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Is Atheism Irrational? NYTimes Opinion Piece


Klimtology

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Well. as I understand it there is nothing and then there is the nothing called 'dark matter'

dark matter is just a phrase for "unexplained gravity"

Gravity is just a theory. I prefer "intelligent falling."

The science is unsettled

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Is it really irrational to say that something doesn't exist when it has never been proven to exist?

Whether we actually "know" it or not seems pretty irrelevant to me.

If I say that I don't believe that the giant spaghetti monster lives on a far far away planet 10 gazillion miles away, am I being irrational?? I mean, after all, we don't "know" for sure one way or the other.

How are God and the giant spaghetti monster similar?

The both have a church and followers.

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For example, in this thread during all the banter back and forth, how many times has the atheist side made the assertion "no god exists"? I'm guessing not many if any.

This discussion frustrates me because neither side generally listens to the other. The atheists go on about proof, which christians generally don't claim, and the christians go on about how illogical it is to state with certainty no god exists, which atheists generally don't claim. It's a bunch of shouting past each other, generally. The last 20 threads have been that way, and the next 20 probably will be too.

It also frustrates me how christians and atheists treat each other as the enemy. We're all on this rock together. Let's try to figure out how to work together without demonizing each other.

I think people take these threads too seriously.

I can challenge you with the actual questions, thoughts, and reactions I have in relative safety here. People can challenge me likewise. When someone posts something asinine, I'm gonna laugh (eminence/goldigger) or call them out (crosseyed and commish). You and I even went back and forth many times in years past.

All the while it never crosses my mind that these people are the "enemy". The problem (usually) is you can't challenge someone's religious beliefs without them choosing to be insulted on the deepest level. Whereas nobody can hurt my feelings talking bad about something I lack belief in. This is why I have to explore these arguments online... I simply cannot have these conversations, cannot react honestly, cannot survive in my real life as an "atheist". This holds true in my career, network of friends, and family.

It isn't a big deal for the most part however... my lack of religious beliefs does not define me in real life, would be last if present at all on a list of things I identify myself with. :thumbup:

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For example, in this thread during all the banter back and forth, how many times has the atheist side made the assertion "no god exists"? I'm guessing not many if any.

This discussion frustrates me because neither side generally listens to the other. The atheists go on about proof, which christians generally don't claim, and the christians go on about how illogical it is to state with certainty no god exists, which atheists generally don't claim. It's a bunch of shouting past each other, generally. The last 20 threads have been that way, and the next 20 probably will be too.

It also frustrates me how christians and atheists treat each other as the enemy. We're all on this rock together. Let's try to figure out how to work together without demonizing each other.

I think people take these threads too seriously.

I can challenge you with the actual questions, thoughts, and reactions I have in relative safety here. People can challenge me likewise. When someone posts something asinine, I'm gonna laugh (eminence/goldigger) or call them out (crosseyed and commish). You and I even went back and forth many times in years past.

All the while it never crosses my mind that these people are the "enemy". The problem (usually) is you can't challenge someone's religious beliefs without them choosing to be insulted on the deepest level. Whereas nobody can hurt my feelings talking bad about something I lack belief in. This is why I have to explore these arguments online... I simply cannot have these conversations, cannot react honestly, cannot survive in my real life as an "atheist". This holds true in my career, network of friends, and family.

It isn't a big deal for the most part however... my lack of religious beliefs does not define me in real life, would be last if present at all on a list of things I identify myself with. :thumbup:

Because you are scared to tell people your beliefs in person you do it obnoxiously online without caring about insulting others?

What is it when someone is scared to do something in person but not online? Isn't that like a keyboard warrior or something?

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For example, in this thread during all the banter back and forth, how many times has the atheist side made the assertion "no god exists"? I'm guessing not many if any.

This discussion frustrates me because neither side generally listens to the other. The atheists go on about proof, which christians generally don't claim, and the christians go on about how illogical it is to state with certainty no god exists, which atheists generally don't claim. It's a bunch of shouting past each other, generally. The last 20 threads have been that way, and the next 20 probably will be too.

It also frustrates me how christians and atheists treat each other as the enemy. We're all on this rock together. Let's try to figure out how to work together without demonizing each other.

I think people take these threads too seriously.

I can challenge you with the actual questions, thoughts, and reactions I have in relative safety here. People can challenge me likewise. When someone posts something asinine, I'm gonna laugh (eminence/goldigger) or call them out (crosseyed and commish). You and I even went back and forth many times in years past.

