Yeah I don't get that one.People thinking we haven't got our money's worth out of JUP shuke me. He's team MVP this year and almost got us in the playoffs last year with his red
It was reported he will opt out this winter. I'd like to see him in RF in 2018.
Although I would like to see him opt out just because I think we're in for a long rebuild
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
The thing about it is the players on this roster aren't bad. If they had a good bullpen they'd be Royalsesque. Lots of good arms on the farm, I think if they were in contention right now the illitch kids would buy.
They need an influx of youth for sure, but imo this train isn't jumping the tracks just yet.
I'll third this. This isn't a sky is falling "OMG SELL EVERYONE" scenario.
JD was gone anyway and there was no OF demand. They got a decent haul imo for a backup catcher and JWil who, (and I'll agree with Daisy here) probably was at his max sell point.
JV, Kinsler, and Miggy are still gonna put asses in the seats for the foreseeable future. Bottom line matters...
JD was gone anyway and there was no OF demand. They got a decent haul imo for a backup catcher and JWil who, (and I'll agree with Daisy here) probably was at his max sell point.
JV, Kinsler, and Miggy are still gonna put asses in the seats for the foreseeable future. Bottom line matters...
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
Whether people like it or not a lot of next years roster will be largely unchanged. The good news is a lot of money is cleared with Pefrey, Anibal, Lowe coming off the books, not having to pay arb for Wilson and JD obviously not being on the books either. If Alex wants to take another 1yr deal I could see that happening but I don't think I'd like to see JD come back unless Upton opts out. In which case, by all means. I anticipate this offseason to be an unpopular one. They have no reason to invest in starting pitching that always makes a splash. This is a good thing in reality though. I think the best thing to look at are where are the logjams and where are the holes?
Relief pitching has to be a priority this offseason and no stupid Mark Lowe type patches that ultimately hurt the ability to spend on need. I'm guessing Rondon will still be around until his fat ### gets hurt. Because 98 mph. Sure, whatever. Hopefully Jiminez and maybe even Labourt get shots at roles. Pat Neshek, Shang Hwan-Oh, Addison Reed, Brandon Kintzler, Wade Davis, Yusmeiro Petit, Bud Norris and Drew Storen are free agents. There is zero excuse for Avila to not find relief.
If JUp stays I don't think they'll be active in looking for a CF/RF'er. Mahtook should probably man RF and looks like he could potentially be more then adequate to do so. The trouble then turns to the readiness of Christian Stewart and Jacoby Jones. I assume Stewart will be in Triple A most, if not all of next year. Jones on the other hand was tapped early this year to play CF. Free agent options include a whirlwind of savvy vets that should be available at a reasonable price. I would love to see Granderson don an old English D again if they are comfortable with Mahtook manning CF.
The troubling log jam comes at the corner IF/DH positions. As was mentioned, VMart carries full 10/5 rights and no one will want any part of his salary. While he can still get on base, he's a complete albatross. Candelario is ready by all accounts. Miggy needs to get out of the field and I'm not sure it would take much better fielding to upgrade over Nick at 3B. I see no place for VMart on this team. One way or the other they are going to have to eat his salary and deal with the pain of it. If they do wish to give Candelario another year down I just can not see a way VMart is on the team in a constructive way in 2019. This isn't like Anibal where he can go back to playing in the field. I believe that Miggy will be a good hitter for the majority of the rest of his contract but this ridiculousness of pretending him being out in the field is an ok idea needs to end.
Relief pitching has to be a priority this offseason and no stupid Mark Lowe type patches that ultimately hurt the ability to spend on need. I'm guessing Rondon will still be around until his fat ### gets hurt. Because 98 mph. Sure, whatever. Hopefully Jiminez and maybe even Labourt get shots at roles. Pat Neshek, Shang Hwan-Oh, Addison Reed, Brandon Kintzler, Wade Davis, Yusmeiro Petit, Bud Norris and Drew Storen are free agents. There is zero excuse for Avila to not find relief.
If JUp stays I don't think they'll be active in looking for a CF/RF'er. Mahtook should probably man RF and looks like he could potentially be more then adequate to do so. The trouble then turns to the readiness of Christian Stewart and Jacoby Jones. I assume Stewart will be in Triple A most, if not all of next year. Jones on the other hand was tapped early this year to play CF. Free agent options include a whirlwind of savvy vets that should be available at a reasonable price. I would love to see Granderson don an old English D again if they are comfortable with Mahtook manning CF.
