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Suicide (2 Viewers)

Henry Ford said:
Two books, one much longer than the other, drastically changed the way I interact with people and the way I interpret what other people say.

Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert M. Pirsig)
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What was your overall impression of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert M. Pirsig? I'm curious to hear your thoughts on how it influenced you.  It seems like the kind of book I can pick up again and start where I left off, so I'm not putting it off forever, I just found it a little tired and needed a break.

 
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wazoo11 said:
What was your overall impression of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert M. Pirsig? I'm curious to hear your thoughts on how it influenced you.  It seems like the kind of book I can pick up again and start where I left off, so I'm not putting it off forever, I just found it a little tired and needed a break.
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It's contemplative to the point of masturbatory at times, obsessive in its delving into minutiae, and pretty dense.  It's also remarkably insightful, refuses to apologize for a borderline mentally disturbed viewpoint that should be considered sane in many ways in opposition to modern society, and has amazing expertise to share about the human condition and the way we deal with experience in different ways - and how to let people experience things differently and still respect their viewpoints. 

 
At the time I first read it, I was really having trouble understanding socially acceptable reactions, emotions, and social mores. It really gave me a perspective I needed to start to "fit in" in society, which has never been my strong suit. 

 
On a more serious note, I was terminated from a volunteering position. It was a Saturday morning gig to help out at a historical park. Depression and anxiety ####### sucks. The night of I couldn't fall asleep and have only missed two shifts. Live and learn I guess? 

 
wazoo11 said:
On a more serious note, I was terminated from a volunteering position. It was a Saturday morning gig to help out at a historical park. Depression and anxiety ####### sucks. The night of I couldn't fall asleep and have only missed two shifts. Live and learn I guess? 
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Wow, what a harsh place. If you like volunteering don't give up on it, Plenty of places love whatever they can get. Maybe find a place where you can just show up if you can and not have a schedule. Some places if they know of your issue will probably work with you, like in the areas of helping people. People who are volunteering to help others tend to have a bigger heart, esp if they know it'd help you as well.

 
I recently had my first physical in forever. As part of the physical there is a questionnaire regarding depression and alcohol consumption. In the past I have always fudged to outright lied on these things due to stupidity and embarrassment. This time I went full truth. My doctor looked at the alcohol one and told me this is what they used to call a functioning alcoholic. We both had a chuckle and moved on. I would agree I am a functioning  alcoholic and a better then average one.

On to the depression one. He looked at that and asked if I thought I had a problem. I said yes I do and if I could afford it I would get help. He started saying "Well at least you haven't made any suicide plans" I stopped him there and said yes I have. I have come up with a few scenarios and I am scared. After talking a bit he said my insurance wouldn't cover any help but he would wright me an rx if I wanted. Now this is a pcp so I figure he knows very little about anti depressive drugs. I asked if the drugs would make me a zombie and he pretty much said yeah. I ended up declining the rx.

My question is where does someone go if they need help but they have no funds for the help?

I have been having a VERY rough time recently. I did come up with a suicide plan that would look like an accident. I figure the family will get the life insurance and the kids wont have the stigma of a father who killed himself. I HAVE NO PLANS ON FOLLOWING THROUGH WITH THIS but I am freaked out that I am even coming up with a plan.

I did spend time doing a search on can you kill yourself with................. Turns out suicide is not as easy with drugs as I thought. 

 
prosopis said:
I recently had my first physical in forever. As part of the physical there is a questionnaire regarding depression and alcohol consumption. In the past I have always fudged to outright lied on these things due to stupidity and embarrassment. This time I went full truth. My doctor looked at the alcohol one and told me this is what they used to call a functioning alcoholic. We both had a chuckle and moved on. I would agree I am a functioning  alcoholic and a better then average one.

On to the depression one. He looked at that and asked if I thought I had a problem. I said yes I do and if I could afford it I would get help. He started saying "Well at least you haven't made any suicide plans" I stopped him there and said yes I have. I have come up with a few scenarios and I am scared. After talking a bit he said my insurance wouldn't cover any help but he would wright me an rx if I wanted. Now this is a pcp so I figure he knows very little about anti depressive drugs. I asked if the drugs would make me a zombie and he pretty much said yeah. I ended up declining the rx.

My question is where does someone go if they need help but they have no funds for the help?

I have been having a VERY rough time recently. I did come up with a suicide plan that would look like an accident. I figure the family will get the life insurance and the kids wont have the stigma of a father who killed himself. I HAVE NO PLANS ON FOLLOWING THROUGH WITH THIS but I am freaked out that I am even coming up with a plan.

I did spend time doing a search on can you kill yourself with................. Turns out suicide is not as easy with drugs as I thought. 
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Congrats on acknowledging the depression and your alcohol consumption. It's possible you've been trying to self medicate with alcohol for years and that never works long term. A first great step is to make a decision that if you ever get to the point of self harm that you will take immediate action no matter what the financial or emotional costs are. Depression has a way of deceiving one into doubting his/her worth and tricking that individual into thinking their family would be better off without them... it's a lie.

In our area there is a religious-based company that offers counseling on a sliding scale, i.e. based on what you can pay. This is different than a psychiatrist who can prescribe meds but doesn't offer counseling. Most counties have a community mental health dept that you could check with for free counseling. I think psychiatrists charge about $85/session and they see patients every 2-4 months. If you are comfortable with exploring other options maybe check out free online listener  with options to upgrade to online counseling with a professional. If you decide down the road that you want to try a med (via pcp or psychiatrist) I'd start off with something tried and true like prozac with the idea that someday you can hopefully get off it. Becoming a zombie is unlikely but some, like Zoloft, can have that affect on certain people. Keep in mind that everyone reacts differently to each medication and sometimes it takes a few to find the right one. Please consider keeping your progress updated here as this has settled into being a great thread comprised of thoughtful people, some that have been exactly where you are right now.

 
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prosopis said:
I recently had my first physical in forever. As part of the physical there is a questionnaire regarding depression and alcohol consumption. In the past I have always fudged to outright lied on these things due to stupidity and embarrassment. This time I went full truth. My doctor looked at the alcohol one and told me this is what they used to call a functioning alcoholic. We both had a chuckle and moved on. I would agree I am a functioning  alcoholic and a better then average one.

