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Alright. I figure this is as good of a place to do this as any. I've been on the Brady and Patriot hate train for a very long time. What we saw last night was the poise of a legendary QB and coach,

I heart BB when he talks X's and O's. Just heard radio interview with Hoodie and morphed into 15 minute discussion on Randy Moss. Said Moss is the smartest receiver he's ever seen.  Mentioned tha

Yeah, well he literally tried to **** our daughter, so he's not as high on my list as yours.

6 minutes ago, Blackbear said:

Here is a decent summary for draftable QBs outside the top 5... https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/patriots/2021-nfl-draft-patriots-best-quarterback-options-outside-first-round

If it is likely Pats don’t trade up and likely they don’t trade for Jimmy G... then it must be likely one of the guys in that article comes to New England. 

I heard the perfect summary of the non Top 5 QBs on a podcast with Evan Lazar as a guest. They are all a bunch of Jarrett Stidham's. They all have limitations, warts, and blemishes and have a long way to go to become competent NFL QBs. I forgot whose podcast he was on, but the point was if they DON'T get one of the Top 5 (Top 4 really, as they didn't feel Jones was in the same class as the others), then they are just wasting a pick. Essentially, Stidham with two years in the system would be more productive than starting over with another project that would have to be developed and would be where Stidham is now in two years.

That made sense to me, as they suggested the likely career path for the Day 2 and 3 guys in this class was as NFL backups. Lazar is not just some blowhard talking head media type . . . he actually watched tape on all the QBs and posted his analysis of all of them.

His opinion was that if they can't swing a trade up for one of the main rookies, they would be better off using their picks to continue to build up the talent and depth on the roster and either see who might become available between the draft and training camp as a better stop gap for this year and / or try again next year when there might be more cuts / free agents, trade options, or guys available in the draft. As for talk that next year's draft is said to be a week crop of QBs, remember that at the start of this season, Wilson and Jones were not slated to be hot commodities like they are now . . . so there could be guys that emerge.

Again, it seemed logical to me to see if maybe Watson, Ryan, Garoppolo, Bridgewater, etc. might become available if they come up short on the Big 4/5 rookies. Maybe they have a higher grade on one of the Day 2/3 QBs and feel they can work with one of them, but I am not convinced after so many QBs have come off the board that there will be a legit QB with franchise upside still available. The only QBs not named Brady that were drafted as the 6th QB or later in the last 20 drafts that amounted to much of anything were Dak Prescott, Russell Wilson, and Kirk Cousins. Maybe there is a guy this year like one of them, but I think the chances are slim.

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26 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

I heard the perfect summary of the non Top 5 QBs on a podcast with Evan Lazar as a guest. They are all a bunch of Jarrett Stidham's. They all have limitations, warts, and blemishes and have a long way to go to become competent NFL QBs. I forgot whose podcast he was on, but the point was if they DON'T get one of the Top 5 (Top 4 really, as they didn't feel Jones was in the same class as the others), then they are just wasting a pick. Essentially, Stidham with two years in the system would be more productive than starting over with another project that would have to be developed and would be where Stidham is now in two years.

That made sense to me, as they suggested the likely career path for the Day 2 and 3 guys in this class was as NFL backups. Lazar is not just some blowhard talking head media type . . . he actually watched tape on all the QBs and posted his analysis of all of them.

His opinion was that if they can't swing a trade up for one of the main rookies, they would be better off using their picks to continue to build up the talent and depth on the roster and either see who might become available between the draft and training camp as a better stop gap for this year and / or try again next year when there might be more cuts / free agents, trade options, or guys available in the draft. As for talk that next year's draft is said to be a week crop of QBs, remember that at the start of this season, Wilson and Jones were not slated to be hot commodities like they are now . . . so there could be guys that emerge.

Again, it seemed logical to me to see if maybe Watson, Ryan, Garoppolo, Bridgewater, etc. might become available if they come up short on the Big 4/5 rookies. Maybe they have a higher grade on one of the Day 2/3 QBs and feel they can work with one of them, but I am not convinced after so many QBs have come off the board that there will be a legit QB with franchise upside still available. The only QBs not named Brady that were drafted as the 6th QB or later in the last 20 drafts that amounted to much of anything were Dak Prescott, Russell Wilson, and Kirk Cousins. Maybe there is a guy this year like one of them, but I think the chances are slim.

