QB Jameis Winston, NO (4 Viewers)

cstu said:

Dr. Octopus said:

cstu said:

If this was only about money for her she wouldn't be suing FSU as well.

You guys are in complete denial.

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That's certainly not true. Winston has deep pockets. FSU has deeper pockets.

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Regardless of the amount of money FSU has, she's going to have a much more difficult time proving FSU violated her Title IX rights.

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Stealthycat said:

liability means responsibility means guilt

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Dr. Octopus said:

cstu said:

Dr. Octopus said:

cstu said:

If this was only about money for her she wouldn't be suing FSU as well.

You guys are in complete denial.

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That's certainly not true. Winston has deep pockets. FSU has deeper pockets.

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Regardless of the amount of money FSU has, she's going to have a much more difficult time proving FSU violated her Title IX rights.

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How does that make what you originally said true?

Even if she has a tougher burden in an action against FSU, the ultimate goal could still be to force a settlement.

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davearm said:

Capella said:

davearm said:

Capella said:

cstu said:

Exactly. I don't care how well Winston played in the 2nd half or how much he throws with anticipation - the evidence points to him being a rapist.

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Actually if the evidence pointed that way he would have been charged and then convicted of the crime. Neither of those happened.Not even a charge.

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You should print this out, take it to your law school, and ask for your money back.

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No I'm pretty sure that's how it works in the real world. Message board law doesn't apply.

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In the real world, prosecutors seek convictions when they think they can get convictions.

You're not much of an attorney if you think no charge = no evidence.

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B-Deep said:

I expected everyone in here to be the absolute best nfl talent evaluates possible, the fact that we have so many legal experts, sexual assault experts, and people who can down right see the future has come as quite a surprise

If you KNOW what happened with Jameis and his accused you are a fool, because you do not and cannot know, you can simply have an opinion based on what you have read.

if anyone here has interviewed him, the accuser, the cops, and any other witnesses let me know and I'll pm you an apology and say your opinion at least seems based on some facts

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Capella said:

Stealthycat said:

liability means responsibility means guilt

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No it really doesn't.

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B-Deep said:

I expected everyone in here to be the absolute best nfl talent evaluates possible, the fact that we have so many legal experts, sexual assault experts, and people who can down right see the future has come as quite a surprise

If you KNOW what happened with Jameis and his accused you are a fool, because you do not and cannot know, you can simply have an opinion based on what you have read.

if anyone here has interviewed him, the accuser, the cops, and any other witnesses let me know and I'll pm you an apology and say your opinion at least seems based on some facts

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cstu said:

Capella said:

Stealthycat said:

liability means responsibility means guilt

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No it really doesn't.

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We have to be careful about throwing around legal terms around here with Johnnie Cochran on the case.

Guilty - in criminal court the crime must be proven "beyond a reasonable doubt".

Liable - in civil court the crime must be proven more likely than not (i.e. 51% chance defendant is guilty of the crime).

Correct enough for you, Johnnie?

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Capella said:

davearm said:

Capella said:

davearm said:

Capella said:

cstu said:

Exactly. I don't care how well Winston played in the 2nd half or how much he throws with anticipation - the evidence points to him being a rapist.

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Actually if the evidence pointed that way he would have been charged and then convicted of the crime. Neither of those happened.Not even a charge.

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You should print this out, take it to your law school, and ask for your money back.

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No I'm pretty sure that's how it works in the real world. Message board law doesn't apply.

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In the real world, prosecutors seek convictions when they think they can get convictions.

You're not much of an attorney if you think no charge = no evidence.

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I didn't say that. You did.

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davearm said:

The civil court doesn't deal with crimes.

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werdnoynek said:

Amen.

I like to act like I know what I'm saying because it just seem like such a good time.

Look at how much fun cstu is having.

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Sabertooth said:

I get the sense the Capella doesn't care if he did it or not.

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cstu said:

Capella said:

Stealthycat said:

liability means responsibility means guilt

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No it really doesn't.

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We have to be careful about throwing around legal terms around here with Johnnie Cochran on the case.

Guilty - in criminal court the liability must be proven "beyond a reasonable doubt".

