Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.
The 2014 NFL Draft All-Overrated Team: Vanderbilt WR Jordan Matthews (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Sigmund Bloom
- Start date
Faust
MVP
Eagles' Matthews downplays notion of No. 1 receiver:
http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/eagles/20150403_Eagles__Matthews_wants_to_be_the_No__1_receiver.html
http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/eagles/20150403_Eagles__Matthews_wants_to_be_the_No__1_receiver.html
unckeyherb
Footballguy
Who are the 5-7 top WR's (Legit WR1) in the league?
Calvin-team made playoffs
Dez-team made playoffs
Julio-finished under .500
AJ Green-team made playoffs
Nelson-Team made playoffs
Brown-Team made playoffs
D Thomas-team made playoffs
What was the last Super Bowl winner to have a legitimate WR1? Giants in 2011?
2014-Pats-no
2013-Seattle-Golden Tate-no
2012-Ravens-Bolden-not a Legit 1 by this time.
2011-Giants-Victor Cruz-meh, although that year he certainly performed like a legit WR1
2010-Packers-Greg Jennings?
2009-Saints-Colston?
2008-Steelers-Hines?
2007-Giants-Plaxico
2006-Indy-Harrison/Wayne
Calvin-team made playoffs
Dez-team made playoffs
Julio-finished under .500
AJ Green-team made playoffs
Nelson-Team made playoffs
Brown-Team made playoffs
D Thomas-team made playoffs
What was the last Super Bowl winner to have a legitimate WR1? Giants in 2011?
2014-Pats-no
2013-Seattle-Golden Tate-no
2012-Ravens-Bolden-not a Legit 1 by this time.
2011-Giants-Victor Cruz-meh, although that year he certainly performed like a legit WR1
2010-Packers-Greg Jennings?
2009-Saints-Colston?
2008-Steelers-Hines?
2007-Giants-Plaxico
2006-Indy-Harrison/Wayne
Jeremy's Spoken
Footballguy
Faust
MVP
werdnoynek
Footballguy
Agholor will make this guy look like a chump. Still passing, meh.
dhockster
Footballguy
Maclin had 1,300 yards and 10 TD's and Matthews still had a pretty good rookie year. Just sayin'
CentralPA
Footballguy
jurb26
Footballguy
The Ertz hype is moving strong as well. Also, you have all those RBs. Too many mouths to feed here IMO. Someone is going to disappoint. Maybe it's Mathews, maybe it's not.
Last edited by a moderator:
ShaHBucks
Footballguy
Norcalhoya
Footballguy
CentralPA
Footballguy
IMHO it will be Ertz that is the odd man out. He shows flashes of potential but usually doesn't add up. Maybe that will change with Bradford.
One key thing to remember for if/when Bradford gets hurt. Sanchez targeted Matthews more than any wideout last year I believe.
Rhythmdoctor
Footballguy
Are people really expecting Agholor to just step right in and replace Maclin? That ain't happening, folks. If anyone fails to meet expectations, it will be the rook.
Xue
Footballguy
Also, people continue to ignore that Maclin was only the leading WR while Foles was playing.
ShaHBucks
Footballguy
I'd actually prefer Sanchez here. He's one of the most targeted WRs in the game with Sanchez.
VaTerp
Footballguy
I think Matthews very well could be a very good FF WR this year. Which will be very interesting as those high on him will claim Bloom and those like me who agreed with him were wrong.
The thing is Kelly seems intent on using him exclusively in the slot. And in his system it creates extremely favorable matchups and opportunities for Matthews to put up very good numbers.
So Matthews could put up really good numbers and I'd still agree with Bloom that he does not have the game or project as a true NFL #1. And it looks like Kelly doesnt view him that way either. He's using him as a big slot WR and getting him open on intermediate drag routes, up the seam, etc.
The thing is Kelly seems intent on using him exclusively in the slot. And in his system it creates extremely favorable matchups and opportunities for Matthews to put up very good numbers.
So Matthews could put up really good numbers and I'd still agree with Bloom that he does not have the game or project as a true NFL #1. And it looks like Kelly doesnt view him that way either. He's using him as a big slot WR and getting him open on intermediate drag routes, up the seam, etc.
dhockster
Footballguy
I think this is where some analysts miss the boat. Being a true NFL #1 WR is not the same thing as being a FF #1 WR. I could care less if he is the main threat on his team that the other team has to double team or scheme to stop. I just care how many FF points he puts up. That is why I always made sure to have one of the WR's from a run and shoot offense back in the 90's. Curtis Duncan may not have scared many DB's but he sure was very productive in FF.
