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Merged Spygate thread (2 Viewers)

ConnSKINS26 said:
Or, they're the biggest morons in football history, which is not a label I'd think to give the Belichick Patriots. 
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While I also think we need to wait this one out and see what the tapes show, I’m not sure I agree with this. Belichick and the Pats organization have always come across as thinking they are above the law and can get away with whatever they want. Many very smart and successful people think this way. For all we know the Pats have been getting away with this once again for a long time. The “excuse” so far doesn’t seem plausible but it’s far from impossible this was a one time thing and was innocent.

Now we wait and see.

 
Dr. Octopus said:
Now we wait and see.
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*nods slowly*

Yep. 

And they'll get away with it again, because something tells me that the Patriots are like the politician-lawyers who actually ask you to define what "is" is in a legal proceeding, which is so ballsy and arrogant but confounding and difficult that, well, wrap your head around it.  No fun prosecuting people like that.  

 
Does anyone really believe the league is actually going to do something about the Patriots rampant cheating? Does anyone think Bill B gets a permanent ban from the sport?

Imagine this.Twitler, who was raging against kneeling last year, has been silent on the NFL and is allowing his followers to watch the NFL again. If he changes course and starts railing against the NFL for an unfair punishment against his buddies Bill B, Kraft, and Brady, the NFL has another ratings/seat filling problem.

 
What should be the punishment?  Forfeit the game against the Bengals?  Lose draft picks?  Ban from playoffs?  I get to sleep Gisele? 

 
Weren't there lofty statements by Kraft and/or BB after the first one that nothing like this would ever happen again and if so BB would be summarily dismissed?  So long ago I forget. 

 
Belichick showed his fascination for loopholes earlier this year.  He is always looking for advantage.  He is a winner, but not an honorable man or with admirable character.  They will never rename the Lombardi for such a man, petty, petulant, but a winner.

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
Belichick showed his fascination for loopholes earlier this year.  He is always looking for advantage.  He is a winner, but not an honorable man or with admirable character.  They will never rename the Lombardi for such a man, petty, petulant, but a winner.
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Funny DW. I respect your thoughts, but I always thought this year's loophole pointing-out was done in a classy way in a totally meaningless game. They were up over thirty when he did that. He was either acting with class or showing up the NFL, but not twisting the knife.

I took a totally different read on that. What if he'd saved it for the Super Bowl? I'll bet that's how he looks at it. 

 
By the way, a similar situation happened with the Jets back in 2011 and no one said much about it.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/10/11/jets-explain-presence-of-camera-man-on-sidelines/

Much like the Jets situation, the documentary crew (which included freelancers not directly employed by the team) was filming out in the open, with Bengals employees nearby, filming from a location that would only see THE BACKS of the Bengals coaches. In an era where signals for both offense and defense are sent via headsets.

What are we talking about again?

 
JohnnyU said:
That doesn't mean we automatically convict because of past actions.  Let's wait until the truth comes out.
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Just catching up on the last few pages after reading the story. Funny to see you say this among your 40 or so posts on the topic over the last couple hours. 

You realize that you don’t have to spend your time in a topic that you think isn’t worthy of discussing until the full story comes out, right?

 
From The Athletic:

 This isn’t an over-the-shoulder of the advanced scout who is doing his job stuff. This is shooting the sideline. For an extended period of time. The egregious nature of the video is why it set off the firestorm it did during the game with the Bengals executives in the press box.
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Now the question is: who really ordered this filming, who knew about it, etc. NFL is undoubtedly requesting all communications involving this film. Also undoubtedly, the Patriots were smart enough to leave no digital trail.

 
"The Patriot Way" is systemic cheating.  Do whatever you can by exploiting weaknesses and gray areas in the rules and other teams to create small advantages in every aspect of the game.  Those small advantages add up and can tip the balance in a close game.  Win a few games you could've lost every season and you are appearing in the playoffs 10 straight years. 

 
Maybe it's nothing, maybe it's something. But I have a hard time believing it's nothing simply because this exact tactic was brought up in the 2015 article detailing the ways the Patriots cheated the system. I'm sure it's been brought up somewhere else in this thread, but I'm too lazy to look for it.

"Soon, advanced scouts would be sent to the games of upcoming Patriots' opponents to film the play signals. The scouts would go undercover as media members, with media credentials listed under "Patriots TV" or "Kraft Productions" and were prepared with excuses of what to say they were filming if security asked."

 
  Belichick's admitting they try to gain an advantage, incl this current situation... even against the Bengals.

