The Lawyer Thread Where We Stop Ruining Other Threads

[Henry Ford 60,520]

Jesus, and we wonder why people hate lawyers.

I find the people who hate lawyers, for the most part, have never needed one. I only dislike incompetent lawyers. Thankfully I have never hired a bad one. And I am paying them to be a pit bull when necessary. So I say don't hate, hire a better lawyer instead.

We've all done mediations knowing that we aren't going to change our position. I've had to go in knowing the parties are hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars apart. I've never had to do something like that. I state my client's position, listen to their position, and if we have nothing further to discuss I thank everyone for their time and leave. I just don't see any reason for monologues about coffee or whatever other silliness. If $100 is his offer, fine. Just say that. "This is my offer, and I don't think we have anything else to talk about."

I will say that sometimes when an alleged "impartial" like a mediator is clearly not being impartial and the other side is being insulting, it's hard to hold back on these things.

[fantasycurse42 8,316]

Fair market value to have a misdemeanor with a small fine paid upon conviction expunged from 2001?

It is in central NJ if that matters.

TIA

The last expungment I did was for a friend of my former boss and I think we charged a discounted rate of $750 flat I think? I would probably say then you are looking at $1,500 so long as there are no objections from the prosecutor or police department. Expungments are a tad bit of work though so you need to make sure that it is actually something that can get expunged.

I've emailed 3 different NJ lawyers. Heard back from one. He said it shouldn't be an issue. Quoted $900.

That seems fair without knowing any of the specifics. You obviously want to find someone who practices in the area you are filing the motion. That cuts down on your cost most of the time.

Cool, thanks... Yea he is 20 minutes away from the township this is located.

[CletiusMaximus 9,106]

Jesus, and we wonder why people hate lawyers.

I find the people who hate lawyers, for the most part, have never needed one. I only dislike incompetent lawyers. Thankfully I have never hired a bad one. And I am paying them to be a pit bull when necessary. So I say don't hate, hire a better lawyer instead.

We've all done mediations knowing that we aren't going to change our position. I've had to go in knowing the parties are hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars apart. I've never had to do something like that. I state my client's position, listen to their position, and if we have nothing further to discuss I thank everyone for their time and leave. I just don't see any reason for monologues about coffee or whatever other silliness. If $100 is his offer, fine. Just say that. "This is my offer, and I don't think we have anything else to talk about."

No I admit I was a #####. I don't need to be defended. The mediator set me off and it went from there.

That mediator was ####### clueless.

Perhaps, but if both sides are unhappy and think the mediator is clueless, but they've settled the case, he's done his job and most likely done it well.

[Zow 8,614]

Jesus, and we wonder why people hate lawyers.

I find the people who hate lawyers, for the most part, have never needed one. I only dislike incompetent lawyers. Thankfully I have never hired a bad one. And I am paying them to be a pit bull when necessary. So I say don't hate, hire a better lawyer instead.

We've all done mediations knowing that we aren't going to change our position. I've had to go in knowing the parties are hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars apart. I've never had to do something like that. I state my client's position, listen to their position, and if we have nothing further to discuss I thank everyone for their time and leave. I just don't see any reason for monologues about coffee or whatever other silliness. If $100 is his offer, fine. Just say that. "This is my offer, and I don't think we have anything else to talk about."

No I admit I was a #####. I don't need to be defended. The mediator set me off and it went from there.

That mediator was ####### clueless.

Perhaps, but if both sides are unhappy and think the mediator is clueless, but they've settled the case, he's done his job and most likely done it well.

Fair point. Was mainly referring to the idea that he speak to the client without counsel present. That's absurd.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Zow

[Zow 8,614]

Positive note:

For the past two years I've been trying to convince CPS that a foster mother in one of my cases, where my client has done a total 180 of her life and I couldn't be more proud of her, has been lying and downright sabotaging the case. Yesterday, after two years of me arguing both in and outside of court to what felt like deaf ears and mainly looking like the "bad guy" to the rest of the courtroom actors involved, CPS has reached the conclusion I've been asserting all along, have removed the children from this particular foster home, and will be implementing a plan to return the child to my client.

Seriously considering buying a bottle of Dom tonight.

[Henry Ford 60,520]

Positive note:

For the past two years I've been trying to convince CPS that a foster mother in one of my cases, where my client has done a total 180 of her life and I couldn't be more proud of her, has been lying and downright sabotaging the case. Yesterday, after two years of me arguing both in and outside of court to what felt like deaf ears and mainly looking like the "bad guy" to the rest of the courtroom actors involved, CPS has reached the conclusion I've been asserting all along, have removed the children from this particular foster home, and will be implementing a plan to return the child to my client.

