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WR Amari Cooper, CLE (6 Viewers)

NeverEnough said:
I was just offered Dalvin Cook plus one of the following players (Breida, Golladay, Cooper or J. Gordon) for Kupp in PPR dynasty. I love Kupp, but I think I might have to take this, but go w/Golladay. Thoughts?
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I'd take Cook over Kupp straight-up, much less with Golladay, Cooper, or Flash added.

I'm thinking you better find a computer now. ;)

 
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Football Jones said:
I think you're misjudging my post. I like the move in general, but it's a day-2 pick for what will very likely be a half-season rental.

You guys will theoretically get a 4th if Tate signs elsewhere in the offseason, but the compensatory picks are at the end of the round. BIG difference in a day-2 pick as opposed to the end of the 4th. The talent starts dropping off rather quickly in day-3.

Still, if Tate helps you guys win a SB, it will have been WELL worth it.
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it's a day 2 pick for a half season of a very good football players vs a day 1 pick for a year and a half of a player who may or may not be any good

 
Football Jones said:
I think you're misjudging my post. I like the move in general, but it's a day-2 pick for what will very likely be a half-season rental.

You guys will theoretically get a 4th if Tate signs elsewhere in the offseason, but the compensatory picks are at the end of the round. BIG difference in a day-2 pick as opposed to the end of the 4th. The talent starts dropping off rather quickly in day-3.

Still, if Tate helps you guys win a SB, it will have been WELL worth it.
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No, I am disagreeing that the Eagles trading a 3rd round pick for a WR who they probably won't resign but will probably get a 4th round compensation pick, means they must feel he is the missing puzzle piece. They gave up a little bit of draft capital to get a player that they hope will help them win this year. Smart teams do that when they have a franchise QB who they feel can lead them to a championship.

 
Skeletore Eh said:
it's a day 2 pick for a half season of a very good football players vs a day 1 pick for a year and a half of a player who may or may not be any good
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LOL. I like your comparison between Cooper & what he's done in his short career as a 24-year old as opposed to the 30-year old Tate, but I digress.

Regardless, the two trades can't compare.

You guys need to win the SB for that deal to pan out. Period. Don't get me wrong, though, I like the aggressiveness.

Anyway, we get an extra year of Cooper on contract & he's the type of player you don't mind franchising after that if we have to.

Different trades for different reasons.

 
dhockster said:
No, I am disagreeing that the Eagles trading a 3rd round pick for a WR who they probably won't resign but will probably get a 4th round compensation pick, means they must feel he is the missing puzzle piece. They gave up a little bit of draft capital to get a player that they hope will help them win this year. Smart teams do that when they have a franchise QB who they feel can lead them to a championship.
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Yeah, no sense comparing deals.

Like I said, different trades for different reasons.

Your window is now. Older team, etc. You're taking a shot.

I like it in general.

 
Skeletore Eh said:
this is just a laughable stance.   similar to dak over wentz.  but i digress
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You don't think you need to win the SB giving a day-2 pick for a rental?

I'd think that's the EXACT reason Howie did it. It's not the end of the world if you don't win the SB this year, but common sense says you do for that deal to be worth it.

Like I said, I applaud the move. I like aggressive trades like that in general.

 
Football Jones said:
You don't think you need to win the SB giving a day-2 pick for a rental?

I'd think that's the EXACT reason Howie did it. It's not the end of the world if you don't win the SB this year, but common sense says you do for that deal to be worth it.

Like I said, I applaud the move. I like aggressive trades like that in general.
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It’s a drop in draft capital from the late 3rd in 2019 to (likely) late 4th in 2020.  I think you’re grossly overstating how significant that it.  

Obviously they’re doing this because they want to win another Super Bowl this season, but this move is immaterial to the long term outlook for their franchise if they don’t happen to accomplish that goal.  And I’m sure even Eagle’s ownership realizes that odds are heavily against them winning it again this year, Tate or not.  

 
SayWhat? said:
It’s a drop in draft capital from the late 3rd in 2019 to (likely) late 4th in 2020.  I think you’re grossly overstating how significant that it.  

