Godsbrother
Footballguy
I don't think this is correct. He would have been a free agent had he not been suspended last year. I am 99% sure he is signed through the 2018 season and will not be a free agent until 2019.
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WR Martavis Bryant (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Faust
- Start date
Flint Fireballs!
Footballguy
Then that changes my opinion. Everything comes down to whether or not he's traded this season if you are correct, sir.
Flint Fireballs!
Footballguy
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/wide-receiver/
This list indicates that Bryant is a free agent in 2018, but they could be misinformed on the basis of what you just shared.
This list indicates that Bryant is a free agent in 2018, but they could be misinformed on the basis of what you just shared.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
It has been widely talked about on Pittsburgh local sports radio since he was suspended last year. Here is one link that says the same
The Frankman
Footballguy
EDIT: nvm it was posted abbove
Oh boy it just got toxic again... to clarify he's handling it poorly but he's not wrong. I checked a PFF article (might've been Football Outsiders, need to find the link) checking out Martavis Bryant's issues, and they said although he has lost a bit of explosion from two years ago, the put more blame on Ben and the offensive gameplan than Bryant actually regressing. Bottom line, this offense has moved past Martavis to the point where if you're not Le'Veon Bell or Antonio Brown, you don't get regular work. What's he's actually complaining about is the fact that the few high-percentage routes he used to run have been taken over by Smith-Schucter and now Eli Rogers. Steelers are using him much differently than 2 years ago, and he didn't expect that coming into this year.
Oh boy it just got toxic again... to clarify he's handling it poorly but he's not wrong. I checked a PFF article (might've been Football Outsiders, need to find the link) checking out Martavis Bryant's issues, and they said although he has lost a bit of explosion from two years ago, the put more blame on Ben and the offensive gameplan than Bryant actually regressing. Bottom line, this offense has moved past Martavis to the point where if you're not Le'Veon Bell or Antonio Brown, you don't get regular work. What's he's actually complaining about is the fact that the few high-percentage routes he used to run have been taken over by Smith-Schucter and now Eli Rogers. Steelers are using him much differently than 2 years ago, and he didn't expect that coming into this year.
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fruity pebbles
Footballguy
Always a good look when you complain after wins.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Well that's what happens when you screw your team over.
The Steelers are in the business of winning football games. If Bryant wants more targets he is going to have to prove it on the practice field and whatever opportunities he is presented with during the games. The Steelers tried one long pass last night which was overthrown but also gave him a scoring chance in the red zone where he gained 3 yards
Franknbeans
Footballguy
and to think I was desperately trying to trade for him the first month of the season.
The Frankman
Footballguy
Again, he's handling it poorly (seemed like he knee-jerked and then realized he made a mistake). However, like I mentioned he's basically the same player and the Steelers had to think so by talking him up ad nauseum in the preseason. This isn't a prove-it situation outside of not toking up; it's a "offense has moved on situation" where Ben isn't giving Bryant the Emmanuel Sanders treatment anymore. Like I kinda get it from his perspective in that one sense; why fill his head with a perceived role and then not come close to doing it? If they came out from the start and said "He won't have the same touches" or "He's going to have to earn his spot back" the Steelers may not be in this situation now. Or they might be in it earlier...
EDIT: One long overthrown Ben pass isn't remotely close to his usage in 2015, come on now. He usually got 3 overthrown Ben passes and managed to snag 1 of them.
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Godsbrother
Footballguy
Well he did drop one that was right in his hands a few weeks agoAgain, he's handling it poorly (seemed like he knee-jerked and then realized he made a mistake). However, like I mentioned he's basically the same player and the Steelers had to think so by talking him up ad nauseum in the preseason. This isn't a prove-it situation outside of not toking up; it's a "offense has moved on situation" where Ben isn't giving Bryant the Emmanuel Sanders treatment anymore. Like I kinda get it from that perspective; why fill his head with a perce
EDIT: One long overthrown Ben pass isn't remotely close to his usage in 2015, come on now. He usually gets 3 overthrown Ben passes and manages to snag 1 of them.
However the bottom line is that the Steelers offense isn't the same as it was back in 2015. Back then it was Ben's offense but by mid last season it became LeVeon Bell's offense. The Steelers rode on Bell's back last season and through the playoffs. Todd Haley seemed to forget that earlier this season but the bottom line is the Steelers win when Bell has 30+ touches a game.
