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The Lawyer Thread Where We Stop Ruining Other Threads (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Henry Ford
- Start date
bigbottom
Footballguy
Our outside counsel fees are multiple seven figures annually, and I ensure that all issued invoices are paid before year end (actually they are paid timely throughout the year, but I make sure that December invoices and any lagging time gets paid). My outside lawyers move heaven and earth for our organization, and timely payment should be a minimum expectation.
-fish-
Footballguy
Due to Covid, I did not resolve any contingent fee cases this year, and most of my current cases probably won't resolve until 2023. If it wasn't for the hourly stuff (which I hate, by the way), I'd be going 2 years without getting paid. I'm lucky I don't have to chase my clients for outstanding bills.
Zow
Footballguy
Zow
Footballguy
Got it.
Yeah, I spent 3 hours last Friday just sending nice but stern emails to current clients and settlement type emails to former clients with outstanding balances. No fun. But, usually doing so is worth it.
I have given serious thought about going to my law partners and seeing if they'd be open to hiring a person to simply monitor accounts and professionally but sternly get on clients who aren't paying. Seems worth it to me as we'd ideally collect more of our accounts receivable and it would probably help me catch better the matters where I need to withdraw before getting stuck.
Sand
Footballguy
In general, what's the average percentage that a law firm takes when settlement is reached in a car accident case with injuries?
I thought I heard 30% or 40% but wasn't sure.
Also, when you see billboards saying "OMG...WE GOT OUR CLIENT $1.5 MILLION!"....I assume that's gross before attorney fees, correct?
I thought I heard 30% or 40% but wasn't sure.
Also, when you see billboards saying "OMG...WE GOT OUR CLIENT $1.5 MILLION!"....I assume that's gross before attorney fees, correct?
-fish-
Footballguy
all depends. for PI the standard is 33%, but a lot of attorneys have an escalator if you get within 90 days of trial, since that's where a lot of the time comes in. Something like that would look like "30% of the total recovery through any means until 90 days before the first scheduled trial or arbitration date; 36% thereafter."
Most contingent fee attorneys are willing to negotiate their fee on a good case. If I'm competing with another firm for a solid case, I'm willing to go as low as 28%. I'm not lowering my fee at all if the case seems like it may be risky.
What an attorney advertises they got is up to them, but I'd say most go with the whole settlement amount (so yes, gross before fees).
Add: At this point, every injury known to man has been documented and logged into a shared database. The insurance company has already determined the range it is willing to pay in settlement, so the only real variables are how good your attorney is, what the amount of your out-of-pocket meds are, and whether you settle or go to trial.
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Instinctive
Footballguy
My favorite week of the year, when I send the CA Bar money to continue not practicing law just in case one day I want to.
berndog
Footballguy
My son is graduating this spring and is going to law school (171 LSAT and 3.7 GPA). One decision he is struggling with is would it be better to go to a smaller school(Campbell in NC) where he can get great aid or go to a bigger name(U of Virginia or UNC) where he will come out with boatloads of debt?
How much does the school on your diploma matter when you are looking for jobs?
Any and all insight is appreciated.
Instinctive
Footballguy
I went through a similar decision process.
Without getting into a ton of detail (there's a thread I made back in '13 about it I think):
1. There are key differences in schools that matter, which more or less boil down to:
Yale, Stanford, Harvard
The remaining top 14 schools which basically all have national reach to some extent (e.g., can get you to NY/DC BigLaw or to BigLaw in your home state)
The flagship state school in the state you plan to practice
Basically all other schools
2. If your son can go to UVA (one of those top 14 schools), there's a big difference between that and a school I've never heard of (Campbell?) for most jobs.
3. If you live in NC, and want to stay there, UNC is probably just as good as UVA and likely way cheaper.
There's no universe in which I would consider a school ranked in the 100s, no matter how free it was. It would be better to work elsewhere for a while and gain experience and/or improve my LSAT and get an offer from a reputable institution. I'm not sure how hot a take it is now, but I think it's practically negligent for a school like that to be charging anyone anything, or giving a scholarship, and handing out JDs.
Didn't @Ramsay Hunt Experience didn't go to UVA? May have advice.