I don’t want them to be passive and not try drafting any QBs. It is what they did last season and didn’t work. Sure Newton fell to them in free agency. But he turned out not to be that great of a passer. Problem is that the Pats had already seen Stidham and didn’t start him even when Newton was out. He got mop up duty. He evidently isn’t the answer if they never trusted to play him despite Newton being bad down the stretch. So banking on Stidham seems like a blunder. Not addressing the QB position was an issue last season. I’d rather them take a shot on someone in the draft. They have plenty of picks to package together to trade up. Because of the free agency they had, there are not a lot of immediate needs if any if you can retain JC Jackson and Stephon Gilmore. So the Pats have to draft a QB somehow.

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They absolutely need to upgrade their QB position this offseason, if not you have a ceiling on this season and are right back in the same spot next year (although it's probably worst because they should have a better record this year with all the FA signings)...we dealt with this nonsense last year and it did not work...neither Cam or Stidham are the answer and if there is not an upgrade than this franchise can make as many FA signings as they want or draft as many players as they want but they will not be a serious contender for a championship.

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33 minutes ago, Boston said:

They absolutely need to upgrade their QB position this offseason, if not you have a ceiling on this season and are right back in the same spot next year (although it's probably worst because they should have a better record this year with all the FA signings)...we dealt with this nonsense last year and it did not work...neither Cam or Stidham are the answer and if there is not an upgrade than this franchise can make as many FA signings as they want or draft as many players as they want but they will not be a serious contender for a championship.

First let me say that I agree with you . . . that being said, if the Top 5 rookie QBs are off the board, what other options are there? What else would would want them to do? We are 99% certain QBs will go 1-2-3 in the draft. Let's say the Falcons keep their pick and draft QB4. At that point, there is one QB left and plenty of teams in the market for a QB. NE may not have a shot at one of the main rookies, even if they want to move up.

There really are no viable options as free agents (Alex Smith)? Trading for Watson or Wilson is never going to happen. Say the 49ers keep Jimmy and other teams aren't willing to part with the veteran guys they are upgrading from. Is Sam Darnold an upgrade if he is available? Gardner Minshew? Nick Foles? Josh Rosen?

Like I mentioned earlier, some folks are grading out the Day 2/3 draft options in the same range as Stidham. Sure, I agree that Stidham isn't great, but any of the other guys will take time to stand any chance of developing (Trask, Neuman, Mond, Mills, etc.).

Bottom line, other than waving a magic wand, there's a chance they could get shut out at having a legit QB upgrade this season. I wouldn't be happy with that outcome either, but I am not sure there are guys that are true upgrades available. Maybe they get lucky and can move up in the draft to snag someone. Maybe they can get a veteran in somehow. We'll have to see how things go, but there is a decent chance they will end up like they were last year (trying to find a QB from whomever is leftover).

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27 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

First let me say that I agree with you . . . that being said, if the Top 5 rookie QBs are off the board, what other options are there? What else would would want them to do? We are 99% certain QBs will go 1-2-3 in the draft. Let's say the Falcons keep their pick and draft QB4. At that point, there is one QB left and plenty of teams in the market for a QB. NE may not have a shot at one of the main rookies, even if they want to move up.

There really are no viable options as free agents (Alex Smith)? Trading for Watson or Wilson is never going to happen. Say the 49ers keep Jimmy and other teams aren't willing to part with the veteran guys they are upgrading from. Is Sam Darnold an upgrade if he is available? Gardner Minshew? Nick Foles? Josh Rosen?

Like I mentioned earlier, some folks are grading out the Day 2/3 draft options in the same range as Stidham. Sure, I agree that Stidham isn't great, but any of the other guys will take time to stand any chance of developing (Trask, Neuman, Mond, Mills, etc.).

Bottom line, other than waving a magic wand, there's a chance they could get shut out at having a legit QB upgrade this season. I wouldn't be happy with that outcome either, but I am not sure there are guys that are true upgrades available. Maybe they get lucky and can move up in the draft to snag someone. Maybe they can get a veteran in somehow. We'll have to see how things go, but there is a decent chance they will end up like they were last year (trying to find a QB from whomever is leftover).