Obviously they’re doing this because they want to win another Super Bowl this season, but this move is immaterial to the long term outlook for their franchise if they don’t happen to accomplish that goal.  And I’m sure even Eagle’s ownership realizes that odds are heavily against them winning it again this year, Tate or not.  
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I don't think I'm grossly overestimating the drop. If that were the case, we'd see more teams doing these types of deals.

A day-2 pick is a real risk for a 30-year old mid-tier skill position player on the last year of his contract, but I actually like the move as I've stated.

That doesn't make it any less risky, though.

 
Football Jones said:
I don't think I'm grossly overestimating the drop. If that were the case, we'd see more teams doing these types of deals.

A day-2 pick is a real risk for a 30-year old mid-tier skill position player on the last year of his contract, but I actually like the move as I've stated.

That doesn't make it any less risky, though.
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Have you not seen all the trades happening? And yes, the circumstances are different in each case, but in most cases teams that are trading for players tied up longer than Tate is are giving up much more than the Eagles did (i.e. the Cowboys for Cooper)

 
dhockster said:
Have you not seen all the trades happening? And yes, the circumstances are different in each case, but in most cases teams that are trading for players tied up longer than Tate is are giving up much more than the Eagles did (i.e. the Cowboys for Cooper)
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There would be a lot more trades of this nature if the drop wasn't considered a big deal.

Regardless, any trade is a risk. We have some things offsetting our risk with Cooper like age, another year on his contract, & potential franchising, but I believe Tate was a good risk if Howie felt like it wasn't happening without him.

Maybe no secondary help was available & he's putting more assets into the offense. Just outscore people. That's a reasonable way to go.

 
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Football Jones said:
You don't think you need to win the SB giving a day-2 pick for a rental?
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Not at all?  Do you need to win the SB in the next 2 years to make cooper's trade worth it?  Does Houston need to win the SB this year to make the DT trade worth it?  It's a very safe stance for you to take as it is unlikely we win the sb and you can say 'see that was a waste".    Winning the division and making playoffs and giving yourself a SHOT at a SB or building off the positives can easily be worth it.  With this mindset, 99% of all trades are a bad deal for teams.

 
Deamon said:
Not at all?  Do you need to win the SB in the next 2 years to make cooper's trade worth it?  Does Houston need to win the SB this year to make the DT trade worth it?  It's a very safe stance for you to take as it is unlikely we win the sb and you can say 'see that was a waste".    Winning the division and making playoffs and giving yourself a SHOT at a SB or building off the positives can easily be worth it.  With this mindset, 99% of all trades are a bad deal for teams.
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We have franchising potential with a player like Cooper, but when a team with a win-now window spends a day-2 pick on a flat out rental, a championship is why you do it.

I bet Howie would tell you the same thing. And like I said, it's not the end of the world if you DON'T win the SB.

 
Football Jones said:
We have franchising potential with a player like Cooper, but when a team with a win-now window spends a day-2 pick on a flat out rental, a championship is why you do it.

I bet Howie would tell you the same thing. And like I said, it's not the end of the world if you DON'T win the SB.
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can you just call it a 3rd rounder instead of a 'day 2 pick'?  It's quite the loaded phrase.  It was our 4th pick and might be near the end of the 3rd round.

Again, of course it was done with the hopes of winning the SB.  As was your Cooper trade.  As is every move everyone does.  If it doesn't net a SB, it does not mean it was a waste.  Houston doesn't have to win a sb this year (they likely won't) to make the DT trade worth it, do they?

 
Football Jones said:
I don't think I'm grossly overestimating the drop. If that were the case, we'd see more teams doing these types of deals.

A day-2 pick is a real risk for a 30-year old mid-tier skill position player on the last year of his contract, but I actually like the move as I've stated.

That doesn't make it any less risky, though.
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dhockster said:
Have you not seen all the trades happening? And yes, the circumstances are different in each case, but in most cases teams that are trading for players tied up longer than Tate is are giving up much more than the Eagles did (i.e. the Cowboys for Cooper)
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Football Jones said:
There would be a lot more trades of this nature if the drop wasn't considered a big deal.

Regardless, any trade is a risk. We have some things offsetting our risk with Cooper like age, another year on his contract, & potential franchising, but I believe Tate was a good risk if Howie felt like it wasn't happening without him.