On to the depression one. He looked at that and asked if I thought I had a problem. I said yes I do and if I could afford it I would get help. He started saying "Well at least you haven't made any suicide plans" I stopped him there and said yes I have. I have come up with a few scenarios and I am scared. After talking a bit he said my insurance wouldn't cover any help but he would wright me an rx if I wanted. Now this is a pcp so I figure he knows very little about anti depressive drugs. I asked if the drugs would make me a zombie and he pretty much said yeah. I ended up declining the rx.

My question is where does someone go if they need help but they have no funds for the help?

I have been having a VERY rough time recently. I did come up with a suicide plan that would look like an accident. I figure the family will get the life insurance and the kids wont have the stigma of a father who killed himself. I HAVE NO PLANS ON FOLLOWING THROUGH WITH THIS but I am freaked out that I am even coming up with a plan.

I did spend time doing a search on can you kill yourself with................. Turns out suicide is not as easy with drugs as I thought. 
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Do you believe in God or an abiding power and do you aspire to be worthy of the power which made your life occur? Is there a prevailing truth you live to serve? Besides family, is there a beauty which moves you profoundly?

I'm not messing with you and certainly not trying to make you feel bad. I need to know the answers to these questions to offer you assistance. You're welcome to do it either on the board or by PM. You are also welcome to ignore me without incurring any bad feeling on my part.

 
prosopis said:
I recently had my first physical in forever. As part of the physical there is a questionnaire regarding depression and alcohol consumption. In the past I have always fudged to outright lied on these things due to stupidity and embarrassment. This time I went full truth. My doctor looked at the alcohol one and told me this is what they used to call a functioning alcoholic. We both had a chuckle and moved on. I would agree I am a functioning  alcoholic and a better then average one.

On to the depression one. He looked at that and asked if I thought I had a problem. I said yes I do and if I could afford it I would get help. He started saying "Well at least you haven't made any suicide plans" I stopped him there and said yes I have. I have come up with a few scenarios and I am scared. After talking a bit he said my insurance wouldn't cover any help but he would wright me an rx if I wanted. Now this is a pcp so I figure he knows very little about anti depressive drugs. I asked if the drugs would make me a zombie and he pretty much said yeah. I ended up declining the rx.

My question is where does someone go if they need help but they have no funds for the help?

I have been having a VERY rough time recently. I did come up with a suicide plan that would look like an accident. I figure the family will get the life insurance and the kids wont have the stigma of a father who killed himself. I HAVE NO PLANS ON FOLLOWING THROUGH WITH THIS but I am freaked out that I am even coming up with a plan.

I did spend time doing a search on can you kill yourself with................. Turns out suicide is not as easy with drugs as I thought. 
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Lots of local hospitals take Medicaid insurance and is free of cost. If that doesn't work, see if there are any university counseling centers that could help out.

 
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wikkidpissah said:
Do you believe in God or an abiding power and do you aspire to be worthy of the power which made your life occur? Is there a prevailing truth you live to serve? Besides family, is there a beauty which moves you profoundly?

I'm not messing with you and certainly not trying to make you feel bad. I need to know the answers to these questions to offer you assistance. You're welcome to do it either on the board or by PM. You are also welcome to ignore me without incurring any bad feeling on my part.
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Yes I do believe in God.

 
Thanks for the replies and ideas.

Wazoo- We lost our Medicaid with the government health plan. We are one of those family's stuck in the middle.

 
prosopis said:
Yes I do believe in God.
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I don't, really, but that does not matter.

The reason i ask and the reason i answer is that i'm seeing a lot of deadness out there, people with lives to which they & others once aspired, lives that would sound pretty damn good to most folks across the world, who are dying inside. I'm retired and fairly well hermited, so have dedicated a lot of thought to this. I've come to a conclusion.

For half the world today and and all the world for 99.999% of human existence, a person has had to struggle, elementally fight, to carve life out of this earth for themselves and their families. We are hard-wired for ultimate commitment to survival, to strive with the very core of our essence or die.

Life has lit a great fire within each of us. Couple hundred years ago, we needed every ounce of that to fight, explore, suffer privation, scrape subsistence from the ground. Because humans are smart enough to wonder why they break their backs we gave ourselves glorious reasons for all this. Whether following God's plan, continuing the path of human progress, earning eternal life & limitless reward on the next level of existence, the hope of amassing untold riches & regard, whatever.........the struggle was elemental.

Today, most of us commute, committee & cooperate with forces we may not even respect, never mind admire, because we ended up being able to do a few things well enough to be welcomed into the cycles of economy. We seem to best be able to do this when we act pretty much the way everyone else does, hope that the pluses of marriage & family at least match the minuses, turn 1 or 2 major leaks of individuality into hobbies or perversions & use the delightful array of time-killing boxes to deaden our desire to be moved by any of it.

Not saying any of that is wrong, just that i see sickness in the stasis of it. Our every cell programmed to fight nature to the death in order to thrive, some of us can live an entire life now without really even joining life in any significant way.

'Join up' is the first thing i say to you, prosopis, and all the many other people in this forum alone who have either told us how lonely they are and empty they feel within their own lives or proved to be so with their almost every action. Why sit there, collective you, rooting for teams, sides, religions, parties when you haven't put Team You to the test.

You bend your mind & will to the purposes of companies & bosses who you dont care about and who dont care about you, invest most of your care in love(s), the very nature of which ensures you never get to be right, are intimately plugged into a world which seems determined to go haywire in spite of how basic answers may be. Victory is nowhere real anymore and, beyond food & shelter, it's the thing we need most. I believe the victory most available, necessary & fun to win is the one over yourself. The reward is that, when victory is the fuel for your day, each one becomes more opportunity than burden.

You have but one thing to count on - that no other entity has ever had the chance to be prosopis on July 17, the year of Our Lord 2017. It can change here, it can change now - the only one who can do it is the only one who should. You. 