The only receiver getting a consistent amount of targets is AB and the other receivers need to accept that. The Steelers are not going to succeed if Ben has to throw it 40 times. Bryant needs to come to grips with that and enjoy the win. He'll eventually get more opportunities if he stays focused but it is unlikely he'll get more than 5 or 6 targets on a consistent basis. Sorry if he doesn't like it...
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
He's not a free agent at the end of the season. Thanks to his Cheech & Chong routine getting him suspended for a year, he's still on his rookie deal through the end of NEXT season.
They're not dumping him for a 7th rounder.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
He's not getting more targets because he isn't doing anything when he gets them. Re-watch the first offensive snap of the Chicago game, he had 2 yards on the defender, Ben put it in his hands, and it went right through them. He's gotten a number of opportunities on screens and reverses as well and he's been tentative, hasn't had the holes, and goes down on first contact. He's also not getting consistent separation from defenders. If he gets open and makes plays when the ball comes to him, it will come to him more - it's really that simple.Again, he's handling it poorly (seemed like he knee-jerked and then realized he made a mistake). However, like I mentioned he's basically the same player and the Steelers had to think so by talking him up ad nauseum in the preseason. This isn't a prove-it situation outside of not toking up; it's a "offense has moved on situation" where Ben isn't giving Bryant the Emmanuel Sanders treatment anymore. Like I kinda get it from his perspective in that one sense; why fill his head with a perceived role and then not come close to doing it? If they came out from the start and said "He won't have the same touches" or "He's going to have to earn his spot back" the Steelers may not be in this situation now. Or they might be in it earlier...
EDIT: One long overthrown Ben pass isn't remotely close to his usage in 2015, come on now. He usually got 3 overthrown Ben passes and managed to snag 1 of them.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
Eli Rogers is getting even fewer targets than Martavis. JuJu is getting more because he gets open and catches the ball. They're not punishing Martavis, he just has to make more of the plays he gets and then he'll get more.
packersfan
Footballguy
I think this is debatable. Last week he turned a nothing play into a 7-yard gain all on his own. Then he took a slant for 20 yards showing his acceleration in the open field. Two targets, two strong plays after the catch. The Steelers then stopped throwing him the ball. He looked good but they took him right out of the offense anyway.
At this point, it's clear there is a concerted effort not to use him. He doesn't look any less talented to me than he was in 2015 when he was dominating. It's all about usage. The Steelers don't want to use him and Roethlisberger will not throw to him. We're nearly two months into the season and that's now become abundantly clear. There were reports last night which said he was being featured heavily in practice last week (probably where Rapoport got his info) but when the game began they immediately phased him out after the opening touch.
I'm not sure what's going on. I'm not saying Bryant's a star by any means but he is still talented and I think he could help this team. But it's clear they don't want his help and no longer value his contributions to the offense. Bryant owners must now respond to that if they haven't already.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
I don't believe the bolded is remotely true. Why have him on the field, then? Just park him on the bench, it's not like there aren't talented players who could log snaps instead of the ones they're giving him.
I watch every snap of every game and I can tell you for certain that he doesn't (yet) look like he did in 2015. He was taking short passes and turning them into huge gains on a regular basis in 2015, that isn't happening at all this year. He's getting tripped up almost immediately every time he gets the ball. He's doing way too much east-west instead of north-south - looking to make the huge play every time, only it's not happening for him. It could easily be that being out of the game for over a year and having an abbreviated pre-season has led to him not fully being in sync. It could be that he's lost even a touch of the explosiveness he had that separated him from other receivers.
packersfan
Footballguy
Romo pointed out yesterday how Bryant is being singled on nearly every pass play. Yet he had one actual target the entire game. I'd say there's an effort not to use him. I can't say why he's on the field if they won't throw to him but when he's getting single coverage nearly all the time and he's getting 1-2 targets a game I'm not sure what else to call it than a concerted effort.
The most glaring and obvious example was the play I cited last night. Ball at the 4 and Bryant is singled. Bengals put three players on Brown. Roethlisberger doesn't even look to Bryant in single coverage. Instead he waits and waits and then throws the ball to Brown who still has three guys on him. Incomplete. Field goal.
Maybe Bryant doesn't beat the man coverage on the play. I don't deny Brown's so damn good I don't mind throwing the ball to him in coverage. But at the end of the day Bryant is being singled repeatedly and is now getting 1-2 actual catchable balls thrown to him a game. Like I said, I don't know what else to call it other than a concerted effort not to use him.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
OK, if you believe they're rolling him out there every week with a team-wide edict in place to only throw him the ball 2 or 3 times a game (as some sort of punitive freeze-out?), I won't try to talk you out of it. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but I think it's far more likely that he just isn't making plays and Roethlisberger doesn't look his way as often because he doesn't have full confidence in what the results will be.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
I mean, he's third on the team in targets behind Antonio Brown and LeVeon Bell. Both of those guys are pretty good.
