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Dynasty & Redraft: WR Amari Cooper, Cowboys


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1 minute ago, King of the Jungle said:

Concerning if he is checking out of the first game of the season. Judging by the game logs last year he may have been doing the same. Maybe he is just not that good or has no desire to be great. Either way I doubt Gruden puts up with it for very long.

Yeah, it's really bad news that Carr didn't even give Cooper a chance to make a play, especially when the game script went negative. If Carr isn't looking towards his "best WR" once when the team absolutely needs a score and is instead checking down to Richard 10 times in a row then you know there 100% has to be a problem. I don't care if their CBs are some of the best in the league, Cooper should be good enough to challenge them or be given a chance to make a play. I mean his average depth of target was 6.7 yards last night, they never once challenged LAR with Cooper vertically.

And there's no such thing as an overreaction in the context of multi-season sample size. Cooper started ####ting the bed in the middle of the 2016 season. 

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It’s interesting how Dak and Amari’s weaknesses correlate. Dak hates throwing contested balls and Amari seems to hate catching them. Like two lost souls who meet at Alcoholics Anonymous maybe they can

Not blaming you, I know this part of his quote has been picked up by fantasy outlets but this is a good example misquoting someone or quoting them out of context. What he was saying was that it's easi

Check down means he went through his progressions, didn't see his primary option open so he checked down to a back or receiver to salvage some yards on the play.  That is not what happened last n

2 for 9 on 8 targets (2017)

and 1 for 9 on 1  (2017) target in his games vs. Denver last year.  No Talib this year but still concerning.

6-56-0  (2016)

4-39-1  (2016)

4-47-0 (2015)

0-0 (2015)

Not the best history vs. Denver this week.

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42 minutes ago, DocHolliday said:

Im probably going to start Cooper in week 2 but Cooper, Carr, and Gruden are not giving me much confidence.  I didn't see the O that I was expecting.  I thought we would see something similar to Gannon, Brown and Rice.  Quick outs, ins and slants to move the chains and eventually someone breaking a tackle and getting some yards.  Bringing Nelson in really felt like that was Gruden's plan.    

I'd have no problem benching him for a while until we see the offense settle in. They just had their first game under gruden.  Cooper had a couple catches and a run (16 yard reception called back on a penalty away from the ball) but they just didn't throw to the wide receivers. Will that change? Absolutely.  Will it be next week?  Im not sure.  If you're not comfortable starting him and have other good options, play them instead. Not every good player is good every week.  It would be nice if he were good enough to be the exception to that rule but so far he isn't. That doesn't make him bad.

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24 minutes ago, SameSongNDance said:

I don't care if their CBs are some of the best in the league, Cooper should be good enough to challenge them or be given a chance to make a play. I mean his average depth of target was 6.7 yards last night, they never once challenged LAR with Cooper vertically.

exactly! I don't care how good their cornerbacks are, Cooper and Carr are were supposed to be pretty damn good too... Allegedly.

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34 minutes ago, bostonfred said:

I'd have no problem benching him for a while until we see the offense settle in. They just had their first game under gruden.  Cooper had a couple catches and a run (16 yard reception called back on a penalty away from the ball) but they just didn't throw to the wide receivers. Will that change? Absolutely.  Will it be next week?  Im not sure.  If you're not comfortable starting him and have other good options, play them instead. Not every good player is good every week.  It would be nice if he were good enough to be the exception to that rule but so far he isn't. That doesn't make him bad.

Carr is the problem.  Maybe against softer D's Cooper will get more looks.....could you imagine if that game was in Minnesota last night?  Carr would've been in fetal posish all night!

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Carr looked like a rookie.  Checkdowns to RB and TE all night.  At no point did he look like a competent NFL QB. 

Given how bad the passing game was last year, this is a continuation of last year in my eyes.  Rather than calling it a week 1 overreaction, I think the evidence is there.  Cooper may finish ok, but Carr is going to limit him. 

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4 hours ago, bostonfred said:

He had a 16 yard catch called back by penalty early in was getting doubled for most of the first quarter. But he's supposed to win tough match ups sometimes too. They just kept dumping to the tight end and running back. And it wasn't like carr was going through all his progressions then checking down to the back. He was quick releasing it to the back again and again.  

Exactly this!  I watched carr's helmet each play of the second half and it was snapping right to the dump off guy as soon as he looked up.  He did not want to even look to see if a downfield option was open.

As a Cooper owner, I am hoping that this is the product of fear of the Rams pass rush... BUT, I suspect that it is because Crabtree is gone, and Carr does not have trust in any of his WR, but especially not Cooper.  Of Cooper's 4 targets (counting the penalty target) I think only one was with Cooper more than 8 yards downfield, and only one was with a defender within 3 yards of Cooper at the time of release.  