My answer is very blunt...anyone but Cam...he is horrible and it is a lost season with him...if you can't get a top 5 rookie or Jimmy G I would definitely take Darnold but I don't see the Jets dealing him to the Pats...I think you could have a viable passing game with Minshew and if you are going to have a D-first/grind it out team I would much rather have Alex Smith or Foles...worst case is you add one of them to Cam and after that I would draft two second-tier rookies and pray to the football Gods you get lucky...I love what they have done this off-season but would hate for it to be all for nothing because you have horrible QB play.

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3 minutes ago, Boston said:

My answer is very blunt...anyone but Cam...he is horrible and it is a lost season with him...if you can't get a top 5 rookie or Jimmy G I would definitely take Darnold but I don't see the Jets dealing him to the Pats...I think you could have a viable passing game with Minshew and if you are going to have a D-first/grind it out team I would much rather have Alex Smith or Foles...worst case is you add one of them to Cam and after that I would draft two second-tier rookies and pray to the football Gods you get lucky...I love what they have done this off-season but would hate for it to be all for nothing because you have horrible QB play.

I am sure they have done a deep dive into the incoming rookies and kept tabs on everyone in the league already. But I don’t get the sense they will move heaven and earth to obtain a QB. Maybe they would trade a future first or a couple of lower picks. But I don’t see BB  parting with two firsts and a 3rd to move up 10 or 11 spots. I’d love if ATL took a QB, got Ryan to rework his deal, and then shipped him to the Pats. 

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9 minutes ago, Boston said:

My answer is very blunt...anyone but Cam...he is horrible and it is a lost season with him...if you can't get a top 5 rookie or Jimmy G I would definitely take Darnold but I don't see the Jets dealing him to the Pats...I think you could have a viable passing game with Minshew and if you are going to have a D-first/grind it out team I would much rather have Alex Smith or Foles...worst case is you add one of them to Cam and after that I would draft two second-tier rookies and pray to the football Gods you get lucky...I love what they have done this off-season but would hate for it to be all for nothing because you have horrible QB play.

Just came out from Giardi says 49ers want a first round pick for Jimmy. Maybe this is a good option. But he’d probably need to be restructured. He might be willing to restructure contract since he’s looking at being phased out in SF.

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Just now, Anarchy99 said:

I am sure they have done a deep dive into the incoming rookies and kept tabs on everyone in the league already. But I don’t get the sense they will move heaven and earth to obtain a QB. Maybe they would trade a future first or a couple of lower picks. But I don’t see BB  parting with two firsts and a 3rd to move up 10 or 11 spots. I’d love if ATL took a QB, got Ryan to rework his deal, and then shipped him to the Pats. 

Until they address the QB they are running in-place...I get it about not mortgaging the future but there is no future until this position gets settled...if they make the move you said and hit on it that deal is a steal and allows the franchise to move forward...at some point you gotta rip the band-aid off because another sixth round pick is not gonna solve this issue.

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8 minutes ago, Blackbear said:

Just came out from Giardi says 49ers want a first round pick for Jimmy. Maybe this is a good option. But he’d probably need to be restructured. He might be willing to restructure contract since he’s looking at being phased out in SF.

They know him as well as anyone...if they think he can be a legit starter I would do it...I don't care about this overpay nonsense, if you think he is a quality starter in their system this maybe the least you have to give up to get this position settled.

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3 minutes ago, Boston said:

They know him as well as anyone...if they think he can be a legit starter I would do it...I don't care about this overpay nonsense, if you think he is a quality starter in their system this maybe the least you have to give up to get this position settled.

Well, Belichick wanted to keep him. Did him a favor and took less to deal him to a good situation. He’s familiar with the coaching staff. He’s been decent when he was healthy. The organization likes him and the fans for the most part do. He’d have to waive his no trade clause and probably take a pay cut. But the team is set up for him to be dropped in. Give him a shot I say. Patriots have had a lot of busts on early draft picks. I say give it a whirl. 