Seriously considering buying a bottle of Dom tonight.

DeLuise?

[Yankee23Fan 9,376]

Nice. Good guys win is always a good story. They don't happen as often as they should.

I was on the opposite end of a table from an attorney that has a massive federal case against a certain state CPS/DFYS - whatever they call it - because the foster family lost the kid. He's just gone. Just awful.

[Christo 6,185]

Positive note:

For the past two years I've been trying to convince CPS that a foster mother in one of my cases, where my client has done a total 180 of her life and I couldn't be more proud of her, has been lying and downright sabotaging the case. Yesterday, after two years of me arguing both in and outside of court to what felt like deaf ears and mainly looking like the "bad guy" to the rest of the courtroom actors involved, CPS has reached the conclusion I've been asserting all along, have removed the children from this particular foster home, and will be implementing a plan to return the child to my client.

Seriously considering buying a bottle of Dom tonight.

Those are the days that make all of the others palatable.

[Zow 8,614]

Positive note:

For the past two years I've been trying to convince CPS that a foster mother in one of my cases, where my client has done a total 180 of her life and I couldn't be more proud of her, has been lying and downright sabotaging the case. Yesterday, after two years of me arguing both in and outside of court to what felt like deaf ears and mainly looking like the "bad guy" to the rest of the courtroom actors involved, CPS has reached the conclusion I've been asserting all along, have removed the children from this particular foster home, and will be implementing a plan to return the child to my client.

Seriously considering buying a bottle of Dom tonight.

DeLuise?

He'd probably be cheaper.

[Zow 8,614]

Nice. Good guys win is always a good story. They don't happen as often as they should.

I was on the opposite end of a table from an attorney that has a massive federal case against a certain state CPS/DFYS - whatever they call it - because the foster family lost the kid. He's just gone. Just awful.

Jesus that's terrible.

[CletiusMaximus 9,106]

Positive note:

For the past two years I've been trying to convince CPS that a foster mother in one of my cases, where my client has done a total 180 of her life and I couldn't be more proud of her, has been lying and downright sabotaging the case. Yesterday, after two years of me arguing both in and outside of court to what felt like deaf ears and mainly looking like the "bad guy" to the rest of the courtroom actors involved, CPS has reached the conclusion I've been asserting all along, have removed the children from this particular foster home, and will be implementing a plan to return the child to my client.

Seriously considering buying a bottle of Dom tonight.

Nice. But even the best champagne is still just bubbly white wine. Get some bourbon and cigars and celebrate your victory the right way.

[Henry Ford 60,520]

Nice. Good guys win is always a good story. They don't happen as often as they should.

I was on the opposite end of a table from an attorney that has a massive federal case against a certain state CPS/DFYS - whatever they call it - because the foster family lost the kid. He's just gone. Just awful.

That's actually one of the few circumstances I can imagine worse than my DHS case.

[Zow 8,614]

Positive note:

For the past two years I've been trying to convince CPS that a foster mother in one of my cases, where my client has done a total 180 of her life and I couldn't be more proud of her, has been lying and downright sabotaging the case. Yesterday, after two years of me arguing both in and outside of court to what felt like deaf ears and mainly looking like the "bad guy" to the rest of the courtroom actors involved, CPS has reached the conclusion I've been asserting all along, have removed the children from this particular foster home, and will be implementing a plan to return the child to my client.

Seriously considering buying a bottle of Dom tonight.

Nice. But even the best champagne is still just bubbly white wine. Get some bourbon and cigars and celebrate your victory the right way.

I hear you. Dom is my firm's "thing" when something abnormally positive happens. One of the partners keeps a collection of of the empty bottles as a memorial of the occasion.

[Zow 8,614]

Nice. Good guys win is always a good story. They don't happen as often as they should.

I was on the opposite end of a table from an attorney that has a massive federal case against a certain state CPS/DFYS - whatever they call it - because the foster family lost the kid. He's just gone. Just awful.

That's actually one of the few circumstances I can imagine worse than my DHS case.

Yeah I couldn't even imagine the nightmare that would ensue if that happened on a case. I've had a few where the kids have tried to kill placement, bio parent try to run off with kid(s), etc. but it has always ended without total disaster.