If Gruden does not change this quickly, I fear Amari may drop to the status of barely rosterable.  

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42 minutes ago, jm192 said:

Carr looked like a rookie.  Checkdowns to RB and TE all night. 

Check down means he went through his progressions, didn't see his primary option open so he checked down to a back or receiver to salvage some yards on the play. 

That is not what happened last night.

His first option was the running back or tight end. 

My .02 is that gruden saw that the strength of the rams defense is their line and shutdown corners so he wanted to attack the linebackers. The rams lost 3 of their starting linebackers this off season and didn't replace them with studs. 

But they did have Donald, suh, Marcus peters and aqib talib.

So they didn't attack the corners or the interior of the line.  They ran lynch off tackle and passed to him.  They threw to cook again and again. They threw to Richard. And it was working pretty well in the first half.  

Cooper was blatantly doubled early on.  I remember a couple plays where there were 3 d backs on his side of the field with just him and one other receiver.  So they attacked the weakness of the d.

If anything i think we saw that the rams may be a good team to target for tight ends in dfs. Although they play Ricky seals Jones next week so I wouldn't go too crazy. 

But I don't think we've seen the "Gruden offense" yet.  

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2 minutes ago, bostonfred said:

Check down means he went through his progressions, didn't see his primary option open so he checked down to a back or receiver to salvage some yards on the play. 

That is not what happened last night.

His first option was the running back or tight end. 

My .02 is that gruden saw that the strength of the rams defense is their line and shutdown corners so he wanted to attack the linebackers. The rams lost 3 of their starting linebackers this off season and didn't replace them with studs. 

But they did have Donald, suh, Marcus peters and aqib talib.

So they didn't attack the corners or the interior of the line.  They ran lynch off tackle and passed to him.  They threw to cook again and again. They threw to Richard. And it was working pretty well in the first half.  

Cooper was blatantly doubled early on.  I remember a couple plays where there were 3 d backs on his side of the field with just him and one other receiver.  So they attacked the weakness of the d.

If anything i think we saw that the rams may be a good team to target for tight ends in dfs. Although they play Ricky seals Jones next week so I wouldn't go too crazy. 

But I don't think we've seen the "Gruden offense" yet.  

Yup this is good analysis.

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5 minutes ago, bostonfred said:

Check down means he went through his progressions, didn't see his primary option open so he checked down to a back or receiver to salvage some yards on the play. 

That is not what happened last night.

His first option was the running back or tight end. 

My .02 is that gruden saw that the strength of the rams defense is their line and shutdown corners so he wanted to attack the linebackers. The rams lost 3 of their starting linebackers this off season and didn't replace them with studs. 

This approach falls apart if you don't even look downfield first and throw it there once in a while.  

When you don't do that, the safeties and eventually even the CBs starting cheating up... and that is what led to both the dump offs losing their effectiveness and the final Pick.

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1 hour ago, bostonfred said:

Check down means he went through his progressions, didn't see his primary option open so he checked down to a back or receiver to salvage some yards on the play. 

That is not what happened last night.

His first option was the running back or tight end. 

My .02 is that gruden saw that the strength of the rams defense is their line and shutdown corners so he wanted to attack the linebackers. The rams lost 3 of their starting linebackers this off season and didn't replace them with studs. 

But they did have Donald, suh, Marcus peters and aqib talib.

So they didn't attack the corners or the interior of the line.  They ran lynch off tackle and passed to him.  They threw to cook again and again. They threw to Richard. And it was working pretty well in the first half.  

Cooper was blatantly doubled early on.  I remember a couple plays where there were 3 d backs on his side of the field with just him and one other receiver.  So they attacked the weakness of the d.

If anything i think we saw that the rams may be a good team to target for tight ends in dfs. Although they play Ricky seals Jones next week so I wouldn't go too crazy. 

But I don't think we've seen the "Gruden offense" yet.  

I hope that you are correct. 

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Rams adjusted. Raiders could not or would not adjust to the Rams adjustments.

Carr is showing the limitations that caused him to fall to the 2nd round more than ever. His brother's NFL experience has Carr scared in the pocket. He's been this way to some degree his entire career and injuries the last two years seem to have made it worse. Not sure if it's fixable. Can't be scared and be effective as an NFL QB.

Whoever suggested Amari may not have the desire to be great up thread I think is spot on. Tons of talent but dude is soft (by football standards). He is most effective as a #2 WR, and has been miscast as a #1 his whole career.

