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Indefinite New England Patriots Thread


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1 minute ago, SeniorVBDStudent said:

We agree wrt JG.  I wan't to believe Cam is better than 2020 Cam.

Things Cam can do better on in 2021:

- Avoid getting COVID
- Better grasp of the playbook
- Upgraded skill position players
- More practice time

Things I am not sure Cam will do better in 2021:

- Pocket presence and spacing within the pocket
- Decision making
- Untimely turnovers / hero ball
- Shoulder may be shot / can't throw more than 10 yards
- Accuracy
- Other injuries

So sure, that first grouping should lead him to do a little better. But that second grouping probably keeps him at a below average productivity level.

I am not sure if the running game and defense are good enough to overcome Newton's limitations. Certainly I hope he can do a lot better than he showed last year.

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Alright. I figure this is as good of a place to do this as any. I've been on the Brady and Patriot hate train for a very long time. What we saw last night was the poise of a legendary QB and coach,

I heart BB when he talks X's and O's. Just heard radio interview with Hoodie and morphed into 15 minute discussion on Randy Moss. Said Moss is the smartest receiver he's ever seen.  Mentioned tha

Yeah, well he literally tried to **** our daughter, so he's not as high on my list as yours.

55 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

No. But if SF fashions themselves as legit contenders this year, they will need someone that knows their system and has experience (ie, not a rookie). I have seen scenarios where the Niners ended up with Darnold once the Jets take Wilson, but that would make a lot less sense now.

Why would anyone want Darnold? 
 

Watch somehow everything is going good for us actually buying free agents at record levels for us and Belichick trades a boat load for Darnold just to trigger me. 

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1 minute ago, Blackbear said:

So Stidham for you? If not Stidham, then who? 

I don't like Stidham much either . . . given that he doesn't really seem much more than a Summer Camp Program Coordinator these days. Having some teammates over to play catch is nice and all, but that is probably trying to score brownie points with BB.

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1 minute ago, Blackbear said:

Why would anyone want Darnold? 
 

Watch somehow everything is going good for us actually buying free agents at record levels for us and Belichick trades a boat load for Darnold just to trigger me. 

Why would anyone want Garoppolo?

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2 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

Why would anyone want Garoppolo?

If you take away the injury risk he is good. He did go to the super bowl... though didn’t fair well in that super bowl. Darnold has not done a damn thing. And he was out with injury too. If this team gets Darnold then I’m going to rage drop them. Please don’t mention this guy as any sort of good thing again. He sucks. You know that.

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Just now, Blackbear said:

If you take away the injury risk he is good. He did go to the super bowl... though didn’t fair well in that super bowl. Darnold has not done a damn thing. And he was out with injury too. If this team gets Darnold then I’m going to rage drop them. Please don’t mention this guy as any sort of good thing again. He sucks. You know that.

I never once suggested he was good. But the Jets coach came from the SF organization, which is why people are connecting the dots to get Darnold to the 49ers. I don't see any desire for NE to have the slightest bit of interest in him.

That doesn't change the overriding issue that I just don't think Jimmy G much more than average. Yes, the Niners won games with him when their defense was out of this world, scary good. He had 11 games with 30+ passing attempts and a passer rating of 90+ and 7 games with 30+ passes and a passer rating of under 85.

Do you consider the NE offense overall as being better or worse than the 49ers?

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There have been a bunch of callers lately on talk radio asking how the Pats would do this season with Brady instead of Newton (with the same roster they have now). That's not exactly a fair question, as things would have played out much differently to get to this point. The question has mostly been avoided with BETTER being the simple response. Would they be considered better than the Chiefs / Bills / Ravens / Dolphins / Browns / Colts?

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16 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

I never once suggested he was good. But the Jets coach came from the SF organization, which is why people are connecting the dots to get Darnold to the 49ers. I don't see any desire for NE to have the slightest bit of interest in him.

That doesn't change the overriding issue that I just don't think Jimmy G much more than average. Yes, the Niners won games with him when their defense was out of this world, scary good. He had 11 games with 30+ passing attempts and a passer rating of 90+ and 7 games with 30+ passes and a passer rating of under 85.

