Foosball God
Foos
Benching Dalton actually makes it less likely they'd trade Green. Finley's going to need some veteran WR presence.
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WR A.J. Green, ARZ (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter JohnnyU
- Start date
kittenmittens
Footballguy
Finley is a 4th rounder. Expectations should be zero, and they should also not worry about his weapons.
He has a lot to prove.
He has a lot to prove.
Gandalf
Footballguy
I’m joking around with you. Green hasn’t played yet this year so for redraft yes he’s a bust. This news of Dalton getting benched is just piling on at this point.
Foosball God
Foos
If they're trying to see what they have then they should provide him an environment that should allow him to succeed as much as they can.
All good. Most definitely AJG wasn't good ROI to this point given the length he's been out. But given the mind-meld with Dalton there was hope for a FF playoff run to avoid the total bust. Oh well.
kittenmittens
Footballguy
I agree with that, just don't think they should pay too high of a price. I mean, don't spend far more than you spent on Finley in the first place just to see what you have - unless he's been so impressive in practice that you are confident he's the next franchise QB.
I Am the Stig
Footballguy
Foosball God
Foos
It totally depends on what they could actually get in return for Green. I think us FF geeks have a higher value placed on him than most teams do, if they're only getting offered low round picks for him then it doesn't make much sense to trade him. Depending on how Green plays they might net more as a comp pick for him signing elsewhere in the offseason.
kittenmittens
Footballguy
For sure. Schefter or Rapaport (?) reported that they Bengals could get a 1st if they listened to offers. Seems accurate based on compensation for Sanu and Sanders.
Foosball God
Foos
Those guys obviously know way more than I do, but that seems awfully high. I'm a new Green owner in dynasty so obviously I'd love to see him traded, but injury history and age are working against him.
kittenmittens
Footballguy
Can't disagree, I was shocked that Sanu went for a 2nd and Sanders+5 for a 3 and a 4.
Green is worth way more than those two. He's a true game changer. I can't blame the Bengals for asking for market price.
I Am the Stig
Footballguy
Green is only valuable to those teams with a legit chance with a closing contending window. The Saints would fit the bill and to a lesser extent Green Bay. New England would also be that window is closing but they spent all their money on candy with AB.
For teams like the Eagles there is likely interest and he could spark a struggling team but the down stream ramifications are likely not worth the cost of buy in.
For teams like the Eagles there is likely interest and he could spark a struggling team but the down stream ramifications are likely not worth the cost of buy in.
kittenmittens
Footballguy
The Raiders and Panthers are reported to be trying to add WRs.
I'm not sure I would do that if I were them. They aren't very good, but I don't think they have realized that. At least not good enough to be short term buyers.
I'm not sure I would do that if I were them. They aren't very good, but I don't think they have realized that. At least not good enough to be short term buyers.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Green coming back to Ryan Finley at QB is not exactly what I had in mind.
Weebs210
Footballguy
Finley may not make it through a whole game before putting Dalton back in. I can't imagine a rookie stepping in behind that line but let's see how he does.
Don Hutson
Footballguy
Cordy Glenn will be back which should help a little. They are probably planning on drafting a quarterback with their first round pick so Mike Brown probably wants to see what they have in Finley just in case he can impress them. If Finley plays well surrounded by that offense, he is probably a franchise quarterback.
Foosball God
Foos
Shawnky
Footballguy
I never said his career. I was referring to the years before Stafford and when Stafford was hurt. He still had really good production.
No. It's not.
Week 15 vs. Patriots. Jason McCourty will be the Bengals' leader receiver that day.
Shawnky
Footballguy
Shutout
Footballguy
Shutout
Footballguy
If Finley survives that train wreck of a team, he probably Will be their "franchise" qb but not for the right reasons. It will be because the Bengals can go cheap, as usual, and the Bengals will be what they were in the Dalton era for another 5-10.
