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Indefinite New England Patriots Thread (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter captain_amazing
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Anarchy99
Footballguy
They forced the action to Brown when he was there. AB played about 24 of 72 snaps. Gordon played 57. They only had 28 passing attempts. Gordon saw 5 of them. They didn't really need him and overall they just ran the clock down and ran a lot (35 rushing attempts). They easily could have laid it on offensively if they wanted but didn't.
Manster
Footballguy
It's really criminal how bad the AFC east has been, and continues to be for the Pats.
Bossman
Footballguy
Is that their 4th OL thats out? My goodness.
Canon due back this week maybe?
Not much on the roster for a blocking TE either. There's more than a good chance Brady takes a few lumps from here on out.
This would be the one thing that could de-rail this team. Who would of thought the O-line would be the culprit.
johnnycakes
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
Concerning to GMs with Michel on the team and those that need longer-developing plays for Gordon to get targets. That's me. Dang.
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
ABs targets came out of Edelman and Dorsett's share. Cannon will be back week 4 if not this week and Ben Watson returns week 5. Scar will keep it together until then.Concerning to GMs with Michel on the team and those that need longer-developing plays for Gordon to get targets. That's me. Dang.
tombonneau
Footballguy
People always say this, but last time I checked Pats had a similar win % vs AFCE as they have vs rest of NFL, around .750. You could argue that the teams are not strong enough to challenge Pats for the division, which would hold water if the Pats were winning the AFCE with 9 or 10 wins, but they consistently are 12, 13 or 14. Show me a division where the second place team consistently has 12-13 wins. Simply does not happen on any kind of consistent basis. So while on the surface it seems to makes life easy for NE, in reality, it honestly does not have much of an impact on their continued success.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Serious question. How would other divisions look over the last 20 years if each team had to start the year with an average of 1.5 to 2 losses every year if NE had been in a different division. It’s been discussed in multiple threads that NE wins essentially at the same rate in their division, in their conference, or out of conference. What would change would be the division that NE was winning in and how weak that division was.
Manster
Footballguy
Dude, you can spin it however you want, the fact is the AFC east hot garbage. Miami hasnt been relevent since Marino. The Jets have a decent defense once in a blue moon...QB?...and the Bills? Trash! Year in, year out.....These three franchises have been HORRIBLE with player/personnel moves for decades!
This season, it's 6 gimmes....how many other teams get 6 gimmes?
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Manster
Footballguy
6 gimmes this season.....
And most seasons we all know those three other trash franchises aren't going to field a competitive team......I'd bet any of the other better franchises in the NFL would KILL to be in the AFC east!
AngryPatriot
Footballguy
The AFC east ranks in the middle of the pack as far as weak divisions go over the last few years. It's not like the Jaguars, Browns, Rams, Bucs, Titans, Bears, Raiders....etc... of the last bunch of years have not been in the league or something. But WHO CARES?? The Pats still get it done- and in the playoffs against the "strong" teams....
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Manster
Footballguy
Man, Pats fans sure are touchy about their division!
Fwiw, I think what the Pats have done is incredible. We will most likely never see another dynasty like this in the NFL.....I just find it comical how bad the rest of that division is year in, year out.....if anything, it gives more credence to what NE has done by showing just how hard it is to get on top, let alone stay there for an extended period of time....
Also, I enjoy watching the Pats do what they do. Most games they are playing chess while the other team is playing checkers. I hand it Brady and Belichik. They cracked the code, and set the trends that other franchises try to follow......their division still stinks though! Haha
Fwiw, I think what the Pats have done is incredible. We will most likely never see another dynasty like this in the NFL.....I just find it comical how bad the rest of that division is year in, year out.....if anything, it gives more credence to what NE has done by showing just how hard it is to get on top, let alone stay there for an extended period of time....
Also, I enjoy watching the Pats do what they do. Most games they are playing chess while the other team is playing checkers. I hand it Brady and Belichik. They cracked the code, and set the trends that other franchises try to follow......their division still stinks though! Haha
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Bossman
Footballguy
AFC East teams are the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked.