The troubling log jam comes at the corner IF/DH positions. As was mentioned, VMart carries full 10/5 rights and no one will want any part of his salary. While he can still get on base, he's a complete albatross. Candelario is ready by all accounts. Miggy needs to get out of the field and I'm not sure it would take much better fielding to upgrade over Nick at 3B. I see no place for VMart on this team. One way or the other they are going to have to eat his salary and deal with the pain of it. If they do wish to give Candelario another year down I just can not see a way VMart is on the team in a constructive way in 2019. This isn't like Anibal where he can go back to playing in the field. I believe that Miggy will be a good hitter for the majority of the rest of his contract but this ridiculousness of pretending him being out in the field is an ok idea needs to end.
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
Maybe because of this they didn't trade for pitching prospects: http://www.baseballamerica.com/minors/2017-detroit-tigers-midseason-top-10-prospects/#6SSreZpDclgt0ePR.97msudaisy26 said:
Also the starting rotation is set for the foreseeable future. That is a luxury most teams do not have.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
I see the readiness of Christin Stewart being a big thing in terms of setting up the outfield with more than JUP & a patchwork of AAA guys they have now. Even more so if JUP opts out of here. There are things that can be done with the infield situation, but as mentioned above, there are all predicated on VMart saying adios.
MAC_32
Footballguy
I don't think anyone disagrees that the pen needs addressed, but I think making it a priority is a mistake. If a title were a reasonable possibility then I'd feel otherwise, but based on July actions it appears as though this group is white flagging 2018. The division anyway. Performance could make for a viable wildcard contender and if that happens then maybe you look to make a deal like the Cubs did for Wilson this year to shore up the back end. If performance isn't there? Set sights where they probably are already - 2019.
I'm always a proponent for digging around trying to find this year's Mike Minor or Travis Shaw and given the state of this team throwing several darts trying to find a guy or 3 like them rather than 1 at a guy like Boone Logan is the right play. Now's the time to try to find value, not priority free agents.
I'm always a proponent for digging around trying to find this year's Mike Minor or Travis Shaw and given the state of this team throwing several darts trying to find a guy or 3 like them rather than 1 at a guy like Boone Logan is the right play. Now's the time to try to find value, not priority free agents.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
I think the bullpen can be addressed from within by 2019 with all the arms on the way. They still probably need to spend some on some type of proven pen arm and then try to sign guys who are in the wind. I'm not sure why but the Tigers never seem to land a Kirby Yates type, someone who went through a couple of teams then comes in and is superb just like that.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
That is just a bad way to look at things. Not the Tigers, you or I know if they rotation is set.
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
Explain to me how it isn't set? Do you think they'll give up on Norris? That or injury between now and the end of the season is the only way I see it not being set. You add nothing to this conversation with your random criticisms. Sorry it's been a bad year, but bad years happen. So what do you see because this is what I do:
JV: large contract, no trade clause. 1 year separated from a Cy Young level season and fastball averaging highest velocity since 2011.
Zimmerman: barely a back end guy this season but could be a mirage. $60 something mil left to go after this season. He's not going anywhere. Too high of cost and not bad enough to remove from the staff. Still has the ability to be a mid level guy if he can get his stuff together.
Fulmer: Locked in.
Norris: reminds me when Max struggled at the beginning of his tenure here. Another lefty also struggled out the gates that they parted with too soon by the name of Robbie Ray. They better not make the same mistake twice.
Boyd: Often times looks the part of a high end back of the rotation type pitcher. Worse talents have more then survived with saavy. Not even in arbitration yet.
They have top prospects in Faedo, Manning, Funkhouser and Burrows. Are they supposed to go play middle infield or OF? Avila has foresight here. Iglesias offense is always going to be a hinderence and I doubt he survives all of his arbitration years. He went out and got two high potential SS and in Lugo a guy who could potentially play the position in '19 with a above average bat. Pitching is the one thing the system actually has pretty good depth in. Unfortunately at the professional level the bullpen is probably the worst in baseball.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Ask the Mets how their rotation looked a couple years ago and now it is horrible. You have no idea if Norris or Boyd will work out. How do you know Zimmerman doesn't implode like Sanchez and end up in the bullpen or DFA'ed in 2 years. Your personal attack and logic are extremely flawed.
By time the Tigers are ready to compete again JV will be gone, Zimmerman maybe on his last year or in the bullpen.
So really you have 1 sure starter in Fulmer, 2 maybes and 2 guys that will be gone. Where is this for sure locked up rotation, were we couldn't use pitching prospects that won't even be here for 2 or 3 years?
Plus pitching brings back more value. You can never have too many pitchers. You can always trade an "extra" pitching prospect and get an infielder.
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Dan Lambskin
Footballguy
Norris sucks
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Is that JZimm's best start of the year? Man he was good today.