You could kill yourself, you could have a day like any other, you could climb a mountain, you could buy a saxophone, you could ram a school bus, you could tell off a doosh, you could help someone in need, hold up a liquor store, laugh til you puke, begin something you've always wanted to begin, pay two Asian girls to naughty you up, call an old friend, cry, visit Barranca del Cobre, schedule a physical as the beginning of a greater commitment to wellness, dance naked on a cafeteria table, punch a stranger in the face, see your wife as she was when you fell in love with her & kiss her like you haven't in 15 years, rent a canoe, set yourself on fire

Join your life. Find out why you deserve to be here with the verve of a miner seeking gold; use yourself til you're exhausted in service of beauty, truth, God; see the extraordinary possibilities in everything; help; ask for help; snuff it if you must but not before you've required of yourself & life an amount at least equal to special nature of the gift of life you've received. You need a hand with any o' that, holla. GL -

 
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wikkidpissah said:
I don't, really, but that does not matter.

The reason i ask and the reason i answer is that i'm seeing a lot of deadness out there, people with lives to which they & others once aspired, lives that would sound pretty damn good to most folks across the world, who are dying inside. I'm retired and fairly well hermited, so have dedicated a lot of thought to this. I've come to a conclusion.

For half the world today and and all the world for 99.999% of human existence, a person has had to struggle, elementally fight, to carve life out of this earth for themselves and their families. We are hard-wired for ultimate commitment to survival, to strive with the very core of our essence or die.

Life has lit a great fire within each of us. Couple hundred years ago, we needed every ounce of that to fight, explore, suffer privation, scrape subsistence from the ground. Because humans are smart enough to wonder why they break their backs we gave ourselves glorious reasons for all this. Whether following God's plan, continuing the path of human progress, earning eternal life & limitless reward on the next level of existence, the hope of amassing untold riches & regard, whatever.........the struggle was elemental.

Today, most of us commute, committee & cooperate with forces we may not even respect, never mind admire, because we ended up being able to do a few things well enough to be welcomed into the cycles of economy. We seem to best be able to do this when we act pretty much the way everyone else does, hope that the pluses of marriage & family at least match the minuses, turn 1 or 2 major leaks of individuality into hobbies or perversions & use the delightful array of time-killing boxes to deaden our desire to be moved by any of it.

Not saying any of that is wrong, just that i see sickness in the stasis of it. Our every cell programmed to fight nature to the death in order to thrive, some of us can live an entire life now without really even joining life in any significant way.

'Join up' is the first thing i say to you, prosopis, and all the many other people in this forum alone who have either told us how lonely they are and empty they feel within their own lives or proved to be so with their almost every action. Why sit there, collective you, rooting for teams, sides, religions, parties when you haven't put Team You to the test.

You bend your mind & will to the purposes of companies & bosses who you dont care about and who dont care about you, invest most of your care in love(s), the very nature of which ensures you never get to be right, are intimately plugged into a world which seems determined to go haywire in spite of how basic answers may be. Victory is nowhere real anymore and, beyond, food & shelter, it's the thing we need most. I believe the victory most available, necessary & fun to win is the one over yourself. The reward is that, when victory is the fuel for your day, each one becomes more opportunity than burden.

You have but one thing to count on - that no other entity has ever had the chance to be prosopis on July 17, our year of the Lord 2017. It can change here, it can change now - the only one who can do it is the only one who should. You. 

You could kill yourself, you could have a day like any other, you could climb a mountain, you could buy a saxophone, you could ram a school bus, you could tell off a doosh, you could help someone in need, hold up a liquor store, laugh til you puke, begin something you've always wanted to begin, pay two Asian girls to naughty you up, call an old friend, cry, visit Barranca del Cobre, schedule a physical as the beginning of a greater commitment to wellness, dance naked on a cafeteria table, punch a stranger in the face, see your wife as she was when you fell in love with her & kiss her like you haven't in 15 years, rent a canoe, set yourself on fire

Join your life. Find out why you deserve to be here with the verve of a miner seeking gold; use yourself til you're exhausted in service of beauty, truth, God; see the extraordinary possibilities in everything; help; ask for help; snuff it if you must but not before you've required of yourself & life an amount at least equal to special nature of the gift of life you've received. You need a hand with any o' that, holla. GL -
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That's some good #### right there. 

 
wikkidpissah said:
I don't, really, but that does not matter.

The reason i ask and the reason i answer is that i'm seeing a lot of deadness out there, people with lives to which they & others once aspired, lives that would sound pretty damn good to most folks across the world, who are dying inside. I'm retired and fairly well hermited, so have dedicated a lot of thought to this. I've come to a conclusion.

For half the world today and and all the world for 99.999% of human existence, a person has had to struggle, elementally fight, to carve life out of this earth for themselves and their families. We are hard-wired for ultimate commitment to survival, to strive with the very core of our essence or die.

Life has lit a great fire within each of us. Couple hundred years ago, we needed every ounce of that to fight, explore, suffer privation, scrape subsistence from the ground. Because humans are smart enough to wonder why they break their backs we gave ourselves glorious reasons for all this. Whether following God's plan, continuing the path of human progress, earning eternal life & limitless reward on the next level of existence, the hope of amassing untold riches & regard, whatever.........the struggle was elemental.

Today, most of us commute, committee & cooperate with forces we may not even respect, never mind admire, because we ended up being able to do a few things well enough to be welcomed into the cycles of economy. We seem to best be able to do this when we act pretty much the way everyone else does, hope that the pluses of marriage & family at least match the minuses, turn 1 or 2 major leaks of individuality into hobbies or perversions & use the delightful array of time-killing boxes to deaden our desire to be moved by any of it.

Not saying any of that is wrong, just that i see sickness in the stasis of it. Our every cell programmed to fight nature to the death in order to thrive, some of us can live an entire life now without really even joining life in any significant way.

'Join up' is the first thing i say to you, prosopis, and all the many other people in this forum alone who have either told us how lonely they are and empty they feel within their own lives or proved to be so with their almost every action. Why sit there, collective you, rooting for teams, sides, religions, parties when you haven't put Team You to the test.

You bend your mind & will to the purposes of companies & bosses who you dont care about and who dont care about you, invest most of your care in love(s), the very nature of which ensures you never get to be right, are intimately plugged into a world which seems determined to go haywire in spite of how basic answers may be. Victory is nowhere real anymore and, beyond food & shelter, it's the thing we need most. I believe the victory most available, necessary & fun to win is the one over yourself. The reward is that, when victory is the fuel for your day, each one becomes more opportunity than burden.

