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Marvel Cinematic Universe - Shang-Chi was great, "What if" dragging on, Hawkeye on deck


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On 8/2/2019 at 4:40 PM, Thunderlips said:

Just saw it.  

Looking at it as just a Spider Man movie is a bit myopic.  It's very much a Tony Stark eulogy.....an Endgame postscript and a Phase 4 Foreward……..all under the umbrella of a both a high school rom com AND a beginner (not top of his game Spidey.....but newbie Spidey still learning the ropes) Spider-Man adventure.

They juggled all that perfectly.....and gave us two very relevant post credit scenes.  

All of the kids are good in their roles, Jake Gyllenhall was a good villain and Happy/Aunt May is nice flavor for the Marvel Universe.  They did a great job.   

Was flipping through the channels and watched City Slickers. I don't know if i ever realized that Jack Gyllenhall played Billy Crystal's son

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26 minutes ago, dhockster said:

Wow, sorry. I failed to see your thread police badge. Won't happen again officer (even though it was Marvel related in that Gyllenhall just played Mysterio).

You also failed to see my sarcasm badge, but hey, none of us are perfect. 

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Saw it, enjoyed it.

 

So before Mysterio got control of Edith he had to plant those projection device thingys all around the areas he planned his illusions.  Meaning he had to plant maybe thousands of those devices all around Venice, Italy well in advance.  Right? Okay fine.  

And his team had someone who was able to create physical damage with some kind of McGuffin to emulate monster damage. Sure, fine.  I'm good with that.

So which one of his team was able to also make sure everyone and everything got wet when the water monster went on it's rampage?  It was flooding all down the narrow streets of Venice, wiping out people and damaging buildings.  Did he also set up thousands of remote controlled super-soakers?  Did that get explained when Mysterio was going all expositiony about his awesome team?

Anyway, saw it enjoyed it.

Edited by Chaka
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8 minutes ago, Chaka said:

Saw it, enjoyed it.

  Hide contents

So before Mysterio got control of Edith he had to plant those projection device thingys all around the areas he planned his illusions.  Meaning he had to plant maybe thousands of those devices all around Venice, Italy well in advance.  Right? Okay fine.  

And his team had someone who was able to create physical damage with some kind of McGuffin to emulate monster damage. Sure, fine.  I'm good with that.

So which one of his team was able to also make sure everyone and everything got wet when the water monster went on it's rampage?  It was flooding all down the narrow streets of Venice, wiping out people and damaging buildings.  Did he also set up thousands of remote controlled super-soakers?  Did that get explained when Mysterio was going all expositiony about his awesome team?

Anyway, saw it enjoyed it.

He didnt plant anything. Everything was done with drones.

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6 minutes ago, Chaka said:

Saw it, enjoyed it.

  Reveal hidden contents

So before Mysterio got control of Edith he had to plant those projection device thingys all around the areas he planned his illusions.  Meaning he had to plant maybe thousands of those devices all around Venice, Italy well in advance.  Right? Okay fine.  

And his team had someone who was able to create physical damage with some kind of McGuffin to emulate monster damage. Sure, fine.  I'm good with that.

So which one of his team was able to also make sure everyone and everything got wet when the water monster went on it's rampage?  It was flooding all down the narrow streets of Venice, wiping out people and damaging buildings.  Did he also set up thousands of remote controlled super-soakers?  Did that get explained when Mysterio was going all expositiony about his awesome team?

Anyway, saw it enjoyed it.

I think he still had cloaked drones before getting EDITH, he just didn't have a satellite full of them and all the other systems EDITH controlled. 

Controlled detonations in the water could easily be used to make sure water flowed where it needed to for things to get wet. In such a situation, no one is paying close enough attention to make sure all the details are just right. 

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4 minutes ago, shadyridr said:

He didnt plant anything. Everything was done with drones.

 

 

3 minutes ago, bcdjr1 said:

 

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I think he still had cloaked drones before getting EDITH, he just didn't have a satellite full of them and all the other systems EDITH controlled. 

Controlled detonations in the water could easily be used to make sure water flowed where it needed to for things to get wet. In such a situation, no one is paying close enough attention to make sure all the details are just right. 

Fair enough.

So I guess Tony built the massive murder satellite with almost zero override control as a response to the Snappening.  Wonder why he didn't give Pepper or Happy a kill switch.

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2 minutes ago, Chaka said:

 

 

Fair enough.

