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The Lawyer Thread Where We Stop Ruining Other Threads (6 Viewers)
- Thread starter Henry Ford
- Start date
BassNBrew
Footballguy
Just having some fun with you.Zow said:
That said, YankeeFan commented that people have no idea what they are talking about regarding bankruptcy. That's when most people would step in and clear the air. I can't give tax advice in my profession, but I can tell people to talk to an account because X transaction may be a beneficial to you financially. I can't give legal advice, but I can tell someone to contact an attorney to get help because I saw Y happen in my last court appearance.
Now I really don't understand why you guys can give advice to people in some instances on this forum, but can't chime (along with a disclaimer that you're not give legal advice) to clear up mis statements just because it relates to magic football on a magic football board. Furthermore, there's probably some precedent relating to this that can be referenced along the lines of this is how the courts dealt with a similar issue in a different instance. I was looking for someone to share facts, not give legal advice.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Ask me a specific hypothetical.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
I'm not too concerned with tendering legal advice in the abstract, I just don't think it's very productive to try to answer a likely moot question. I also don't understand why people think they're arguing about bankruptcy.
FWIW, most of the people are arguing past one another without realizing that the "winners" are theoretically arguing a different action (breach) than those just seeking refunds (rescission).
FWIW, most of the people are arguing past one another without realizing that the "winners" are theoretically arguing a different action (breach) than those just seeking refunds (rescission).
BassNBrew
Footballguy
Hypothetically I place a $100 legal wager at the Stardust on the Raiders to win the Super Bowl at 1000/1. I pay for this wager with my Uber Elite Platinum card. On December 1st the Stardust announces they won't have the funds to cover their paying their outstanding wagers going forward. On February 1 the Raiders win the Super Bowl. The Stardust has assets and files for bankruptcy.
1. Does the date the bankruptcy is filed impact me?
2. When the court determines how much each creditor gets will they look at refunding (a percentage of) all the outstanding contacts at conception or will they look at the outcome of the contracts at completion.
3. I bought an insurance policy that ends up protecting my original wager basis if the Stardust goes out of business and collect on that. Does that matter to the court?
Assuming this is the first time something like this has happened, does the court strongly lean towards looking to other remotely similar cases to determine a path of action, does the court chart new ground without regard to remotely similar cases, or is it a coin flip based on the court?
BassNBrew
Footballguy
Very well worded. In other instances does the court lean towards breach or recission?
Instinctive
Footballguy
I am not a lawyer (yet).
ETA: Surely someone who knows will correct me. Would be nice to learn more of this if I have it wrong
3. Subrogation probably matters here, as do the laws of the place the lawsuit is in. Likely, if you have insurance that protected you, you're not filing a suit. But the insurance company can file a suit "on your behalf" to get their money from the other party. I think.
Again, not yet a lawyer: They are different causes of action. A court doesn't lean to one or another, it would evaluate each on the merits leading to such cause of action. They're just different.
ETA: Surely someone who knows will correct me. Would be nice to learn more of this if I have it wrong
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Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
Courts don't "lean" any way. Courts decide individual cases. The breach cases and the rescission cases have no bearing on one another. It's not one or another.
You seem to think that all breach and rescission claims are going to be presented to the bankruptcy court. I'm not a bankruptcy guy, but that's not how I understand it to work. You'd need a judgment to be a creditor in the first place. The courts granting judgments don't give a #### whether the judgment will ever be satisfied.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
1 yes
2 the court doesn't do anything without the trustee acting first to protect the estate then creditors of a certain class.
3 the insurance company would control you and your potential claim.
There is a ton of precedent. It's all fact specific and based on things you didn't give me to work with. But a casino would have secured creditors. They and the government would take before you as an unsecured creditor.
How the casino is run from the moment it files depends on a million different things.
2 the court doesn't do anything without the trustee acting first to protect the estate then creditors of a certain class.
3 the insurance company would control you and your potential claim.
There is a ton of precedent. It's all fact specific and based on things you didn't give me to work with. But a casino would have secured creditors. They and the government would take before you as an unsecured creditor.
How the casino is run from the moment it files depends on a million different things.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
You don't need a judgment to be a creditor. You need a valid claim.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
The bankruptcy court doesn't just start litigating claims. If a creditor wants to argue breach or recission they have to first file a valid claim and an adversary proceeding. Once the adversary proceeding is filed it is treated like a normal lawsuit but it occurs within the confines of the bankruptcy petition. The claim would first have to survive the dischargibility of the debt complained of. Breach of contract claims are dischargeable. Fraud judgments are not. For the most part. Hypothetically.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Another quick point - the casino having "assets." That's a very big assumption. And it's not always clear when the petition is filed if that is true or not.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
You think correctly for the most part. If your studies lead you to consider looking at bankruptcy law you certainly seem to have the ability to be very very good at it. IT is a very technical field when dealing with high end complicated matters and the litigators make a fortune.