All the while it never crosses my mind that these people are the "enemy". The problem (usually) is you can't challenge someone's religious beliefs without them choosing to be insulted on the deepest level. Whereas nobody can hurt my feelings talking bad about something I lack belief in. This is why I have to explore these arguments online... I simply cannot have these conversations, cannot react honestly, cannot survive in my real life as an "atheist". This holds true in my career, network of friends, and family.

It isn't a big deal for the most part however... my lack of religious beliefs does not define me in real life, would be last if present at all on a list of things I identify myself with. :thumbup:

Because you are scared to tell people your beliefs in person you do it obnoxiously online without caring about insulting others?

What is it when someone is scared to do something in person but not online? Isn't that like a keyboard warrior or something?

Not scared in the least.. what makes you think that?

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For example, in this thread during all the banter back and forth, how many times has the atheist side made the assertion "no god exists"? I'm guessing not many if any.

This discussion frustrates me because neither side generally listens to the other. The atheists go on about proof, which christians generally don't claim, and the christians go on about how illogical it is to state with certainty no god exists, which atheists generally don't claim. It's a bunch of shouting past each other, generally. The last 20 threads have been that way, and the next 20 probably will be too.

It also frustrates me how christians and atheists treat each other as the enemy. We're all on this rock together. Let's try to figure out how to work together without demonizing each other.

I think people take these threads too seriously.

I can challenge you with the actual questions, thoughts, and reactions I have in relative safety here. People can challenge me likewise. When someone posts something asinine, I'm gonna laugh (eminence/goldigger) or call them out (crosseyed and commish). You and I even went back and forth many times in years past.

All the while it never crosses my mind that these people are the "enemy". The problem (usually) is you can't challenge someone's religious beliefs without them choosing to be insulted on the deepest level. Whereas nobody can hurt my feelings talking bad about something I lack belief in. This is why I have to explore these arguments online... I simply cannot have these conversations, cannot react honestly, cannot survive in my real life as an "atheist". This holds true in my career, network of friends, and family.

It isn't a big deal for the most part however... my lack of religious beliefs does not define me in real life, would be last if present at all on a list of things I identify myself with. :thumbup:

Because you are scared to tell people your beliefs in person you do it obnoxiously online without caring about insulting others?

What is it when someone is scared to do something in person but not online? Isn't that like a keyboard warrior or something?

Not scared in the least.. what makes you think that?

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For example, in this thread during all the banter back and forth, how many times has the atheist side made the assertion "no god exists"? I'm guessing not many if any.

No gods exist, and I still live my life in endless wonder of nature.

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For example, in this thread during all the banter back and forth, how many times has the atheist side made the assertion "no god exists"? I'm guessing not many if any.

This discussion frustrates me because neither side generally listens to the other. The atheists go on about proof, which christians generally don't claim, and the christians go on about how illogical it is to state with certainty no god exists, which atheists generally don't claim. It's a bunch of shouting past each other, generally. The last 20 threads have been that way, and the next 20 probably will be too.

It also frustrates me how christians and atheists treat each other as the enemy. We're all on this rock together. Let's try to figure out how to work together without demonizing each other.

I think people take these threads too seriously.

I can challenge you with the actual questions, thoughts, and reactions I have in relative safety here. People can challenge me likewise. When someone posts something asinine, I'm gonna laugh (eminence/goldigger) or call them out (crosseyed and commish). You and I even went back and forth many times in years past.

All the while it never crosses my mind that these people are the "enemy". The problem (usually) is you can't challenge someone's religious beliefs without them choosing to be insulted on the deepest level. Whereas nobody can hurt my feelings talking bad about something I lack belief in. This is why I have to explore these arguments online... I simply cannot have these conversations, cannot react honestly, cannot survive in my real life as an "atheist". This holds true in my career, network of friends, and family.

It isn't a big deal for the most part however... my lack of religious beliefs does not define me in real life, would be last if present at all on a list of things I identify myself with. :thumbup:

Because you are scared to tell people your beliefs in person you do it obnoxiously online without caring about insulting others?

What is it when someone is scared to do something in person but not online? Isn't that like a keyboard warrior or something?

Not scared in the least.. what makes you think that?

I can't.. not sure what fear has to with it? You are providing the typical example for why I don't bother. Thank you for your help em.