 

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So I guess Tony built the massive murder satellite with almost zero override control as a response to the Snappening.  Wonder why he didn't give Pepper or Happy a kill switch.

 

It isn't meant to be a murder satellite. And it can be overridden by EDITH. Which he gave to Peter because Peter is the one he saw as taking Iron Man's place, not Happy or Pepper. 

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Just now, bcdjr1 said:

 

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It isn't meant to be a murder satellite. And it can be overridden by EDITH. Which he gave to Peter because Peter is the one he saw as taking Iron Man's place, not Happy or Pepper. 

I got that part.  It was horrendously implausible to the point of being stupid.  Even at his drunkest and most irrational Tony Stark isn't that reckless.

And it was absolutely a murder satellite.  Sure maybe it had other applications but "Murder Satellite" was definitely front and center in the user manual.  He railed against the remaining Avengers in Endgame because they killed the Ultron program.  Of course he went ahead and built in catastrophic defense protocols into Edith.  Heck, Peter almost murdered his entire, class by accident.

Great safety protocols Tony.  Bang up job.

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11 minutes ago, Chaka said:

I got that part.  It was horrendously implausible to the point of being stupid.  Even at his drunkest and most irrational Tony Stark isn't that reckless.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

And it was absolutely a murder satellite.  Sure maybe it had other applications but "Murder Satellite" was definitely front and center in the user manual.  He railed against the remaining Avengers in Endgame because they killed the Ultron program.  Of course he went ahead and built in catastrophic defense protocols into Edith.  Heck, Peter almost murdered his entire, class by accident.

Great safety protocols Tony.  Bang up job.

Reckless in what way? And Peter was the safety protocol. He didn't expect him to give away the keys to the kingdom.

People forget that Peter is a genius. He built a home computer, his web shooters, and invented his web fluid all on 0 budget using stuff other people had thrown away, all before meeting Tony. If he had unlimited resources like Tony did growing up, he could have easily been the next Tony Stark. 

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1 hour ago, bcdjr1 said:

Reckless in what way? And Peter was the safety protocol. He didn't expect him to give away the keys to the kingdom.

People forget that Peter is a genius. He built a home computer, his web shooters, and invented his web fluid all on 0 budget using stuff other people had thrown away, all before meeting Tony. If he had unlimited resources like Tony did growing up, he could have easily been the next Tony Stark. 

I think everyone knows he's a whiz-kid, even if the films had downplayed that until his multiverse observations, but that is not the same as being responsible enough to handle nuclear level firepower.

He's a kid with extremely limited experience, immediately demonstrated that and it was absolutely foreseeable by a guy like Stark. 

Look, I enjoyed the film and am one of the biggest MCU geeks around these parts but not having safeguards in the highly foreseeable event of a 16 year old genius making bad decisions is a lot to accept.  It was theatrically lazy.

 

Hi Peter, I'm Edith do you want to kill anyone?  Press one for Yes.  Press two for Sure, why not? Press nothing for Yes. Hesitate for even a second or speak unclearly and I will assume you mean Yes.  Death bots go boom now!!!

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4 minutes ago, Chaka said:

I think everyone knows he's a whiz-kid, even if the films had downplayed that until his multiverse observations, but that is not the same as being responsible enough to handle nuclear level firepower.

He's a kid with extremely limited experience, immediately demonstrated that and it was absolutely foreseeable by a guy like Stark. 

Look, I enjoyed the film and am one of the biggest MCU geeks around these parts but not having safeguards in the highly foreseeable event of a 16 year old genius making bad decisions is a lot to accept.  It was theatrically lazy.

  Reveal hidden contents

Hi Peter, I'm Edith do you want to kill anyone?  Press one for Yes.  Press two for Sure, why not? Press nothing for Yes. Hesitate for even a second or speak unclearly and I will assume you mean Yes.  Death bots go boom now!!!

You're right, Tony never made any mistakes. Oh wait, no. Most of his storyline in the MCU was him trying to correct past mistakes and making new ones along the way. He became Iron Man after seeing what his weapons company was doing in the world. His troubles in the 2nd and 3rd movies of that trilogy stemmed from mistakes and arrogance in attempting those fixes. In Avengers he thought he could do it all himself until he was shown how mistaken he was. Age of Ultron was all about his mistake in creating Ultron in the first place. Infinity War, he wanted to fix it by himself again and failed and ended up watching Peter (among others) die in front of him because he failed to stop Thanos. He was failing and making mistakes all over. 