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Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
I mean, the name matters if you want to go biglaw. But the golden handcuffs are real. I have no idea where Campbell falls in the rankings, but those numbers could probably get some financial assistance at a Top 30 school. As a general rule, top of the class at regional schools are good for jobs in that regional market. So if you wanted to go to a Carolina firm (maybe Womble Bond Dickinson, though they've kind of grown out of the regional firm market), maybe that would be OK (UNC would probably be better though, and Duke better still).
Instinctive
Footballguy
A great point. I only mentioned some of the other schools because he's clearly qualified to go to a great place and to get aid at really good ones.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
Yeah, Campbell seems to be in that 140 range. There's a ton of options between that kind of school and a top 10 school. Your son needs to explore more options.
-fish-
Footballguy
Zow
Footballguy
I'm not the right guy to ask. Your son blows away my LSAT (I think I was 158 or something?) and I want to a smaller school for the partial scholarship and to be close to a girl (then stayed to be close to another girl). I didn't have an option for a top tiered school (I think Temple was the best school I got into and they aren't close I don't think).
Professionally, I'm where I'm at because of my performance doing the job and not because of where I went to law school. . I haven't actually written a resume or had to answer to a prospective firm where I attended law school since my first job - and even that first job I got because my supervising attorney at the public defender's office I worked at knew of the supervisor attorney at my first job as a licensed attorney.
The above all said, assuming he wants to get into private practice (note: he shouldn't know now what he wants to do) and/or make a good income* then I'd go to the bigger named school.
*As opposed to doing some sort of public service job in law like being a public defender or work for legal aid - which are damn fine, noble, and rewarding jobs they just pay a fraction of the private jobs.
Don Quixote
Footballguy
Yeah, a lot of options in that range, even just looking at options in Virginia and North Carolina, if committed to that area. I’ll plug mine in W&L. His son could also look at William & Mary and Wake Forest to give some other alternatives below the top tier options, but ranked much higher than Campbell.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
berndog
Footballguy
@Ramsay Hunt Experience @Zow @Instinctive @Don Quixote
Thanks for your replies! I will pass on this information and do my best to steer him towards a better school. The final decision is his as my financial committment ended with his undergraduate degree.
Thanks for your replies! I will pass on this information and do my best to steer him towards a better school. The final decision is his as my financial committment ended with his undergraduate degree.
Lots of good comments in this thread. I'll just say "it depends" and provide my story.
I had a 3.8 undergrad GPA in physics, worked several years in corporate America, got a 163 (165?) on the LSAT, and got partial scholarships to several law schools ranked around 20. I owned a house, so if I moved out state I would have had to rent that out. Decided to stay home and go to a local law school (ranked 120?) on a full ride.
In my case, I knew that the school wouldn't ultimately matter since I planned to go into patent law and could get a job at any number of local firms. I knew the salary at each of those firms was basically the same. Had I tried to get a job out of state, probably would have been harder. I did interview with a huge IP litigation firm and found out after the fact that the only reason I didn't get that job was because of my law school.
Point is, I think a person needs to do some calculus to figure out what they want to do, where they wants to live/work, and how much debt they are willing to incur.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
I had a similar story - when I was interviewing for a job change - at the time a partner at a large firm in Chicago doing exclusively corporate restructuring / commercial bankruptcy and finance type work, which was the exact work the target job required. The recruiter told me they would not interview me because they required either a top 20 law school or partner at a top 100 (I think?) law firm. I asked her whether it mattered that my law school was top 20 when I graduated 15 years earlier. It did not. I blamed myself for not giving my school more money each year to keep its ranking up. The lesson learned was, in some cases your law school ranking remains important deep into your career regardless of any on-point real world experience.
whoknew
Footballguy
I generally tell people - if you get into a top 15 law school, do that. Otherwise go to the cheapest law school you can find.
The first part comes with a caveat - he has to be willing to work at a big firm. If he wants to be a public defender or DA or something - then go to an inexpensive law school because he won't make enough money to pay off the loans.
