El Floppo
Footballguy
I figured you all would. But somebody gave it a thinking man emoji, so...Yeah, I got that.
I figured you all would. But somebody gave it a thinking man emoji, so...Yeah, I got that.
What if they started putting in provisions from New Mexico statutes that they told you were mandatory? Would you at least research them or consult with someone before trying to make changes?I have a national practice and I don’t think I’d suddenly put down the contract and walk away if someone works in a wonky choice of law = New Mexico provision.
Prolly yeah.What if they started putting in provisions from New Mexico statutes that they told you were mandatory? Would you at least research them or consult with someone before trying to make changes?
I get that you have an issue with this lawyer, and she is not being very smart about representing her company, but I think her practice of negotiating contracts for her company in multiple states is common practice in my experience. In most cases, I would think she should research the local law and deal with you in good faith. That said, in some cases if you're dealing with a huge company, their lawyers just don't give a ####. I recall Exxon and IBM in particular - they couldn't care less what my legal arguments were - it was going to be their way or no deal regardless, even if the contract made no sense or was partially unenforceable. In many cases, you can't even get a lawyer on the phone, and are stuck negotiating with a "contract specialist" or a "procurement consultant." They have their rules, and that's that.Dunno. I assume it depends on the laws of Illinois, New York and Delaware.
I represented a California investor in a case involving a Hawaii property and a contractor incorporated in Nevada. Hawaii rules required that I be admitted pro hac vice to mediate the case. In a similar situation in California, an out-of-state attorney was held to have been practicing unlawfully when he represented his client at mediation in California.
What we have is a contract in this state, the work is in this state, the property is in this state, the property owner is in this state, the venue is in this state, the choice of law is this state's laws, and an attorney from another state admits that she's negotiating changes to the contract without knowledge of this state's laws and without consulting an attorney licensed here.
Under this state's case law interpreting this state's statutes, her changes that are being blindly made would invalidate negotiated terms of the contract since they violate our statutes without a proper acknowledgement and waiver. She has refused to agree to the acknowledgement and waiver because she doesn't understand them, since they're specific to our statutes. There is no "standard" non state-specific language that can replace them under our case law.
Negotiating contract terms is defined in our civil rules as practicing law. Our statute defines a "Nonlawyer" as a person to whom this state's supreme court has granted a limited authorization to practice law but who practices law outside that authorization, and a person who is not an active member in good standing of the state bar, including persons who are disbarred or suspended from membership.
This attorney has not been approved, on a limited basis or otherwise, to practice law in this state by our supreme court. That is defined as unlawful practice by a Nonlawyer, a gross misdemeanor. Seems like a problem for them.
I'd hate you, but I've already provided you chapter and verse since I know that your're ignorant of what's going on based on your first set of stupid changes and comments. Plus the statute itself is cited in the contract language...as required by the case law.Better yet I’d challenge them for the case law supporting their view that it’s required. Always play dumb and make the other side do the work for you!
This. And imagine the logjam if every time another state law issue came up, you had to pull in another outside lawyer. You’d need a team of 50 on the ready at any moment to negotiate a contract. We’re a stupid profession, but that can’t be right.I get that you have an issue with this lawyer, and she is not being very smart about representing her company, but I think her practice of negotiating contracts for her company in multiple states is common practice in my experience. In most cases, I would think she should research the local law and deal with you in good faith. That said, in some cases if you're dealing with a huge company, their lawyers just don't give a ####. I recall Exxon and IBM in particular - they couldn't care less what my legal arguments were - it was going to be their way or no deal regardless, even if the contract made no sense or was partially unenforceable. In many cases, you can't even get a lawyer on the phone, and are stuck negotiating with a "contract specialist" or a "procurement consultant." They have their rules, and that's that.
I may report her just to see what happens.I get that you have an issue with this lawyer, and she is not being very smart about representing her company, but I think her practice of negotiating contracts for her company in multiple states is common practice in my experience. In most cases, I would think she should research the local law and deal with you in good faith. That said, in some cases if you're dealing with a huge company, their lawyers just don't give a ####. I recall Exxon and IBM in particular - they couldn't care less what my legal arguments were - it was going to be their way or no deal regardless, even if the contract made no sense or was partially unenforceable. In many cases, you can't even get a lawyer on the phone, and are stuck negotiating with a "contract specialist" or a "procurement consultant." They have their rules, and that's that.