1 hour ago~

"We're competitive and we'll try to be competitive in every area," Belichick said during a conference call with Cincinnati media Tuesday morning. "But we don't knowingly, intentionally want to do anything that's across the line.

"But since that's [Spygate] happened, I'd say we've tried to keep a good distance behind the line and not maybe take it as far as we would might have in the past. But it's never really fundamentally changed there"

🙈

 
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rockaction said:
Funny DW. I respect your thoughts, but I always thought this year's loophole pointing-out was done in a classy way in a totally meaningless game. They were up over thirty when he did that. He was either acting with class or showing up the NFL, but not twisting the knife.

I took a totally different read on that. What if he'd saved it for the Super Bowl? I'll bet that's how he looks at it. 
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I agree that is likely how he looks at it.  I also wonder though if he just cannot help himself.  If his nature is to always be looking to be smarter than those around him.  Some folks look to the spirit of matters, some to the letter of the law.  he is the latter type, in the extreme.  it is his nature to never stop analyzing.  he is like a shark which never stops swimming.  he has an insatiable need to be the smartest guy in the room and to let others know it.   Of course he is actually the smartest guy in the room, but he is incapable, in my opinion, of being self satisfied in that knowledge.  he has to actually go there and have external proof in showing others this or in showing himself. 

No worries.  he will go down as undeniably great and undeniably flawed.  Makes him human, I guess.

 
SHIZNITTTT said:
What should be the punishment?  Forfeit the game against the Bengals?  Lose draft picks?  Ban from playoffs?  I get to sleep Gisele? 
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If the NFL investigates and finds that the Patriots are telling the truth and that football operations were in no way involved, the Patriots should receive a $1M fine as repeat violators of the blanket ban on videoing another team’s sideline during a game. Doesn’t matter if it’s a contractor, for a PR piece, whatever. They represented the Patriots and broke a rule that the Patriots have already been punished for breaking before.

If the NFL finds conclusive evidence that football operations were involved in any way and that this was indeed cheating, Belichick and Ernie Adams should be instantly banished from the NFL for life and every achievement and record of theirs be given an asterisk. The NFL should then consider forcing Kraft to sell the team.

 
GroveDiesel said:
If the NFL investigates and finds that the Patriots are telling the truth and that football operations were in no way involved, the Patriots should receive a $1M fine as repeat violators of the blanket ban on videoing another team’s sideline during a game. Doesn’t matter if it’s a contractor, for a PR piece, whatever. They represented the Patriots and broke a rule that the Patriots have already been punished for breaking before.

If the NFL finds conclusive evidence that football operations were involved in any way and that this was indeed cheating, Belichick and Ernie Adams should be instantly banished from the NFL for life and every achievement and record of theirs be given an asterisk. The NFL should then consider forcing Kraft to sell the team.
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:yes:  

 
If the Patriots are cheating again (not saying they are at this point), why do they get caught so often?   Are they bad at cheating, or are they doing so much of it that it increases the likelihood of getting caught?  If they are cheating they are probably doing things we know nothing about.

 
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JohnnyU said:
If the Patriots are cheating again (not saying they are at this point), why do they caught so often?   Are they bad at cheating, or are they doing so much of it that it increases the likelihood of getting caught?  If they are cheating they are probably doing things we know nothing about.
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Because it's systemic!  They do anything and everything to try to gain an advantage whether it's on or over the line.  Bellichik says as much in his comments above.  Spy on practices and pregame warmups, videotape signals, deflate footballs, scramble communications, steal playbooks, deceptive injury reporting, and on and on.  You can't look at it in a vacuum of just the times they got caught - it's an organizational mantra.   

 
GroveDiesel said:
If the NFL investigates and finds that the Patriots are telling the truth and that football operations were in no way involved, the Patriots should receive a $1M fine as repeat violators of the blanket ban on videoing another team’s sideline during a game. Doesn’t matter if it’s a contractor, for a PR piece, whatever. They represented the Patriots and broke a rule that the Patriots have already been punished for breaking before.

If the NFL finds conclusive evidence that football operations were involved in any way and that this was indeed cheating, Belichick and Ernie Adams should be instantly banished from the NFL for life and every achievement and record of theirs be given an asterisk. The NFL should then consider forcing Kraft to sell the team.
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The problem is, I do not believe that Robert Kraft is the sole owner of the team. The Kraft Group technically owns the team and his son, at this point, essentially is the one running it. 