You have but one thing to count on - that no other entity has ever had the chance to be prosopis on July 17, the year of Our Lord 2017. It can change here, it can change now - the only one who can do it is the only one who should. You. 

You could kill yourself, you could have a day like any other, you could climb a mountain, you could buy a saxophone, you could ram a school bus, you could tell off a doosh, you could help someone in need, hold up a liquor store, laugh til you puke, begin something you've always wanted to begin, pay two Asian girls to naughty you up, call an old friend, cry, visit Barranca del Cobre, schedule a physical as the beginning of a greater commitment to wellness, dance naked on a cafeteria table, punch a stranger in the face, see your wife as she was when you fell in love with her & kiss her like you haven't in 15 years, rent a canoe, set yourself on fire

Join your life. Find out why you deserve to be here with the verve of a miner seeking gold; use yourself til you're exhausted in service of beauty, truth, God; see the extraordinary possibilities in everything; help; ask for help; snuff it if you must but not before you've required of yourself & life an amount at least equal to special nature of the gift of life you've received. You need a hand with any o' that, holla. GL -
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I am not sure I get this? I have gone out and done a fair amount of challenging things. I have tested myself and done things I did not think would be easily possible. I just think this whole depression thing is a disease that will be much better understood in the future. Unfortunately I need the help now. I'm sure the folks who were burned at the stake or drowned when folks thought they were possessed wish they were born a little later when people/science realized it was just epilepsy. 

I will keep going but I wish it wasnt so difficult.

 
prosopis said:
I am not sure I get this? I have gone out and done a fair amount of challenging things. I have tested myself and done things I did not think would be easily possible. I just think this whole depression thing is a disease that will be much better understood in the future. Unfortunately I need the help now. I'm sure the folks who were burned at the stake or drowned when folks thought they were possessed wish they were born a little later when people/science realized it was just epilepsy. 

I will keep going but I wish it wasnt so difficult.
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I'm not sure why this thread is starred for me - I must have posted quite a while ago about someone's struggle.  But I opened it due to the star and saw your post, which really alarmed me.  I don't know you well, but what you posted was compelling yet extremely worrisome.  Is fixing this problem for you primarily a monetary issue?  A lot of what you've said seems to imply this.  That is something that can be remedied; let's talk about how to do so.  But if it's more than that...not just a question of getting access to the MD and rx you need, then let's discuss it more here, too.  

Just trying to get you some practical support that you might find useful.  I care, and I'm sure many others do, too.

 
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krista4- I dont know, thats why I would like to see someone who treats this kind of thing. I have the same struggles as everyone else. I just dont know why some days there is a heavy dark pressure over me that makes me want to just finish life. I dont think I could ever really do that but I certainly think about it enough that its a problem. We have all seen people who kill themselves and think WTF? They seemed to have so much good, why would they do that? Maybe there is a medical reason. Same as the healthy people we see that get diagnosed with diabetes or the runner who drops from a heart attack. Everything seemed fine there but everything was not fine. While I say I dont think I could ever do it I could see myself as one of those crazy homeless people. I think its only my responsibility to my family that keeps me from that. When my kids are grown and self sufficient I may go the homeless crazy guy route.

 
I appreciate the offer but that is something I wont do. I want to find someone I can see and afford on my own. I just need to do the research. Part of the problem is the stigma with this issue. I am somewhat already sorry/embarrassed that I brought it up here. I have done some things to help myself. I rarely watch the news as I found that it would send me into a tailspin of depression. I happened to catch a story tonight about people caught in a flash flood here in Arizona and its killing me. I think 9 people dead, some are kids and they are searching for a 13 year old boy. WTF? how is that cool? Anyway I sort of need to bury my head in the sand with stories like that.

I have also been reading a book about CBT but I'm not sure I am understanding it.  :lmao:

I need to hit the sack now as I work early and the sooner I go to bed and fight the insomnia the sooner I may find sleep. Insomnia is a huge issue with me. Some nights I only get 2 hours of sleep. 

 
prosopis said:
I appreciate the offer but that is something I wont do. I want to find someone I can see and afford on my own. I just need to do the research. Part of the problem is the stigma with this issue. I am somewhat already sorry/embarrassed that I brought it up here. I have done some things to help myself. I rarely watch the news as I found that it would send me into a tailspin of depression. I happened to catch a story tonight about people caught in a flash flood here in Arizona and its killing me. I think 9 people dead, some are kids and they are searching for a 13 year old boy. WTF? how is that cool? Anyway I sort of need to bury my head in the sand with stories like that.

I have also been reading a book about CBT but I'm not sure I am understanding it.  :lmao:

I need to hit the sack now as I work early and the sooner I go to bed and fight the insomnia the sooner I may find sleep. Insomnia is a huge issue with me. Some nights I only get 2 hours of sleep. 
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A self help book alone is good for a supplement but nothing beats a therapist/doc who specialises in it. Find a therapist who uses CBT as the mode of therapy. Google reviews on your candidates. Yelp is also a great source for finding good docs and therapists in your area too. Getting on meds would be useful too. Most psychs don't do therapy as well so you'll have to seek out a psychiatrist for the meds part. And for sure don't watch the news. It's always bad and depressing even for people who are doing fine. I quit watching it and my mood is much better. Stay away from negative people the best you can. Only hang with those who are a positive impact on you. 

And #### the stigma. It's not like it used to be for one because people know it's a lot more common than they thought. More is being put into mental health awareness. No one needs to know your biz. It's between you and your providers.

All I can say from experience of going through this with various fam members. a couple suicidals and myself as I sometimes sink myself is the sooner you reach out for help, the easier it will be to build back up. It's a daily job. Meds are part of it but really it's working on your mind and doing it alone is tough.

Best wishes to you. xx

 
Prosopis- as krista and others have mentioned, we care so please keep posting and if you ever feel like you are going to harm yourself please call someone.

You mention being an alcoholic and an insomniac - I'm no expert but I would work on those two things first.  Drinking too much and not getting sleep sounds like a recipe for disaster.  I know it's easier said than done and you've probably tried before but I think working on those two issues will really help your overall outlook.

 
AAABatteries said:
Prosopis- as krista and others have mentioned, we care so please keep posting and if you ever feel like you are going to harm yourself please call someone.