[T Bell 1,561]

Here:

Generally, covenants not-to-compete that are made in connection with the sale of a business follow the same provisions and guidelines as covenants not-to-compete in the employer/employee context. FLA. STAT. § 542.335. Such covenants made on or after July 1, 1996, are presumed reasonable if they are three years or less in duration and presumed unreasonable if they are more than seven years in duration. Id. at § 542.335(1)(d)(3). Nevertheless, covenants not-to-compete must not impose a greater restraint than is reasonably necessary to protect the business conveyed. Id. at § 542.335(1)©.

That's it! Thanks! Sorry, didn't click your links after you had said they weren't applicable.

Does anyone have access to, or know where I can access, a 50-state survey on non-competes in an acquisition context? When I was at Skadden we had this glorious book that was constantly updated, and since leaving Skadden over 20 years ago I have never been able to find or replicate that.

Specifically, right now I'm trying to figure out if a 10-year non-compete (again, acquisition context, not employment) is allowable in Florida. I'm getting conflicting information, some of it indicating that it must be limited to seven years.

I think the book you want is this.

I don't really want it; just wish for this one time I could point to something to get people on the same page here.

You misspelled "Thank you, I've been looking for that book for 20 years."

I might have engaged in a bit of hyperbole initially. I need to find out something like this perhaps once every 5-7 years, so really I haven't given a #### about that book until I just remembered it. But you are right--thank you for finding this.

I might have found it by pasting "50-state survey on non-competes in an acquisition context" into google and clicking the first link.

a/k/a "Legal research into statutory and case law re covenants not to compete, including limitations and legal exeptions. .9 hours"

[Zow 8,614]

I just got appointed on a new criminal case. Glanced through the standard court docs and on the release questionnaire, under occupation, the defendant listed "drug dealer".

[Yankee23Fan 9,376]

[T Bell 1,561]

I just got appointed on a new criminal case. Glanced through the standard court docs and on the release questionnaire, under occupation, the defendant listed "drug dealer".

The world can be a cruel place to the honest among us.

[Thorn 3,037]

Found out I lost my trial from a couple weeks back. Poop.

[Yankee23Fan 9,376]

Found out I lost my trial from a couple weeks back. Poop.

Bench trial?

[NCCommish 7,522]

I just got appointed on a new criminal case. Glanced through the standard court docs and on the release questionnaire, under occupation, the defendant listed "drug dealer".

The world can be a cruel place to the honest among us.

So true

[Henry Ford 60,520]

I just got appointed on a new criminal case. Glanced through the standard court docs and on the release questionnaire, under occupation, the defendant listed "drug dealer".

I assume he's not being charged with... well, anything other than drug dealing?

[Yankee23Fan 9,376]

(f-word, f-word, f-word, f-word)

I just found out a disability client had another massive medical issue. And meanwhile Social Security has made this poor girl go up the entire chain denying everything as they come and now I have to wait for a full hearing. About a year from now. Godmother*******dam***. This is one client where if I won the lottery I'm taking care of her and her family forever. I bleed for this family and this crap. I've seen morons who claim emotional issues get full disability and then work under the table and drive luxury cars and this single mom is just trying to take care of her kids.

If I could punch someone right now I would. ####.

[NCCommish 7,522]

(f-word, f-word, f-word, f-word)

I just found out a disability client had another massive medical issue. And meanwhile Social Security has made this poor girl go up the entire chain denying everything as they come and now I have to wait for a full hearing. About a year from now. Godmother*******dam***. This is one client where if I won the lottery I'm taking care of her and her family forever. I bleed for this family and this crap. I've seen morons who claim emotional issues get full disability and then work under the table and drive luxury cars and this single mom is just trying to take care of her kids.

If I could punch someone right now I would. ####.

Sorry to hear that.

[Henry Ford 60,520]

(f-word, f-word, f-word, f-word)

I just found out a disability client had another massive medical issue. And meanwhile Social Security has made this poor girl go up the entire chain denying everything as they come and now I have to wait for a full hearing. About a year from now. Godmother*******dam***. This is one client where if I won the lottery I'm taking care of her and her family forever. I bleed for this family and this crap. I've seen morons who claim emotional issues get full disability and then work under the table and drive luxury cars and this single mom is just trying to take care of her kids.

If I could punch someone right now I would. ####.

Sorry, man. Those are the worst. I hate it when the ones I care about get screwed over.

[Yankee23Fan 9,376]

Do firms keep "batting averages" internally for their attorneys?

I know the cases I would categorize as a win and a loss, but since most cases settle it's subjective.

[CletiusMaximus 9,106]

Do firms keep "batting averages" internally for their attorneys?

Back in the day, certain large firms were known to circulate monthly or even weekly billing numbers for associates to all firm members, just so everyone knew where they stood.