Matthews in the slot in a Chip Kelly offense should put up really good Fantasy numbers. That's all most people on this board care about.
Last edited by a moderator:
RenegadeRoy
Footballguy
VaTerp
Footballguy
True, most here care only about FF impact. I'm just pointing out that Bloom's analysis that Matthews did not project as a NFL #1 and his production would be highly dependent on situation will not necessarily be wrong even if Matthews produces well from a FF, and even, NFL standpoint.
Kelly's use of him in the slot appears to be an ideal situation for his skill set.
TartanLion
Footballguy
Definitely got my eye on him. He's been making into a lot of my mock teams as I think he is pretty good value this year. Re-draft if you go RB in the 1st and then WR heavy rounds 2-4/5 he makes a great third WR. One of Dez/Julio/Jordy/Calvin , one of Evans/Hopkins/Sanders/Hilton dependant on who falls, then one of Cooks/Matthews somewhere in rounds 4-6 makes for a pretty deadly trio hopefully. Putting a bet on a Chip Kelly offence providing good numbers for a sophomore WR that did well last year and has seen other senior WRs leave since, seems like a logically sound tactic to me.
dhockster
Footballguy
Which is why I like Chip Kelly. He tends to put people in situations which fit well with their skill set.
Rhythmdoctor
Footballguy
It's a pretty convenient argument for a FF analyst to differentiate between a FF WR1 and an NFL WR1. Everyone on this board only cares about FF production and that's the bottom line. When u talk WR/RB 1/2/3.... It's within the realm of FF. If someone has to pull out the "well, in NFL terms...." that just means they lost the argument.
All that being said, we haven't seen enough from Mathews to know who is right yet.
All that being said, we haven't seen enough from Mathews to know who is right yet.
VaTerp
Footballguy
I'm assuming my post is what you mean by "the team calling him overrated is already making excuses." Which is fine. They're not excuses, its reality and is entirely consistent with what many on this "team" have said from the beginning. He is situation dependent.
If and when he plays on the outside, I think Bloom and "some of his readers that agree with him" will be proven right.
renesauz
IBL Representative
This discussion is making no sense at all at this point. Are folks still trying to say that, even in a vacuum, Mathews doesn't have the talent to be the best WR on a team? That he is absolutely NOT one of the best 32 WRs in the NFL.
I understood some people believing that a year ago...but that's a silly stance now.
It's much easier to argue that he isn't a fantasy #1 than he isn't capable of being an NFL #1. IN the end, he's not a fantasy #1....yet, but the potential is there. He's absolutely among the best 30-40 or so WRs in the NFL though, so if he isn't an NFL #1 yet, he's close.
Dumb argument IMO.
I understood some people believing that a year ago...but that's a silly stance now.
It's much easier to argue that he isn't a fantasy #1 than he isn't capable of being an NFL #1. IN the end, he's not a fantasy #1....yet, but the potential is there. He's absolutely among the best 30-40 or so WRs in the NFL though, so if he isn't an NFL #1 yet, he's close.
Dumb argument IMO.
VaTerp
Footballguy
Bloom's article was written in February and was about the NFL draft. So its not a matter of convenience for an argument's sake. It's about understanding what the argument was in the first place, which was how his college tape projected to the NFL and where Bloom projected taking him in the NFL draft. This is a FF site but some of us are interested in evaluating players from a broader perspective. The talk of Matthews being a true #1 was always from an NFL perspective.Rhythmdoctor said:
To me what is dumb is that assuming that because someone is the best WR on a given team at a given moment they are a true #1. James Thrash and Brian Hartline were the best WR on a team at some point. And its also not just a matter of being one of the 32 best WRs in the NFL, which I don't think Matthews is at this point anyway. Its about doing demonstrating the skill set and ability to do the things a #1 WR typically has to do such as creating separation from man coverage, running a full route tree and consistently winning contested balls.renesauz said:
Matthews had a very good rookie season and by all accounts is having a strong off season. And he could very well but up top 15-20 FF numbers or better this year. But plenty of guys have had top 15 or even top 10 FF seasons without being NFL #1s. As I said before he's in a situation where his usage his conducive to him putting up good numbers. So FF wise great for Matthews lovers right now but it stil doesnt make those of us agreeing with Bloom wrong. Because page 1 of this thread talks about how he is situation dependent based on the offense he is in or QB he plays with. Eric Decker, one of the comps used for Matthews had back to back top 10 FF seasons in Denver. Didn't make him a #1 WR talent. Some will say that doesnt matter as long as he produces in FF, which is fine. But I like to differentiate between talent and situation for when the latter changes.