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1 hour ago, Brisco54 said:

This approach falls apart if you don't even look downfield first and throw it there once in a while.  

When you don't do that, the safeties and eventually even the CBs starting cheating up... and that is what led to both the dump offs losing their effectiveness and the final Pick.

This is EXACTLY what happened to Arizona & S.Bradford.   pathetic to see in today's NFL.

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35 minutes ago, LawFitz said:

Rams adjusted. Raiders could not or would not adjust to the Rams adjustments.

Carr is showing the limitations that caused him to fall to the 2nd round more than ever. His brother's NFL experience has Carr scared in the pocket. He's been this way to some degree his entire career and injuries the last two years seem to have made it worse. Not sure if it's fixable. Can't be scared and be effective as an NFL QB.

Whoever suggested Amari may not have the desire to be great up thread I think is spot on. Tons of talent but dude is soft (by football standards). He is most effective as a #2 WR, and has been miscast as a #1 his whole career.

I don't know if he is/was scared/soft, but good god, was he getting rid of the ball quick.  When it's Tom Brady getting rid of the ball before the D can get to the spot of the pass & it leads to YAC, that's great.  When it's Carr throwing to a RB who is surrounded by 4 Rams, or blindly chucking a ball up for a pick-6, it is kind of disgusting.

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1 hour ago, bostonfred said:

Check down means he went through his progressions, didn't see his primary option open so he checked down to a back or receiver to salvage some yards on the play. 

That is not what happened last night.

His first option was the running back or tight end. 

My .02 is that gruden saw that the strength of the rams defense is their line and shutdown corners so he wanted to attack the linebackers. The rams lost 3 of their starting linebackers this off season and didn't replace them with studs. 

But they did have Donald, suh, Marcus peters and aqib talib.

So they didn't attack the corners or the interior of the line.  They ran lynch off tackle and passed to him.  They threw to cook again and again. They threw to Richard. And it was working pretty well in the first half.  

Cooper was blatantly doubled early on.  I remember a couple plays where there were 3 d backs on his side of the field with just him and one other receiver.  So they attacked the weakness of the d.

If anything i think we saw that the rams may be a good team to target for tight ends in dfs. Although they play Ricky seals Jones next week so I wouldn't go too crazy. 

But I don't think we've seen the "Gruden offense" yet.  

I think you're right for the most part.  But when you're down double digits late, you obviously can't keep getting 5 yards here and there with Richard.  It concerns me for Coopers value that in those instances that Carr wasn't airing it out more. 

 

 

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Raiders O went 3 and out 3 times in a row from the beginning of the 3rd quarter to the beginning of the 4th. 4th possession they made a 1st down (to Cook of course), and then Carr threw that meatball lob that got picked in the flat. They barely ran any plays at all in the 2nd half. Even just a couple more first downs might have changed a lot. 

That last interception was a target to Cook. As mentioned, the DBs and safeties started cheating up - it was obvious Carr was *only* throwing to Cook and Richard. You absolutely have to throw it vertical once in awhile. Not sure how much of that is on Gruden vs Carr. If I were coaching I would not tolerate such chicken #### QB play, I know that. 

 

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1 hour ago, doeseatplace said:

Yikes!

Paul Gutierrez‏

@PGutierrezESPN

Jon Gruden: "We'll have to get Amari going this week...easier said than done."

Not blaming you, I know this part of his quote has been picked up by fantasy outlets but this is a good example misquoting someone or quoting them out of context. What he was saying was that it's easier said then done against Denver. Link and whole quote below.

http://www.espn.com/espn/now?nowId=21-41031869-4

He can get vertical. No question he can get vertical. We’ll have to get Amari going this week (in Denver). It’s easier said than done. When you’ve got (Bradley) Roby and Chris Harris and a fierce pass rush that doesn’t let you drop back and let these routes develop - you’ve got guys that can really hum around the edge - you’ve got to be creative in how you get guys the ball deep. And we’re going to have to try to get Amari going.”

 

 

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Hard to believe:

 

But back to Cooper and Nelson and some stats that might qualify as startling. According to SportRadar’s Next Gen stats, Cooper averaged 3.61 yards of separation per throw on Monday. That’s the average of how far away the closest defender was on each of Carr’s pass attempts. Nelson was right behind at 3.59 yards. Those averages were the eighth- and ninth-highest in Week 1 among 69 starting wide receivers.

