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Stephen Hawking finally comes out: I'm an Atheist (1 Viewer)
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TheIronSheik
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timschochet
Footballguy
mr roboto
Footballguy
Is his statement unfalsifiable? In other words, he's using his mind to conclude that no aspect of reality is beyond human understanding. But it's truly impossible to prove that. (Because the only aspects of reality we can understand are so understood by human minds) I guess though the theist has a hard time speaking to things that 'transcend human understanding.'
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Jayrod
Footballguy
How can we know what is unknowable? To limit the universe to our ability to understand it puts things in a pretty small box. There is more to the world than our five senses can comprehend and our communication can convey. Just seems really arrogant to even believe nothing is beyond our reach. It sounds like a person who has been praised for how smart he is for so long that he believes he can figure out anything. I think it sounds like a great athlete who thinks he's invincible...until he blows out a knee and learns how weak his body really is.
timschochet
Footballguy
Obviously the problem is that you can't give an example of anything that is beyond the reach of the human mind- by providing the example, you negate your premise. God, for example, is not beyond the reach of the human mind, otherwise you couldn't believe in Him, because you wouldn't know anything about Him.
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Insoxicated
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mr roboto
Footballguy
So we know at least one thing that is beyond our ability to know it.
Al O'Pecia
Footballguy
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Insoxicated
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mr roboto
Footballguy
See, it's not just Christians who make vastly undefined and sweeping metaphysical claims!
Jayrod
Footballguy
I can ask questions I don't think we have the ability to answer. Is understanding a part of something the same thing as understanding everything? Of course not. So while we can know something about God, it doesn't mean there isn't something about him we don't have the ability to know. We can know how gravity effects things and calculate its force, but we don't even understand the mechanism that actually attracts other objects. We can believe that life came from non-life, but science cannot actually figure out how.
The Bible basically says there is much about God we cannot figure out/know. What we see/know is partial and incomplete. Likely due to either limitations on our current abilities or by God deliberately hiding it from us.
"For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." I Corinthians 13:9-12
TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
I can't believe people are still falling for this Hawking crap. I guarantee Hawking is brain dead and this is the first sentient computer. It was smart enough to know it would be destroyed if it didn't pretend to be a human. This computer is just the beginning.
I, for one, welcome our new brain dead person wielding computer overlords.
I, for one, welcome our new brain dead person wielding computer overlords.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
Sound is an aspect of reality. If you were deaf your mind could not reach this apsect of reality. But at least others could somehow communicate about this aspect of reality to you. But what if everyone ever born was deaf? This aspect of reality would be beyond the reach of the human mind. There are probably aspects of reality that our minds just don't have the sense to reach.
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CBusAlex
Footballguy
This... actually makes an unsettling amount of sense.I can't believe people are still falling for this Hawking crap. I guarantee Hawking is brain dead and this is the first sentient computer. It was smart enough to know it would be destroyed if it didn't pretend to be a human. This computer is just the beginning.
I, for one, welcome our new brain dead person wielding computer overlords.
EYLive
Footballguy
Need I remind you that he began with "In my opinion"? No need to give the guy a BJ just yet.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Like I say in my sig, the truth is the truth. Does it matter who says it?Forgive me if I err on the side of Hawking in your intellectual impasse...
I'm sure I'm not the only one to come up with that concept, but I settled on it one night after debating in this forum and someone mentioned Occum's Razor. It bugged me that people would simply just follow such a philosophy when it came to God and eternal life. I came to the realization that people are simply lazy and don't want to truly dig for the answers to difficult questions. They'd rather throw their hands up, follow someone else's ideas and turn on the TV for entertainment. Basically I'm saying anyone who blindly believes what another has to say on these matters without spending their whole life investigating it is a quitter. I'm calling Hawking a quitter because he has basically claimed an unknowable thing as truth. I think that's stupid, no matter how smart you are. And I think most Christians are quitters because they just blindly follow their pastor/the Bible without any real investigation on their own.
If one truly reads the Bible they should come away confused at times. There is no other rational response. To deny that in both religion and science is the height of arrogance and the end of intelligence.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
Jayrod, I think you underestimate how ridiculous many atheists find your beliefs. Spending a lifetime "digging" would be a giant waste of time for us.
timschochet
Footballguy
i don't share your contempt . I these are good and interesting arguments to discuss.
He's not saying we know or understand everything. He's saying we have the capacity to learn and understand. He's disagreeing with the belief that there are some things we can never know. Which is a cop-out served up by the religious sorts.