Liable - in civil court the crime must be proven more likely than not (i.e. 51% chance defendant is liable).

Correct enough for you, Johnnie?

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Sabertooth said:

I get the sense the Capella doesn't care if he did it or not.

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Capella said:

Sabertooth said:

I get the sense the Capella doesn't care if he did it or not.

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I've said multiple times that if I thought he was really a rapist I wouldn't root for him.

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Capella said:

Sabertooth said:

I get the sense the Capella doesn't care if he did it or not.

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I've said multiple times that if I thought he was really a rapist I wouldn't root for him.

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Capella said:

You don't have to be Johnnie Cochran to know the difference between criminal guilt and civil liability. You don't really have to be anything more than a cat.

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BoltNlava said:

If an NFL team takes Winston 1st overall:

It shows that talent trumps everything

The lessons of those in jail, Peterson, Ray Rice etc...are not what is important.

All the changes (for good?) made by the NFL owners and players are for show.

Guilty or not it's not a good look. That should be enough.

This is opinion btw's not gospel..I know that and you should too.

Hat's off to those championing either side. It is a culture of checks and balances after all, no?

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Grahamburn said:

BoltNlava said:

If an NFL team takes Winston 1st overall:

It shows that talent trumps everything

The lessons of those in jail, Peterson, Ray Rice etc...are not what is important.

All the changes (for good?) made by the NFL owners and players are for show.

Guilty or not it's not a good look. That should be enough.

This is opinion btw's not gospel..I know that and you should too.

Hat's off to those championing either side. It is a culture of checks and balances after all, no?

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Does it really show that? It isn't mandatory for the Bucs to draft Winston. There's very clearly another option.

Consider all the thoughts, information, vetting of ideas, and concerns outlined in just this thread and multiply by a large arbitrary number. That's the amount of research and thought the Bucs are putting into this pick.

They've hired private investigators and conducted countless interviews. They've probably had someone follow him around documenting his every move.

If the Tampa Bay Buccaneers are comfortable risking millions of dollars and making Jameis Winston the face of their franchise maybe we should give him the benefit of the doubt.

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jurb26 said:

I request a title change one day out from the draft.

Use your imagination.

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bigmarc27 said:

Grahamburn said:

BoltNlava said:

If an NFL team takes Winston 1st overall:

It shows that talent trumps everything

The lessons of those in jail, Peterson, Ray Rice etc...are not what is important.

All the changes (for good?) made by the NFL owners and players are for show.

Guilty or not it's not a good look. That should be enough.

This is opinion btw's not gospel..I know that and you should too.

Hat's off to those championing either side. It is a culture of checks and balances after all, no?

Click to expand...

Does it really show that? It isn't mandatory for the Bucs to draft Winston. There's very clearly another option.

Consider all the thoughts, information, vetting of ideas, and concerns outlined in just this thread and multiply by a large arbitrary number. That's the amount of research and thought the Bucs are putting into this pick.

They've hired private investigators and conducted countless interviews. They've probably had someone follow him around documenting his every move.

If the Tampa Bay Buccaneers are comfortable risking millions of dollars and making Jameis Winston the face of their franchise maybe we should give him the benefit of the doubt.

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I do think Tampa being the closest NFL team in proximity of FSU helps Winston's case at #1. In spite of what you believe, Jameis would be a hard sell to people in other parts of the country as the face of edge franchise.

Much in the same way that Roethlisberger's indiscretions are overlooked and over explained in Pittsburgh, the same thing is done here by FSU and TB fans. I'm not saying he's not talented, but you're crazy or delusional if you dismiss the red flags.

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Grahamburn said:

bigmarc27 said:

Grahamburn said:

BoltNlava said:

If an NFL team takes Winston 1st overall:

It shows that talent trumps everything

The lessons of those in jail, Peterson, Ray Rice etc...are not what is important.

All the changes (for good?) made by the NFL owners and players are for show.

Guilty or not it's not a good look. That should be enough.

This is opinion btw's not gospel..I know that and you should too.

Hat's off to those championing either side. It is a culture of checks and balances after all, no?

Click to expand...