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
JV placed on revocable waivers...
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
Agreed, trying to get the trade everyone crowd riled up. It honestly amazes me how losing brings out the stupidity in people. Had to listen to someone ##### for a good hour today about how Miggy, VMart and JV should have been traded. Will probably give me a brain aneurism if I think about it hard enough. Why people don't think this team can't compete in 2019 is beyond me? Miggy is playing through this back injury which is sort of dumb in my opinion but he is not the hitter his states indicate. JV has been JV the past month plus not counting the horrid Indians game. JJ is up and I can't wait for him to get an extended look. Candelario will probably put Nick out into LF or RF and if his hard contact ever dismisses the bad luck he has he will prove himself to be a pretty damn good hitter. They don't have to invest money in starting pitching which people can't see through the forest how big of a deal that is considering the stupid contracts handed out for them in recent seasons. Depending on where they want payroll Avila has a lot of flexibility to change the team this offseason.
Also, are we going to acknowledge that Avila may have made two of the biggest steals of the offseason in acquiring Mikie Mahtook and Alex Avila or are we still crucifying him for the obvious market that didn't exist for OF'er? I had a pretty big problem with the initial JD deal but it's clear they may have been in a worse position if they let that deal pass.
Dan Lambskin
Footballguy
Sorry but I think that Miggy nagging injury is gonna be an excuse the rest of his career. He's declining and I don't expect some miraculous rebound. If I could get out from under that contract I'd do it in a heartbeat
Limp Ditka
Footballguy
Dan Lambskin
Footballguy
That or go see A-rod for some boli
Seems like every year we have this conversation about him though. It's becoming the norm not the exception. I just don't see how people can be optimistic as he gets older and piles more wear and tear on that body
Dan Lambskin
Footballguy
msudaisy26
Footballguy
How do you think they will compete? In 2019 half this roster is likely to be turned over. I am not saying they can't, but we really have no idea who will be on this team.
I agree with Dan about Might. Since his triple crown year it seems like he gets hurt earlier in the season every year since and either tries to gut through it or is out. Maybe his body is failing him.
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
Because this team isn't as bad as you and everyone else assumes just because it's been a bad year. Yes, some key components have had down years and they needed youth. They were also locked into this team last offseason due to salary constraints. Now they have money coming free, have young pieces that will be given a chance at the MLB level (Jimenez, Jones, Candelario). They make a major bullpen addition and add an arm with upside they can easily compete in the #### show that is the central. The MLB had ~18 teams within 5 games of a wildcard birth at the deadline. The question is why the #### wouldn't we try to compete? You get into the playoffs and anything can happen. If Upton opts out, that would be the move that would make me believe that they would highly struggle to be in the thick next year. And there is even upside to that as it will give freedom to spending where they want to spend. I don't think it is too outlandish to see Norris develop into a quality starter despite the superior analytical analysis of some fans in this thread. Mahtook was one of the best players in baseball in July. I am far more bullish about this team then most fans right now.
The areas I am least excited about are the middle infield and what to do with VMart. I'm guessing VMart stays because it's a lot of salary to eat even if they could get something in return and he was to waive his 10/5. This means that Nick will probably be who goes to a corner OF position where I anticipate he will also be subpar defensively out there. Iglesias I am not a huge fan of but I haven't put much effort into seeing how good he is defensively to see if he makes up for the atrocious offense. Machado has shown some ability to hit but I doubt he's a solution either. It would probably be best to keep Kinsler into next season unless they have some plan to get a 2B before next year.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
I don't think they will contend for a couple years because of a few factors.
1. The payroll is going to go down, Mike Illitch was an owner and a fan and wanted a world series title before he went out and didn't care about spending extra money to do it.
2. There are too many unknowns for 2019, Verlander might be done, or he might be an ace still, but I am not counting on it, Kinsler will be gone, Upton maybe gone, JD is gone, Miggy will be older and if the last few years have shown us anything he is going to be hurt a lot, Zimmerman could be done, and we have no idea if Boyd, and Norris will work out, plus the bullpen.
3. The central might be bad this year, but they won't stay bad, and actually they aren't as bad as you think. The Twins are up and coming, the White Sox just got a lot of young talent that could start coming into their own in a couple of years, and Cleveland will still be good for a couple more years.
4. I would slow down with the Mahtook thing, I hope he works out, but Chris Shelton, Boesch. You can't judge a player off of one month.
5. Didn't Nick try a corner outfield spot in the minors for a while and it was a disaster?
Sure if everything falls into place you could have 2006 all over again, but you can't count on that.
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