I truly have a disgust for this type of move because it is one thing for a team to know when its not happening for them in a given year and say "let's see what we have" in a certain player but its just WRONG to toss out a rookie in such a poor situation. Anything can happen but its very likely that what DOES happen will be terribly bad and destroy this kid's career. He will be running for his life and knocked around, non-stop. How do you legitimately evaluate a rookie QB when the surrounding cast is a coaching staff that hasn't been able to win a single game, no defense, and certainly no offensive protection? I mean, its akin to pulling a new BMW onto the street and being asked to evaluate it but the catch is there are four flat tires and no gas in the tank.
Dalton being benched is likely a downgrade for Green upon his return, but lets not pretend that Dalton was Drew Brees. Finley could possibly be as good, and likely will only be a slight downgrade.
The garbage time will still be there, the targets will still be there. The only thing that changed is you lose that existing rapport. That applies to Green, but likely also applies to Boyd, who has been very heavily targeted. This is still a team that is going to pass 40 times a game every week, because they simply have to. Green could, and likely will see 10 targets every week.
I was looking at Green as a 10-15 WR with Dalton, its probably 15-20 with Finley. But maybe Finley is better than we know. He was a very good player in college, and was a 30+ game starter. He was likely the most NFL ready QB in the draft. I personally didn't see much difference between him and Daniel Jones. I thought(and still think) they both should have been 3rd rounders.
I don't think Dalton is the reason the Bengals are 0-7, but he's also not really elevating them, so I get the move. Time will tell if it is an upgrade or downgrade, but I feel a lot better about Finley than I did about Minshew or Kyle Allen.
The garbage time will still be there, the targets will still be there. The only thing that changed is you lose that existing rapport. That applies to Green, but likely also applies to Boyd, who has been very heavily targeted. This is still a team that is going to pass 40 times a game every week, because they simply have to. Green could, and likely will see 10 targets every week.
I was looking at Green as a 10-15 WR with Dalton, its probably 15-20 with Finley. But maybe Finley is better than we know. He was a very good player in college, and was a 30+ game starter. He was likely the most NFL ready QB in the draft. I personally didn't see much difference between him and Daniel Jones. I thought(and still think) they both should have been 3rd rounders.
I don't think Dalton is the reason the Bengals are 0-7, but he's also not really elevating them, so I get the move. Time will tell if it is an upgrade or downgrade, but I feel a lot better about Finley than I did about Minshew or Kyle Allen.
Shutout
Footballguy
man, i don't want to say your'e dreaming but...you're dreaming. Allen And Minshew have the luxury of MUCH better surrounding teams. I am not trying to discredit Finley in terms of his ability (I don't know what that is) but this kid is being wrongly thrown to the wolves. I hate when this happens to young QBs because it is the David Carr thing all over again. Obvious talent and potential but they literally allowed him to be beat into the ground and broke him physically and mentally.
Dalton was never Drew Brees, as you say, but I think you kind of seriously discredit that rapport and experience he had with Green. That IS very important and the Bengals were a much better team back then. My concern, other than what I already stated for Finley, is that a lack of rapport with an inexperienced QB is that Finley puts the balls in the wrong place and gets one of his receivers injured. They are going to be so pressed to do "something" that it will get sloppy.
Gandalf
Footballguy
I also worry they just shut AJ green down at some point. This team is tanking hard.
can they franchise him?
Shawnky
Footballguy
Yes, they can franchise him.
What evidence have they shown to be tanking? They aren't doing what Miami is.
Shutout
Footballguy
Yeah, they can for $18M which would be a STEAL for the Bengals so, to me...yeah, sounds like a Mike Brown Move. Get him on the cheap and screw him and expect that to not have any negative ramifications throughout the organization.
Shutout
Footballguy
I don't know if I would use the word "tanking". They are the Bengals being the Bengals. they are SO good at being mediocre and putting in minimal effort that the casual NFL fan that doesn't follow them closely doesn't even notice them not trying.