Its not about "losing an argument." Like everyone else, I hit and miss on players every year in both the short and long term. All I was pointing out is that short term success by Matthews in an offense where he is used exclusively in the slot and on certain routes and looks does not make the original premise of the thread wrong. And a lot of people in this thread said Matthews was the best WR in this class. Better than Watkins, Evans, and Beckam. Do those people still believe they're right?
Last edited by a moderator:
renesauz
IBL Representative
See...here your defining "NFL #1" differently. My definition in the context of my post was the top 32 WRs in the league (not necessarily on a given team. We all realize that some teams lack a #1, while some teams may have more than 1 guy who would fit the criteria.) And most of them can do everything you mention. Coincidentally, I think Mathews can as well.
Theres a bit of semantics going on here.
Last edited by a moderator:
John Paul
Footballguy
http://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/jordan-matthews/
That's a good metrics snapshot. Combine that info with his last two years of college and his production as a rookie receiver. Now account for him moving into the leading receiver for the Eagles. I can see him easily putting up the numbers Maclin had last year.
That's a good metrics snapshot. Combine that info with his last two years of college and his production as a rookie receiver. Now account for him moving into the leading receiver for the Eagles. I can see him easily putting up the numbers Maclin had last year.
VaTerp
Footballguy
I'm not defining NFL #1 differently. What you bolded is almost verbatim from Bloom's article, which is what this entire thread is based on.
Its not semantics at all. Its about understanding what the argument has been about the whole time. That Matthews did not project as a true NFL #1 who would be the primary of a passing attack and could have success regardless of situation. He has shown a great deal of promise playing the slot in Kelly's scheme and that's great for his FF prospects but does not make the original premise wrong.
Hashtag rolleyes- good one! Yes, b/c every WR prospect with size and speed has enjoyed great success in the NFL. Again, if people actually read the article that this entire thread is based on you see that Bloom's second sentence states that despite his measurables and stats playing against SEC competition he didnt think Matthews projected as a NFL #1.
If and when Matthews moves outside and has success then I'll happily admit to being wrong on this one. Won't be the first time. It is interesting to me though that, at his size, Kelly is playing him exclusively in the slot. By all accounts its working very well but I was just pointing out to the Milkman's of the world, who thought Matthews was a better prospect than Watkins, Beckam, Evans, that his success, at this point is coming exclusively in the slot in a unique offense. Which, again, is consistent with the original point that his production would be situation dependent.
The only thing the kid can do is play where his coach puts him and he's doing that well. If I'm a Eagle fan or a Matthews owner in FF I'm pleased. But that doesnt mean that any of us who werent/arent in complete hashtag love him were wrong.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
Chip Kelly knows his strengths and weaknesses. From day 1, Kelly said JM would play in the slot. As an Eagles fan, I don't care if he ever moves to the outside. Is it written anywhere that your best WR can't play the slot? There's little doubt going into this season, the Eagles 2 best WRs are going to be Matthews and Agholor.
From the link in the OP:
Matthews can contribute in the NFL, he belongs, but he won’t be a number one in any scenario, and he wouldn’t be one of the best two receivers on a lot of teams. With so many receivers that offer a higher ceiling in the 2014 NFL Draft, I would have trouble taking him in the top 100 picks.
Its early, but all indications point to him being one of the Eagles' top 2 WRs for the foreseeable future. How many teams have 2 better WRs right now?
Now back to splitting hairs and trying to win the internet.
From the link in the OP:
Matthews can contribute in the NFL, he belongs, but he won’t be a number one in any scenario, and he wouldn’t be one of the best two receivers on a lot of teams. With so many receivers that offer a higher ceiling in the 2014 NFL Draft, I would have trouble taking him in the top 100 picks.
Its early, but all indications point to him being one of the Eagles' top 2 WRs for the foreseeable future. How many teams have 2 better WRs right now?
Now back to splitting hairs and trying to win the internet.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Milkman
Footballguy
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/9420/jordan-matthews
1200+ and 10+ TD'S could happen. I have no idea what the haters will say then but it should be good......
1200+ and 10+ TD'S could happen. I have no idea what the haters will say then but it should be good......
Similar threads
- Poll