He saw himself in Peter, which is why he was so hard on him when he screwed up in Homecoming. And at the end that was why he trusted Peter with EDITH. He knew that Peter would do his best to protect people like Tony himself did. And he knew that even if Peter screwed up, he would work that much harder to fix things, just like Tony himself. 

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3 hours ago, Chaka said:

 

 

Fair enough.

 

  Hide contents

So I guess Tony built the massive murder satellite with almost zero override control as a response to the Snappening.  Wonder why he didn't give Pepper or Happy a kill switch.

 

So the movie can happen 

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4 hours ago, bcdjr1 said:

He saw himself in Peter, which is why he was so hard on him when he screwed up in Homecoming. And at the end that was why he trusted Peter with EDITH. He knew that Peter would do his best to protect people like Tony himself did. And he knew that even if Peter screwed up, he would work that much harder to fix things, just like Tony himself. 

I like what you say in the bolded, it is well considered and a solid argument for why Peter was chosen as a legacy by Tony.  They set that up well over four films.  But being flawed as a human being, no need for the recap btw I already acknowledged Stark was highly reckless, is far different than handing city destroying power to anyone without any form of safeguards.  The notion that Happy couldn't have made a phone call to Pepper and tell her to shut down EDITH is patently absurd.  The most important aspect of Stark's character arc also includes growing because of his mistakes.

@Insein gave the only true answer.  It happened because it allowed the movie to happen.  Personally I think that aspect was lazy storytelling.

Either way, I still enjoyed the film.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Was it ever confirmed that the 2023 Steve Rogers told Peggy Carter that he was from the future? It'd be alarming to her to have another Steve in 2011 or whatever or was she already forgetful by the time he reappeared?  At the beginning of that video she seems coherent and "coached" to not alarm that Steve Rogers but I don't know.

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3 hours ago, Capella said:

Spidey out of the MCU. :cry: I was worried about that. 

Have to think that's the beginning of the end for the MCU. Spidey is the key to all of the next phase. They basically built him as the heir apparent to Iron Man. Without him, they have to rewrite everything. 

Who's the main attraction now? Who's the draw? Dr Strange? Captain Marvel? Female Thor? 

They better streamline Fantastic 4 and XMen in some interesting movies in the next 6-7 years. Otherwise this could go really badly. Disney should have paid for Spiderman. 

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3 hours ago, Capella said:

Spidey out of the MCU. :cry: I was worried about that. 

I would not get weepy about this just yet. I’d bet Disney leaked this to move the negotiations to their advantage. 

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41 minutes ago, Tom Servo said:

I would not get weepy about this just yet. I’d bet Disney leaked this to move the negotiations to their advantage. 

Absolutely. But they need to pay up. Rumor is they were asking for an increase from 5% to 50% take. Sony rightfully told them to GTFO. Hopefully they settle on something because Phase 4 is toast without Spiderman 

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5 hours ago, Tom Servo said:

I would not get weepy about this just yet. I’d bet Disney leaked this to move the negotiations to their advantage. 

This was a key paragraph for me

"When contacted by io9, a Sony representative said it’s their belief this dispute is simply over a producer credit and negotiations are ongoing. They further clarified that Feige has contributed to other Spider-centric movies that he did not receive a producer credit on."

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13 hours ago, Insein said:

Have to think that's the beginning of the end for the MCU. Spidey is the key to all of the next phase. They basically built him as the heir apparent to Iron Man. Without him, they have to rewrite everything. 

Who's the main attraction now? Who's the draw? Dr Strange? Captain Marvel? Female Thor? 

They better streamline Fantastic 4 and XMen in some interesting movies in the next 6-7 years. Otherwise this could go really badly. Disney should have paid for Spiderman. 

I don't know how much of phase 4 is really dependant on Spider-Man. Marvel knew this could happen. He probably wasn't going to be in any of the upcoming movies. And they can definitely work around his absence. They can always use the kid from IM3. 

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1 hour ago, bcdjr1 said:

I don't know how much of phase 4 is really dependant on Spider-Man. Marvel knew this could happen. He probably wasn't going to be in any of the upcoming movies. And they can definitely work around his absence. They can always use the kid from IM3. 

Agree.  I think he has only appeared in the Avengers movies and none of those are on the docket for the next two years or more.  I love the change as far as getting out of the shadow of Tony Stark

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Is this an instance of Sony:

   a) going back on what was a done deal with Disney, or
   b) declining to extend a deal?