Maybe no secondary help was available & he's putting more assets into the offense. Just outscore people. That's a reasonable way to go.
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I think the combination of (a) a proven veteran player (b) on the last year of his deal (c) on a team that's unlikely to make the playoffs (d) that has alternate viable options to plug in place of that player at his position coupled with (e) another team having a need at that same position (f) where that team considers itself a Super Bowl contender while (g) that team has a GM not afraid to make a trade and (h) that team being unlikely to re-sign the acquired player (i) and unlikely to spend more on free agents the next offseason than it will lose which will likely result in (j) gaining a 4th round compensatory pick the following year is so unique that it's a far more likely reason in why you don't see these deals like this happening as often than would be the price drop from a late 3rd to late 4th being considered that significant a consideration.   But that's my take as an unbiased observer with no ties to the Eagles (nor Cowboys). 

 
Deamon said:
can you just call it a 3rd rounder instead of a 'day 2 pick'?  It's quite the loaded phrase.  It was our 4th pick and might be near the end of the 3rd round.

Again, of course it was done with the hopes of winning the SB.  As was your Cooper trade.  As is every move everyone does.  If it doesn't net a SB, it does not mean it was a waste.  Houston doesn't have to win a sb this year (they likely won't) to make the DT trade worth it, do they?
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Semantics now? LOL.

It's easier to type day-2, but either way, it's a very nice pick.

Like I said, I'm betting Howie would say the same thing, but I digress.

 
Football Jones said:
Semantics now? LOL.

It's easier to type day-2, but either way, it's a very nice pick.

Like I said, I'm betting Howie would say the same thing, but I digress.
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Not NEAR as nice as a top 15 pick.  But I digress.

Again though, do you think Houston needs to win a title this year to make the DT trade worth it?

 
SayWhat? said:
I think the combination of (a) a proven veteran player (b) on the last year of his deal (c) on a team that's unlikely to make the playoffs (d) that has alternate viable options to plug in place of that player at his position coupled with (e) another team having a need at that same position (f) where that team considers itself a Super Bowl contender while (g) that team has a GM not afraid to make a trade and (h) that team being unlikely to re-sign the acquired player (i) and unlikely to spend more on free agents the next offseason than it will lose which will likely result in (j) gaining a 4th round compensatory pick the following year is so unique that it's a far more likely reason in why you don't see these deals like this happening as often than would be the price drop from a late 3rd to late 4th being considered that significant a consideration.   But that's my take as an unbiased observer with no ties to the Eagles (nor Cowboys). 
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Good point. I've learned to stop when it starts becoming Cowboys vs. Eagles, LOL.

I'm on record as liking both deals. Philly's deal has MUCH more urgency to it, but both can't be graded until later. 

For Philly, you can grade it immediately after the season. For Dallas, it's another year or so depending on franchising, etc.

 
Deamon said:
Not NEAR as nice as a top 15 pick.  But I digress.

Again though, do you think Houston needs to win a title this year to make the DT trade worth it?
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Of course. That's why they're doing it. A team without playoff aspirations wouldn't make that deal. Duh.

The difference in DT & Tate is the risk involved. You guys are simply risking more, but I digress.

 
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Deamon said:
can you just call it a 3rd rounder instead of a 'day 2 pick'?  It's quite the loaded phrase.  It was our 4th pick and might be near the end of the 3rd round.

Again, of course it was done with the hopes of winning the SB.  As was your Cooper trade.  As is every move everyone does.  If it doesn't net a SB, it does not mean it was a waste.  Houston doesn't have to win a sb this year (they likely won't) to make the DT trade worth it, do they?
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Amen to the bolded.  And throwing the likely 4th round comp pick on there lessens the significance of that "day 2" pick even more.  We're talking a 30-45 pick drop after 80+ players are off the board.  It's a drop, but it's not some elite prospect at that stage. 

 
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Football Jones said:
Of course. That's why they're doing it. A team without playoff aspirations wouldn't make that deal. Duh.

The difference in the DT deal & Tate is the risk involved. You guys are simply risking more.
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Playoff aspirations yes, but SB is different.  It's not a bad move for Houston to make this move.