Amazing that these teams have had 2 DECADES to figure it out and still can not.
... but seems that every division has at least 2 cup-cakes ... some 3.
rockaction
Footballguy
To be fair, you could make an argument that those teams have been horribly managed from ownership on down and really have ####ed it up for two decades.
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
He'll get it squared away before the tough stretch. If not, we'll pick up Adam after the Colts cut him.
#chess
Bossman
Footballguy
Lets see how the pathetic AFC East does against your powerhouse NFC East teams this year.
already BUF tuned up the mighty NYG team. Just doubled their score is all. Now which of these teams is the "gimmie"?
and are you real confident that WAS could beat any AFC team other than tanking MIA? Talk about a "gimmie". There's 2 right there for your Cowboys.
PHI has been underwhelming to the point that I'm expecting BUF to be the favorite in their week 8 matchup. BUF>PHI
Hopefully you stick around to discuss weak divisions when the chips have fallen.
Casting Couch
Footballguy
It's one team outside of NEP that currently has any credibility whatsoever. (BUF) The other 2 teams are bottom of the barrel. AFC East is the weakest division in football.
Manster
Footballguy
Bossman
Footballguy
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I've posted similar thoughts in other places, so I may be repeating myself. But this looks like a year where there will be some teams with seemingly good records and multiple teams that will end the year without many wins. The net effect may be that when the music stops, there may be teams with double digit wins that don't get a playoff invitation.
So far, MIA, NYJ, CIN, PIT, DEN, OAK, WAS, NYG, and ARI don't appear to be all that fierce. That's 25-30% of the league.If a franchise was fortunate enough to get a number of those teams on their schedule, they will benefit. Certainly things can and will change, but for now it looks like there a the have's and the have not's.
As an example, BUF already beat the Giants, Jets, and Bengals. They still get MIA x 2, NYJ, PIT, DEN, and WAS. That's 9 games against the teams in the "not very competitive" list I just mentioned. They should be favored in all those games. The rest of their schedule is NE x 2, TEN, PHI, CLE, DAL, and BAL. If things play out as anticipated, they would only need one win against those 7 teams to get to 10 wins.
So far, MIA, NYJ, CIN, PIT, DEN, OAK, WAS, NYG, and ARI don't appear to be all that fierce. That's 25-30% of the league.If a franchise was fortunate enough to get a number of those teams on their schedule, they will benefit. Certainly things can and will change, but for now it looks like there a the have's and the have not's.
As an example, BUF already beat the Giants, Jets, and Bengals. They still get MIA x 2, NYJ, PIT, DEN, and WAS. That's 9 games against the teams in the "not very competitive" list I just mentioned. They should be favored in all those games. The rest of their schedule is NE x 2, TEN, PHI, CLE, DAL, and BAL. If things play out as anticipated, they would only need one win against those 7 teams to get to 10 wins.
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Casting Couch
Footballguy
I see your point, but I'm coming in from a different perspective. I see the patheticness of the 2 teams lacking credibility is unparallelled in the AFC East compared to other divisions.
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Insoxicated
This one stings.
Anyone hoping for Watson to provide surprise TE value has to be dismayed... he’ll be in blocking more often than not.
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Insoxicated
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Since you brought it up . . .
Since the league went to 32 teams and 8 divisions, here are the most consecutive non-winning seasons by each team within each division. Basically, the longest stretch for each team with 7 or fewer wins.