Do you consider the NE offense overall as being better or worse than the 49ers?

49ers better with Jimmy G. If Patriots had Jimmy G then Patriots better. 

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Just now, Blackbear said:

49ers better with Jimmy G. If Patriots had Jimmy G then Patriots better. 

Mike Giardi tweeted that there are at least two other teams interested in Garoppolo, so the narrative that he ends up in NE after being cut or traded for a half eaten bag of peanuts is not going to materialize.

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5 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

There have been a bunch of callers lately on talk radio asking how the Pats would do this season with Brady instead of Newton (with the same roster they have now). That's not exactly a fair question, as things would have played out much differently to get to this point. The question has mostly been avoided with BETTER being the simple response. Would they be considered better than the Chiefs / Bills / Ravens / Dolphins / Browns / Colts?

Maybe not Chiefs, but better than the rest mentioned.

 

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1 minute ago, Anarchy99 said:

Mike Giardi tweeted that there are at least two other teams interested in Garoppolo, so the narrative that he ends up in NE after being cut or traded for a half eaten bag of peanuts is not going to materialize.

A half eaten bag of peanuts? We could give him a decent contract. 14 million with incentives. 🙂

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22 minutes ago, Blackbear said:

A half eaten bag of peanuts? We could give him a decent contract. 14 million with incentives. 🙂

With multiple suitors, the only way to get him will be by trade. NE only has $11M in cap space. Jimmy carries a $25M cap hit. Teams have to be able to take on a player and be under the cap. So they would need to clear the cap room first (and still have room for rookie picks). Short of that, they would need Garopollo to waive his no trade clause and tear up his contract with the Niners to a much lower number before he could be traded. What are the chances of that happening?

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Schefter doubling down. Saying SF are telling him Jimmy is their guy this year and he’s not going anywhere. Could the Niners be yanking his chain? Sure. Could they change their mind? Sure. But they would need someone to start the season as their starter or at the very least have an experienced starter on the roster. 

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33 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

With multiple suitors, the only way to get him will be by trade. NE only has $11M in cap space. Jimmy carries a $25M cap hit. Teams have to be able to take on a player and be under the cap. So they would need to clear the cap room first (and still have room for rookie picks). Short of that, they would need Garopollo to waive his no trade clause and tear up his contract with the Niners to a much lower number before he could be traded. What are the chances of that happening?

Since they are drafting a high-end rookie and he is a short-timer in in San Fran if this helps him go where wants to be there is a good chance he plays ball with his contract but by no means is he going to sign a cut-rate deal, it will still be real money...on the flip side as you point out I gotta believe the Niners don’t deal him unless they can bring in another solid bridge veteran (or keep Jimmy G for one more year), they are too good to be put in that position.

 

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18 minutes ago, Boston said:

Since they are drafting a high-end rookie and he is a short-timer in in San Fran if this helps him go where wants to be there is a good chance he plays ball with his contract but by no means is he going to sign a cut-rate deal, it will still be real money...on the flip side as you point out I gotta believe the Niners don’t deal him unless they can bring in another solid bridge veteran (or keep Jimmy G for one more year), they are too good to be put in that position.

 

IMO, the situation is similar to Alex Smith when he was in KC. 

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3 hours ago, Blackbear said:

Why would anyone want Darnold? 
 

Watch somehow everything is going good for us actually buying free agents at record levels for us and Belichick trades a boat load for Darnold just to trigger me. 

We disagree here.  I think Darnold's ceiling is higher than that of Tannehill or Josh Allen, and he's been squandered to date in the disfunction of the Jets organization.  Salah is a good addition for them.

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21 minutes ago, SeniorVBDStudent said:

We disagree here.  I think Darnold's ceiling is higher than that of Tannehill or Josh Allen, and he's been squandered to date in the disfunction of the Jets organization.  Salah is a good addition for them.

🙂

Josh Allen? Did you see the stats he put up last year? 🤣

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4 minutes ago, osubuckeyeman said:

Kyle Trask could be interesting for the Pats. I think he as good or actually better than Jones.