Does it really show that? It isn't mandatory for the Bucs to draft Winston. There's very clearly another option.

Consider all the thoughts, information, vetting of ideas, and concerns outlined in just this thread and multiply by a large arbitrary number. That's the amount of research and thought the Bucs are putting into this pick.

They've hired private investigators and conducted countless interviews. They've probably had someone follow him around documenting his every move.

If the Tampa Bay Buccaneers are comfortable risking millions of dollars and making Jameis Winston the face of their franchise maybe we should give him the benefit of the doubt.

Click to expand...

I do think Tampa being the closest NFL team in proximity of FSU helps Winston's case at #1. In spite of what you believe, Jameis would be a hard sell to people in other parts of the country as the face of edge franchise.

Much in the same way that Roethlisberger's indiscretions are overlooked and over explained in Pittsburgh, the same thing is done here by FSU and TB fans. I'm not saying he's not talented, but you're crazy or delusional if you dismiss the red flags.

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The Bucs aren't locked in to talking Winston though. The Steelers had no choice.

If the Bucs do end up taking him it's because they see what people outside the organization call "red flags" as being completely overblown by the media. They aren't dismissing them. I'm sure they've done everything in their power to investigate any and all of Winston's indiscretions.

He did some dumb things and made some immature mistakes. If he's learned from them and Tampa is convinced of that then why would they expect any issues in the future?

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Grahamburn said:

He did some dumb things and made some immature mistakes. If he's learned from them and Tampa is convinced of that then why would they expect any issues in the future?

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bigmarc27 said:

Grahamburn said:

He did some dumb things and made some immature mistakes. If he's learned from them and Tampa is convinced of that then why would they expect any issues in the future?

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There is a pattern of bad decisions being made. I'm not so sure that they don't expect him to make another stupid error in judgement so much as it's a calculated risk they're willing to take.

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Grahamburn said:

The Bucs aren't locked in to talking Winston though. The Steelers had no choice.

If the Bucs do end up taking him it's because they see what people outside the organization call "red flags" as being completely overblown by the media. They aren't dismissing them. I'm sure they've done everything in their power to investigate any and all of Winston's indiscretions.

He did some dumb things and made some immature mistakes. If he's learned from them and Tampa is convinced of that then why would they expect any issues in the future?

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The Inadequate Vetting Of Jameis WinstonThe NFL keeps pushing its “No More” message, but not interviewing the presumptive No. 1 overall pick’s rape accuser suggests more of the same.

By the end of ESPN’s exhaustive coverage of the first round of the NFL Draft on Thursday night, there’s one name that you’re sure to be sick of hearing: Jameis Winston.

Winston won’t be in Chicago for the festivities, but that won’t keep the pundits from talking about him. You’ll hear about Jameis Winston, the Heisman trophy winner from Florida State University; Jameis Winston, the quarterback with the strong arm and NFL MVP potential; Jameis Winston, the off-the-field issue guy, even though he possesses enough talent to propel him to NFL stardom.

Then, once the Draft finally kicks off, it’s all but certain that you’ll hear Roger Goodell say, “With the first pick of the 2015 NFL draft, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers select … Jameis Winston.”

Sadly, there’s one name you’re not likely to hear on Thursday: Erica Kinsman.

There will be a lot of allusions to Kinsman during the broadcast, through veiled phrases such as “off-field troubles,” “mistakes,” or “immaturity.” But Kinsman is much more than that — she’s a 20-year-old former Florida State student who has accused Winston of “sexual battery, assault, false imprisonment, and intentional infliction of emotional distress arising out of forcible rape.”

Kinsman and her allegations are the reason that Winston has become one of the most thoroughly-vetted draft prospects in NFL history. After all, in this post-Ray Rice era of the NFL, teams simply can’t be too careful. These days, the league actually takes sexual assault and domestic violence allegations seriously, and a player’s character is considered alongside his talent. (Probably. Maybe.)

(AP)

There’s just one little problem with that notion: According to Kinsman’s lawyer, nobody from the NFL or the Buccaneers has contacted Kinsman to get her version of the events of December 7, 2012.