Gandalf
Footballguy
Yeah sorry by tanking I just mean they suck this year. And they need to find out what they have in Finley which will likely cause them to lose more
kittenmittens
Footballguy
Deamon
Footballguy
Why would they not be licking their chops at drafting one of the top 2 QB's in this years draft once they get the chance? If a team is even slightly QB-needy, and you end up top 3 in a good qb class, you don't skip him. The chances Cinci will ever be top 3 picks after this year are somewhat low. Don't mess around with it, take your new franchise QB.
Gandalf
Footballguy
They might not like the QB's in this draft. Frankly, I don't think its any better than last year's class. Last year was Murray and then a bunch of question marks. This year looks like Tua, and then a bunch of question marks. I need to see Burrow more, but I personally don't think that much of Herbert or Fromm.
Also, Chase Young looks like the best DE to come out since Myles Garrett(yes, he looks better than Bosa ever did at OSU) so if Finley shows well, why not stick with him, and build the rest of the team up, rather than taking a chance on a QB, that you may not be sold on, just because it is what you are supposed to do.
oddsbodkins
Footballguy
All I see is Finley peppering AJ with 14 targets a game because he probably owned him in fantasy as a high school student. Dalton's benching doesn't bother me at all. Been holding this guy all year, I want to play him at least once!
cheese
Footballguy
Because this team with Chase Young, a healthy AJGreen and a decent Ryan Finley can finish like 6-10. Then what? Try to draft a QB from 10 instead of 2? That’s the concern I have at least.
My point was, its a bad idea to take a QB just to take a QB. You are setting yourself back years if that guy doesn't pan out, and in my opinion, Tua is the only guy in this draft worth that, and the Bengals are no lock to get him.cheese said:
Its not like the Bengals are a QB away anyway, they need almost everything. I'd rather have Young and Finley, over say, Herbert.
QuizGuy66
Footballguy
Green is gonna stay. He wants to be there and they want him to be there. It's that simple.
Tua/Burrow likely to be throwing to him next year.
This year he's a crap shoot now - the kid is going to have to throw a lot - but more likely Eifert and the running backs are going to benefit - especially if the kid's release isn't nearly as quick as Dalton's is.
-QG
Tua/Burrow likely to be throwing to him next year.
This year he's a crap shoot now - the kid is going to have to throw a lot - but more likely Eifert and the running backs are going to benefit - especially if the kid's release isn't nearly as quick as Dalton's is.
-QG
Deamon
Footballguy
travdogg said:
You aren't setting yourself back years if your pick at #2 doesn't pan out. It would be the same affect as if you took an OL with pick 2 and he has a career ending injury. How you COULD set yourself back years, is one of those top qb's panning out and you're regretting it for years to come.
Tua isn't even being mocked at #1 unanimously. Burrow could very well go #1.
"building your team up" and then getting your qb simply doesn't work often. It's a catch 22 because if your other picks turn out great, and the team outside the QB is good, then you likely won't be picking top 8, and your ODDS (yes, yes I know there are EXCEPTIONS) of getting a franchise QB outside of the top 8 are much lower.
It's rare to have a QB need, a potential stud be there, and you not have to trade a bunch of picks to go get him. It would be a massive mistake for Cinci to pass on a QB if they get a top 2 pick.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Eh the Akili Smith & Klingler picks seem like relevant data points.
The issue with QB more than any other positions, is that teams will give that player the longest leash to pan out. Look at a guy like Mariota, he's never improved from his rookie season, its 5 years later and they only now pulled the plug. Trubisky will likely get a 4th starting season unless he completely faceplants down the stretch, despite never even being as good as Mariota. Look how long Bortles got. A case could be made that an instant career ending injury would have been better for those franchises, then several wasted years of trying to will something into existence that was never going to happen.
You also don't want to continue to waste top picks on QB's, just hoping one pans out. Locker/Mariota 4 years later. Gabbert/Bortles 3 years later.
I'll admit, I need to do more homework on Burrow, as he's kind of come out of nowhere this season. He makes a bit nervous the same way Haskins did though, where he's got a very limited resume, on a pretty stacked team. Right now, I wouldn't take him in the top-10. Certainly not over a guy like Chase Young.