You mention being an alcoholic and an insomniac - I'm no expert but I would work on those two things first.  Drinking too much and not getting sleep sounds like a recipe for disaster.  I know it's easier said than done and you've probably tried before but I think working on those two issues will really help your overall outlook.
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This is something I am constantly working on.

 
AAABatteries said:
@glock - good luck to you and your son - scary stuff for you and your wife.  You and your son are in my thoughts and prayers.
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Thanks, AAA- our boy (JT from here on out) has followed through with the hospitalization. Not that it wasn't touch and go for a while. One week after attending college orientation he was admitted to a 4 week DBT Therapy program last week. At first JT wouldn't get out of bed that morning. Apparently I managed to summon the right words and say what he needed to hear. He got up, got some pet love from the cat and dog and got his stuff together.

The place is gorgeous- truly impressive. The people we dealt with at intake were great so our hopes are that those who will work with him are as well. One big bump in the road came three days after he was admitted. Apparently someone- patient or staff- thought it would be a "good idea" to tell JT what his stay there was going to cost. JT called me and what was supposed to be a 10 minute call became an hour and 10 minute call. He wanted to know why he wasn't involved in the financial process, and tried to tell me that he could be doing what he's doing there at home. Although we both know that isn't exactly true. He ticked off his list of things that are a waste of time... and how he can't relate to anyone there...and how he misses his dog and his cat... and could I call someone about his missing electric razor... I found out later that JT had called his older brother earlier asking when he would be sending him his iPod (on loan) and told HIM how things were going pretty good overall. WTF!?

JT called back on Sunday to ask how things were going at home... then he told me how he was reading a lot (digital free space) and that he realizes how much he misses just reading for fun. (he has devoured books in the past, before he got so caught up in his laptop) We need to bring him more books when we visit, and he rattled off requests for books in his room and a sequel to pick up at Barnes and Noble. And snacks. And laundry detergent so he could do HIS OWN LAUNDRY later this week! He told me that he was going to be riding the recumbent bike every day and using the gym every other day. Then he told me that he found a book in the computer lab that he thought I would get a kick out of. "A Child's First Book of Trump!" He read me a few lines and told me to grab myself a copy while at Barnes and Nobles. After ten minutes or so JT took the initiative to wrap up the call. He asked that we not forget the books and snacks and stuff and told me he'd see us Wednesday when we come up for a family class.

I'm thinking that he just might be okay after all... :heart:

(anyone interested in checking out the facility, please PM me. I'm undecided about putting it up in here just yet...)

 
prosopis said:
I am not sure I get this? I have gone out and done a fair amount of challenging things. I have tested myself and done things I did not think would be easily possible. I just think this whole depression thing is a disease that will be much better understood in the future. Unfortunately I need the help now. I'm sure the folks who were burned at the stake or drowned when folks thought they were possessed wish they were born a little later when people/science realized it was just epilepsy. 

I will keep going but I wish it wasnt so difficult.
Click to expand...
No prob - i dont even get myself sometimes, when i'm on a roll. I just wanted to make sure, if you are going to begin the process of getting help for your troubles - a good & brave thing to do, btw - that you were challenged at least once going in. You'll encounter a lot of head-patting & excuse-finding in the help profession, but much of righting yourself  is as spiritual & moral as you fear it to be and i wanted you to hear that up front. You defended yourself, surely & sincerely, which gives me hope.

Here's the good news - happiness is easy. One doesn't claw their way to happiness - it defeats the purpose. A person can simply decide to be happy and be just so. It's the things that drag one away from happiness or rob one of the desire to try happiness that are the bugaboo. A lot of the things which deplete a person are the leftover survival devices i talked about yesterday and i wont bore/scare you with that stuff today but, unlike what you expressed about the answers not being available to you yet, solutions are accessable right now.

For reasons i won't go into now, we take everything personally, even stuff of which we are not consciously aware. And a LOT of it is in our files, each with a proportionate amount of rage attached to it. This is a heavy weight to carry, and it leaks. Poisonous, though not deadly, leaks.

Our digestive system works that same way. We stuff any number of things into our mouths, not caring a lick of the consequences, and an army of organs go about dealing with it. The body ends up getting its fuel and the waste ends up being eliminated somehow and we're ready to go again. If the food was not the best possible food, the process somehow causes acid, gas, waste that is sometimes toxic, we deal with it with a burp, burn, fart or grunt and move on. If we poison ourselves too often those systems break down but, when you consider its task, it's pretty damned resilient. But the body is meant to work and usually does if not unfairly burdened.

O, that the brain/mind/spirit worked the same way. I actually believe it was meant to, but that's for another time. Just consider for a sec the amount of bad food the mind takes in in a day. The foolish, rude behavior; the lack of consideration; the chasing of the ridiculous and banal down blind alleys: the frustration of knowing what's right and not being allowed to do it; the confusion of two people being oppositely right about the same thing, the fear & loathing, the hope & hell of it all (there i go again). One hour of regular life is more toxic than all the chili dogs, chips & chocolate frosting you could cram down in any contest.

Does the brain digest that and eliminate the waste? No. Worse, it stores it, and on the same shelf as prayers & love & theorems & poems, no less. The mind is, of course, far more sophisticated than the bowel (in most people). Even more horrid, because of the way we're raised, we take each one of the burps, burns, farts & grunts personally - adding more angst to the pile. Combine that with the lessened number of real connections & quests & conquers to put some honest-to-god triumph next to the blood & bile and we should be wondering why we all aren't starking barkers rather than why we go awry. Just imagine if we took every digestive eruption personally as a life/status-disrupting moment. We'd all drown in puddles of our own tears. Yet we do the psychic equivalent of this every day, hour, minute.

I have been working for some time on a conscious elimination process, simple as saying your prayers (after some time sorting things out, that is), to deal with the garbage of the day and the burdens of life. I'm not finished, have no initials after my name and, as most FFApers will tell you, am quite delightfully mad. I need people to work with on this so i can refine it for public edification. If this appeals to you, PM me. If you need to know more, ask. If it's nutsy garbage, ignore. I wish you well.