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For example, in this thread during all the banter back and forth, how many times has the atheist side made the assertion "no god exists"? I'm guessing not many if any.

No gods exist, and I still live my life in endless wonder of nature.

No gods exist, and the best thing that ever happened to me "spiritually" was breaking the debilitating shackles of religion that I was burdened with early in life

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For example, in this thread during all the banter back and forth, how many times has the atheist side made the assertion "no god exists"? I'm guessing not many if any.

No gods exist, and I still live my life in endless wonder of nature.

No gods exist, and the best thing that ever happened to me was breaking the debilitating shackles of religion that I was burdened with early in life

Living as if no gods exist makes more sense than living as if there are.

Claiming with certainty they don't exist makes no more sense than claiming with certainty they do.

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For example, in this thread during all the banter back and forth, how many times has the atheist side made the assertion "no god exists"? I'm guessing not many if any.

This discussion frustrates me because neither side generally listens to the other. The atheists go on about proof, which christians generally don't claim, and the christians go on about how illogical it is to state with certainty no god exists, which atheists generally don't claim. It's a bunch of shouting past each other, generally. The last 20 threads have been that way, and the next 20 probably will be too.

It also frustrates me how christians and atheists treat each other as the enemy. We're all on this rock together. Let's try to figure out how to work together without demonizing each other.

I think people take these threads too seriously.

I can challenge you with the actual questions, thoughts, and reactions I have in relative safety here. People can challenge me likewise. When someone posts something asinine, I'm gonna laugh (eminence/goldigger) or call them out (crosseyed and commish). You and I even went back and forth many times in years past.

All the while it never crosses my mind that these people are the "enemy". The problem (usually) is you can't challenge someone's religious beliefs without them choosing to be insulted on the deepest level. Whereas nobody can hurt my feelings talking bad about something I lack belief in. This is why I have to explore these arguments online... I simply cannot have these conversations, cannot react honestly, cannot survive in my real life as an "atheist". This holds true in my career, network of friends, and family.

It isn't a big deal for the most part however... my lack of religious beliefs does not define me in real life, would be last if present at all on a list of things I identify myself with. :thumbup:

Because you are scared to tell people your beliefs in person you do it obnoxiously online without caring about insulting others?

What is it when someone is scared to do something in person but not online? Isn't that like a keyboard warrior or something?

Not scared in the least.. what makes you think that?

I can't.. not sure what fear has to with it? You are providing the typical example for why I don't bother. Thank you for your help em.

Don't let your fear paralyze you

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For example, in this thread during all the banter back and forth, how many times has the atheist side made the assertion "no god exists"? I'm guessing not many if any.

This discussion frustrates me because neither side generally listens to the other. The atheists go on about proof, which christians generally don't claim, and the christians go on about how illogical it is to state with certainty no god exists, which atheists generally don't claim. It's a bunch of shouting past each other, generally. The last 20 threads have been that way, and the next 20 probably will be too.

It also frustrates me how christians and atheists treat each other as the enemy. We're all on this rock together. Let's try to figure out how to work together without demonizing each other.

I think people take these threads too seriously.

I can challenge you with the actual questions, thoughts, and reactions I have in relative safety here. People can challenge me likewise. When someone posts something asinine, I'm gonna laugh (eminence/goldigger) or call them out (crosseyed and commish). You and I even went back and forth many times in years past.

All the while it never crosses my mind that these people are the "enemy". The problem (usually) is you can't challenge someone's religious beliefs without them choosing to be insulted on the deepest level. Whereas nobody can hurt my feelings talking bad about something I lack belief in. This is why I have to explore these arguments online... I simply cannot have these conversations, cannot react honestly, cannot survive in my real life as an "atheist". This holds true in my career, network of friends, and family.

It isn't a big deal for the most part however... my lack of religious beliefs does not define me in real life, would be last if present at all on a list of things I identify myself with. :thumbup:

Because you are scared to tell people your beliefs in person you do it obnoxiously online without caring about insulting others?

What is it when someone is scared to do something in person but not online? Isn't that like a keyboard warrior or something?

Not scared in the least.. what makes you think that?

I can't.. not sure what fear has to with it? You are providing the typical example for why I don't bother. Thank you for your help em.

Don't let your fear paralyze you

What do I get for making eminence respond twice as popsecret? Winner winner chicken dinner?

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For example, in this thread during all the banter back and forth, how many times has the atheist side made the assertion "no god exists"? I'm guessing not many if any.