NFC East: DAL 1, PHI 2, NYG 3, WAS 3 = 9 (Teams longer than 3 seasons = 0)
NFC South: ATL 2, CAR 3, NOS 3, TBB 5 = 13 (Teams longer than 3 seasons = 1)
AFC West: DEN 2, LAC 2, KCC 3, OAK 7 = 14 (Teams longer than 3 seasons = 1)
AFC North: PIT 1, BAL 1, CIN 3, CLE 11 = 16 (Teams longer than 3 seasons = 1)
AFC East: NEP 0, NYJ 3, MIA 4, BUF 9 = 16 (Teams longer than 3 season = 2)
AFC South: IND 1, TEN 4, HOU 5, JAC 6 = 16 (Teams longer than 3 seasons = 3)
NFC North: GBP 2, MIN 2, CHI 4, DET 9 = 17 (Teams longer than 3 seasons = 2)
NFC West: SEA 4, ARI 5, SFO 6, LAR 10 = 25 (Teams longer than 3 seasons = 4)
I'm not sure the AFC East would fall into the "unparalleled" category in terms of having multiple teams with extended stretches of losing.
Casting Couch
Footballguy
Interesting numbers, nice dig Anarchy. I would like to see the set of numbers in the last 10 years. I think it will look much different, as I am referring to this more recent time frame.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I will research that later, but IMO those numbers will be skewed. The AFC East teams start each year with 1.5 to 2.0 losses on average because they have to face NE. Plenty of teams lose to NE . . . they are more fortunate that they don’t have to play them very often.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Here are the records for each team over the 2009 - 2018 period. I am off by a game somewhere, but close enough . . .Casting Couch said:
Team W L T
NEP 123 37
MIA 72 88
NYJ 70 90
BUF 67 93
PIT 103 56 1
BAL 93 67
CIN 85 73 2
CLE 41 118 1
IND 89 71
HOU 81 79
TEN 68 92
JAC 52 108
DEN 90 70
KCC 88 72
LAC 85 75
OAK 61 99
DAL 89 71
PHI 89 71
NYG 74 86
WAS 63 96 1
GBP 100 58 2
MIN 83 75 2
CHI 75 85
DET 71 89
NOS 100 60
ATL 91 69
CAR 81 78 1
TBB 55 105
SEA 95 65 1
ARI 80 79 1
SFO 75 84 1
LAR 65 94 1
People can conclude whatever they want from that . . .
Casting Couch
Footballguy
Total wins by bottom 3 teams
AFC E 209
AFCN 219
AFC S 201
AFC W 234
NFC E 226
NFC N 229
NFC S 227
NFC W 220
Teams from the AFC S have the worst record outside of the top division team during this time frame.
AFC E 209
AFCN 219
AFC S 201
AFC W 234
NFC E 226
NFC N 229
NFC S 227
NFC W 220
Teams from the AFC S have the worst record outside of the top division team during this time frame.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Sort of a backhanded way of accounting. NE far and away had the most wins . . . So it would be expected that they beat the teams in their division and those teams had fewer wins because of it.
I have a spreadsheet with a bunch of this stuff somewhere. There are better ways of looking at this. Like team records outside their divisional opponents. I will look for that info.
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Anarchy99
Footballguy
NFL Team Records In Non-Divisional Games
That was what I posted a while back. I used 8 years because that is one complete cycle of the NFL schedule.
That was what I posted a while back. I used 8 years because that is one complete cycle of the NFL schedule.
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
I don't recommend smack talk with the state of our o line, absence of a seasoned fullback, and Edelman with sore chest...need James White to channel 28-3.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
I'm pretty sure that he had at least one season with more games passing over 300 yards than the Bills have had in total since then as well. Buffalo QBs have been especially terrible.
I like Allen, but it's to the point where fans are hanging their hats on stuff like "Josh Allen has the 2nd longest active streak of games with 200+ passing yards" ignoring that not one of those was over 300 either.
AngryPatriot
Footballguy
Brady looked so bad and skittish today along with ridiculous, scaredy cat, uncreative play calling= poop. The O sucked today. Defense was pretty good... they probably lose without the blocked punt and TD. Penalties, and a couple lucky penalties against the Bills that negated losses. Credit to Bills D. On to Washington.
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Anarchy99
Footballguy
In other years, NE would have a game like yesterday and have a 2-2 record. People would be pointing to that being the game where Brady fell off the cliff and it would signify the end of the Patriots era as a dominant team in the NFL. The good news is 1) they still won and 2) they always get better and will start hitting their stride in another couple of weeks.