Yards per target :
Brown : 9.11
Bryant : 6.50
JuJu : 8.88
James : 6.04
Those are the only 4 guys on the team averaging >2 targets a game, aside from Bell, who isn't really comparable because he's a running back. When Bryant's YPT is comparable to the cement-footed Jesse James as opposed to Brown and Smith-Schuster, that kind of tells the story.
Yards per target :
Brown : 9.11
Bryant : 6.50
JuJu : 8.88
James : 6.04
Those are the only 4 guys on the team averaging >2 targets a game, aside from Bell, who isn't really comparable because he's a running back. When Bryant's YPT is comparable to the cement-footed Jesse James as opposed to Brown and Smith-Schuster, that kind of tells the story.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
Reception % (rec/targets)
AB : 62%
Bell : 79%
Bryant : 50%
JuJu : 65%
James : 72%
Again, that's every player averaging 2 or more targets per game. You'd expect Bell & James to be a bit higher due to the nature of the routes they run, but Bryant, JuJu, and Antonio are all in the same offense with the same QB, yet Bryant's catch rate is ~20% lower than the other two wideouts. I'd venture that his average yards traveled in the air per target is probably the lowest of the three WRs as well (nothing to back that up except watching the games - he gets a bunch of screens thrown his way.)
AB : 62%
Bell : 79%
Bryant : 50%
JuJu : 65%
James : 72%
Again, that's every player averaging 2 or more targets per game. You'd expect Bell & James to be a bit higher due to the nature of the routes they run, but Bryant, JuJu, and Antonio are all in the same offense with the same QB, yet Bryant's catch rate is ~20% lower than the other two wideouts. I'd venture that his average yards traveled in the air per target is probably the lowest of the three WRs as well (nothing to back that up except watching the games - he gets a bunch of screens thrown his way.)
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I don't think it is an effort to not use him. I think it's more incompetence. Could be incompetence in teaching routes, play calling or reading the D by Ben. Hell, he threw a deep pass to Brown with 3 guys on him. That's incompetence. I also believe it was that game on 3rd and one they threw a low % pass deep down field. That's incompetence.
Like Sark in ATL. He's failing miserably because they don't throw to the TE or the RBs like they used to. Freeman is on pace for less than 1/2 his previous season's catches. TE use is even worse. It's mostly incompetence and thinking you are outthinking the other guy when you should just use all your weapons.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
OK, but then wouldn't that "incompetence" affect everyone equally? Or are you suggesting that the "incompetence" is somehow directed solely at Bryant?
packersfan
Footballguy
I think there's absolutely a trust issue going on. As far as targets, he averaged close to 9 per game in 2015. In the past two games he's had three legitimate targets (and he caught them all for what it's worth) but the target number is clearly trending down. Everyone knows and agrees Bell and Brown are studs and deserve to be the focal points. Nobody is disputing that.
The question is why isn't Bryant more involved? Maybe he has lost a step (though he looked damn good to me on his TD and on the slant route last week). Maybe they just don't think he's all that good anymore. Maybe Bryant and Ben hate each other. I don't have a clue what's going on. All I know is he was a major part of this team's offense the last time he played; he was involved earlier in the season but the past two games in particular he's a virtual non-entity despite seeing a healthy amount of single coverage as defenses understandably roll coverage toward Brown.
Again, from a fantasy perspective he's dead to me. I still believe in his talent but I can't keep waiting for a WR who's down to 1-2 targets a game so I'm moving on. I just find the whole thing really odd because he is a talented player in my opinion and I do think the Steelers could use him. But for some reason they have no desire to right now.
The question is why isn't Bryant more involved? Maybe he has lost a step (though he looked damn good to me on his TD and on the slant route last week). Maybe they just don't think he's all that good anymore. Maybe Bryant and Ben hate each other. I don't have a clue what's going on. All I know is he was a major part of this team's offense the last time he played; he was involved earlier in the season but the past two games in particular he's a virtual non-entity despite seeing a healthy amount of single coverage as defenses understandably roll coverage toward Brown.
Again, from a fantasy perspective he's dead to me. I still believe in his talent but I can't keep waiting for a WR who's down to 1-2 targets a game so I'm moving on. I just find the whole thing really odd because he is a talented player in my opinion and I do think the Steelers could use him. But for some reason they have no desire to right now.