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Just now, Blackbear said:

Well, Belichick wanted to keep him. Did him a favor and took less to deal him to a good situation. He’s familiar with the coaching staff. He’s been decent when he was healthy. The organization likes him and the fans for the most part do. He’d have to waive his no trade clause and probably take a pay cut. But the team is set up for him to be dropped in. Give him a shot I say. Patriots have had a lot of busts on early draft picks. I say give it a whirl. 

Agreed...and as I will continue to say...if you don't do this or trade up for one of the big 5 what is plan B?  You can not waste two years and still be in the same spot this time next year...that is unacceptable.

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7 minutes ago, Boston said:

Agreed...and as I will continue to say...if you don't do this or trade up for one of the big 5 what is plan B?  You can not waste two years and still be in the same spot this time next year...that is unacceptable.

The problem with trading for Garoppolo is that would put them $13-14M over the cap. And on the injury front, he’s missed half of his career starts. 

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3 minutes ago, Boston said:

Agreed...and as I will continue to say...if you don't do this or trade up for one of the big 5 what is plan B?  You can not waste two years and still be in the same spot this time next year...that is unacceptable.

Seems like a good plan is trade for Jimmy. If fails, try trade up. If it fails draft 2nd tier QB in draft. Then see if a guy gets cut or you can trade for something before training camp. The point is, gotta try in progression and hope you have upgraded along the way. I don’t think they will be shut out. They may need to pay more than they want in draft capital, but a deal can be reached. IThe top scenario is you get Jimmy for future first. You see what falls at 15, take best available. You enter camp with four QBs and cut/trade Stidham. 

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1 minute ago, Anarchy99 said:

The problem with trading for Garoppolo is that would put them $13-14M over the cap. And on the injury front, he’s missed half of his career starts. 

This is why I said restructuring his contract.

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The x-factor is does Jimmy G want to go back to New England...if so, I don't have any concerns that they can figure out a way to restructure the contract or that the Pats can find some room...he's a short-timer in San Fran and if he can dictate his next team and be in a position to be a long-term starter I think he will be flexible with a new deal although it's not gonna be cut-rate.

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4 minutes ago, Blackbear said:

We took a step down. NY Jets just got stronger. 

They did? The Jets were taking Wilson regardless and they were not going to roll out Darnold again. They get a 6th round pick this year (the other picks are next year). If you want to say the Jets are better with Wilson, sure I get that. But we already knew that, so I guess my question is what else changed?

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Just now, Anarchy99 said:

They did? The Jets were taking Wilson regardless and they were not going to roll out Darnold again. They get a 6th round pick this year (the other picks are next year). If you want to say the Jets are better with Wilson, sure I get that. But we already knew that, so I guess my question is what else changed?

they got a 2nd round pick for a ham sandwich

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6 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

They did? The Jets were taking Wilson regardless and they were not going to roll out Darnold again. They get a 6th round pick this year (the other picks are next year). If you want to say the Jets are better with Wilson, sure I get that. But we already knew that, so I guess my question is what else changed?

I’m trying to be nice to you. But anything I say you come after me like a ankle biter. 

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3 minutes ago, IHEARTFF said:

they got a 2nd round pick for a ham sandwich

In 2022. What changed for 2021?

Given the Jets recent track record in the 2nd round, Carolina may have actually made them weaker. In the last decade, they've taken Denzel Mims, Christian Hackenberg, Devin Smith, Jace Amaro, Geno Smith, Stephen Hill, and Vladimir Ducasse in the second round. That rivals the Patriots ineptitude of 2nd round draft picks.

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just seems that the people calling the shots for the jets are much smarter than previous people. obviously qb at 1.2 will go a long way to deciding if they're good or not.

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5 minutes ago, Blackbear said:

I’m trying to be nice to you. But anything I say you come after me like a ankle biter. 

I'm not trying to be nasty, just didn't see how the NYJ situation changed much. If you were being sarcastic, so be it.

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1 minute ago, IHEARTFF said:

just seems that the people calling the shots for the jets are much smarter than previous people. obviously qb at 1.2 will go a long way to deciding if they're good or not.

That's the beauty of new regimes and new players. No one knows what will happen.