[Ramsay Hunt Experience 19,526]

Do firms keep "batting averages" internally for their attorneys?

Back in the day, certain large firms were known to circulate monthly or even weekly billing numbers for associates to all firm members, just so everyone knew where they stood.

I'm not sure he means billables. He might mean "wins and losses."

Obviously, I think firms remember who gets results that clients are happy with and who doesn't. But I doubt they track who wins at trial versus who loses or even who secures higher or lower settlements. Because its tough to quantify how those outcomes are affected by good or bad lawyering. Some cases are dogs.

[johnnycakes 1,189]

Do firms keep "batting averages" internally for their attorneys?

Back in the day, certain large firms were known to circulate monthly or even weekly billing numbers for associates to all firm members, just so everyone knew where they stood.

Are you referring to actual billings or billable hours?

[Thorn 3,037]

Found out I lost my trial from a couple weeks back. Poop.

Bench trial?

Yes. Disputed real estate commission. I was trying to reform the contract to bind the principal's corporation since only the principal as an individual was a party, but everyone labored as if the corporation was bound.

Thought I was winning all the way through (made the principal look like a fool on the stand), but then during closing, the judge had a bunch of questions for me about an issue NO ONE RAISED during the trial, so I knew I might be in trouble.

Weighing a motion for additional findings to set up a possible appeal.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Thorn

[Zow 8,614]

Do firms keep "batting averages" internally for their attorneys?

I know of some that do. I interviewed for a DUI defense firm that (in my opinion unethically) kept statistics for their attorneys and required a certain performance levels.

The first public defender's office I worked at kept some statistics on how quickly we moved cases and what percentage went to trial. But that was for purely budgetary reasons. As a group we had a friendly competition amongst attorneys where we kept track of jury trial wins and had a "golden gavel" that would get passed around the office, but that was purely for fun.

As others indicated above, keeping a "batting average" is incredibly difficult because defining a "win" is purely subjective. Sometimes a win is getting a great plea deal, beating the highest charge at trial (with the client being convicted of the lesser includes), getting evidence suppressed so that a trial never even happens, or simply taking the case to trial and putting on a sort of "slow" mitigation hearing to plant the seed in the judge to issue a sentence which "beats" the best plea offer made. Since, on paper, these aren't pure acquittals using actual acquittal numbers are somewhat meaningless. It's why the state bar frowns significantly on attorneys using statistics in advertisements.

[Zow 8,614]

I just got appointed on a new criminal case. Glanced through the standard court docs and on the release questionnaire, under occupation, the defendant listed "drug dealer".

I assume he's not being charged with... well, anything other than drug dealing?

It's a she. And so far she's only being charged with multiple counts of possession.

[thecatch 2,234]

Do firms keep "batting averages" internally for their attorneys?

Back in the day, certain large firms were known to circulate monthly or even weekly billing numbers for associates to all firm members, just so everyone knew where they stood.

I recently moved to a firm that does this. I was shocked.

[Thorn 3,037]

Do firms keep "batting averages" internally for their attorneys?

Back in the day, certain large firms were known to circulate monthly or even weekly billing numbers for associates to all firm members, just so everyone knew where they stood.

I recently moved to a firm that does this. I was shocked.

Why?

[Henry Ford 60,520]

I just got appointed on a new criminal case. Glanced through the standard court docs and on the release questionnaire, under occupation, the defendant listed "drug dealer".

I assume he's not being charged with... well, anything other than drug dealing?

It's a she. And so far she's only being charged with multiple counts of possession.

Wow.

[Don Quixote 4,780]

"Your honor, it does not say drug dealer. It says d rug dealer. She sells rugs."

[thecatch 2,234]

Do firms keep "batting averages" internally for their attorneys?

Back in the day, certain large firms were known to circulate monthly or even weekly billing numbers for associates to all firm members, just so everyone knew where they stood.

I recently moved to a firm that does this. I was shocked.

Why?

Hours billed were considered pretty confidential information at my prior firm. I have no idea what the industry standard is on that front but coming from that environment into one that practices public shaming (despite otherwise being considered a "friendlier" big firm to work for) was a little jarring.

[Thorn 3,037]

Do firms keep "batting averages" internally for their attorneys?

Back in the day, certain large firms were known to circulate monthly or even weekly billing numbers for associates to all firm members, just so everyone knew where they stood.

I recently moved to a firm that does this. I was shocked.

Why?