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
In his defense, they have not exactly been lighting the field on fire with offensive heroics this season. I watched the game yesterday and there were a few times when I was left wondering if a coach's 11 year old son was calling the plays. Running some guy I have never heard of on a critical 4th and 1 play late in the game when you have the best RB in football on your roster? What was that? If you wan to try that crap on 2nd and 1 in the first quarter, be my guest. In the 4th quarter, give the ball to your stud and don't overthink it. Then later they threw a low percentage pass to another nobody on another critical 3rd and makeable. They were lucky their D bailed them out, or those plays would have been all we were hearing about on talk radio today. It did seem like incompetence to me. I thought they deserved to lose that game.
ETA: With Ben, Bell, AB, Bryant, and JuJu on that offense, and a solid OL, they should be dominating games offensively. They should be unstoppable. They have the best WR and the best RB in the game, a HOF QB, and good pieces around them. Something does seem very wrong in my opinion.
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Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
Terrell Watson is their short yardage back. Prior to that play, he hadn't been stopped all year long on a 3rd or 4th and 1. I get that one.
They do seem to have a fascination with trying for huge plays downfield on 3rd and very short. They've been doing it all year with very little success. It's one of those things where you don't have to connect at a super high rate to make it viable, because when the plays do connect, the yield is tremendous. It just hasn't been very successful thus far and I admit, it has frustrated me at times.
To say they deserved to lose the game yesterday is a bit ridiculous, though. Their backup safety had more passing yards in the second half than the entire Bengals offense had yards, period. Kind of tough to win that way. The game was very close through 30 minutes, but the Bengals imploded in the second half.
packersfan
Footballguy
One big issue I've seen is Ben's accuracy on deep balls is way off. That's obviously a big part of what made Bryant so good. You can rip on Bryant's effort on the deep ball yesterday I suppose but it was nowhere near him. A really bad throw by Ben. Seen that several times on his deep passes this season.
They could still find other ways to use Bryant, of course, but the deep balls are clearly missing.
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
I will defer to you on the 4th and 1...although I personally give the ball to the best RB in football in that situation 10 out of 10 times. Its not like it was a choice between Isaiah Crowell and Terrell Watson. Bell is the best RB, if not the best offensive player in football. If you are going to give the ball back, and let the team back in the game on that play, don't let it be because you chose Terrell Watson over LeVeon Bell.
I agree...the Bengals imploded. I didn't say they deserved to win.
It won't affect the guy getting 15-20 targets a game. But it will cost you wins. 3 of 5 picks vs the Jags went towards Brown. He was forcing it. That's incompetence. You won't see it in the stat line because he went 10-157.
His one to Brown IN TRIPLE COVERAGE was equally uncatchable. Overthrown as usual. That will put a dent in Bryant's production. If you can't get to it you can't catch it. You have to throw a catchable ball. Vinny threw a catchable. Jeff Blake was the master of he pun pass, a catchable ball. You have to rust you receiver to make a play. I think the added muscle has hurt is explosiveness like it did with roided out David Boston.
The Frankman
Footballguy
My big issue is what was the need to talk up Martavis Bryant like he'd have the same role in 2015... and then treat him like discount Darrius Heyward-Bey? If they did a tough love "he's going to have to earn his playing time" approach, I don't think we see this situation. Just very odd choice of communication
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
You said the Steelers deserved to lose. The transitive property would then dictate that the Bengals deserved to win. Unless you thought both teams should have been given a loss.
I would have given it to Bell too - I agree with you on that. I think that was a case of doing something until someone proves they can stop it. Now they have, and I think the personnel will be different when that situation arises again, but who knows?
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
Bryant - 36 targets
Heyward-Bey - 1 target
That's through 7 games. I understand the general nature of your point, but the hyperbole in this thread is undermining a lot of legitimate discussion.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
OK, but if the season ended today, the Steelers would be the #1 seed in the AFC playoffs. So, I guess it isn't costing them too much in terms of wins. And even if you want to say Brown would be unaffected, why would JuJu have (essentially) the same amount of receptions and yards as Bryant (1 rec, 3 yards fewer), with triple the TD total, on 28% fewer targets? By any objective measure, Smith-Schuster has been more effective so far this year than Martavis has. If you want to know why Bryant's usage/numbers are down, you don't have to look a whole lot farther than that.
The Frankman
Footballguy
I think my point was very clear without being literal with it, and even going to that degree is more a danger to derail the thread. Moreso, you glossed over it to even pursue that tangent, so... huh.