No gods exist, and I still live my life in endless wonder of nature.

No gods exist, and the best thing that ever happened to me was breaking the debilitating shackles of religion that I was burdened with early in life

Living as if no gods exist makes more sense than living as if there are.

Claiming with certainty they don't exist makes no more sense than claiming with certainty they do.

It actually makes about a billion times more sense, if we're speaking in terms of likelihood

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For example, in this thread during all the banter back and forth, how many times has the atheist side made the assertion "no god exists"? I'm guessing not many if any.

No gods exist, and I still live my life in endless wonder of nature.

No gods exist, and the best thing that ever happened to me was breaking the debilitating shackles of religion that I was burdened with early in life

Living as if no gods exist makes more sense than living as if there are.

Claiming with certainty they don't exist makes no more sense than claiming with certainty they do.

It actually makes about a billion times more sense, if we're speaking in terms of likelihood

That isn't true at all

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For example, in this thread during all the banter back and forth, how many times has the atheist side made the assertion "no god exists"? I'm guessing not many if any.

No gods exist, and I still live my life in endless wonder of nature.

No gods exist, and the best thing that ever happened to me was breaking the debilitating shackles of religion that I was burdened with early in life

Living as if no gods exist makes more sense than living as if there are.

Claiming with certainty they don't exist makes no more sense than claiming with certainty they do.

It actually makes about a billion times more sense, if we're speaking in terms of likelihood

Making a claim with certainty you remove any spectrum of likelihood.

I agree with you on the likelihood argument (utter lack of evidence), I don't understand how you can make the claim certain.

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For example, in this thread during all the banter back and forth, how many times has the atheist side made the assertion "no god exists"? I'm guessing not many if any.

No gods exist, and I still live my life in endless wonder of nature.

No gods exist, and the best thing that ever happened to me was breaking the debilitating shackles of religion that I was burdened with early in life

Living as if no gods exist makes more sense than living as if there are.

Claiming with certainty they don't exist makes no more sense than claiming with certainty they do.

It actually makes about a billion times more sense, if we're speaking in terms of likelihood

Making a claim with certainty you remove any spectrum of likelihood.

I agree with what you on the likelihood argument (utter lack of evidence), I don't understand how you can make the claim certain.

Are we back to the flying spaghetti monster discussion?

Gods are a human construct. There are no gods and no hobbits either.

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For example, in this thread during all the banter back and forth, how many times has the atheist side made the assertion "no god exists"? I'm guessing not many if any.

No gods exist, and I still live my life in endless wonder of nature.

No gods exist, and the best thing that ever happened to me was breaking the debilitating shackles of religion that I was burdened with early in life

Living as if no gods exist makes more sense than living as if there are.

Claiming with certainty they don't exist makes no more sense than claiming with certainty they do.

Not sure why you're making the distinction. I would be hypocritical to be agnostic on this where everything in verifiable science points to the same conclusion as the way I live my life.

I'm not throwing my lot in the "well, let's just pretend it's possible just in case I miss out on the awesomesauce afterlife", because that doesn't make sense to me.

It may make sense to you, but that really isn't my problem.

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“Has anyone provided proof of God’s inexistence? Not even close. Has quantum cosmology explained the emergence of the universe or why it is here? Not even close. Have our sciences explained why our universe seems to be fine-tuned to allow for the existence of life? Not even close. Are physicists and biologists willing to believe in anything so long as it is not religious thought? Close enough. Has rationalism and moral thought provided us with an understanding of what is good, what is right, and what is moral? Not close enough. Has secularism in the terrible 20th century been a force for good? Not even close, to being close. Is there a narrow and oppressive orthodoxy in the sciences? Close enough. Does anything in the sciences or their philosophy justify the claim that religious belief is irrational? Not even in the ball park. Is scientific atheism a frivolous exercise in intellectual contempt? Dead on.”

David Berlinski

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For example, in this thread during all the banter back and forth, how many times has the atheist side made the assertion "no god exists"? I'm guessing not many if any.

No gods exist, and I still live my life in endless wonder of nature.

No gods exist, and the best thing that ever happened to me was breaking the debilitating shackles of religion that I was burdened with early in life

Living as if no gods exist makes more sense than living as if there are.

Claiming with certainty they don't exist makes no more sense than claiming with certainty they do.

It actually makes about a billion times more sense, if we're speaking in terms of likelihood

Making a claim with certainty you remove any spectrum of likelihood.