Gawain
Footballguy
I took bankruptcy from the guy linked below. He was a great teacher (I was a mediocre student) and was one of the leading authorities on bankruptcy.
http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/spotlights/Remembering-a-Legal-Pioneer-Theodore-Eisenberg.cfm/
ETA: I hadn't realized he died until now.
http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/spotlights/Remembering-a-Legal-Pioneer-Theodore-Eisenberg.cfm/
ETA: I hadn't realized he died until now.
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Instinctive
Footballguy
I took contracts with a professor known for his bankruptcy work as well. I am kind of intrigued by it, but will probably end up trying to take a few venture capital courses, given Stanford's strength there.
ETA: I have no idea if I am a good law student or not yet. Haha.
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CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Has a bk been filed? Is that confirmed? Is it a corporate filing? It seems unlikely. There's no reason to wade into that morass until someone can confirm a filing was made. At that time, we can all go on pacer and answer questions based on facts rather than spec.
Edit - 2 yr clerkship for a bk judge followed by 14 years of primarily chap 11 practice.
Edit - 2 yr clerkship for a bk judge followed by 14 years of primarily chap 11 practice.
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Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
BassNBrew
Footballguy
It has not per another poster that did a search. Regardless, it's an interesting subject to me.
Gawain
Footballguy
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
I hate 11's. Just got a unclassified unsecured plan voting petition for a client with a high 6 figure claim and the plan has my client getting 4% at the moment subject to the voting of the class and continuing operating expenses. Cost my client more to hire me at the end of the day.
Bankruptcy is a cutthroat field right now. Filings are trending downward big time and have been for several years. Lots of competition for the remainder of the pie. These things are of course cyclical but it's been down for long enough that some big firms are throwing off their BR practices.
-fish-
Footballguy
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Haven't seen that much in my practice, but yeah it's cyclical. The money these firms makes though on a large 11 or complicated 13 is eye-popping sometimes.
Zow
Footballguy
I'll wait until he is a 3L gauge his ability to develop a stable of doe-eyed 1Ls to determine just how good of a law student he is.
Aerial Assault
Footballguy
No, actually I know exactly what is wrong with the assumptions and conclusions being made in that thread. And, like others, I'm not going to correct it because it's not ethical or particularly intelligent to do so. Not sure how many times this has to be pointed out.Definitely. I had a friend who worked on the United bankruptcy for Kirkland & Ellis. According to this article Kirkland made $80MM.
Instinctive
Footballguy
Close to even. If you add in basketball, those two activities together probably outweigh studying.
Well, define studying. Is skimming the reading before class included? Or is studying only going back over notes, making an outline, reading over outlines, taking practice exams, etc? If I'm not allowed to count just doing the reading for class then the ratio changes quite a bit.
P.S. for Woz: I have a long-term significant other who lives with me.
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I'd say it's any work outside of class. The more you prepare before class the less you have to do preparing for finals. I worked 4 years between undergrad and law school. I treated law school like a job--9-5 M-F. When I got to finals I didn't change my M.O. I had a bunch of friends who played a lot during the semester and freaked out for finals.
Instinctive
Footballguy
I probably lean more to studying then, as I think I freaked out less than 178 of the other 179 1Ls during finals week. The funniest part is that the people with work experience already freak out the most. For me, it was yet another finals week...sure it was harder stuff, but at the heart of it all, a test is a test.
M-W I wake up around 6:30, eat and such, bike over to school, and spend around an hour doing reading for pre-lunch classes. Then over lunch I read for the afternoon class 30-45 minutes probably. I get home after class, chill a bit with girlfriend and ask her how her day went, we make dinner together and watch the Mavs if they're playing, then some nights I do LRW stuff and most others play basketball or go out with girlfriend/other couple(s).
Thursday, same except never doing LRW stuff and Bar Review + pregaming for bar review starts right after dinner. Fridays are always different, Saturdays are no-school day unless a brief is due, and Sunday afternoons are typically setting up what reading to do for week.
Comparatively, there are a few people I know who get to campus and go to the library around same time as me, but then stayed until 11:00 every single weeknight, leaving only for dinner. Then everyone in between that and what I do, and then a few people who I'd bet do significantly less than I do (read only a previous outline and only for panel days, never make their own outline, only write one draft of each brief or memo). I think I'm somewhere between 30-50th percentile of time spent studying, but 80th or so in use of time studying. There are definitely some who outwork me, but I generally work until I feel I understand the material and then stop. That means I spent a lot more time on crim and civpro and not so much on torts. I'm not sure if that's how everyone approaches it, but it makes the most sense to me.
I imagine if we had real grades and a real curve I would work much harder at "being the best" at everything, but our system is: 1/3 gets an "Honors," everyone else usually passes. I'd bet 6/180 people get one "restricted credit" and nobody fails anything. With that system, I'm going to do my best but not sacrifice my life day in and day out for this. If I don't get something, I work at it until I do. Otherwise...I feel like I learn and test better when I'm well rested and not stressed out. Some people are so stressed all the time I don't understand how they can focus on anything.
ETA: That can count as my "a day in the life of an SLS student in 2014" post for everyone to reminisce about what their 1L year was like!