Don Quixote
Footballguy
I ran into some of that too (a bit younger, but still as a lateral). The only firm that really questioned me on it was when I was lateraling over to the BigLaw firm that RHE used to work at too. Some partners in my group went over there, and I was being interviewed as a lateral associate, which I thought would be a shoo-in. But that firm had a bunch of Ivy League types (there were a couple others from W&L there, but not many). During interview, I had to explain that W&L gave me a scholarship such that I mostly just had to borrow for room and board (and Lexington, VA was a cheap place to live); so, I left law school with under $15k debt and paid it off in about 3 years and they backed down a bit (and got the offer in the end), but still felt like they put me on the defensive.
(I can contrast myself to my wife who went to GW Law, came out with $200k debt and we're still paying that off 15 years later.)
If @berndog's son does take a "lesser" school because of scholarship, tell him to be sure to put that scholarship down on his resume as can help with that story. I did that too, but obviously not everyone reads that.
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Am I missing something here, why does the real life experience not trump where you graduated?
Instinctive
Footballguy
Because the legal field (read: many of the people in it) are prestige-seeking animals who care a lot more about heuristics and pedigree than skill/talent in most cases.
As a result, a portion of the value you're providing as a firm is your network with other lawyers in elite spots.
And thus the cycle continues.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
That was my reaction at the time but I assumed its just a case of the company providing these gatekeeping parameters to the recruiter and they were not considering any exceptions regardless of real world experience. The job was in Minneapolis so its not like they had a large local top 20 pool to choose from. I think it worked out well for me in the end not getting that job anyway.
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Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
You go to the best school that you can get into. Worry about cost later.
If schools are in the same tier, then you weigh financial aid, location (where you want to live or practice), areas of interest (does the school have a journal specific to an area you want to practice in or offer more classes in an area), and then you visit these schools and try to get a feel for the culture there.
If schools are in the same tier, then you weigh financial aid, location (where you want to live or practice), areas of interest (does the school have a journal specific to an area you want to practice in or offer more classes in an area), and then you visit these schools and try to get a feel for the culture there.
Zow
Footballguy
johnnycakes
Footballguy
If you're a partner, it's par for the course.Zow said:
Zow
Footballguy
Harry Frogfish
Footballguy
I need an employment attorney referral. Orange County (Newport Beach), Ca.
Asking for a friend (for real).
Basically, she's a caregiver who finally quit after 5 years in a super toxic environment. To give you an idea, the last straw was being reprimanded for drinking too much water, literally (allowed 8 cups, she drank 9 this day and was "caught" on camera). I could fill a page here of incidents the last 5 years that the FFA would not believe, but right now I just need an attorney to review, or re-write the severance agreement, which currently states she cannot sue, once signed.
I have a friend who is an attorney who took one look at it and said do not let her sign that and get her an employment attorney ASAP. So I thought I I'd try here before googling.
Some history. Never late ONCE in 5 years. Never took ONE vacation day, averaging 72 hours a week. Never called in sick, not once. No raises. Worked for an ailing Mother, yet also made meals for the Father frequently and did errands for the daughter throughout. In short, a model employee in a work environment that was a revolving door for unhappy, mistreated employees. One of which is now suing.
I would just like to make sure her severance agreement is reviewed, approved and done properly, with her best interests at hand.
Thank you very much.
Asking for a friend (for real).
Basically, she's a caregiver who finally quit after 5 years in a super toxic environment. To give you an idea, the last straw was being reprimanded for drinking too much water, literally (allowed 8 cups, she drank 9 this day and was "caught" on camera). I could fill a page here of incidents the last 5 years that the FFA would not believe, but right now I just need an attorney to review, or re-write the severance agreement, which currently states she cannot sue, once signed.
I have a friend who is an attorney who took one look at it and said do not let her sign that and get her an employment attorney ASAP. So I thought I I'd try here before googling.
Some history. Never late ONCE in 5 years. Never took ONE vacation day, averaging 72 hours a week. Never called in sick, not once. No raises. Worked for an ailing Mother, yet also made meals for the Father frequently and did errands for the daughter throughout. In short, a model employee in a work environment that was a revolving door for unhappy, mistreated employees. One of which is now suing.
I would just like to make sure her severance agreement is reviewed, approved and done properly, with her best interests at hand.