There are a lot of examples of teams using high picks on maybes at QB, and passing on studs elsewhere. You see it every year.
2018: Josh Rosen could have been Derwin James, or Jaire Alexander.
2017: Mitch Trubisky could have been Christian McCaffrey, or Marshon Lattimore.
2016: Paxton Lynch could have been Chris Jones, or Kenny Clark.
2015:Marcus Mariota could have been Amari Cooper, or Todd Gurley
2014: Blake Bortles could have been Khalil Mack, or Mike Evans.
2013: EJ Manuel could have been Xavier Rhodes or DeAndre Hopkins
2012: Ryan Tannehill could have been Luke Kuechly or Fletcher Cox, and Brandon Weeden could have been Harrison Smith or David DeCastro
2011: Jake Locker could have been Tyron Smith or JJ Watt, and Blaine Gabbert could have been JJ Watt or Robert Quinn, and Christian Ponder could have been Robert Quinn or Ryan Kerrigan.
2010: Tim Tebow could have been Devin McCourty
2009: Josh Freeman could have been Alex Mack or Clay Matthews
Those are just missed 1st round QB's(who were highly flawed prospects going into those drafts) in the last decade, taken by desperate teams. Other than maybe Arizona with Murray(and most teams would have stuck with Rosen I bet) and Denver getting arguably the best FA signing in NFL history with Peyton Manning, those other teams still have QB questions, have underachieved, and passed on some very good (in some cases HOF caliber) players. Hopefully for Giants fans sake we aren't adding Daniel Jones to this list soon, though again, that is a pick I would never have made.
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Deamon
Footballguy
This is the worst case of stat cherry picking I've seen. Of course you can pick ones that didn't work out... there's many that do. For every top 10 draft pick qb that doesn't make it, there's 5 qb's outside of the top 10 that don't. So let's say the Bengals pass on a qb and take Chase Young... who is the franchise QB going to be? Are you just assuming "hey, they might have swung and missed on Tua/Burrow, but I'm assuming they will hit on some other QB that they'll get around pick 10".
That's not how it works. Russel WIlsons are 1 in a 100. Chances of the Bengals missing on the next QB they bring in is FAR greater than if they take one top 3 in the draft. You seem to be making arguments based on flawed logic, thinking that you either A: Don't need a great qb to have long term nfl success, or B: you can hit at just as high a rate outside the top 3 picks as you can within it. Cinci would be making a gigantic mistake by passing on qb in this year's draft, but luckily they will probably make the right decision and take one.
QuizGuy66
Footballguy
Klinger was like 7th overall. But Smith and the Corporal were both reaches and looked as such at the time. I don't think Tua or Burrow are reaches.
-QG
Of course I'm cherry picking, the whole point is to show what happens when drafting a QB high doesn't work, and the long term damage it can cause. I'm on board with taking Tua if he's there, I think he's a franchise QB. As of now. that is it in my opinion. So any other QB is a bad use of resources. The answer of who the franchise QB is going to be is very possibly the same whether they take a guy on round 1, round 2, or not at all, and just roll with Finley.
I believe the Browns did it right. They took Myles Garrett, instead of forcing a QB they weren't sure on, and they got their guy later. I still fully believe in Mayfield, and so do they. While I'm not a Daniel Jones fan at all, I think in hindsight, the Giants probably did just fine taking Barkley because they thought he was the best player in the draft.
I guess the real difference in opinion we have here, is I don't trust Burrow yet.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
>>Paul Dehner Jr.
@pauldehnerjr
Just got done with an interview with A.J. Green. A lot to unpack (and that’s coming). Basics: - He’s ready to play. Aiming for Baltimore - Ready to ball out and this team wouldn’t be 0-8 with him healthy - Understands biz of AD decision ... <<
Dehner
@pauldehnerjr
Just got done with an interview with A.J. Green. A lot to unpack (and that’s coming). Basics: - He’s ready to play. Aiming for Baltimore - Ready to ball out and this team wouldn’t be 0-8 with him healthy - Understands biz of AD decision ... <<
Dehner