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1 minute ago, Anarchy99 said:

I'm not trying to be nasty, just didn't see how the NYJ situation changed much. If you were being sarcastic, so be it.

They got better for getting rid of a guy that can’t process. 

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1 minute ago, Blackbear said:

Neither

If NE couldn't get a QB in the first round and Garoppolo was not available, who would you want starting for NE next year of the following options: Newton, Stidham, Dolegala, Bridgewater, Alex Smith, or one of the not Top 5 rookie QBs?

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1 minute ago, Anarchy99 said:

If NE couldn't get a QB in the first round and Garoppolo was not available, who would you want starting for NE next year of the following options: Newton, Stidham, Dolegala, Bridgewater, Alex Smith, or one of the not Top 5 rookie QBs?

I need better question

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On 4/5/2021 at 11:25 PM, Blackbear said:

Lance. 

Not an option in what I presented.

That being said, I think Lance is the most likely to bust of the rookie QBs. Too young, skipped the season, hardly played (17 starts), ran a ton but passed a little (318 passes to 192 rushes), only averaged 18 passes a game the one season he played, only one game in his career with 250+ passing yards, and played against cupcake competition. Averaged 5 yards per attempt and threw a pick in his only game of the season.

I agree with Chris Simms that Lance is lower than the other guys (Simms has him ranked 6th in this QB class). Basically, too hard to tell from a guy with a little over 300 collegiate passes. Trevor Lawrence had over 1,100. On my draft board, I would not have Lance as a first round pick. I'd have him more as a Day 2 developmental project.

Duly noted that you like him and think he can become something. But I don't think that would be in 2021 if NE selected him.

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3 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

Not an option in what I presented.

That being said, I think Lance is the most likely to bust of the rookie QBs. Too young, skipped the season, hardly played (17 starts), ran a ton but passed a little (318 passes to 192 rushes), only averaged 18 passes a game the one season he played, only one game in his career with 250+ passing yards, and played against cupcake competition. Averaged 5 yards per attempt and threw a pick in his only game of the season.

I agree with Chris Simms that Lance is lower than the other guys (Simms has him ranked 6th in this QB class). Basically, too hard to tell from a guy with a little over 300 collegiate passes. Trevor Lawrence had over 1,100. On my draft board, I would have Lance as a first round pick. I'd have him more as a Day 2 developmental project.

Duly noted that you like him and think he can become something. But I don't think that would be in 2021 if NE selected him.

That is fine. Though I have my own opinions. 

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Just now, Blackbear said:

That is fine. Though I have my own opinions. 

I get it. We all have opinions. From what you've seen, you like what you see. I haven't ever seen him play. Looking back at former draft busts, IMO he trends more into that category than the future success category. But that certainly is a data driven approach and not an eyeball watching game tape approach.

The talk I heard on Lance is several years down the road he could potentially develop into something. So if he won't play until 2023, what do the Pats do until then? I know some folks have fallen in love with his big play ability, but again, my concern is the conference he played in isn't exactly filled with pro caliber defenders or defensive coordinators.

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11 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

I get it. We all have opinions. From what you've seen, you like what you see. I haven't ever seen him play. Looking back at former draft busts, IMO he trends more into that category than the future success category. But that certainly is a data driven approach and not an eyeball watching game tape approach.

The talk I heard on Lance is several years down the road he could potentially develop into something. So if he won't play until 2023, what do the Pats do until then? I know some folks have fallen in love with his big play ability, but again, my concern is the conference he played in isn't exactly filled with pro caliber defenders or defensive coordinators.

You have your opinions and I have mine. 🙂

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Cutting Vitale and LaCosse would probably save them real dollars but not as much in terms of cap dollars. Between them, they would only shave $840,000 off the team cap number as of today (the next two highest contracts on the team would count against the cap instead, as only the Top 51 contracts count against the cap). Cutting them would cost $250,000 against the cap, so the actual cap savings would likely be about $590,000 . . . not the $2.5 million it appears on the surface. But every little bit helps and it would free up two roster spots and would help them roster their rookies. Hard to really figure that all out as they could make other roster moves to shake up their Top 51 contracts.

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