I agree with what you on the likelihood argument (utter lack of evidence), I don't understand how you can make the claim certain.

Are we back to the flying spaghetti monster discussion?

Gods are as human construct. There are no gods and no hobbits either.

I don't know how I could lay it out any better.. you seem to be arguing with me on the points where we agree.

If you can show how you know with certainty something you can't be certain about, I'm all ears.

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For example, in this thread during all the banter back and forth, how many times has the atheist side made the assertion "no god exists"? I'm guessing not many if any.

No gods exist, and I still live my life in endless wonder of nature.

No gods exist, and the best thing that ever happened to me was breaking the debilitating shackles of religion that I was burdened with early in life

Living as if no gods exist makes more sense than living as if there are.

Claiming with certainty they don't exist makes no more sense than claiming with certainty they do.

Not sure why you're making the distinction. I would be hypocritical to be agnostic on this where everything in verifiable science points to the same conclusion as the way I live my life.

I'm not throwing my lot in the "well, let's just pretend it's possible just in case I miss out on the awesomesauce afterlife", because that doesn't make sense to me.

It may make sense to you, but that really isn't my problem.

I don't pretend it is possible. I have never been given a reason to do so. I live my life as if there are no gods.

I also have no evidence to say 100% there are no gods.

eta - I am as sure as anyone can be...

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You have to get your heads around the fact that god is man made. Study biblical history. It has been beaten, (literally), into our brains for centuries.

Man did not make God

Who made the Greek and Roman gods? The Nordic gods? The Hindu gods?

PS, you're not allowed to skip over this question. Answer it. TIA

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“Has anyone provided proof of God’s inexistence? Not even close. Has quantum cosmology explained the emergence of the universe or why it is here? Not even close. Have our sciences explained why our universe seems to be fine-tuned to allow for the existence of life? Not even close. Are physicists and biologists willing to believe in anything so long as it is not religious thought? Close enough. Has rationalism and moral thought provided us with an understanding of what is good, what is right, and what is moral? Not close enough. Has secularism in the terrible 20th century been a force for good? Not even close, to being close. Is there a narrow and oppressive orthodoxy in the sciences? Close enough. Does anything in the sciences or their philosophy justify the claim that religious belief is irrational? Not even in the ball park. Is scientific atheism a frivolous exercise in intellectual contempt? Dead on.”

David Berlinski

:lmao:

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For example, in this thread during all the banter back and forth, how many times has the atheist side made the assertion "no god exists"? I'm guessing not many if any.

No gods exist, and I still live my life in endless wonder of nature.

No gods exist, and the best thing that ever happened to me was breaking the debilitating shackles of religion that I was burdened with early in life

Living as if no gods exist makes more sense than living as if there are.

Claiming with certainty they don't exist makes no more sense than claiming with certainty they do.

It actually makes about a billion times more sense, if we're speaking in terms of likelihood

Making a claim with certainty you remove any spectrum of likelihood.

I agree with what you on the likelihood argument (utter lack of evidence), I don't understand how you can make the claim certain.

Are we back to the flying spaghetti monster discussion?

Gods are as human construct. There are no gods and no hobbits either.

I don't know how I could lay it out any better.. you seem to be arguing with me on the points where we agree.

If you can show how you know with certainty something you can't be certain about, I'm all ears.

Do you just walk around in your life saying "maybe" about everything? I'm certain that fiction isn't real, by its very definition.

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“Has anyone provided proof of God’s inexistence? Not even close. Has quantum cosmology explained the emergence of the universe or why it is here? Not even close. Have our sciences explained why our universe seems to be fine-tuned to allow for the existence of life? Not even close. Are physicists and biologists willing to believe in anything so long as it is not religious thought? Close enough. Has rationalism and moral thought provided us with an understanding of what is good, what is right, and what is moral? Not close enough. Has secularism in the terrible 20th century been a force for good? Not even close, to being close. Is there a narrow and oppressive orthodoxy in the sciences? Close enough. Does anything in the sciences or their philosophy justify the claim that religious belief is irrational? Not even in the ball park. Is scientific atheism a frivolous exercise in intellectual contempt? Dead on.”

David Berlinski

Anything that can't currently be explained necessitates a god? This is your stance?

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For example, in this thread during all the banter back and forth, how many times has the atheist side made the assertion "no god exists"? I'm guessing not many if any.

No gods exist, and I still live my life in endless wonder of nature.