 
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prosopis said:
I appreciate the offer but that is something I wont do. I want to find someone I can see and afford on my own. I just need to do the research. Part of the problem is the stigma with this issue. I am somewhat already sorry/embarrassed that I brought it up here. I have done some things to help myself. I rarely watch the news as I found that it would send me into a tailspin of depression. I happened to catch a story tonight about people caught in a flash flood here in Arizona and its killing me. I think 9 people dead, some are kids and they are searching for a 13 year old boy. WTF? how is that cool? Anyway I sort of need to bury my head in the sand with stories like that.

I have also been reading a book about CBT but I'm not sure I am understanding it.  :lmao:

I need to hit the sack now as I work early and the sooner I go to bed and fight the insomnia the sooner I may find sleep. Insomnia is a huge issue with me. Some nights I only get 2 hours of sleep. 
Click to expand...
Check out my posts regarding my son. Stigma and depression- and alcoholism!- are no longer joined at the hip. Great strides have been made in the social forum the last few years with regards to people's perception of depression. The DBT or related CBT programs can pretty much be game changers for some, but as far as seeing a therapist? The saying we have over here is- if you aren't seeing one, you MUST be crazy! Use your insurance if you have it- that's what its there for. Insomnia, depression and suicide idealization are good enough reasons to seek help as playing fantasy football. Seriously. 

edited to add "and alcoholism!"

 
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wikkidpissah said:
No prob - i dont even get myself sometimes, when i'm on a roll. I just wanted to make sure, if you are going to begin the process of getting help for your troubles - a good & brave thing to do, btw - that you were challenged at least once going in. You'll encounter a lot of head-patting & excuse-finding in the help profession, but much of righting yourself  is as spiritual & moral as you fear it to be and i wanted you to hear that up front. You defended yourself, surely & sincerely, which gives me hope.

Here's the good news - happiness is easy. One doesn't claw their way to happiness - it defeats the purpose. A person can simply decide to be happy and be just so. It's the things that drag one away from happiness or rob one of the desire to try happiness that are the bugaboo. A lot of the things which deplete a person are the leftover survival devices i talked about yesterday and i wont bore/scare you with that stuff today but, unlike what you expressed about the answers not being available to you yet, solutions are accessable right now.

For reasons i won't go into now, we take everything personally, even stuff of which we are not consciously aware. And a LOT of it is in our files, each with a proportionate amount of rage attached to it. This is a heavy weight to carry, and it leaks. Poisonous, though not deadly, leaks.

Our digestive system works that same way. We stuff any number of things into our mouths, not caring a lick of the consequences, and an army or organs go about dealing with it. The body ends up getting its fuel and the waste ends up being eliminated somehow and we're ready to go again. If the food was not the best possible food, the process somehow causes acid, gas, waste that is sometimes toxic, we deal with it with a burp, burn, fart or grunt and move on. If we poison ourselves too often those systems break down but, when you consider its task, it's pretty damned resilient. But the body is meant to work and usually does if not unfairly burdened.

O, that the brain/mind/spirit worked the same way. I actually believe it was meant to, but that's for another time. Just consider for a sec the amount of bad food the mind takes in in a day. The foolish, rude behavior; the lack of consideration; the chasing of the ridiculous and banal down blind alleys: the frustration of knowing what's right and not being allowed to do it; the confusion of two people being oppositely right about the same thing, the fear & loathing, the hope & hell of it all (there i go again). One hour of regular life is more toxic than all the chili dogs, chips & chocolate frosting you could cram down in any contest.

Does the brain digest that and eliminate the waste? No. Worse, it stores it, and on the same shelf as prayers & love & theorems & poems, no less. The mind is, of course, far more sophisticated than the bowel (in most people). Even more horrid, because of the way we're raised, we take each one of the burps, burns, farts & grunts personally - adding more angst to the pile. Combine that with the lessened number of real connections & quests & conquers to put some honest-to-god triumph next to the blood & bile and we should be wondering why we all aren't starking barkers rather than why we go awry. Just imagine if we took every digestive eruption personally as a life/staus-disrupting moment. We'd all drown in puddles of our own tears. Yet we do the psychic equivalent of this every day, hour, minute.

I have been working for some time on a conscious elimination process, simple as saying your prayers (after some time sorting things out, that is), to deal with the garbage of the day and the burdens of life. I'm not finished, have no initials after my name and, as most FFApers will tell you, am quite delightfully mad. I need people to work with on this so i can refine it for public edification. If this appeals to you, PM me. If you need to know more, ask. If it's nutsy garbage, ignore. I wish you well.
Click to expand...
Love this. Have you read up on Cognitive Dialectic Behavioral Therapy or DBT?

 
glock said:
Love this. Have you read up on Cognitive Dialectic Behavioral Therapy or DBT?
Click to expand...
Only enough to know what it is, because people are talking about it a lot. Anything that adds skills is OK by me but, for reasons explained below, i have a mistrust of the psych business and only read enough to know of what i'm working in concert or conflict. Original answers are still needed, which i feel i can best achieve at a distance from tradition.

A little curicullum vitae. 40+ years ago, i got sued out of the music biz. I was a little knocked back by that, prodigy that i was. A wealthy, local man who'd helped me thru some youthful scrapes gave me a six-month storefront lease, a few hundred dollars and a grant-writing instructor from Bridge Over Troubled Waters and told me to go out and help some kids like he helped me so he wouldnt have to do it anymore. No education, my only psych/soc experience was a season as an aide in a program for handicapped students (autism & such).

Didn't do a half-bad job - started some programs, helped some folks, got some dough, hired some pros - matter of fact, we were 3rd highest rated outreach program in MA in our first year of grant review. When i went back into showbiz, i took a patronage job in the local state mental hospital (cuz it allowed you to sleep most of the graveyard shift) to pay the bills. That gave me enough of a resume, once i quit the dense life & moved west, to get jobs at psych facilities without any college ed. I tried to specialize in child/adolescent psych because there was more hope in it and i seemed to have more input into care.

Of course, being me, that created some bad situations, with the most opinionated person in meetings being the least 'qualified' - me. Eventually, these scrapes frustrated me out of jobs and licensing was becoming more&more important in a field which i'd be damned if i studied what i already knew (ah, the impetuence of youth!) so i moved on, but not before i met my wife - the best psych nurse and the most psychotic functioning human being (she had an excuse - not only did her father molest her regularly from age 6 but traded her with other Wisconsin country club dads) i've ever known.