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Zow
Footballguy
Todd Andrews
Footballguy
First day of law school, my Civ Pro I professor was a very smart Jesuit who was wearing his collar (his name was inside my giant scary Civ Pro textbook). He asked everyone who was in a relationship, married or dating, and about half the hands in the class went up. He said "well, at least half of those relationships will end over the next three years." As we sat there processing that and looking around a little, he smiled and said, "but the good news is I do weddings!"
Instinctive
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
I am a big proponent of having a significant other during law school. If she makes it through that with you, and then the year or two while you figure out what kind of lawyer you'll be, you two will be like steel.Anything's possibleOh really? I said the same thing as a 1L
-fish-
Footballguy
and for years after that. got your own cell phone yet?Oh really? I said the same thing as a 1L
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Skadden had Kmart going in Chicago about the same time. That was a great time to be a chap 11 lawyer in Chicago. The debtor side firms obviously made huge fees, but those cases (plus Conseco and a few other mega cases) fed the entire Chicago bankruptcy bar for about 5 years.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Merry Christmas.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Ah, end of year ICLE. How I love thee. Let me count the ways..
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... yeah, got nothing.
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... yeah, got nothing.
Thorn
Footballguy
Going on our fourth attempt to fill our associate position in less than a year. First guy lasted six months, decided he didn't want to be in private practice, took a job with the state. Second one lasted about two months, found a job back home that would forgive a percentage of her $175,000 school debt as a perk. That's right, $175,000. Third one considered our offer for a week then decided he wanted to do criminal law so would wait for another offer. Course we asked in the interview why the jump to our real estate/corporate/banking focus from criminal and he said he was primed and excited for a change. Anywho, #4 just accepted our offer for a start date in February.
-fish-
Footballguy
Prepping for a summary judgment hearing tomorrow. 90% chance I'm going to lose, even though I shouldn't, because the judge is dense and doesn't understand our state's statutory scheme. In motions leading up to this has repeatedly agreed with me during oral argument, pointed out that the other side lacks authority, and then rules in their favor because ultimately everything we're arguing was the result of another judge in the same county issuing an order that never should have been issued, but this guy doesn't want to say his buddy was wrong.
My client won't spend the money to appeal.
That was quite the run-on sentence, but I'm venting here so I don't care.
My client won't spend the money to appeal.
That was quite the run-on sentence, but I'm venting here so I don't care.
Zow
Footballguy
Begin a week-long trial with decades at stake next Tuesday. Prepped and ready to go. However, spending Friday-Monday doing a golf/NFL betting weekend in Vegas with college buddies that's been planned for months.
Anybody up to date on Strickland and its progeny - specifically, anything on sleeping lawyers?*
* I'm kidding.
Anybody up to date on Strickland and its progeny - specifically, anything on sleeping lawyers?*
* I'm kidding.
Zow
Footballguy
I do... but my wife happens to be on the same plan.and for years after that. got your own cell phone yet?Oh really? I said the same thing as a 1L
El Floppo
Footballguy
hi lawyers.
can you guys let me know how you'd read/interpret the following statement from a client's alteration agreement:
all Work shall be completed within an aggregate of 180 days with credit for days that the building has designated as
holidays and when workmen are not allowed in the Building; from the date of commencement of
the Work, or such other period as the Corporation, in writing, designates (the “Completion
Date”).
I see "aggregate" used with "credit for days that the building has designated as holidays and when workmen are not allowed in the building" (fer-instance: weekends) as meaning 180 WORK days. But I have a feeling it's 180 calendar days.
thoughts? would like a gameplan before talking to management.
eta: tia- lawyers are the best!!!!
can you guys let me know how you'd read/interpret the following statement from a client's alteration agreement:
all Work shall be completed within an aggregate of 180 days with credit for days that the building has designated as
holidays and when workmen are not allowed in the Building; from the date of commencement of
the Work, or such other period as the Corporation, in writing, designates (the “Completion
Date”).
I see "aggregate" used with "credit for days that the building has designated as holidays and when workmen are not allowed in the building" (fer-instance: weekends) as meaning 180 WORK days. But I have a feeling it's 180 calendar days.
thoughts? would like a gameplan before talking to management.
eta: tia- lawyers are the best!!!!
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El Floppo
Footballguy
ok... so interpretate.Sounds like the lawyer that wrote that, purposely left it up for interpretation.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
I would assume "days" = calendar days. The "with credit for ..." part means additional days added, beyond the 180, for each holiday and day when workers are not allowed in.
Don Quixote
Footballguy
Are workmen allowed in the building on weekends?
El Floppo
Footballguy
krista4
Footballguy
1. Whoever wrote that should be shot, execution-style. No, wait--that's too kind. Tortured, and then shot in front of his/her family.
2. Is there a defined term "Business Days" or the like in the agreement? Usually there would be something like that, with the definition being essentially days when banks are open, and where the defined term is not used, calendar days would be implied.
In absence of anything more, I agree with Cletius's interpretation. It's the only way the word "aggregate" makes any sense.
2. Is there a defined term "Business Days" or the like in the agreement? Usually there would be something like that, with the definition being essentially days when banks are open, and where the defined term is not used, calendar days would be implied.
In absence of anything more, I agree with Cletius's interpretation. It's the only way the word "aggregate" makes any sense.
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