No gods exist, and the best thing that ever happened to me was breaking the debilitating shackles of religion that I was burdened with early in life

Living as if no gods exist makes more sense than living as if there are.

Claiming with certainty they don't exist makes no more sense than claiming with certainty they do.

It actually makes about a billion times more sense, if we're speaking in terms of likelihood

Making a claim with certainty you remove any spectrum of likelihood.

I agree with what you on the likelihood argument (utter lack of evidence), I don't understand how you can make the claim certain.

Are we back to the flying spaghetti monster discussion?

Gods are as human construct. There are no gods and no hobbits either.

I don't know how I could lay it out any better.. you seem to be arguing with me on the points where we agree.

If you can show how you know with certainty something you can't be certain about, I'm all ears.

Do you just walk around in your life saying "maybe" about everything? I'm certain that fiction isn't real, by its very definition.

No, see above. I am as sure there are no gods as the lack of evidence in this life allows me to be.

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Once upon a time, people didn't know why the sun moved across the sky, vanished every night, and returned each morning. So, since science couldn't explain what was happening, it was god. Specifically, it was Helios, the sun god, chasing his lover across the sky each day, desperate to reach her.

Just because you can't answer a question about something today doesn't mean that god is the answer to said question.

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For example, in this thread during all the banter back and forth, how many times has the atheist side made the assertion "no god exists"? I'm guessing not many if any.

No gods exist, and I still live my life in endless wonder of nature.

No gods exist, and the best thing that ever happened to me was breaking the debilitating shackles of religion that I was burdened with early in life

Living as if no gods exist makes more sense than living as if there are.

Claiming with certainty they don't exist makes no more sense than claiming with certainty they do.

It actually makes about a billion times more sense, if we're speaking in terms of likelihood

Making a claim with certainty you remove any spectrum of likelihood.

I agree with what you on the likelihood argument (utter lack of evidence), I don't understand how you can make the claim certain.

Are we back to the flying spaghetti monster discussion?

Gods are as human construct. There are no gods and no hobbits either.

I don't know how I could lay it out any better.. you seem to be arguing with me on the points where we agree.

If you can show how you know with certainty something you can't be certain about, I'm all ears.

Do you just walk around in your life saying "maybe" about everything? I'm certain that fiction isn't real, by its very definition.

No, see above. I am as sure there are no gods as the lack of evidence in this life allows me to be.

How sure are you about dragons?

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Once upon a time, people didn't know why the sun moved across the sky, vanished every night, and returned each morning. So, since science couldn't explain what was happening, it was god. Specifically, it was Helios, the sun god, chasing his lover across the sky each day, desperate to reach her.

Just because you can't answer a question about something today doesn't mean that god is the answer to said question.

:lmao: nice fallacy

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How sure are you about dragons?

Funny you bring that up. I have often used the evidence supporting an invisible dragon in my garage as analogous to that supporting gods.

For the umpteenth time, I agree with your assumption that there are no gods, no dragons, no hobbits. I agree your assumption is a billion X more likely than the alternative.

But that assumption doesn't make it certain. You would have to prove there are no gods for that, which of course you can't.

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Once upon a time, people didn't know why the sun moved across the sky, vanished every night, and returned each morning. So, since science couldn't explain what was happening, it was god. Specifically, it was Helios, the sun god, chasing his lover across the sky each day, desperate to reach her.

Just because you can't answer a question about something today doesn't mean that god is the answer to said question.

:lmao: nice fallacy

I am crying from laughter here.... god dammit em. :lmao::cry:

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How sure are you about dragons?

Funny you bring that up. I have often used the evidence supporting an invisible dragon in my garage as analogous to that supporting gods.

For the umpteenth time, I agree with your assumption that there are no gods, no dragons, no hobbits. I agree your assumption is a billion X more likely than the alternative.

But that assumption doesn't make it certain. You would have to prove there are no gods for that, which of course you can't.

So you aren't certain about the dragons

Cool.. moving on

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Jayrok, did you ever delve into non fundamentalist theologians? Barth in particular seems to be a theologian that may appeal to you.

Yes, I am familiar with Barth, though I admit I haven't read his enormous body of work. In him, I see a guy who felt compelled to rethink the beliefs he learned from his mentors because the way things were developing in Europe around the first world war. I see him as opposed to someone like Calvin, for sure. But I'm not sure I buy what he preached either.

The thing with theology, the NT supports different flavors of theological thought. Just depends on where you read.