I am far more sold on Jones than Trask but if the Pats are sold on Trask it would appear he would be far more easy to obtain as he almost certainly will be there at #15...the other QB some like in the "second tier" is Mond from Texas A&M who doesn't do too much for me...overall I want the Pats to add two QBs...whether it is Jimmy G and a draft pick, a high pick and a vet like Minshew or a high draft pick and another lower one like Book or the kid from Cinncinati they need to get this position figured out this year...they have done a good job (on paper at least) reloading and if they can get competent QB play they could be a dangerous team.

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1 hour ago, Boston said:

I am far more sold on Jones than Trask but if the Pats are sold on Trask it would appear he would be far more easy to obtain as he almost certainly will be there at #15...the other QB some like in the "second tier" is Mond from Texas A&M who doesn't do too much for me...overall I want the Pats to add two QBs...whether it is Jimmy G and a draft pick, a high pick and a vet like Minshew or a high draft pick and another lower one like Book or the kid from Cinncinati they need to get this position figured out this year...they have done a good job (on paper at least) reloading and if they can get competent QB play they could be a dangerous team.

On this podcast the guy says Pats have calls into Atl and Cincy. https://youtu.be/mMI8gUttpIE

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2 minutes ago, Blackbear said:

On this podcast the guy says Pats have calls into Atl and Cincy. https://youtu.be/mMI8gUttpIE

I am starting to get less convinced NE will be willing to invest what it takes to move up to #4 to ensure they get the 4th QB off the board while also outbidding multiple other suitors. And I am also inclined to think that a team behind them will want the #15 pick. So at this particular moment I see them trading down in the first round (but staying in the first round) while adding a second this year and a third next year. Then they use the first rounder on a tackle and a second rounder on Trask. I think that is a better plan than trading for Garoppolo, but that is certainly open for debate.

That being said, I haven't seen SF linked to Fields (who I like . . . especially over Lance and Jones). So as a fan I would love it if they swung for the fences. But as an historian, I would say the chances of hitting pay dirt on the 4th QB in a class isn't great. As we all know, taking a QB in the first round is a 50/50 proposition at best. But now multiply that times 3 because it would take 2 extra firsts to get up high enough to draft one. It's like praying for an inside straight on the river when two of the four cards neded were already folded by other players at the table.

That's my morning thought of the moment anyway.

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36 minutes ago, SeniorVBDStudent said:

I wonder what the odds are that NONE of the following are cut after draft day?

JG, Darnold, Tua, Ryan.

A related question: who would the Patriots be competing with if any/all are trade candidates?

Curran wrote an article and had discussion on NE playing the waiting game again this year like they did last year and a QB will materialize after all the music stops (post free agency, post trades, post draft, post market correction after draft, etc.). By then there won’t be any openings and there won’t be any competition for NE. The problem with that strategy is you get the last possible QB to be your QB. Generally speaking, it’s hard to be a true contender shopping in the QB discount bin. 

As for you question, I see SF, MIA, and ATL keeping who they have this year. And someone will trade for Darnold. But there could be someone like Bridgewater as one of the leftovers. 

I think ATL will get a king’s ransom and will move down. DEN, CAR, and CHI could easily be candidates to move up. I also think if Watson looks like he might be in a better place in a month or two that maybe NE makes a run at him once teams are pretty much set at QB. I don’t think that will happen, but crazier things have happened (albeit not many).

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On 3/27/2021 at 3:41 PM, SeniorVBDStudent said:

I wonder what the odds are that NONE of the following are cut after draft day?

JG, Darnold, Tua, Ryan.

A related question: who would the Patriots be competing with if any/all are trade candidates?

I think this is likely. I think Atlanta is closer to being a good team than people think. They’ve had a quiet offseason but efficient. They’re in a prime spot to trade back. If they were moving on from Ryan they would have traded him when there was a market for qbs. They were winning a lot of games last year that they simply blew leads in. No reason to drop jimmy g even if they draft a qb, especially if it’s trey lance, who probably needs a year to acclimate. Maybe the jets drop darnold, but there’s probably some team that would give something for him, and they may just keep him because 17 game season will require a competent backup. 
I don’t know why you’d think Tua would be released. Maybe that was written before they traded that pick? 
 