With the injuries on the offensive side of the ball, they probably won't be the team that scored 30 points week in and week out for years. But they should be able to get 21-24 points (more against the bottom feeder teams) . . . maybe even more if the defense and special teams puts up points or gives the offense great field position. If they don't turn the ball over and stay away from dumb penalties, that should be plenty good enough to win (especially against the young QB's they are slated to face).
The defense should be able to carry them most of the time, and NE really should make it through the first half of the season without a loss (WAS, NYG, NYJ, CLE). By then we should know where they stand moving forward. Watson will be back next week, Harry should be back for the last couple of months, if anyone remembers or cares, Cameron Meredith is also waiting in the wings, Wynn will be coming back, Devlin might be back for the playoff push, and who knows if Gronk will show up (he would probably have to be a WR at this points as he has lost a lot of weight).
We can revisit how good this version of the team is after their 6 pack of tougher opponents (CLE, BAL, PHI, DAL, HOU, KC) starting in November.
With the injuries on the offensive side of the ball, they probably won't be the team that scored 30 points week in and week out for years. But they should be able to get 21-24 points (more against the bottom feeder teams) . . . maybe even more if the defense and special teams puts up points or gives the offense great field position. If they don't turn the ball over and stay away from dumb penalties, that should be plenty good enough to win (especially against the young QB's they are slated to face).
The defense should be able to carry them most of the time, and NE really should make it through the first half of the season without a loss (WAS, NYG, NYJ, CLE). By then we should know where they stand moving forward. Watson will be back next week, Harry should be back for the last couple of months, if anyone remembers or cares, Cameron Meredith is also waiting in the wings, Wynn will be coming back, Devlin might be back for the playoff push, and who knows if Gronk will show up (he would probably have to be a WR at this points as he has lost a lot of weight).
We can revisit how good this version of the team is after their 6 pack of tougher opponents (CLE, BAL, PHI, DAL, HOU, KC) starting in November.
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
I thought they could only take 2 of 3 back from IR between Harry, Wynn and Develin?
I would prioritize Wynn and Develin if so, because this version of the offense won't accomplish jack in the post-season.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Yes, you are right. Only can bring back 2 guys. I would rank them differently than you. I think they need OL and receiving help the most. And Develin may be the most injured of the three. The German kid can probably provide a lot of what Develin does. Develin does a lot of little things very well . . . but I think they are a lot of little things. Johnson can probably do well enough blocking that the loss of Develin won't be as noticeable in another 4 or 5 games.
Whether Harry can get integrated and in sync with Brady is another issue, but IMO they should be able to get him to run the out routes and square ins that Mitchell ran pretty easily.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Just had to post again on how silly the local sports media is when it comes to covering the team. Big picture, they have been to 9 SB's and won 6 of them in the past two decades and are currently 4-0. That being said, the way the media discusses this team, you would think the sky was falling and the Patriots were the 2019 Dolphins.
Recently, some of the comments I have heard include: that between Brady, Jimmy G, and Brissett, the Pats got stuck with the worst of the three QB's. That the offense as a whole is a hot mess and they collectively have no talent. That the defense is extremely lucky and really isn't that good . . . it's the lack of good teams and good QB's that has made them look way better than they really are. That if Gostkowski were a race horse, he would have been euthanized a long time ago. That the dumbest thing BB ever did was to bring in Antonio Brown and that will be a stain that can never be removed. That Brady is totally unhappy and is 100% gone after this year no matter what. And as always, they might as well just give away their draft picks because they don't get anything out of them as it is.
Basically, they aren't good, they have no talent, the coaches can't coach, they aren't likable, and this year is nothing but smoke and mirrors and they just aren't that good. No talent, no depth, no coaching, poor decision making, lame play calling, horrible drafting, and basically they are an inferior product masquerading as a top team based on prior success.
I considered calling in and asking what record they could they have that is better than 4-0, but I didn't want to waste my time getting flamed for being a blind homer that can't see what a total mess the team is.