Predestination? check.

Faith apart from works? check.

Faith along with proper works? check.

Jesus as God incarnate? check.

Jesus as a man subordinate to God? check.

Jesus pre-existent and eternally divine? check.

Jesus exalted to Christ at baptism? check.

Jesus exalted to Christ at his resurrection? check.

Christianity starting with Jesus as God who came to earth to sacrifice himself? check.

Christianity starting with a mythological Christ? check.

And so forth. The beginning of John 18:38 is where I find myself.

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Once upon a time, people didn't know why the sun moved across the sky, vanished every night, and returned each morning. So, since science couldn't explain what was happening, it was god. Specifically, it was Helios, the sun god, chasing his lover across the sky each day, desperate to reach her.

Just because you can't answer a question about something today doesn't mean that god is the answer to said question.

:lmao: nice fallacy

I am crying from laughter here.... god dammit em. :lmao::cry:

Hey man, I just hope you have the courage one day to speak out in person the way you do online. Until then I find it hard to respect what you say since you don't believe in it enough to get out of the shadows.

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For example, in this thread during all the banter back and forth, how many times has the atheist side made the assertion "no god exists"? I'm guessing not many if any.

This discussion frustrates me because neither side generally listens to the other. The atheists go on about proof, which christians generally don't claim, and the christians go on about how illogical it is to state with certainty no god exists, which atheists generally don't claim. It's a bunch of shouting past each other, generally. The last 20 threads have been that way, and the next 20 probably will be too.

It also frustrates me how christians and atheists treat each other as the enemy. We're all on this rock together. Let's try to figure out how to work together without demonizing each other.

It is usually the atheist looking down on us christians, not the other way around. Atheists think we are delusional and treat us as if we deserve to be mocked and locked away.
Oh man. I've lost Christian friends when they found out I was an atheist. When my wife's religious friends come over, she makes me hide my books so they don't see them because she's afraid of what they might say. I keep my atheism a secret from the general public but I know it could hurt my business if my customers know I'm an atheist. The flip side of those examples are completely untrue. I don't give a hoot what a friend or customer believes.

Before throwing stones about who looks down upon whom, look in the mirror.

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Once upon a time, people didn't know why the sun moved across the sky, vanished every night, and returned each morning. So, since science couldn't explain what was happening, it was god. Specifically, it was Helios, the sun god, chasing his lover across the sky each day, desperate to reach her.

Just because you can't answer a question about something today doesn't mean that god is the answer to said question.

:lmao: nice fallacy

I am crying from laughter here.... god dammit em. :lmao::cry:

Hey man, I just hope you have the courage one day to speak out in person the way you do online. Until then I find it hard to respect what you say since you don't believe in it enough to get out of the shadows.

I have you on the hook and would usually tow you around the pond more before releasing, but life calls.

You would be the guy I would choose not to bother with. You are limited to the point where the above is the extent of what you bring to the conversation. Which is why I can only laugh here.

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The universe is 13.8B years old. Earth is 4.5B years old. The human species is ~200,000 years old. The Bible, the main source document of the Christian faith, was written a few thousand years ago.

Hitchens on what theists must believe. paraphrasing..but that God had to have stood by indifferently for the vast majority of human existence and witnessed all of the suffering and chaos before stepping in.

One other note, this from Sam Harris.

Harris argues that 9 million children die under the age of 5 annually, many of these children have parents who pray that their children will be spared and the Prayers are not answered. Harris uses this to illustrate the Problem of evil, arguing that a god who can't prevent these deaths is impotent while a god who doesn't want to is evil.

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Jayrok, did you ever delve into non fundamentalist theologians? Barth in particular seems to be a theologian that may appeal to you.

Yes, I am familiar with Barth, though I admit I haven't read his enormous body of work. In him, I see a guy who felt compelled to rethink the beliefs he learned from his mentors because the way things were developing in Europe around the first world war. I see him as opposed to someone like Calvin, for sure. But I'm not sure I buy what he preached either.

The thing with theology, the NT supports different flavors of theological thought. Just depends on where you read.

Predestination? check.

Faith apart from works? check.

Faith along with proper works? check.

Jesus as God incarnate? check.

Jesus as a man subordinate to God? check.

Jesus pre-existent and eternally divine? check.

Jesus exalted to Christ at baptism? check.

Jesus exalted to Christ at his resurrection? check.

Christianity starting with Jesus as God who came to earth to sacrifice himself? check.