Seems weird that Spiderman has gotten this much run in the MCU if the conditions were such that Sony could just yank the character right back from Disney. Yes, the MCU can pivot -- probably not too hard to keep up the writing and characterization and churn out a bunch more $500 million - $ 1 billion movies. Still a loss, though.

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5 minutes ago, Doug B said:

Is this an instance of Sony:

   a) going back on what was a done deal with Disney, or
   b) declining to extend a deal?

Seems weird that Spiderman has gotten this much run in the MCU if the conditions were such that Sony could just yank the character right back from Disney. Yes, the MCU can pivot -- probably not too hard to keep up the writing and characterization and churn out a bunch more $500 million - $ 1 billion movies. Still a loss, though.

The way it sounded, Disney was asking for a bigger piece of the pie going forward and Sony wasn't interested in giving it to them. 

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This is a good, up-to-date synopsis of what's going on between Disney and Sony:

Quote

 

In the initial deal between the two companies, Sony would allow Marvel’s creative team to integrate Spider-Man into their cinematic universe and [Sony] would put up 100% of the production costs. In exchange, Disney received 5% of “first-dollar gross,” or 5% of the ticket sales from the first day of the release, and retained the merchandising rights for the character. Sony, would reap the rest of the box office haul.

According to Deadline, Disney had recently proposed a 50/50 co-financing deal, meaning each company would put up half of the production costs and then split the profits. Sony reportedly refused.

 

What I'm trying to figure out is whether or not the deal in blue is really a bad deal compared to the deal in red.

For instance: Spiderman appeared in both Avengers: Infinity War and Avengers: Endgame. Those two films together cost about $750 million together to produce & market. Googling says production costs alone were just north of $650 million.

Just because Spiderman was used in those last two Avengers films ... that doesn't mean that Sony put up $650 million, right? Maybe the deal in red only applied for the two dedicated Spiderman films (Homecoming and Far from Home)? Some detail is missing, I think.

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5 minutes ago, Doug B said:

This is a good, up-to-date synopsis of what's going on between Disney and Sony:

Quote

 

In the initial deal between the two companies, Sony would allow Marvel’s creative team to integrate Spider-Man into their cinematic universe and [Sony] would put up 100% of the production costs. In exchange, Disney received 5% of “first-dollar gross,” or 5% of the ticket sales from the first day of the release, and retained the merchandising rights for the character. Sony, would reap the rest of the box office haul.

According to Deadline, Disney had recently proposed a 50/50 co-financing deal, meaning each company would put up half of the production costs and then split the profits. Sony reportedly refused.

 

What I'm trying to figure out is whether or not the deal in blue is really a bad deal compared to the deal in red.

For instance: Spiderman appeared in both Avengers: Infinity War and Avengers: Endgame. Those two films together cost about $750 million together to produce & market. Googling says production costs alone were just north of $650 million.

Just because Spiderman was used in those last two Avengers films ... that doesn't mean that Sony put up $650 million, right? Maybe the deal in red only applied for the two dedicated Spiderman films (Homecoming and Far from Home)? Some detail is missing, I think.

I believe the red deal is specifically for the Sony Spider-Man movies. I would guess that Disney feels like they're driving a lot of the profitably of those movies and would like more of the profits. They are willing to pay more of the costs in return. Sony probably likes things better the way they are. 

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You'd have to think eventually Feige and whomever is running Sony Pics are going to get there collective heads out of their asses and realize that pulling the plug on this will be a humongous mistake.  Pretty sure this will get resolved.  I don't care if Sony produces another Tom Holland film.  It will absolutely make zero sense because they will have eliminated the whole MCU portion.  They may try to mix Venom and Spider-man together but it won't make sense.  I will not go see another Sony produced piece of crap Spider-man movie and I bet a lot of other folks won't either.

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9 minutes ago, CentralPA said:

You'd have to think eventually Feige and whomever is running Sony Pics are going to get there collective heads out of their asses and realize that pulling the plug on this will be a humongous mistake.  Pretty sure this will get resolved.  I don't care if Sony produces another Tom Holland film.  It will absolutely make zero sense because they will have eliminated the whole MCU portion.  They may try to mix Venom and Spider-man together but it won't make sense.  I will not go see another Sony produced piece of crap Spider-man movie and I bet a lot of other folks won't either.