Recently, some of the comments I have heard include: that between Brady, Jimmy G, and Brissett, the Pats got stuck with the worst of the three QB's. That the offense as a whole is a hot mess and they collectively have no talent. That the defense is extremely lucky and really isn't that good . . . it's the lack of good teams and good QB's that has made them look way better than they really are. That if Gostkowski were a race horse, he would have been euthanized a long time ago. That the dumbest thing BB ever did was to bring in Antonio Brown and that will be a stain that can never be removed. That Brady is totally unhappy and is 100% gone after this year no matter what. And as always, they might as well just give away their draft picks because they don't get anything out of them as it is.
Basically, they aren't good, they have no talent, the coaches can't coach, they aren't likable, and this year is nothing but smoke and mirrors and they just aren't that good. No talent, no depth, no coaching, poor decision making, lame play calling, horrible drafting, and basically they are an inferior product masquerading as a top team based on prior success.
I considered calling in and asking what record they could they have that is better than 4-0, but I didn't want to waste my time getting flamed for being a blind homer that can't see what a total mess the team is.
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
I call this northeast USA metropolitan privilege. The affliction is shared across Boston, NYC, and Philly. Fair weather / whiny baby fans and blowhard media tools.
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
I agree with you IF the German fullback can adequately cover Develin's responsibilities. I don't think that's a layup. And I tend to believe that the receiving corps of an eventually healthy Edelman, Dorsett, Gordon and Ben Watson would not be significantly improved by a first year wide receiver....but I don't claim to have the answers.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
The offense would have a lot of potential if they could bring in a high profile receiver, someone like Antonio Brown . . . oh, wait. The problem with NE and wide receivers is it's really hard to learn the playbook as an in season acquisition, so trading for someone else comes with learning curve issues . . . you never can tell you will fit in and when. Some of the people being bandied about as potential trade acquisitions sound interesting (AJ Green, Diggs, Sanders), but that is probably wishful thinking. Not sure who else would be available, as most of the decent receivers are on contending teams, and most of the productive receivers on mediocre teams are all young and have potential. The options are limited . . . unless anyone thinks someone like Larry Fitzgerald could be available (which I doubt he is).
Harry could help some if he could nail down some plays / routes / packages in certain situations. Like I mentioned somewhere in here, as a main cog as a rookie he won't do much. But as a big bodied guy, he could be a mismatch if they had Gordon, Edelman, Dorsett, and White all on the field with him. Have those 4 guys do their thing and have Harry run a sideline route or a deeper route with a back shoulder throw and suddenly that could be a big help (like Amendola, Mitchell, LaFell, Branch, etc. ran before him).
Also discussed earlier, the OL compared to last year is a mess. They also don't have Gronk and Allen as road graders to push people around. The replacement level guys on the line appear to be passable in pass protection and maybe straight ahead run blocking, but NE moves lineman around in their run schemes that hasn't been working so well so far. The running game seems destined to be average (best case) to non-existent (worse case).
In prior years, with similar offensive issues and scheme questions, the team would be 2-2 at this point. Also in prior years, the defense would have had a game or two where they gave up 30 or 40 points and the sky would be falling. Like every other season, they will continue to improve and work things out. And like every other season, who is healthy at the end of the regular season will dictate how far they advance in the tournament. The two years they faced Denver in the AFCC, they were a M*A*S*H unit.
Bossman
Footballguy
I'm not worried about NE's WR corps. Dorsett is handling the role AB would have played pretty well.
If Gordon and Edelman can get healthy ... that's enough for Brady / Belichick / McDaniels
Poor O-line play is the main reason for lack of offense last week. Well, that and a decent Bills defense.
WR's could not get separation within the 1.5 seconds that Brady had to get rid of the ball.
Watson back this week should help some with blocking and another outlet in the quick passing game.
Pats hopefully can iron out more wrinkles this week against the tanking Redskins.
Another "layup" game here and hopefully they have the offense figured out before they face some real teams in a few weeks.