While it’s important to note that Winston was not criminally charged and still maintains that the sexual act was consensual, with what we know about how rare false rape allegations are and how hard it is for victims to get justice in the criminal justice system, it seems unfathomable that nobody bothered to get Kinsman’s side of the story face-to-face before drafting the man that they hope to be the face of their franchise for years to come.

In the P.R. push in the lead-up to the draft — while the Bucs have tried to assure their fanbase that drafting Winston is the right move — there has been endless spin about how much due diligence has been done on Winston. It’s been reported that the Bucs have talked to friends, family, high-school and college coaches, and the state attorney while thoroughly investigating all of the quarterback’s relationships, from childhood onward.

“We’ve talked to a lot of people. ‘A lot’ is probably not a big enough word,” Jason Licht, the general manager of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, told The Tampa Tribune. “We are not going to talk about the process. All I’ll tell you is that the Glazer family, the head coach, the general manager, our staffs, we all couldn’t feel more confident about the process we have gone through.”

But how in the world could that be true, when the team hasn’t even spoken with Kinsman? How can anyone rationalize leaving the woman who has accused Winston of rape, whose story has not changed in two years, and who has just filed a civil suit against him, out of the vetting process entirely?

Up until this winter, Kinsman was not a public figure. As many alleged rape victims do, she opted to keep her name out of the press and did not speak publicly on the matter for two years after the alleged incident. Over that period, she had to deal with a botched investigation by the Tallahassee Police Department, a press conference where journalists and state attorney Willie Meggs literally laughed while discussing her allegations, and so much cruelty and pushback from her fellow Florida State students that she dropped out of school.

But Kinsman broke her anonymity when she participated in The Hunting Ground, the documentary that came out this spring addressing the epidemic of sexual assault on college campuses and how poorly most cases are handled by America’s universities.

In her segment, Kinsman discusses the events of the night in question, where she met Winston (without knowing who he was) at a club, took a shot she believes to have been spiked and ended up back at his room, where she says he proceeded to rape her.

“He was on top of me and I couldn’t really breathe,” she said in the film, as reported by Marissa Payne of The Washington Post. “He pushed his hand over my face and pushed my face to the floor.”

Meggs, the attorney who laughed at Kinsman’s allegations at the start of the investigation, changed his tone when interviewed for the film. “I think I did not have sufficient evidence to prove that he sexually assaulted her against her will,” he said. “I think things that happened there that night were not good.”

Typically, rape is hard to prove because of a lack of witnesses and the tendency for incidents to turn into “he-said, she-said” wars of allegation. The Buccanneers have spent plenty of time with Winston, and they like what they see. That makes sense — he is clearly a charming man and talented player who seems to work hard on his craft. Winston has no doubt proclaimed his innocence to them and painted himself as the victim. “The only thing as vicious as rape is falsely accusing someone of rape,” he said in a detailed statement denying the allegations in December.

But until the Buccaneers sit down with Kinsman, they have not done their due diligence.

“The most important reason we know Erica is credible is that when you sit down and speak with her one on one the overwhelming conclusion you come away with is that she is telling the truth,” Kirby ****, the director of The Hunting Ground, told Jenny Vrentas of The MMQB.

It’s far too easy to dismiss allegations when they’re only on paper. The voices of sexually and physically abused women have been buried for too long, and by failing to even hear Kinsman out, the Bucs and the NFL, if only tacitly, are contributing to a longstanding culture of silence.

Of course, this is all far from surprising. This is a league that has historically never reached out to the alleged victims of its players. This is a league that just last year interviewed Janay Rice alongside Ray Rice, her abuser, and considered that a sufficient investigation of the subject.

Despite all of the “No More” chatter, the NFL is still a league that hears what it wants to hear. And it’s crystal clear that it doesn’t want to hear what Kinsman has to say.

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Paul Pabst ‏@PaulPabst 2h2 hours ago

"If I had to put my finger on the player that is the most overrated, I'd go with Jameis Winston." Joel Klatt, FOX.

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werdnoynek said:

Why would the NFL need to contact Kinsman - an accuser? What is she going to tell them that she hasn't told the police, the reporters, the media?

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Cornwell shared a story from the meeting at the Moorad Sports Law Journal Symposium.