Now I have a logjam because I have a lawyer who doesn't know our law trying to demand #### nobody can agree to.This. And imagine the logjam if every time another state law issue came up, you had to pull in another outside lawyer. You’d need a team of 50 on the ready at any moment to negotiate a contract. We’re a stupid profession, but that can’t be right.
Do we come into the architecture thread and crap all over your arguments about scarves?Some real law and order #### up in here...
Oh...I was genuinely totally into the law and order ####- been fun to read.Do we come into the architecture thread and crap all over your arguments about scarves?
You sir need a better lawyer. Or the other side does. Or they don’t, if it’s the other side’s lawyer, because they’re driving you batty.Now I have a logjam because I have a lawyer who doesn't know our law trying to demand #### nobody can agree to.
You’re always welcome. Come back.Oh...I was genuinely totally into the law and order ####- been fun to read.
But sorry if I'm gumming up the works in here... I'll go back to my one man scarfitecture thread and mope.
Hint: the state you live in now? Our laws are whack.@CletiusMaximus and others are so right about all this, and these other posts are making my head hurt. In my 20 years of negotiating contracts while working in-house, it’s rare I’ve brought in local counsel. Mostly in CA because all their laws are whack. Most recent I can think of was about five years ago when acquiring a company based in Florida, and they wanted some protection from the FL sunshine laws in order to avoid sharing info with our Board and shareholders. Plot twist: our local counsel found they were wrong. Only other recent-ish one was understanding LA non-compete law (hi Henry! Those are whack, too!).
The indemnity provisions. We have two parallel anti-indemnity statutes dealing with contractors and worker’s compensation laws. If you want to agree to your own mutual indemnity provisions you can, but you have to expressly waive the statuteS and separately acknowledge the agreement. East coast bozo wants a custom indemnity agreement but refuses to agree to the waiver, which invalidates the negotiated terms. She admitted she has no clue what these statutes say, no knowledge of the 30 years of case law interpreting them, but wants to get her way anyway.What type of terms here are inconsistent with state law?
That would require another person in my thread. As it is, I can only argue with the voice in my head.“Arguments about scarves”
Doesn't matter for the overall point.-fish- said:Hint: the state you live in now? Our laws are whack.
Go on...Doesn't matter for the overall point.
I get that you want to punish this person who's being a jerkface. This just isn't the medium to do it.
*See me for other ways to make someone suffer.
(another non-lawyer, here for the grins)Doesn't matter for the overall point.
I get that you want to punish this person who's being a jerkface. This just isn't the medium to do it.
*See me for other ways to make someone suffer.
I'm not gonna marry her, if that's what you're getting at.Doesn't matter for the overall point.
I get that you want to punish this person who's being a jerkface. This just isn't the medium to do it.
*See me for other ways to make someone suffer.
1. It's in the Shark Pool.Kinda wondering what's kept the board's lawyers out of the New Orleans Saints-Archdiocese of New Orleans thread? Seems to be fertile ground forpointless argumentrousing debate.
I'm be very appreciative of any Law School admissions real talk I can get from the vets in this thread
My son is a junior in college and thinking kind of seriously about applying to law school next year and going straight out of college. I would prefer he apply for some fellowships and wait a year or two but he is pretty resistant (primarily because he's already lived abroad twice for 6+ months since graduating from high school - gap year and semester abroad - and his longterm girlfriend is tired of being left behind). We are in agreement that he shouldn't go to law school unless he gets into a Top 6 (or so) school.
Academically, he looks good - goes to Brown and has a 4.0 GPA, double majoring in Comparative Literature and East Asian Studies. He's reasonably fluent in both Arabic and Chinese and won first place in a national collegiate Arabic translation contest. His work history is nothing special, mostly working at camp along with a research fellowship he'll do at his college library this summer. While I know there are no guarantees, my understanding is that law school admission is based in very large part on GPA and LSAT. Would he have a reasonable expectation of getting into a Top 6 school if he got a 175 LSAT? If not, what score would he need?
Next, how hard is the LSAT? He had 800s on the SAT Verbal and the SAT II Literature Subject tests. If he did PowerScore or some other good LSAT prep course this summer, would he have a chance at a 175? Is LSAT prep something he can realistically accomplish on the side while doing his fairly low-impact library fellowship?