Thank you very much.
bigbottom
Footballguy
I know employment lawyers in OC, but they are all on the defense side. Apologies. That said, I’m not sure what the magic is on reviewing the severance agreement. She can rest assured that she is giving up any and all waivable rights to bring a legal claim against her employer in exchange for a severance payment. If she is willing to waive the claims in exchange for money, the only real pertinent point of negotiation is the amount and timing of severance. Now, a lawyer can likely help her in negotiating a higher amount, but she’ll have to pay the lawyer and should understand what that will run her.
Now if she is contemplating suing, and wants advice on the strength of her legal claims and potential recovery, then yes, she for sure needs to speak to a lawyer.
Now if she is contemplating suing, and wants advice on the strength of her legal claims and potential recovery, then yes, she for sure needs to speak to a lawyer.
bigbottom
Footballguy
Also, I don’t see any actionable legal claims for her based solely on what you’ve written in your post (assuming they have paid her correctly, accounting for overtime). I imagine there is more to the story there and there could be actionable claims. But it’s worth noting that she is the one who quit. I’d hate for her to push too hard or delay too long and end up with them revoking the severance offer. Not saying she shouldn’t consult an attorney (she probably should), but I’d also be careful about being too confident in thinking she’s the one with all the bargaining power.
Harry Frogfish
Footballguy
I understand. Sent you a PM. She absolutely has grounds but I'm not going to muddle the thread about those details. That said, she's not litigious and I'm actually the one who is just trying to make sure she doesn't sign something she shouldn't. I would just like her to to sit down with a professional, go over everything and based on that, make the right decision.
The way this came about and how it's being force-fed, gives me pause is all.
Zow
Footballguy
Finished my fifth ever jury trial where a guilty verdict would result in my client going to prison for natural life/rest of life without possibility of parole.
One day maybe one of my clients won’t get to go home to his or her family, but today wasn’t that day. Now 5-0 in the most serious of cases.
The job sucks a lot of the time, but it’s hard to beat winning and having a client or his mother collapse into your arms thanking you for the work you’ve done and being the only person to fight for them.
One day maybe one of my clients won’t get to go home to his or her family, but today wasn’t that day. Now 5-0 in the most serious of cases.
The job sucks a lot of the time, but it’s hard to beat winning and having a client or his mother collapse into your arms thanking you for the work you’ve done and being the only person to fight for them.
johnnycakes
Footballguy
BigJim®
Footballguy
Just bumping for anyone who has interest. This city board is going down swinging. First development was the township board appealing a court order against their legal position (which should have resolved, and is forcing the family to incur ongoing legal costs). Now, they are rejecting a voter resolution that would have resolved their continuing pettiness, calling the resolution illegal.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
Are state bars asleep at the wheel? Sure seems like the lawyers for Google that knew about this scheme to confer obviously unethical and legally wrong privilege to emails simply to avoid later discovery should be sanctioned at minimum or even possibly losing their license if they are found to be active participants in the scheme.
Hopefully the DOJ’a pursuit of this wakes up some state bars to get involved with this as well.
Anytime a company has a slogan like “Don’t do evil” you can pretty well count on them to eventually be the exact opposite of that.
Hopefully the DOJ’a pursuit of this wakes up some state bars to get involved with this as well.
Anytime a company has a slogan like “Don’t do evil” you can pretty well count on them to eventually be the exact opposite of that.
Dezbelief
Footballguy
greenmountaingoat
Footballguy
Asking any family law folks out there:
A month ago, Ex and I have exchanged numbers/ emails (we're off by a ways) on an updated child support agreement. Sadly, all of the hard work I've done to advance my career is now going to be flushed thanks to her lack of pursuing her career. I could rant for days... Masters degree, licensed Architect making 47k teaching part time
my with a 2 year degree busting my hump. Got a huge raise last year after spending 6 years accumulating debt paying for her tattoos and motorcycles while she opened up an in home daycare and charged me to watch her own children. Am I bitter? lol. I digress...
Last exchange (two weeks ago) was (her) "OK fine, I've copied my lawyer on this email, lawyer please file the motion with the state."
So I've been expecting (paper) mail from the county courthouse and figured I'd have my day in court to tell them the reasons why she doesn't deserve my well earned raise. But instead, an email from her lawyer.
Hi Mr. XXXX
I represent the interests of Beelzebub with respect to a possible child support modification. I am wondering if we could speak about the calculations we have come to and if you would be able to assent to the change in support. We are happy to send you our calculations.