He said at one point Winston pointed to a replica of the Lombardi Trophy and told Goodell he plans on winning one.

Goodell pointed to the Walter Payton Man of the Year Trophy. "I'd prefer if you get one of those," Goodell said.

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cstu said:

Cornwell shared a story from the meeting at the Moorad Sports Law Journal Symposium.

He said at one point Winston pointed to a replica of the Lombardi Trophy and told Goodell he plans on winning one.

Goodell pointed to the Walter Payton Man of the Year Trophy. "I'd prefer if you get one of those," Goodell said.

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Said Licht, "It's hard to find people who have been around him who will say anything negative, besides that he's immature. So far, I'm comfortable with his background. I think the perception is different from the reality."

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Frostillicus said:

cstu said:

Cornwell shared a story from the meeting at the Moorad Sports Law Journal Symposium.

He said at one point Winston pointed to a replica of the Lombardi Trophy and told Goodell he plans on winning one.

Goodell pointed to the Walter Payton Man of the Year Trophy. "I'd prefer if you get one of those," Goodell said.

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Serious question: how much time do you spend searching for Jameis Winston stories every day?

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cstu said:

Frostillicus said:

cstu said:

Cornwell shared a story from the meeting at the Moorad Sports Law Journal Symposium.

He said at one point Winston pointed to a replica of the Lombardi Trophy and told Goodell he plans on winning one.

Goodell pointed to the Walter Payton Man of the Year Trophy. "I'd prefer if you get one of those," Goodell said.

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Serious question: how much time do you spend searching for Jameis Winston stories every day?

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220...221, whatever it takes.

ETA: Serious answer? It's all on Twitter.

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Grahamburn said:

I love the false imprisonment part. Didn't he drive her home on his moped?

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lod01 said:

Grahamburn said:

The Bucs aren't locked in to talking Winston though. The Steelers had no choice.

If the Bucs do end up taking him it's because they see what people outside the organization call "red flags" as being completely overblown by the media. They aren't dismissing them. I'm sure they've done everything in their power to investigate any and all of Winston's indiscretions.

He did some dumb things and made some immature mistakes. If he's learned from them and Tampa is convinced of that then why would they expect any issues in the future?

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They can't help that they are stupid and have no business running (GM) or coaching (HC) an NFL team.

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Frostillicus said:

Not an FSU fan. Not a Tampa fan. Not a Winston fan or non-fan. The anti-Winston people are coming off as way more insane than the pro-Winston people. Way more. Love this thread.

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lod01 said:

Frostillicus said:

Not an FSU fan. Not a Tampa fan. Not a Winston fan or non-fan. The anti-Winston people are coming off as way more insane than the pro-Winston people. Way more. Love this thread.

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cstu is going full bore. I don't get cranked up until week one. That's when you will see me dominate this thread like I did in the David Carr thread, the Tim Tebow thread and the Vince Young thread.I would have dominated the J-Fat Russell thread but he didn't last long enough to even get off the ground.

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Capella said:

lod01 said:

Frostillicus said:

Not an FSU fan. Not a Tampa fan. Not a Winston fan or non-fan. The anti-Winston people are coming off as way more insane than the pro-Winston people. Way more. Love this thread.

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cstu is going full bore. I don't get cranked up until week one. That's when you will see me dominate this thread like I did in the David Carr thread, the Tim Tebow thread and the Vince Young thread.I would have dominated the J-Fat Russell thread but he didn't last long enough to even get off the ground.

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Do you put these factoids on your resume?

(You probably don't work)

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cstu said:

Capella said:

lod01 said:

Frostillicus said:

Not an FSU fan. Not a Tampa fan. Not a Winston fan or non-fan. The anti-Winston people are coming off as way more insane than the pro-Winston people. Way more. Love this thread.

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cstu is going full bore. I don't get cranked up until week one. That's when you will see me dominate this thread like I did in the David Carr thread, the Tim Tebow thread and the Vince Young thread.I would have dominated the J-Fat Russell thread but he didn't last long enough to even get off the ground.

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Do you put these factoids on your resume?

(You probably don't work)

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As usual that's all you got.

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