Finally, I guess the longer-term questions are how miserable is law school, and could he expect to find a decent job if he does go to a top law school? But I can hold off on those until if/when he does actually get into law school and has to decide whether or not to go. For all I know, maybe he and his girlfriend break up between now and next fall and suddenly post-graduate fellowships are back on the table. But in the meantime I'm looking for advice before lining up Test Prep and registering for the August LSAT.
Sounds like a very bright kid who could expect to do well on the LSAT. Make sure he does a prep course and takes it seriously. It's been a long time since I went through the process, but US News used to post 25th/75th percentile GPAs and LSAT scores for the schools in its rankings, and that would give you a very rough idea of what range of schools he should be targeting. I assume he has some sources for a couple great letters of recommendation, but if not, he should be cultivating those as well.I'm be very appreciative of any Law School admissions real talk I can get from the vets in this thread
My son is a junior in college and thinking kind of seriously about applying to law school next year and going straight out of college. I would prefer he apply for some fellowships and wait a year or two but he is pretty resistant (primarily because he's already lived abroad twice for 6+ months since graduating from high school - gap year and semester abroad - and his longterm girlfriend is tired of being left behind). We are in agreement that he shouldn't go to law school unless he gets into a Top 6 (or so) school.
Academically, he looks good - goes to Brown and has a 4.0 GPA, double majoring in Comparative Literature and East Asian Studies. He's reasonably fluent in both Arabic and Chinese and won first place in a national collegiate Arabic translation contest. His work history is nothing special, mostly working at camp along with a research fellowship he'll do at his college library this summer. While I know there are no guarantees, my understanding is that law school admission is based in very large part on GPA and LSAT. Would he have a reasonable expectation of getting into a Top 6 school if he got a 175 LSAT? If not, what score would he need?
Next, how hard is the LSAT? He had 800s on the SAT Verbal and the SAT II Literature Subject tests. If he did PowerScore or some other good LSAT prep course this summer, would he have a chance at a 175? Is LSAT prep something he can realistically accomplish on the side while doing his fairly low-impact library fellowship?
Finally, I guess the longer-term questions are how miserable is law school, and could he expect to find a decent job if he does go to a top law school? But I can hold off on those until if/when he does actually get into law school and has to decide whether or not to go. For all I know, maybe he and his girlfriend break up between now and next fall and suddenly post-graduate fellowships are back on the table. But in the meantime I'm looking for advice before lining up Test Prep and registering for the August LSAT.
He should be able to do LSAT prep with that. I did LSAT prep while working full-time, but the environment may have changed since then.I'm be very appreciative of any Law School admissions real talk I can get from the vets in this thread
My son is a junior in college and thinking kind of seriously about applying to law school next year and going straight out of college. I would prefer he apply for some fellowships and wait a year or two but he is pretty resistant (primarily because he's already lived abroad twice for 6+ months since graduating from high school - gap year and semester abroad - and his longterm girlfriend is tired of being left behind). We are in agreement that he shouldn't go to law school unless he gets into a Top 6 (or so) school.
Academically, he looks good - goes to Brown and has a 4.0 GPA, double majoring in Comparative Literature and East Asian Studies. He's reasonably fluent in both Arabic and Chinese and won first place in a national collegiate Arabic translation contest. His work history is nothing special, mostly working at camp along with a research fellowship he'll do at his college library this summer. While I know there are no guarantees, my understanding is that law school admission is based in very large part on GPA and LSAT. Would he have a reasonable expectation of getting into a Top 6 school if he got a 175 LSAT? If not, what score would he need?
Next, how hard is the LSAT? He had 800s on the SAT Verbal and the SAT II Literature Subject tests. If he did PowerScore or some other good LSAT prep course this summer, would he have a chance at a 175? Is LSAT prep something he can realistically accomplish on the side while doing his fairly low-impact library fellowship?
Finally, I guess the longer-term questions are how miserable is law school, and could he expect to find a decent job if he does go to a top law school? But I can hold off on those until if/when he does actually get into law school and has to decide whether or not to go. For all I know, maybe he and his girlfriend break up between now and next fall and suddenly post-graduate fellowships are back on the table. But in the meantime I'm looking for advice before lining up Test Prep and registering for the August LSAT.