Risking more?  It looks like around pick 80 we trade for Tate vs pick 119 Houston traded for DT.  I don't think that's MASSIVELY substantial where we need to win a SB for it to make sense. 

Putting ourselves in a POSITION to possibly win one makes it worthwhile for only a late 3rd round pick.  If we lose in OT of the SB this year and Tate led us there, the next day there isn't a person out there besides you who would say "that was a waste of the trade.  Didn't work out for them"

 
SayWhat? said:
Amen to the bolded.  And throwing the likely 4th round comp pick on there lessens the significance of that "day 2" pick even more.  We're talking a 30-45 pick drop after 80+ players are off the board.  It's a drop, but it's not some elite prospect at that stage. 
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It's a pretty significant drop, but it's really a matter of how much risk you want to take.

Losing a 3rd round pick isn't the end of the world for a pure rental, but make no mistake, it was done with the intention of trying to win the SB & you can grade it on that. if you fail, you lose a 3rd & life goes on.

It's not rocket science.

 
In short, both Houston & Philly risked picks to get to & WIN the SB.

The difference is the amount of risk involved.

The Cowboys risked even more in their deal, but have a bigger window to ultimately grade it & got a much younger player.

This isn't rocket surgery or brain science.

 
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Football Jones said:
It's a pretty significant drop, but it's really a matter of how much risk you want to take.

Losing a 3rd round pick isn't the end of the world for a pure rental, but make no mistake, it was done with the intention of trying to win the SB & you can grade it on that. if you fail, you lose a 3rd & life goes on.

It's not rocket science.
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And losing a 1st rounder was done with the intention of winning the division this year or a sb next year.  You're very quick to say "philly needs to win the sb this year or its a bad trade", yet with anything dallas, it's "oh we'll wait and see how it pans out, we have years to evaluate this".  It's very strange that you want to be quick to criticize other teams' moves but want to give it so much time to criticize any of your own. 

Tate could go off this year and win us games and help us make a run and it would be a waste.  Cooper could not do very much and it will be a good investment.  C'mon man, not even your own fans are on board with what you gave up for Cooper.

Guess we'll see how it all works out next week. 

 
Football Jones said:
In short, both Houston & Philly risked picks to get to & WIN the SB.

The difference is the amount of risk involved.

The Cowboys risked even more in their deal, but have a bigger window to ultimately grade it & got a much younger player.

This isn't rocket surgery or brain science.
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And they should be graded on the move at the time. 

If KC traded Mahomes for a 7th rounder to Dallas and then he blows his knee and career is over the next day... would you say Dallas made a bad trade?  No, they made a good trade. 

It's very easy when you have an agenda, to make the window of you being "wrong" so small (Philly winning the SB).

If Philly wins the division and hosts a playoff game, this deal will have been worth it.   It's not rocket science. 

 
Deamon said:
And losing a 1st rounder was done with the intention of winning the division this year or a sb next year.  You're very quick to say "philly needs to win the sb this year or its a bad trade", yet with anything dallas, it's "oh we'll wait and see how it pans out, we have years to evaluate this".  It's very strange that you want to be quick to criticize other teams' moves but want to give it so much time to criticize any of your own. 

Tate could go off this year and win us games and help us make a run and it would be a waste.  Cooper could not do very much and it will be a good investment.  C'mon man, not even your own fans are on board with what you gave up for Cooper.

Guess we'll see how it all works out next week. 
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Yeah, I'm curious how things work out.

Can the dynamics of Cooper stretching the field help the offense when he gets up to speed?

Will Cooper look good enough to legitimately franchise if we can't sign him to a long-term deal after 2019?

Etc.

BIG move for Dallas. I love the aggressiveness as opposed to the tight buttholes most NFL GMs have.

 
Football Jones said:
Yeah, I'm curious how things work out.

Can the dynamics of Cooper stretching the field help the offense when he gets up to speed?

Will Cooper look good enough to legitimately franchise if we can't sign him to a long-term deal after 2019?

Etc.

BIG move for Dallas. I love the aggressiveness as opposed to the tight buttholes most NFL GMs have.
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And if you don't win a SB or sign him long term, will you admit that this was a big over-payment and awful trade? 