As i've chronicled ad nauseum in these pages, we had a glorious decade and then two years from hell as she fought and succumbed to bone cancer. I got to know the gamut of madness, both hers & society's, in those years and have spent the two decades hence trying to figure out if & how a human being can be happy. The answer is yes, the process is simple, if not easy and i am happy to work with anyone who is interested in giving it a try, free of charge. nufced

 
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prosopis said:
This is something I am constantly working on.
Click to expand...
I've battled each and am now 4+ years with no alcohol and in the best shape I've been in since I was 14 due to running and cycling (helps with sleep).

The biggest life changer for me was reading the books (1) How to Stop Worrying and Start Living by Dale Carnegie and (2) Self-Esteem by Matthew McKay. Read them multiple times and exercise yourself into oblivion. It's not easy at all but it can be done. Alcohol interferes with sleep in a substantial way and also increases anxiety and depression in a substantial way. It's a never ending cycle of drinking, anxiety, and stress if you don't stop the booze. Book (1) will help you with your outlook on life and book (2) will help teach you to like yourself more. I implore you to read both. You can do it.

ETA: Youtube Yoga Sleep videos for help with the sleep... those are amazing.

 
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TheWalkmen said:
I've battled each and am now 4+ years with no alcohol and in the best shape I've been in since I was 14 due to running and cycling (helps with sleep).

The biggest life changer for me was reading the books (1) How to Stop Worrying and Start Living by Dale Carnegie and (2) Self-Esteem by Matthew McKay. Read them multiple times and exercise yourself into oblivion. It's not easy at all but it can be done. Alcohol interferes with sleep in a substantial way and also increases anxiety and depression in a substantial way. It's a never ending cycle of drinking, anxiety, and stress if you don't stop the booze. Book (1) will help you with your outlook on life and book (2) will help teach you to like yourself more. I implore you to read both. You can do it.

ETA: Youtube Yoga Sleep videos for help with the sleep... those are amazing.
Click to expand...
I just added both books to my list. Thanks for the recommendation  :thumbup:

 
When I do it, I think I will hang myself.  It has always been how I seen it.  Seeing the prominent people do it that way has made me question why.  Is it a ingrained thing?  I have always had to deal with it but have fended it off.  Sometimes I wake up after being drunk and my first thought is I have to die, sometimes the same thing sober.  

It is just a part of who I am, maybe an escape route if things get too hard or maybe just a part of me.  I really don't know.  It is sometimes a daily thing, other times less prevalent.  All I know, it has been there since I was.  Day by day.

 
FatUncleJerryBuss said:
When I do it, I think I will hang myself.  It has always been how I seen it.  Seeing the prominent people do it that way has made me question why.  Is it a ingrained thing?  I have always had to deal with it but have fended it off.  Sometimes I wake up after being drunk and my first thought is I have to die, sometimes the same thing sober.  

It is just a part of who I am, maybe an escape route if things get too hard or maybe just a part of me.  I really don't know.  It is sometimes a daily thing, other times less prevalent.  All I know, it has been there since I was.  Day by day.
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I missed @prosopis posting. But I didn't miss this. And I'm glad I at least didn't miss this one.

Two things: first, the good news is that depression is probably the most treatable psychiatric illness we have. Go.  See someone. You can feel better.  You'll never likely be Donnie Osmond, but you don't have to feel like this forever. The difference can be amazing.

Second: When you have an actual plan and say "when" instead of if, go now.  Go find someone to talk to.  Someone hopefully who can prescribe medication if needed. Please. If it's a friend or a priest at first, so be it but go. Talk to someone.  I know you've probably been beating back the jungle for years, but you're not done yet.  Please.

I know where you are.  I've been where you are.  And I would have missed all of the best days of my life.  Every single one. I'm not saying life will get "easy".  But compared to feeling like this it can. I swear to you, I know depression.  I know anxiety.  I know bad luck.  Mine was so bad I screwed up killing myself.  

I don't believe in God, but I believe in us.  I don't know you well, but that includes you.  You can do this.  I've sat in a room by myself with a gun in my mouth absolutely sure I had nothing left I wanted to give to the world, and I'm telling you it's not true of you the same way it wasn't true of me.  

Good luck, man.  And stay around here and talk when you need to.

There are a number of theories about where this comes from. Right now it's looking pretty likely it has to do with the types of parents we had, and the things we had to go through at a young age.  But it's not all that.  Some of us have just been "lucky" I guess. I'm sorry you're in the ranks, but there are a lot of us. 

 
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Henry Ford said:
For anyone in crisis in the United States;

you can text to 741741, 24 Hours, Seven Days a Week, and get a live text partner who will "listen".  Please do. 
Click to expand...
This is good to know!!

I have had a pretty good week. I have been talking to someone on the innernets, reading my CBT book, working hard at calming the #### down. So all in all a good week. Sometimes I get just as concerned with a good week if its to good the same as when I get super down. I don't know if that makes sense but thats what it is. I can be doing/feeling really good and I will just stop and think WTF? I shouldn't be like this. I feel like there should be a median between the super low and super high emotionally. 

Henry Ford- LOL at the Donny Osmond reference :lmao:

 
As someone who has dealt with anxiety and panic attacks for 20 years, my biggest mistake was thinking it is something I could "deal with".  You can't.  Like depression, it is a MEDICAL CONDITION.  The chemicals in your brain may have an imbalance causing you to feel this way.  Don't be prideful about this - if you broke your leg, you would go to the doctor.  Think of it in that context.  Don't wait, just do it.

 
prosopis said:
I appreciate the offer but that is something I wont do. I want to find someone I can see and afford on my own. I just need to do the research. Part of the problem is the stigma with this issue. I am somewhat already sorry/embarrassed that I brought it up here. I have done some things to help myself. I rarely watch the news as I found that it would send me into a tailspin of depression. I happened to catch a story tonight about people caught in a flash flood here in Arizona and its killing me. I think 9 people dead, some are kids and they are searching for a 13 year old boy. WTF? how is that cool? Anyway I sort of need to bury my head in the sand with stories like that.