Pats trade competition? I don’t know, most teams seem settled at qb for this year, right? Bears probably should, but they’re making all sorts of wacky moves. I think a handful of teams are content with a stopgap starter and hope to maybe land a 2nd tier developmental guy for this year. Washington could make a move I suppose, but seems like they see a window with that defense.

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On 3/26/2021 at 9:07 AM, Anarchy99 said:

Lawrence Guy’s contract is one where the numbers are both high and low. 4 years worth up to $24M. But it’s really 4 years for $11.5M and the rest is all incentives. 

White’s contract has some weird language that makes his cap number only $1.2M. Bottom line, NE with a smidge under $12M left in cap space as currently constituted. But they certainly have ways to free up more space if needed. 

Do we know what they are estimated to pay for their rookies (with the current slotting of their picks)?

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On 3/26/2021 at 2:14 PM, Anarchy99 said:

Except the Niners are already saying they are keeping Garoppolo for this year. So unless BB really wants to make a Godfather trade to move up, it's another year of Cam (and maybe the guy they take in the 2nd round).

Just tossing this out there.  This is my speculation - I didn't hear it anywhere.

But if the 49ers take a project QB at 1.03 (like Trey Lance) as opposed to someone more ready to play right off (like Mac Jones), could it be possible the Patriots trade Cam and their 2nd this year for Jimmy G?  I just cannot see Belichick trading a 1st for Jimmy G.  Not saying he won't - just saying I cannot see it.

I really CAN see the 49ers wanting to keep Jimmy G this year if they draft Lance to give him a good amount of time, even up to the whole 2021 season, to come up-to-speed with the NFL; on the other hand, if they draft Jones, Cam could be there as a "let's start him for a few games" sort of QB for the 49ers.  Cam IS more in line with the running/movement QB I believe the 49ers are set up for.

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2 minutes ago, Spike said:

Do we know what they are estimated to pay for their rookies (with the current slotting of their picks)?

With the league moving to a 17 game schedule, for some reason, that gave them another $700K in cap space to get them to $12.6M.

Accounting for rookies and the cap gets a bit murky.

If they use them all (they won't) at the positions that they are currently slotted . . . it would cost them $4.8M. But only the Top 51 contracts and dead money count against the cap, so it is estimated the draft picks would only count $3.3M against the cap.

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4 minutes ago, Spike said:

Just tossing this out there.  This is my speculation - I didn't hear it anywhere.

But if the 49ers take a project QB at 1.03 (like Trey Lance) as opposed to someone more ready to play right off (like Mac Jones), could it be possible the Patriots trade Cam and their 2nd this year for Jimmy G?  I just cannot see Belichick trading a 1st for Jimmy G.  Not saying he won't - just saying I cannot see it.

I really CAN see the 49ers wanting to keep Jimmy G this year if they draft Lance to give him a good amount of time, even up to the whole 2021 season, to come up-to-speed with the NFL; on the other hand, if they draft Jones, Cam could be there as a "let's start him for a few games" sort of QB for the 49ers.  Cam IS more in line with the running/movement QB I believe the 49ers are set up for.

I don't see any way NE would trade a first for Garoppolo. A first round rookie could be had for cheap dollars for 5 seasons. Jimmy G. would cost them $51M for only 2 seasons of control (unless they re-did his contract). As already mentioned, the logistics of getting him under the cap would be extremely tough and would require both Jimmy and the 49ers to do things on their end that would not help them at all in able to get Garoppolo into a Patriots uniform.

Moving Cam in the deal is mostly irrelevant to getting a deal done. The Niners could have shown interest in signing Newton as a free agency signing and didn't. I am sure if there was a better offer on the horizon that Cam would have taken it, but he instead took a backup level contract with incentives he mostly will never see unless he plays like 2015 and the Pats win the SB. The other issue for Newton is he strikes me as the type that needs a lot of time to get to know a playbook and requires a lot of practice time to learn what he needs to do. That was an issue in NE. He doesn't strike me as the cerebral type. I am not sure SF would pick him as the guy to come in and do a crash course and deep dive into their playbook to start at the beginning of the season. In fact, he'd probably be one of the last guys I would pick to do that.