Please let me know how it would be best to communicate.
I have some time Friday afternoon if that works for you.
Signed,
Right hand of the devil
I thought I would write back with- sure, send me what you have so far. I'll look it over.
But now I'm wondering if this is a trap. I feel I can handle myself in this negotiation but I don't want to screw this up either.
Is this a trap?
A month ago, Ex and I have exchanged numbers/ emails (we're off by a ways) on an updated child support agreement. Sadly, all of the hard work I've done to advance my career is now going to be flushed thanks to her lack of pursuing her career. I could rant for days... Masters degree, licensed Architect making 47k teaching part time
my with a 2 year degree busting my hump. Got a huge raise last year after spending 6 years accumulating debt paying for her tattoos and motorcycles while she opened up an in home daycare and charged me to watch her own children. Am I bitter? lol. I digress...Last exchange (two weeks ago) was (her) "OK fine, I've copied my lawyer on this email, lawyer please file the motion with the state."
So I've been expecting (paper) mail from the county courthouse and figured I'd have my day in court to tell them the reasons why she doesn't deserve my well earned raise. But instead, an email from her lawyer.
Hi Mr. XXXX
I represent the interests of Beelzebub with respect to a possible child support modification. I am wondering if we could speak about the calculations we have come to and if you would be able to assent to the change in support. We are happy to send you our calculations.
Please let me know how it would be best to communicate.
I have some time Friday afternoon if that works for you.
Signed,
Right hand of the devil
I thought I would write back with- sure, send me what you have so far. I'll look it over.
But now I'm wondering if this is a trap. I feel I can handle myself in this negotiation but I don't want to screw this up either.
Is this a trap?
It might be wise to have your own attorney who negotiate on your behalf. Get somebody who does this for a living and who can negotiate without emotion. Spend a little money in the short term on an attorney so you don't have to spend a lot of money long term.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
I’m not a lawyer but this seems wise. You tried to work it out between the two of you but it didn’t work and now she has a lawyer involved. You need to get a lawyer so that you don’t get screwed, so that you don’t screw yourself, and so that you can take the emotion out of it for the actual negotiation.
All those elements you bring up, a lawyer will know what may actually factor in and be considered by a court and what items won’t matter to a court. Something you think may be a big deal that should result in much lower payments may very well be completely ignored by a court. Something else may be taken into account though and mean something.
I’ve heard of women who turn down offers and go to court and end up getting way less than the offer. I’ve also heard of guys who turn down offers and go to court and end up paying way more than what was offered. A good lawyer may or may not get you the first scenario, but they’re almost certainly going to keep you from ending up in the 2nd scenario.
Thorn
Footballguy
Agree. Being "able to handle negotiations" is one thing. Dealing with an emotionally-charged issue with legal implications, against an expert in that type of law, is quite another.
2Squirrels1Nut
Footballguy
I'm not laughing at you, I've been through this and it is hell, but your post did make me laugh. Praying for the best for you and that this quickly gets put behind you so you can lead the happier life you deserve.Asking any family law folks out there:
A month ago, Ex and I have exchanged numbers/ emails (we're off by a ways) on an updated child support agreement. Sadly, all of the hard work I've done to advance my career is now going to be flushed thanks to her lack of pursuing her career. I could rant for days... Masters degree, licensed Architect making 47k teaching part time
Last exchange (two weeks ago) was (her) "OK fine, I've copied my lawyer on this email, lawyer please file the motion with the state."
So I've been expecting (paper) mail from the county courthouse and figured I'd have my day in court to tell them the reasons why she doesn't deserve my well earned raise. But instead, an email from her lawyer.
Hi Mr. XXXX
I represent the interests of Beelzebub with respect to a possible child support modification. I am wondering if we could speak about the calculations we have come to and if you would be able to assent to the change in support. We are happy to send you our calculations.
Please let me know how it would be best to communicate.
I have some time Friday afternoon if that works for you.
Signed,
Right hand of the devil
I thought I would write back with- sure, send me what you have so far. I'll look it over.
But now I'm wondering if this is a trap. I feel I can handle myself in this negotiation but I don't want to screw this up either.
Is this a trap?
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