 

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22 minutes ago, menobrown said:

Not blaming you, I know this part of his quote has been picked up by fantasy outlets but this is a good example misquoting someone or quoting them out of context. What he was saying was that it's easier said then done against Denver. Link and whole quote below.

http://www.espn.com/espn/now?nowId=21-41031869-4

He can get vertical. No question he can get vertical. We’ll have to get Amari going this week (in Denver). It’s easier said than done. When you’ve got (Bradley) Roby and Chris Harris and a fierce pass rush that doesn’t let you drop back and let these routes develop - you’ve got guys that can really hum around the edge - you’ve got to be creative in how you get guys the ball deep. And we’re going to have to try to get Amari going.”

 

 

Great job, @menobrown -- in this day and age of fake news and style over substance when it comes to news, it's more important than ever to get full context.

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1 hour ago, menobrown said:

Not blaming you, I know this part of his quote has been picked up by fantasy outlets but this is a good example misquoting someone or quoting them out of context. What he was saying was that it's easier said then done against Denver. Link and whole quote below.

http://www.espn.com/espn/now?nowId=21-41031869-4

He can get vertical. No question he can get vertical. We’ll have to get Amari going this week (in Denver). It’s easier said than done. When you’ve got (Bradley) Roby and Chris Harris and a fierce pass rush that doesn’t let you drop back and let these routes develop - you’ve got guys that can really hum around the edge - you’ve got to be creative in how you get guys the ball deep. And we’re going to have to try to get Amari going.”

 

 

Thanks for following up.  I'm a Cooper owner who's urged patience when posters in this thread talked about dropping him after one game. My concern is how Gruden expects to do this...it's easier said than done against Denver (twice), the Chargers (twice), Seattle, Arizona, Baltimore, Pittsburgh and maybe Cleveland now. Maybe I'm wrong, but it doesn't feel like  they even planned on trying to get the ball deep to him last night. I'm just not sure there is a well-developed plan, besides bringing Martavis Bryant back (!)

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Hope Cooper gets it going because it makes Raider games more fun to watch, but Monday night just looked like a continuation of 2017. 

He seems like a guy who loses interest if he isn’t targeted early. I only watch the Raiders when it’s the only game on (Thursday, Sunday night or Monday night) so maybe I’m off here.  The KC game where he went off last year, they targeted him early and often and he played hard. Monday night, he wasn’t targeted much and kind of went through the motions. How much passion does he have for the game?

Maybe they need to make sure he gets targets early. Put him in the slot and get him 2-3 catches in the first quarter.  Maybe that would motivate him. Maybe have him watch film of Cook from Monday and see someone playing with passion. They need to do something because right now, he is a waste of space. 

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4 hours ago, efactor said:

Hope Cooper gets it going because it makes Raider games more fun to watch, but Monday night just looked like a continuation of 2017. 

He seems like a guy who loses interest if he isn’t targeted early. I only watch the Raiders when it’s the only game on (Thursday, Sunday night or Monday night) so maybe I’m off here.  The KC game where he went off last year, they targeted him early and often and he played hard. Monday night, he wasn’t targeted much and kind of went through the motions. How much passion does he have for the game?

Maybe they need to make sure he gets targets early. Put him in the slot and get him 2-3 catches in the first quarter.  Maybe that would motivate him. Maybe have him watch film of Cook from Monday and see someone playing with passion. They need to do something because right now, he is a waste of space. 

I don't think he loses interest. I don't have Game Pass so can't see his routes develop but per Next Gen Stats he was getting separation and also was I think #6 in average MPH among WR's while running routes, right under Tyreek. This to me just means he was not loafing.

I just read a tweet attributed Greg Cosell, who does have All-22 access, this it that tweet: .@gregcosell on @Midday180: Amari Cooper looked dynamically explosive. Carr was tentative, unwilling to turn it loose. They need to develop an effective intermediate passing game. They had none. It was all Cook. WRs non-factors. #Raiders

 

ETA-more on him being open but Carr just not delivering.

Gruden: “Cooper was open deep, he was open a couple times. For whatever reason, we didn’t go there.”

Puzzling situation to me because it's hard to pin this on all Carr when Cooper had two solid seasons with him already but he did look tentative to me.  For me the concern I have right now is not if Amari can get open or is giving max effort, it's if Carr has lost trust in Amari or trust in himself.

 

Edited by menobrown
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On 9/11/2018 at 0:50 PM, bostonfred said:

Check down means he went through his progressions, didn't see his primary option open so he checked down to a back or receiver to salvage some yards on the play. 

That is not what happened last night.

His first option was the running back or tight end. 

My .02 is that gruden saw that the strength of the rams defense is their line and shutdown corners so he wanted to attack the linebackers. The rams lost 3 of their starting linebackers this off season and didn't replace them with studs. 

But they did have Donald, suh, Marcus peters and aqib talib.