I have also been reading a book about CBT but I'm not sure I am understanding it.  :lmao:

I need to hit the sack now as I work early and the sooner I go to bed and fight the insomnia the sooner I may find sleep. Insomnia is a huge issue with me. Some nights I only get 2 hours of sleep. 
Click to expand...
Hang in there!

CBT is heavily informed by the Greek philosopher Epictetus.  His quote, “People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them” nicely sums up the tradition. Basically, if you can change the way you think about things, you can change the way you feel about them.  Most therapist use this form of therapy; you should be able to find one in your area.  PM me if you have any other questions. Good luck!

 
Bonzai said:
Hang in there!

CBT is heavily informed by the Greek philosopher Epictetus.  His quote, “People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them” nicely sums up the tradition. Basically, if you can change the way you think about things, you can change the way you feel about them.  Most therapist use this form of therapy; you should be able to find one in your area.  PM me if you have any other questions. Good luck!
Click to expand...
How can CBT help me think about the current political climate?

 
CurlyNight said:
Part of CBT is learning not to worry about things that haven't happened or you have no control over. I'm sure we all struggle with this, I certainly do, but why rob yourself of peace today when tomorrow isn't a known yet?
Click to expand...
One of the best things about the Spielberg movie Bridge of Spies is that the Russian spy at the center of it has the Russians after him, the Americans after him, the West Germans after him, God knows who else after him. At each jackpot moment which results from this, his lawyer asks him "Aren't you worried?!?!", to which the oddly calm little man always replies, "Would it help?" Kinda like that.

 
CurlyNight said:
Part of CBT is learning not to worry about things that haven't happened or you have no control over. I'm sure we all struggle with this, I certainly do, but why rob yourself of peace today when tomorrow isn't a known yet?
Click to expand...
I can't find the quote now but it was from G.K Chesterton. The quote regarded news in general. Why burden ourselves with something we can't change or control. I believe he felt local news, things we could affect was good to follow but beyond that not so much. I personally can be thrown into a deep depression by the news. The all time worst for me was the Sandy Hook shootings. It really affected me and I was a wreck for months. I am even starting to feel it now just typing this. After the Sandy Hook shootings I stopped watching the news and I am better for it. If I happen to catch the news I am almost always sorry I did. I am just a happier guy not watching. Some people say this is bad and is ignorant but I disagree. How does it help me to watch a news story about genital mutilation in Africa? It doesn't and I cant help those people. Not saying I wish I could but the fact is I can't so there is no need to burden my mind with it. Now if something like that is going on locally thats a different story and I do need to know that so I can do something to stop it. 

I feel like I am rambling but by not watching the news I am better off mentally, emotionally, and possibly morally. Thats just my 2 cents.

 
wikkidpissah said:
One of the best things about the Spielberg movie Bridge of Spies is that the Russian spy at the center of it has the Russians after him, the Americans after him, the West Germans after him, God knows who else after him. At each jackpot moment which results from this, his lawyer asks him "Aren't you worried?!?!", to which the oddly calm little man always replies, "Would it help?" Kinda like that.
Click to expand...
I want to check this movie out now.

 
prosopis said:
I can't find the quote now but it was from G.K Chesterton. The quote regarded news in general. Why burden ourselves with something we can't change or control. I believe he felt local news, things we could affect was good to follow but beyond that not so much. I personally can be thrown into a deep depression by the news. The all time worst for me was the Sandy Hook shootings. It really affected me and I was a wreck for months. I am even starting to feel it now just typing this. After the Sandy Hook shootings I stopped watching the news and I am better for it. If I happen to catch the news I am almost always sorry I did. I am just a happier guy not watching. Some people say this is bad and is ignorant but I disagree. How does it help me to watch a news story about genital mutilation in Africa? It doesn't and I cant help those people. Not saying I wish I could but the fact is I can't so there is no need to burden my mind with it. Now if something like that is going on locally thats a different story and I do need to know that so I can do something to stop it. 

I feel like I am rambling but by not watching the news I am better off mentally, emotionally, and possibly morally. Thats just my 2 cents.
Click to expand...
For sure. I watch some local stuff but when politics comes on ,100% of the time I now switch the channel. I don't want to know until it's happened. At first it was are you serious with Trump et al and some comedy there then when it became real on 1/20, I started to sink. Reading about all my cancer friends fretting over health insurance about did me in, and I'm not on ACA anymore. When I was though I spent much time worrying and stressing that I know some of my side effects became worse from it. I know now my aches and pains were worse from it because now that I've changed gears they are a little easier to handle. 

Then we have people who just call it how they see it. I finally had to tell my onc to quit telling me I'm a high risk to progress to stage IV. I've heard it 100 times and I'm doing the best I can. She wants me on meds that I simply can't handle because it's so miserably debilitating. So I'm on ones that aren't quite as effective for my profile. Oh well. I heard it the first time now let me be in peace. She finally got the message and now instead I get a big hug at the end of appts. Not sure I like that either but again, got to let some stuff go.

Stress is very powerful. Even good stress. Your body doesn't know the difference, only your mind does. Life is tough enough without adding things that haven't happened yet or you can't control to your plate. The phrase worried sick actually has more meaning than just you fretting like mad over something.

 
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I felt pretty good today.  I hope everyone here is doing OK tonight.  It's almost midnight and I put on a 73 Dead show and shut off all the light.  I have crazy chaos in my life right now but I am not letting it get to me.  I'm gonna stop reflecting now as its making me nervous.  I'm good.

 
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There's not a day that goes by in the last year that I don't think of this. I'd never do it. Love my son too much. Just the fact that I feel like this every single day is overwhelming.

 
In 5 weeks my wife is going back to work after a year off. We really need the money but I loved her being a stay at home mom. Took care of the house, the son, and me. Ugh. The whole situation just makes me sad.

 
shadyridr said:
In 5 weeks my wife is going back to work after a year off. We really need the money but I loved her being a stay at home mom. Took care of the house, the son, and me. Ugh. The whole situation just makes me sad.
Click to expand...
sorry you're going through this gb. I can genuinely empathize with the wife/work/money/kids thing. easy to go down the road of seeing my peers not having to worry about these things (either because of more money or more nearby family to handle it) and then feel bad about myself... but I know I'm doing the best I can- and I know damned well you are too.

aside from us- is there anybody you can talk to? priest, therapist, whatever? 

 
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