Hours billed were considered pretty confidential information at my prior firm. I have no idea what the industry standard is on that front but coming from that environment into one that practices public shaming (despite otherwise being considered a "friendlier" big firm to work for) was a little jarring.

Interesting. One of my gripes with my prior firm is they wouldn't even tell me my own numbers until the year was over. I always thought that was odd. Though maybe telling everyone all the numbers is too much the other way.

[Henry Ford 60,520]

You know when you're two years into a case and your client finally gets surgery because he's been waiting for insurance to clear it, and the surgery video shows the treating surgeon that it's clearly the result of long-term degradation of the soft tissue, and not the result of a single acute injury as you've been arguing for two years?

Yeah, I've never had that happen to me either.

[Ramsay Hunt Experience 19,526]

I think most firms will at least have a tool to show your utilization numbers on the firm intranet now. Showing everybody's numbers might be a bit odd, but I think it's helpful to know if your practice group is in a slowdown or if you're just not getting work. But that's the big firm washout speaking.

[Yankee23Fan 9,376]

You know when you're two years into a case and your client finally gets surgery because he's been waiting for insurance to clear it, and the surgery video shows the treating surgeon that it's clearly the result of long-term degradation of the soft tissue, and not the result of a single acute injury as you've been arguing for two years?

Yeah, I've never had that happen to me either.

lol. Sorry.

[thecatch 2,234]

I think most firms will at least have a tool to show your utilization numbers on the firm intranet now. Showing everybody's numbers might be a bit odd, but I think it's helpful to know if your practice group is in a slowdown or if you're just not getting work. But that's the big firm washout speaking.

That's true too. But if you look around and everyone's billables are bad, that raises its own concerns about the health of the firm/practice group.

Edited August 21, 2014 by thecatch

[Ramsay Hunt Experience 19,526]

I think most firms will at least have a tool to show your utilization numbers on the firm intranet now. Showing everybody's numbers might be a bit odd, but I think it's helpful to know if your practice group is in a slowdown or if you're just not getting work. But that's the big firm washout speaking.

That's true too. But if you look around and everyone's billables are bad, that raises its own concerns about the health of the firm.

Yeah, that's why I'm also a smaller firm washout.

[Henry Ford 60,520]

You know when you're two years into a case and your client finally gets surgery because he's been waiting for insurance to clear it, and the surgery video shows the treating surgeon that it's clearly the result of long-term degradation of the soft tissue, and not the result of a single acute injury as you've been arguing for two years?

Yeah, I've never had that happen to me either.

lol. Sorry.

Now I get to go tell an 85 year old man that his case is gone like Keyser Soze.

[Christo 6,185]

You know when you're two years into a case and your client finally gets surgery because he's been waiting for insurance to clear it, and the surgery video shows the treating surgeon that it's clearly the result of long-term degradation of the soft tissue, and not the result of a single acute injury as you've been arguing for two years?

Yeah, I've never had that happen to me either.

lol. Sorry.

Now I get to go tell an 85 year old man that his case is gone like Keyser Soze.

I had to do something similar last month after a treater testified pre-surgery. The doc did as best he could to convey his optimism about what he thought he might find. But he wasn't very convincing and the other attorney asked me as we were walking to our car --is your client really going to opt for the surgery based upon that? He had a big smile on his face while he was asking.

[T Bell 1,561]

Do firms keep "batting averages" internally for their attorneys?

Yes, and they like the numbers to begin with a "$".

[T Bell 1,561]

I just got appointed on a new criminal case. Glanced through the standard court docs and on the release questionnaire, under occupation, the defendant listed "drug dealer".

I assume he's not being charged with... well, anything other than drug dealing?

It's a she. And so far she's only being charged with multiple counts of possession.

Gee, how are they going to establish intent to distribute? Hmmm...

Edited August 22, 2014 by T Bell

[T Bell 1,561]

You know when you're two years into a case and your client finally gets surgery because he's been waiting for insurance to clear it, and the surgery video shows the treating surgeon that it's clearly the result of long-term degradation of the soft tissue, and not the result of a single acute injury as you've been arguing for two years?

Yeah, I've never had that happen to me either.

How's about a hug?

[PatsWillWin 669]

I just got appointed on a new criminal case. Glanced through the standard court docs and on the release questionnaire, under occupation, the defendant listed "drug dealer".

Lawyer that #### up - "Phamaceutical Rep."

[Zow 8,614]

I just got appointed on a new criminal case. Glanced through the standard court docs and on the release questionnaire, under occupation, the defendant listed "drug dealer".

Lawyer that #### up - "Phamaceutical Rep."

And then watch a jury laugh at me?