Christianity starting with a mythological Christ? check.

And so forth. The beginning of John 18:38 is where I find myself.

Informative post, thank you.

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Once upon a time, people didn't know why the sun moved across the sky, vanished every night, and returned each morning. So, since science couldn't explain what was happening, it was god. Specifically, it was Helios, the sun god, chasing his lover across the sky each day, desperate to reach her.

Just because you can't answer a question about something today doesn't mean that god is the answer to said question.

:lmao: nice fallacy

I am crying from laughter here.... god dammit em. :lmao::cry:

Hey man, I just hope you have the courage one day to speak out in person the way you do online. Until then I find it hard to respect what you say since you don't believe in it enough to get out of the shadows.

I have you on the hook and would usually tow you around the pond more before releasing, but life calls.

You would be the guy I would choose not to bother with. You are limited to the point where the above is the extent of what you bring to the conversation. Which is why I can only laugh here.

Ahhh, you are a troll, it finally makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up.

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Do you just walk around in your life saying "maybe" about everything? I'm certain that fiction isn't real, by its very definition.

On a scale of 1 to 100 let's say you are 100% sure the Abrahamic God does not exist. Would you still rank the existence of a God (defined as a conscious unbound by nature and science) as the origin of the universe at 100?

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Funny you bring that up. I have often used the evidence supporting an invisible dragon in my garage as analogous to that supporting gods.

For the umpteenth time, I agree with your assumption that there are no gods, no dragons, no hobbits. I agree your assumption is a billion X more likely than the alternative.

But that assumption doesn't make it certain. You would have to prove there are no gods for that, which of course you can't.

Can you give me an example of something that you can say with certainty?

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Funny you bring that up. I have often used the evidence supporting an invisible dragon in my garage as analogous to that supporting gods.

For the umpteenth time, I agree with your assumption that there are no gods, no dragons, no hobbits. I agree your assumption is a billion X more likely than the alternative.

But that assumption doesn't make it certain. You would have to prove there are no gods for that, which of course you can't.

Can you give me an example of something that you can say with certainty?

I am certain I just made this post.

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Do you just walk around in your life saying "maybe" about everything? I'm certain that fiction isn't real, by its very definition.

On a scale of 1 to 100 let's say you are 100% sure the Abrahamic God does not exist. Would you still rank the existence of a God (defined as a conscious unbound by nature and science) as the origin of the universe at 100?

Is that what the definition of a "god" is? I don't agree. I will concede that I'm not 100% sure that there's no "conscious unbound by nature and science" involved in the origin of the universe, though I'm not really sure what that means or what the implications would be. I am only 100% sure that any "god" as put forth by human religion does not exist. They are all easily, and thoroughly debunked.

The deeper question is the nature of life, and how that came about. I don't believe in any divine creator - again, it's a completely human construct - but won't say with any level of certainty that LIFE is some random occurrence. Why and more importantly HOW does organic life start to happen once the proper conditions allow it? That's the fascinating thing to me. But the concept of a creator goes out the window when you start talking about who created the creator, and it's not an idea that I even entertain.

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Once upon a time, people didn't know why the sun moved across the sky, vanished every night, and returned each morning. So, since science couldn't explain what was happening, it was god. Specifically, it was Helios, the sun god, chasing his lover across the sky each day, desperate to reach her.

Just because you can't answer a question about something today doesn't mean that god is the answer to said question.

:lmao: nice fallacy

I am crying from laughter here.... god dammit em. :lmao::cry:

Hey man, I just hope you have the courage one day to speak out in person the way you do online. Until then I find it hard to respect what you say since you don't believe in it enough to get out of the shadows.

I have you on the hook and would usually tow you around the pond more before releasing, but life calls.

You would be the guy I would choose not to bother with. You are limited to the point where the above is the extent of what you bring to the conversation. Which is why I can only laugh here.

Ahhh, you are a troll, it finally makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up.

My irony meter just exploded. I'm worried it may have injured the invisible pink unicorn in my ceiling tile.

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Funny you bring that up. I have often used the evidence supporting an invisible dragon in my garage as analogous to that supporting gods.

For the umpteenth time, I agree with your assumption that there are no gods, no dragons, no hobbits. I agree your assumption is a billion X more likely than the alternative.

But that assumption doesn't make it certain. You would have to prove there are no gods for that, which of course you can't.

Can you give me an example of something that you can say with certainty?

I exist.

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