Because he's running alot more high-percentage routes. His usage hasn't been reliant on a deep ball, since he runs routes closer to the line. Of course he's going to be alot more effective, especially when he's getting shovel passes at the goalline.
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I'd say his average yards traveled is actually the highest. For instance this week it was 2 passes. 1 for a few yards, the uncatchable one about 50 yards. That 2 yard average will be higher than any of the other guys. Other than Brown once this past week, I think every bomb goes towards Bryant so that will drop his catch % when he's only getting a coupe targets. His hands are his biggest issue. I've mentioned that numerous times. Brown's average is most certainly lower than Bryant's.
packersfan
Footballguy
Bryant's total targets for the season is seriously misleading because it ignores the vital context of what his role is now. And his role is clearly in decline. Here are his targets by game:
6
4
8
5
8
3
2
His targets per game the past two weeks has been 2.5. First five games it was 6.2. We are seeing a massive decline in his usage the past two weeks.
6
4
8
5
8
3
2
His targets per game the past two weeks has been 2.5. First five games it was 6.2. We are seeing a massive decline in his usage the past two weeks.
packersfan
Footballguy
Bryant reportedly skipped the team's Monday meetings today. If true, it's clear he's trying to force a trade. At this point you have to wonder why the Steelers wouldn't trade him. I understand the salary but they clearly have no use for him on offense and if he's becoming a problem just ship him off and get a pick for him and move on.
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ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
Think Trubisky could use a little help at WR?
Stealthycat
Footballguy
Juju's stock climbing is what this all means IMO
Steeler
Footballguy
Even though he skipped a meeting or whatever, I still think he has more value to the Steelers as an insurance policy over some random 5th round pick. Plus, who would give up anything for this guy? He's one more strike from being Josh Gordon. I would be shocked if there was a trade.
Pwingles
Footballguy
Yeah, I agree. At this point nobody is gonna pay the price his talent would command if his situation was cleaner. Steelers arent paying much for his services now, they have invested time though, unless this turns into a crazy percy harvin type scenario where he is fighting people and whatnot, he isnt getting cut or traded during the season, imo
He's a malcontent and a team won't have to pay much to get him. Talent wise, he warrants a 2-3 round pick, butnthats onviously not happening
Biabreakable
Footballguy
hmmm
Well if he is under contract for next season then it makes a bit of sense that the Steelers should trade him if they aren't going to use him much in their offense.
I can sort of see Bryants side of this, he is stuck with a rookie contract and due to the suspension an additional year of low salary. His play time being scaled back which will make his eventual offers in free agency less lucrative.
It is kind of a #### or get off the pot situation from his perspective, use him more or trade him so he can try to get paid more instead of being held in limbo while his value stagnates.
Of course it is his fault he was suspended. Just trying to look at it from the players point of view.
The CBA has really ruined young players earning potential at the beginning of their contracts and a lot of these players won't get a second contract, football being a young persons game for the most part.
The Frankman
Footballguy
Well that escalated quickly.
thehoch
Footballguy
If you aren't going to use him, trade him. I think Ben is the problem. He is d#$# and wants to teach him a lesson for lying to him and/or wants him gone and doesn't like him.
Trade him then.......Martavis deserves and opportunity to play, he has world class talent, and most importantly wants an opportunity to show his abilities so he can make more money. I don't blame him to be honest.
Trade him then.......Martavis deserves and opportunity to play, he has world class talent, and most importantly wants an opportunity to show his abilities so he can make more money. I don't blame him to be honest.
Pwingles
Footballguy
Yeah, if it comes to it, he will just be benched. Until circumstance dictates he should play. You'll see less and less of him. Theyll just use DHB as a downfield guy, even if they never complete a play to him, thats about the same out put theyre getting from Bryant right now so they lose very little by just keeping him there and not giving into his tantrums. Wouldnt surprise me to see him as a healthy scratch one of these weeks coming up
packersfan
Footballguy
Off the top of my head
Chiefs
Cowboys
Bears
49ers
Bills
Jets
Ravens/Browns (I understand division trade highly unlikely but both could use a WR with his talent rather badly)
Giants
Lions
Pwingles
Footballguy
What martavis deserves is exactly what he is getting, with the attitude he has been putting out there (very publically i might add) since he returned from suspension.
He's upset that Ben is upset because Bryant let the team down..... too damn bad, its true.
Ben expects an apology to him and the team and hes mad? They deserve one, suck it up.
If he thinks his FA venture is going to be super lucrative, he is likely wrong. A lot of people would like his services, but i highly doubt he is getting a huge deal with much gtd $$ on this next deal. Maybe the one after.