So they didn't attack the corners or the interior of the line.  They ran lynch off tackle and passed to him.  They threw to cook again and again. They threw to Richard. And it was working pretty well in the first half.  

Cooper was blatantly doubled early on.  I remember a couple plays where there were 3 d backs on his side of the field with just him and one other receiver.  So they attacked the weakness of the d.

If anything i think we saw that the rams may be a good team to target for tight ends in dfs. Although they play Ricky seals Jones next week so I wouldn't go too crazy. 

But I don't think we've seen the "Gruden offense" yet.  

PUBLISHED WED SEP 12 4:00:02 P.M. ET 2018 

(RotoWire) Coach Jon Gruden said Cooper was open deep a couple times in Monday's 33-13 loss to the Rams, Vic Tafur of The Athletic reports.

Analysis: Per Scott Bair of NBC Sports Bay Area, Gruden acknowledged that Monday's gameplan sought to take advantage of Jared Cook and Jalen Richard's matchups against an inexperienced group of linebackers. Cooper, on the other hand, was forced to do battle with one of the top cornerback groups in the league, finishing with just one catch for nine yards on three targets. The stat line remains somewhat concerning, but we at least need to consider the possibility that it was largely a product of a unique gameplan. It also sounds as if Derek Carr could've done a better job pushing the ball downfield to Cooper instead of settling for shorter throws to Richard and Cook. For what it's worth, Gruden talked up Cooper's role as the No. 1 receiver on multiple occasions throughout the offseason. The 24-year-old wideout gets another touch matchup Week 2 in Denver

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Carr's deep ball -- in strength and accuracy -- has been suspect since his back injury.

This, along with going against one of, if not the, best pass-rushing DL lines in teh NFL, contributed to him not taking that chance. 

Gameplan was clear to get the ball out of Carr's hands quickly and take advantage of the intermediate routes -- disagree with Cosell in that regard, as the Raiders do have that skill, and that was entirely what they were trying to exploit with Cook and Richard.

Carr just looked uncomfortable and while Cooper was open a few times, he was mostly doubled and shut down by one of the best secondaries. 

I don't blame Carr for not targeting Cooper given gameplan. I do blame him for the horrid decision making, and the inability to get the ball to Cooper deep when he can get past coverage.

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10 minutes ago, Manster said:

I'll be sitting Cooper because of Derek "Deer in the headlights" Carr.....Von miller will be lickin his chops

I’m sure Aaron Donald was licking his chops too, but other than the one play where his sack was erased by penalty, Carr was able to throw the ball away faster than Donald could arrive.

I’m sure Carr can get the ball across the sideline marker faster than Von can reach him as well.

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Last yr cooper just couldn’t catch the ball. Even Carr lost trust for him in the end zone as the season went on.

With that one game cooper went off last year he still only caught like 12 of his 25 targets. And if I remember, Carr only targeted Crabtree in the endzone about 4 plays in a row for the game winning td. 

Monday’s game looks like cooper is not over his hand issues. I wouldn’t be surprised if Nelson and Cook become the big beneficiaries of the offense 

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14 minutes ago, DocHolliday said:

I thought  Cooper wasn't getting open but it sounds like game plan and Carr were to blame for the horrible game 1.  

It also sounds like he was getting open a little bit too.

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Amari Cooper - WR -  Raiders

Raiders OC Greg Olson said the team plans to move Amari Cooper around the formation "a lot."

Olson said the same is true of Jared Cook. "Critical to our success," Olson emphasized. Olson and coach Jon Gruden lived up to that pledge on Monday, running Cooper out of the slot on 45.2 percent of his routes. That's compared to 21.8 percent in 2017. Cooper had just one catch for nine yards on three targets, but Gruden believes he got open plenty, and not so subtly admonished Derek Carr for passing up open looks to his No. 1 wideout. It's going to be hard for Cooper to get going against Chris Harris and company in Week 2.

Source: Vic Tafur on Twitter 

Sep 13 - 2:32 PM

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5 minutes ago, Faust said:

Raiders OC Greg Olson...

I believe I said something to this effect when it happened but my enthusiasm for the Jon Gruden hiring immediately died when he hired Olson.

Has Olson ever been a good OC? Ever? 10 seasons as an OC, one top ten rushing offense (only two top 16), 2 top 10 passing offenses (only 3 in the top 16). One top 10 scoring offense (2 in the top 16).

How in the holy #### does this guy still have a job in the NFL? You can say all you want about how Gruden is the OC and blahblahblah it doesn't change the fact that Olson shouldn't be in an NFL locker room. IMO his mere presence infects NFL offenses with Football Leprosy (it's like Space Herpes only different but not really).

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