Here is the method I used to LSAT prep.I'm be very appreciative of any Law School admissions real talk I can get from the vets in this thread
My son is a junior in college and thinking kind of seriously about applying to law school next year and going straight out of college. I would prefer he apply for some fellowships and wait a year or two but he is pretty resistant (primarily because he's already lived abroad twice for 6+ months since graduating from high school - gap year and semester abroad - and his longterm girlfriend is tired of being left behind). We are in agreement that he shouldn't go to law school unless he gets into a Top 6 (or so) school.
Academically, he looks good - goes to Brown and has a 4.0 GPA, double majoring in Comparative Literature and East Asian Studies. He's reasonably fluent in both Arabic and Chinese and won first place in a national collegiate Arabic translation contest. His work history is nothing special, mostly working at camp along with a research fellowship he'll do at his college library this summer. While I know there are no guarantees, my understanding is that law school admission is based in very large part on GPA and LSAT. Would he have a reasonable expectation of getting into a Top 6 school if he got a 175 LSAT? If not, what score would he need?
Next, how hard is the LSAT? He had 800s on the SAT Verbal and the SAT II Literature Subject tests. If he did PowerScore or some other good LSAT prep course this summer, would he have a chance at a 175? Is LSAT prep something he can realistically accomplish on the side while doing his fairly low-impact library fellowship?
Finally, I guess the longer-term questions are how miserable is law school, and could he expect to find a decent job if he does go to a top law school? But I can hold off on those until if/when he does actually get into law school and has to decide whether or not to go. For all I know, maybe he and his girlfriend break up between now and next fall and suddenly post-graduate fellowships are back on the table. But in the meantime I'm looking for advice before lining up Test Prep and registering for the August LSAT.
It’s hard to talk about this in generalities, but I’d be cautious with the scholarships > rankings approach when he gets closer to making a decision, depending on what he ultimately wants to do. Certain sectors of the legal industry (big firms and particularly specialty fields like appellate litigation) are absurdly snobby about one’s alma mater.I didn't realize any Top 14 schools gave scholarships - very good info
@Instinctive thanks for the link. My sense is that my son and you think in similar ways - and those tips on how to analyze what you're getting wrong so you can identify and correct the errors will completely resonate with him. He actually likes taking standardized tests - they're like puzzles to him and he enjoys breaking them down until he can see how they've been constructed by the puzzle maker and know how to solve them.
That's why I think he's not unlikely to enjoy law school either. But you make a good point about enjoying law school and enjoying practice being such different things. All the more reason I think the comments about going for scholarships > rankings are very helpful. If he can get through with minimal debt, then he'd be far less constrained in the kind of job he'd need to land afterward to make it financially viable.
Whenever I read something like this, my first thought is always how sad it is that someone so young, bright and energetic, with the world in the palm of their hand, would throw it all away by becoming a lawyer. Sorry, I've got no real advice to offer other than to say that law school was a blast, not at all miserable that I recall. Being a lawyer ... not so much, but no complaints. Best of luck to the young man.I'm be very appreciative of any Law School admissions real talk I can get from the vets in this thread
My son is a junior in college and thinking kind of seriously about applying to law school next year and going straight out of college. I would prefer he apply for some fellowships and wait a year or two but he is pretty resistant (primarily because he's already lived abroad twice for 6+ months since graduating from high school - gap year and semester abroad - and his longterm girlfriend is tired of being left behind). We are in agreement that he shouldn't go to law school unless he gets into a Top 6 (or so) school.
Academically, he looks good - goes to Brown and has a 4.0 GPA, double majoring in Comparative Literature and East Asian Studies. He's reasonably fluent in both Arabic and Chinese and won first place in a national collegiate Arabic translation contest. His work history is nothing special, mostly working at camp along with a research fellowship he'll do at his college library this summer. While I know there are no guarantees, my understanding is that law school admission is based in very large part on GPA and LSAT. Would he have a reasonable expectation of getting into a Top 6 school if he got a 175 LSAT? If not, what score would he need?
Next, how hard is the LSAT? He had 800s on the SAT Verbal and the SAT II Literature Subject tests. If he did PowerScore or some other good LSAT prep course this summer, would he have a chance at a 175? Is LSAT prep something he can realistically accomplish on the side while doing his fairly low-impact library fellowship?