It's all a negotiation anyway. Read today that Sony didn't specifically say Spiderman was out of the MCU. Just the Feige would not produce anymore solo Spiderman films. Disney pulled the weak tactic of putting out to their media controlled outlets to try to make Sony bend over and accept their deal. 

My guess is they meet somewhere at a more reasonable nu ber and this was all just non story.

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Just now, NewlyRetired said:

I think using the past tense of "killed" in the title of this thread is premature IMO.  From everything I can see, the sides are still negotiating.

Depending on which report you read.  I got the feeling from what I saw that it was no more stand alone Spidey movies, but he could still be in Avengers movies?  If what I read is right or wrong I think it will ultimately get worked out.  He isn't in any phase 4 movies so they have time to sort this out for phase 5, when we get Spidey 3, Captain Marvel 2, BP2, AGotG3, Dr Strange 3, Avengers 5.....

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3 minutes ago, NewlyRetired said:

I think using the past tense of "killed" in the title of this thread is premature IMO.  From everything I can see, the sides are still negotiating.

I think that is going on too but both sides can't be pleased that this information was released if that is the case.

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3 minutes ago, CentralPA said:

I will not go see another Sony produced piece of crap Spider-man movie and I bet a lot of other folks won't either.

I guess, like Buckna pointed out above about Venom's box office take, that Sony is betting such boycotters will be roundly outnumbered.

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3 minutes ago, CentralPA said:

I think that is going on too but both sides can't be pleased that this information was released if that is the case.

I think the release was leaked by one of the two sides to hopefully advance the talks.  These type of leaks are usually planned during negotiations.

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5 minutes ago, B Maverick said:

 He isn't in any phase 4 movies so they have time to sort this out for phase 5, when we get Spidey 3, Captain Marvel 2, BP2, AGotG3, Dr Strange 3, Avengers 5.....

I think it will be Doctor Strange 2 in phase 5. 

I am unaware of any Avengers movies being on the release schedule for phase 5.  The latest rumor I saw was that if they are able to introduce the Xmen into the MCU sometime during phase 5 and if it is popular, that their dream Avengers 5 movie would be Avengers vs XMen some time in phase 6.  So much needs to happen though for them to pull that off.

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54 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:

I was really hoping this was going to be that scene from the movie Downfall with Hitler and all of his generals standing around him in that small room in his bunker.

We are overdue for a good one of those.

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4 hours ago, NewlyRetired said:

I think it will be Doctor Strange 2 in phase 5. 

I am unaware of any Avengers movies being on the release schedule for phase 5.  The latest rumor I saw was that if they are able to introduce the Xmen into the MCU sometime during phase 5 and if it is popular, that their dream Avengers 5 movie would be Avengers vs XMen some time in phase 6.  So much needs to happen though for them to pull that off.

Oops you are right, DS 2 not 3, hit the wrong number :doh:

This makes sense, although I hope they bring in FF before the X-Men.  Rumors are they might, if Namor is truely coming to BP 2 and things leading to the Silver Surfer and Galactus.  The crazy thing is there are so many ways they can go with several hinted at via easter eggs and some just hoped for.

As much as I love the X-Men, Wolverine, Deadpool, they can wait to bring them in so they can do it well.  

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On 8/6/2019 at 5:52 PM, Chaka said:

I like what you say in the bolded, it is well considered and a solid argument for why Peter was chosen as a legacy by Tony.  They set that up well over four films.  But being flawed as a human being, no need for the recap btw I already acknowledged Stark was highly reckless, is far different than handing city destroying power to anyone without any form of safeguards.  The notion that Happy couldn't have made a phone call to Pepper and tell her to shut down EDITH is patently absurd.  The most important aspect of Stark's character arc also includes growing because of his mistakes.

@Insein gave the only true answer.  It happened because it allowed the movie to happen.  Personally I think that aspect was lazy storytelling.

Either way, I still enjoyed the film.

 

I like tight writing that deals with major and obvious plot holes. But this really isn't one to me.

The people that designed and built these drones in the first place are these bad guys. EDITH gives them superuser access with no one the wiser. The first thing I would assume they would do is lock down full control.  Being the designers they have the skills, and now they have the primary control needed to do so.

Granted, this would take 5 seconds of screen time to make clear:

"Did you shut down any overrides?"
"Yes."

For all I know that might even be in the movie. Even if not, it such an obvious first step for them to do, I have no real issues with it not being handled on screen.

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  • Corporation changed the title to Marvel Cinematic Universe - Shang-Chi was great, "What if" dragging on, Hawkeye on deck

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