One of the possible trade scenarios had Gilmore and a lower pick going to SF for Garoppolo, but it's looking more like Gilmore sticks around. Even that trade wouldn't free up enough money to bring back Garoppolo, as NE would be on the hook for $7.6M against the cap as soon as he is off the Patriots roster. Given that he is actually slotted as a $15M cap charge this year, they would actual net $7.3M in cap savings . . . but that only gets them about halfway to the cap space needed to absorb Garoppolo onto their 2021 books.

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Oh . . . forgot to calculate for Chung's retirement. He can help out NE some by refusing something like $900,000 in bonuses. He has some roster bonuses due (technically he is still on their roster for now). If he retires after 6/1, then NE will have to take a $4.3M cap charge this year and a $3.6 million cap charge for 2022. I assume if the bonuses come off the books, they would only have to take a $3.4 million cap hit for 2021 instead of $4.3M. Bottom line, they have less cap space available than I posted.

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4 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

Oh . . . forgot to calculate for Chung's retirement. He can help out NE some by refusing something like $900,000 in bonuses. He has some roster bonuses due (technically he is still on their roster for now). If he retires after 6/1, then NE will have to take a $4.3M cap charge this year and a $3.6 million cap charge for 2022. I assume if the bonuses come off the books, they would only have to take a $3.4 million cap hit for 2021 instead of $4.3M. Bottom line, they have less cap space available than I posted.

I don’t know enough about the cap machinations, but why would Chung refuse bonuses?

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Just now, Bayhawks said:

I don’t know enough about the cap machinations, but why would Chung refuse bonuses?

Because he retired. He has no intention to play this year, yet he is still on the books and slated to get $900,000 for being on the roster. When the paperwork gets filed impacts the salary cap for this year and next year, so he could be nice and help them out and not take the money. 

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2 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

Because he retired. He has no intention to play this year, yet he is still on the books and slated to get $900,000 for being on the roster. When the paperwork gets filed impacts the salary cap for this year and next year, so he could be nice and help them out and not take the money. 

Isn't that kind of "nice" reserved for quarterbacks and superstars who have already banked 9 figures?  I only ask because other than Drew Brees I don't recall any player being this "nice".  Asking from ignorance.

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7 minutes ago, SeniorVBDStudent said:

Isn't that kind of "nice" reserved for quarterbacks and superstars who have already banked 9 figures?  I only ask because other than Drew Brees I don't recall any player being this "nice".  Asking from ignorance.

I wish I had an informed answer to give you but all I can say is I don’t know either. NE may have decided not to fight giving him the money or essentially felt he earned it. Similarly, I believe they would be in the right to demand a portion of his signing bonus returned and credited to them and I have not seen anything written about that either. 

Historically I think players retiring have had different wrinkles from player to player. Andrew Luck was gifted all he was due from the Colts and he kept all his signing bonus money. I don’t think there is a uniform outcome for these situations. 

The Patriots may have already paid Chung his bonuses and could have moved on and don’t care. It’s not a ton of money and won’t impact their cap total all that much. Wish I could provide a better answer, but that’s all I’ve got. 

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10 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

Stephen A. suggested a trade . . . Jimmy G for Newton straight up. I'm guessing that would be an empathic "no way" from the 49ers.

What use would that be for them. Newton would need learn system. They could just sign back up to cheap money. I would guess they would want different player/s and or picks.

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Just now, Mingooch said:

It also would not fit under the cap

That part is obvious. But from a trade value perspective, Cam couldn't find a team last year in free agency and wasn't going to get much consideration this year either (and thus opted to re-sign with NE). He was essentially a street free agent. The Niners are said to want a first round pick plus potentially more in return for Newton. That was the part that I chuckled at . . . trading a guy that 31 teams passed on twice for what the other team feels is a guy worth a first round pick for.

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I’m just feeling Bill has his “diamond in the rough” target at qb. His next Brady. Or not. This draft he moves down often, picking up a ton of future capitol when everyone else starts FA shopping. 

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5 hours ago, Blackbear said:

Sewell and Pitts are hall of famers. Lance may be. 

I was going to post "what are the chances a QB from the Missouri Valley Conference makes the HOF?" But I forgot about Kurt Warner (Northern Iowa).

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