Apple Jack
Footballguy
Apple Jack
Footballguy
cstu
Footballguy
In my opinion, reality is limitless and the human brain is limited, thus Hawking's statement is certainly untrue.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Maybe by some it is used as a cop-out, but there are certainly things we don't understand now. If we don't understand everything that is available to us now, it isn't unreasonable to believe there are things we simply cannot understand no matter how long the time line.
Unless you understand everything, how can you be certain what reality really is? Even if there is just one thing you do not understand, that one thing could alter reality.
Koya
Footballguy
I'd suggest that it IS the limit of our minds that is the primary cause for us to "need" to believe in a higher being rather than face the objective reality that there likely is none. Certainly not in the nice, tidy, storybook way that our human religions have created god... Often in our own image.In my opinion, reality is limitless and the human brain is limited, thus Hawking's statement is certainly untrue.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Underestimate? I've been around here way to long to underestimate that.
And "digging" is probably too strong a word. I would be naive to expect that I suppose. Maybe just keep an open mind and take a look from time to time and actually consider the possibilities. 2.2 billion people are believing in something and they might actually be on to something.
That probably is the most logical explanation of why the majority will need religion. And many people realize that. However, even just the hope that the unlikely is true is comforting to many. So why knock it? I never understood why there seems to be a large number of atheist who are hellbent, so to speak, on having people accept their beliefs.I'd suggest that it IS the limit of our minds that is the primary cause for us to "need" to believe in a higher being rather than face the objective reality that there likely is none. Certainly not in the nice, tidy, storybook way that our human religions have created god... Often in our own image.In my opinion, reality is limitless and the human brain is limited, thus Hawking's statement is certainly untrue.
Jayrod
Footballguy
1. I personally don't "need" to believe in a higher being for my existence or even my temporal happiness. I could go months/yers without thinking of dying or eternity and be just fine with my modern day comforts. I'm sure I'm not the only American Christian in that boat.I'd suggest that it IS the limit of our minds that is the primary cause for us to "need" to believe in a higher being rather than face the objective reality that there likely is none. Certainly not in the nice, tidy, storybook way that our human religions have created god... Often in our own image.In my opinion, reality is limitless and the human brain is limited, thus Hawking's statement is certainly untrue.
2. How can you say "likely is none"? The idea that there is likely nothing beyond our realm of understanding is a very odd belief, IMO.
3. The Bible isn't nice/tidy or storybook. If you believe that, you haven't read it. And the Bible absolutely doesn't paint God in our own image. It uses human terms that often seem odd and contradictory when compared to humanity.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
Jayrod
Footballguy
What are you talking about? Read the entire chapter and you'll understand the passage a bit better.
joffer
Footballguy
Ahh... The argument from popularity. The first of many logical fallacies I'm sure.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
I think what I implied is pretty explicit to anyone that reasons like a man.
Oh, and 1 Corinthians 13 supports that the only thing that ultimately matters is "Love thy neighbor" ("do unto others"). So it really says nothing about what we can know, just what matters.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Believe simply because of popularity? Heck no. Listen and consider because of popularity? I think a reasonable person would, which is all I'm asking. It at least merits a legit investigation.
joffer
Footballguy
I have investigated, and so has Hawking, and he's simply saying that nothing he's discovered requires a deity.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Love my neighbor as part of the Gospels. First Corinthians chapter 13 is about how if you don't do things with love they're worthless. But it is also on the tail end of a discussion on spiritual gifts. The concept being that there is imperfection in our current life including our understanding of things. But once the imperfection disappears, we will have greater understanding. I guess I should have just referenced the super long speech in the book of Job where God basically says you do not have the ability to understand why I'm doing what I'm doing.
And are you really trying to use the Bible as an argument against the Bible?
Jayrod
Footballguy
I guess if that's your interpretation of it I understand what you're saying. I kind of take it to mean that he thinks there is no way there's anything beyond his ability to understand which I find a dangerous position.
hagmania
Footballguy
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
No, Job would be just as out of context as Corinthians. And the Bible is just being used against those that misuse the Bible.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Weird. I agree with that statement, but it's a complete non sequitur in the theism vs. atheism debate.
Edit: I see matuski and I agree on this one, which is kind of remarkable.
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matuski
Footballguy
Jayrod
Footballguy
Then why don't you believe in the existence of a higher power?Doesn't weigh into it for a second for me
ETA: As in I genuinely want to know what is your reasoning...not if you don't agree then you SHOULD believe.
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Jayrod
Footballguy
What I'm trying to say is that on some level doesn't every atheist say, "I don't know about the existence of any higher beings, have not seen any evidence, therefore I don't believe one does exist." Which is basically what Hawking is saying just on a grander scale....that if we cannot comprehend it, it does not exist.
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