Or will you want to see 'how it shakes out and how the compensatory pick you get back from him leaving does in a few years in Dallas"

 
Could somebody point me to the Cooper thread? You Eagles fans really need to start your own forum if you’re just gonna ruin every thread Cowboys related each and every time.

I mean I know you guys eat, breathe and sleep Dallas Cowboys but enough is enough.

 
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Deamon said:
And if you don't win a SB or sign him long term, will you admit that this was a big over-payment and awful trade? 

Or will you want to see 'how it shakes out and how the compensatory pick you get back from him leaving does in a few years in Dallas"
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We'll be graded just like you will be, only our grading window is longer.

 
Football Jones said:
I loved the move for Cooper, but I love it more now, LOL.

Philly giving a 3rd for Tate as a 30-year old AND in the last year of his contract shows what it takes to get a decent WR.

I think Tate will help them, but that's a day-2 pick for a half-season rental. And he's not the type of player you'll want to franchise.

Steep price for an older player, but if they repeat as SB champs, it'll be worth it.

In general, I like these aggressive moves, but you really have to be very careful about giving day-2 picks for 8 games, especially with an older player.

The Eagles must feel this is their missing puzzle piece.
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STEADYMOBBIN 22 said:
Could somebody point me to the Cooper thread? You Eagles fans really need to start your own forum if you’re just gonna ruin every thread Cowboys related each and every time.

I mean I know you guys eat, breathe and sleep Dallas Cowboys but enough is enough.
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It was all Cooper talk until Football Jones made a long post about the Eagles in this thread.

 
Skeletore Eh said:
do you even remember what you post from minute to minute?
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I'm going to cut you a break & assume you got mixed up, but the first quote was clearly referring to Philly risking more than Houston.

I've gone out of my way to avoid confrontation with Philly fans. This should be a reasonable discussion, but you, along with a few other thin-skinned posters make it so it's virtually impossible to do so.

 
Football Jones said:
I'm going to cut you a break & assume you got mixed up, but the first quote was clearly referring to Philly risking more than Houston.

I've gone out of my way to avoid confrontation with Philly fans. This should be a reasonable discussion, but you, along with a few other thin-skinned posters make it so it's virtually impossible to do so.
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This was supposed to be a thread about Cooper until you randomly posted in here about how much better you like your cooper deal now after the philly trade and proceeded to give your run down of the eagles trade in here. 

That's not going out of your way to avoid confrontation.

 
Football Jones said:
Long post? LOL.

I was comparing deals, both of which I stated I liked.

I simply said I liked our deal even better now seeing what it takes to get a decent WR.

:shrug:
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Yep, it just takes a late 3rd rounder.  It's unfortunate you had to use a day-1 pick on one.

But yes, you 'like the deal', yet 'dont think we have much of a chance to win the sb", yet "if we don't win the sb it's a bad trade".

Something's not adding up here alright. 

Anyways let's end this here.  I'm glad the Philly trade made you feel better about the Cooper trade and made you want to post about it in here. 

 
Deamon said:
Yep, it just takes a late 3rd rounder.  It's unfortunate you had to use a day-1 pick on one.

But yes, you 'like the deal', yet 'dont think we have much of a chance to win the sb", yet "if we don't win the sb it's a bad trade".

Something's not adding up here alright. 

Anyways let's end this here.  I'm glad the Philly trade made you feel better about the Cooper trade and made you want to post about it in here. 
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I wouldn't say it's a bad trade if you don't win the SB. I do like the deal.

The worst you can say about it is it didn't work & life goes on.

Big difference.

 
Back to Cooper...

I'm curious to see how quickly he gets integrated.

The bye week no doubt helped, but it's REALLY hard to get up to speed in the middle of the season.

 
sneakerfreak said:
Wondering what to expect going forward. Was burnt last year by Amari, went back to the well again this year, believing in Gruden's "we will feed him the ball" crap. I noticed one thing in "on the couch" last week and that was the assumption that Cooper had the most success out of the slot. Was wondering where he mostly lined up in his two first seasons where he produced 1000 yards seasons (I don't watch the Raiders much). I remember last year he had most of his success when they would be more creative with him (in motion, working out of the slot, instead of just lining him up outside where he would often face bump coverage disrupting his routes).