Finally, I guess the longer-term questions are how miserable is law school, and could he expect to find a decent job if he does go to a top law school? But I can hold off on those until if/when he does actually get into law school and has to decide whether or not to go. For all I know, maybe he and his girlfriend break up between now and next fall and suddenly post-graduate fellowships are back on the table. But in the meantime I'm looking for advice before lining up Test Prep and registering for the August LSAT.
I didn't realize any Top 14 schools gave scholarships - very good info
@Instinctive thanks for the link. My sense is that my son and you think in similar ways - and those tips on how to analyze what you're getting wrong so you can identify and correct the errors will completely resonate with him. He actually likes taking standardized tests - they're like puzzles to him and he enjoys breaking them down until he can see how they've been constructed by the puzzle maker and know how to solve them.
That's why I think he's not unlikely to enjoy law school either. But you make a good point about enjoying law school and enjoying practice being such different things. All the more reason I think the comments about going for scholarships > rankings are very helpful. If he can get through with minimal debt, then he'd be far less constrained in the kind of job he'd need to land afterward to make it financially viable.
Have you seen anyone be so snobby as to look down on UChicago > HLS?It’s hard to talk about this in generalities, but I’d be cautious with the scholarships > rankings approach when he gets closer to making a decision, depending on what he ultimately wants to do. Certain sectors of the legal industry (big firms and particularly specialty fields like appellate litigation) are absurdly snobby about one’s alma mater.
Well, there are certainly some Harvard/Yale grads that look down on everybody. You’re right of course that the gap is much more pronounced the larger the spread between school rankings. Most Supreme Court clerks come from the top 3 schools, though. I know a prominent appellate group that basically only hires Stanford attorneys. It’s been shocking to me how much that can still matter with some people even for mid career hires. 95% of lawyers aren’t going to have that specific conundrum, and the cheaper law school may often be a better choice. But the odds are higher than most that a 4.0 Ivy League student with a 175 LSAT may be interested in those types of positions, so it’s something to keep in mind.Have you seen anyone be so snobby as to look down on UChicago > HLS?
I think it's a total truth when you get to larger gaps (e.g. Duke vs SLS or something) but not so much on schools close to each other (e.g. Northwestern vs UChicago vs Columbia). Asking - not telling. I am still interested in these things because I advise undergrads from my alma mater every year.
Lol at Will a 4.0 from Brown and a 175 LSAT get me into a good law school. He’ll have his pick of law schools I imagine.I don't know what admissions standards are but it sounds like with his undergrad, if he gets a 175 he should be in a pretty good spot. But why are you limiting it to only Top 6 schools? I can see top tier (I recommend this to people myself) but Top 6 seems a little strict.
Also, I wouldn't worry about him finding a job. The CIA will find him.
This is true. Pedigree also can limit options for things like clerkships and ultimately positions as a judge. If he’s going to invest in a career, I’d go for the best ranked school he can get into. And my advice would be to turn off everything else in his life as a first year law student (after that matters a whole lot less). If he goes to a top school and gets top grades for just one year, he can do whatever he wants in law from there. And this is coming from a guy who was lazy and didn’t study in college, did ok on the LSAT, eeked into a top ~30 school, and ended up with a pretty decent career as a partner in biglaw. I didn’t need a better pedigree, but it wouldn’t have hurt me, and it probably could help me in a variety of ways these days still.It’s hard to talk about this in generalities, but I’d be cautious with the scholarships > rankings approach when he gets closer to making a decision, depending on what he ultimately wants to do. Certain sectors of the legal industry (big firms and particularly specialty fields like appellate litigation) are absurdly snobby about one’s alma mater.
Not to hijack my own semi-hijack of this thread, but I'll admit it's been a challenge giving him advice about what kind of career path to follow. He doesn't feel like he needs to get rich, just make a decent living, and do something that might help better society. All his friends are pursuing McKinsey and the other management consulting firms like the Holy Grail and he has zero interest in that. And he's not a software or engineering guy, or a math/quant finance guy.CletiusMaximus said:Whenever I read something like this, my first thought is always how sad it is that someone so young, bright and energetic, with the world in the palm of their hand, would throw it all away by becoming a lawyer. Sorry, I've got no real advice to offer other than to say that law school was a blast, not at all miserable that I recall. Being a lawyer ... not so much, but no complaints. Best of luck to the young man.