I took a look at PFF (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CoopAm00.htm) but did not see any stats on this. I did notice however that he was targeted much less last season compared to his first two seasons and that his catch percentage was at an all-time low at 50%. This season he's had his best catch percentage of his career (68%) which does give some hope for optimism (depends on whether Dak throws catchable balls I guess) assuming he will see an uptick in targets as well.

It seems most likely that Dallas will line him up outside and not in the slot (Beasley seems pretty locked in at that spot) which is a concern. Have no idea how creative they intend to be in their playcalling but this is Ezekiel's team so low volume for passing is probably expected. On that note Dez Bryant had 132 targets last year, if they intend to feed Amari like they did Dez, owners should be very happy.
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It has amazed me how many folk have ignored or not bothered to look this stat up before discussing Cooper 

 
STEADYMOBBIN 22 said:
Could somebody point me to the Cooper thread? You Eagles fans really need to start your own forum if you’re just gonna ruin every thread Cowboys related each and every time.

I mean I know you guys eat, breathe and sleep Dallas Cowboys but enough is enough.
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Football Jones brought up the Eagles trade to say he liked the trade, but based on what the Eagles gave up, the Eagles must win the Super Bowl for the trade to be successful. I have never seen a third round pick valued that highly.

I don't think us Eagles fans are obsessed with the Cowboys. I think we enjoy going after Cowboy fans who make outlandish comments with no real support.

 
Seems pretty simple to get to the bottom of this Tate/Eagles stuff:

Was the deal worth it if the Eagles...

Miss the playoffs? (Y/N)

Lose wildcard weekend? (Y/N)

Lose in the divisional round? (Y/N)

Lose in the NFCCG? (Y/N)

Lose in the SB? (Y/N)

Sounds like Football Jones answers "N" to all of the above. 

Others might answer "Y" somewhere along the way, or even "Y" to all.

 
davearm said:
Seems pretty simple to get to the bottom of this Tate/Eagles stuff:

Was the deal worth it if the Eagles...

Miss the playoffs? (Y/N)

Lose wildcard weekend? (Y/N)

Lose in the divisional round? (Y/N)

Lose in the NFCCG? (Y/N)

Lose in the SB? (Y/N)

Sounds like Football Jones answers "N" to all of the above. 

Others might answer "Y" somewhere along the way, or even "Y" to all.
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Nobody cares about the Eagles. 

Personally, speaking about Cooper and the Dallas Cowboys and nothing to do with any other teams.....

I couldn’t be happier. Dak has never in his life played with a true number 1 receiver. It sounds like a big problem was the offensive line coach and he’s gone. 

Im looking forward to the second half of the season and what Cooper can do by the end of it. 

Fantasy related, I think it’s about a sideways move. It’s obvious the cowboys will be intent on giving him the ball, but until the Oline improves and Dak gets more comfortable (plays better,) it will take a few weeks to get consistentcy. 

Cooper is moving to what is on paper a below average offense from a disfictional offense. 

 
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dhockster said:
Football Jones brought up the Eagles trade to say he liked the trade, but based on what the Eagles gave up, the Eagles must win the Super Bowl for the trade to be successful. I have never seen a third round pick valued that highly.

I don't think us Eagles fans are obsessed with the Cowboys. I think we enjoy going after Cowboy fans who make outlandish comments with no real support.
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Both sides are insufferable.

 
Silly me...I knew I'd eventually get suckered in again.

There was several pages of dialogue with Philly fans once Cooper was traded. Most of them thought we gave way too much, but nobody got bent out of shape. I debated it & moved on.

Fast forward to the Tate trade & when I mention I like it, but have some concerns, it's a whole different ballgame. :)

A reasonable discussion with them simply can't be done. The Tate trade, like most other trades, have potential issues. Period. So does our trade.

Philly fans don't get to NOT recognize it because you're Philly fans. LOL.

Bottom line, the Eagles need to win the Super Bowl for that deal to pan out. Duh.

The Cowboys will be graded on the same curve, but with a longer window.

 
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