My concern is other teams have done similar improper videotaping, yet no one seemed to care. For example, back in the initial Spygate era, the Jets regularly taped games from on the field behind the end zone (technically not a spot you can tape things from although apparently opponents can consent to it). They denied any wrong doing and that was considered good enough. LINK

Linked earlier in this thread was another incident with the Jets filming on the sideline in 2011. There was no full court press on the Jets then either. LINK

I get that the Patriots have a shady history, but the league has demanded access to all sorts of the things from the Patriots over the years (electronic records, tapes, personal cell phones, etc.). Why not demand the same of other teams when another team does something against the rules? IMO, there could be plenty of juicy stuff out there on the Jets . . . but no one cares because it's the Jets.

 
Anarchy99 said:
The problem is, I do not believe that Robert Kraft is the sole owner of the team. The Kraft Group technically owns the team and his son, at this point, essentially is the one running it. 

My concern is other teams have done similar improper videotaping, yet no one seemed to care. For example, back in the initial Spygate era, the Jets regularly taped games from on the field behind the end zone (technically not a spot you can tape things from although apparently opponents can consent to it). They denied any wrong doing and that was considered good enough. LINK

Linked earlier in this thread was another incident with the Jets filming on the sideline in 2011. There was no full court press on the Jets then either. LINK

I get that the Patriots have a shady history, but the league has demanded access to all sorts of the things from the Patriots over the years (electronic records, tapes, personal cell phones, etc.). Why not demand the same of other teams when another team does something against the rules? IMO, there could be plenty of juicy stuff out there on the Jets . . . but no one cares because it's the Jets.
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If I was the commissioner, or was on the competition committee or whatever, I would want a full investigation into the Jets alleged behavior as well.

Can I now take issue with the Pats’ continued cheating?

 
Mookie said:
Because it's systemic!  They do anything and everything to try to gain an advantage whether it's on or over the line.  Bellichik says as much in his comments above.  Spy on practices and pregame warmups, videotape signals, deflate footballs, scramble communications, steal playbooks, deceptive injury reporting, and on and on.  You can't look at it in a vacuum of just the times they got caught - it's an organizational mantra.   
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Here's the problem. People love their torches and pitchforks when it comes to NE . . . whether it is warranted or not. In what you just listed, THE LEAGUE is 100% in charge of the headsets and game day communication. They bring their own people and the Patriots have NOTHING to do with it. None. They don't touch the equipment and the league has their own personnel in charge of it.

As far as injury reporting goes, they comply to the designations as set forth by the league. If players miss portions of practice, they report it. If they don't participate in full practices, they list their players as questionable. Those are the rules set forth by the league. Yet people STILL get on them for deceptive injury reporting. Deceptive injury reporting is when teams DON'T list players that are hurt . . . and those teams only get fined.

 
If you cheat on your wife and get caught, you lose the right to have a meeting alone in a hotel room with a woman. You might be doing nothing wrong, but you lost the benefit of the doubt.

Bill B just does not care. He will just stretch the rules in new ways over and over and force the league to do something about it. It is time for the other owners to step up and say they have had enough  

 
RUSF18 said:
If I was the commissioner, or was on the competition committee or whatever, I would want a full investigation into the Jets alleged behavior as well.

Can I now take issue with the Pats’ continued cheating?
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I've posted on this for years. NE straddles the line on 100 areas that if both feet were over the line would be considered clear cases of cheating. I firmly believe that all teams do something that skirts the rules, but most teams only do it in 5 areas instead of 100. I truly believe that BB sits there and when he hears about these things actually thinks "Oh, is that all they found out . . . I thought it would be something more serious."

I have also posted that fans of other teams might want to have their team live a little bit more on the edge if NE stays competitive year after year by bending the rules. Would Lions fans be happier never winning a title or maybe becoming a little more covert and winning something for a change?

We'll see how this one turns out, but in today's day and age with defensive plays transmitted electronically, I am not sure there is much useful information to learn from watching what coaches do on the sidelines. And as far as I know, there are still places that teams are allowed to record on field stuff from in the stadium, and given the resolution of cameras today, they could easily break down anything that happens on the field. Maybe NE did something wrong again, maybe they didn't. We'll have to see what else comes out about it.

 
The Duff Man said:
If you cheat on your wife and get caught, you lose the right to have a meeting alone in a hotel room with a woman. You might be doing nothing wrong, but you lost the benefit of the doubt.

Bill B just does not care. He will just stretch the rules in new ways over and over and force the league to do something about it. It is time for the other owners to step up and say they have had enough  
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They did. It was called Deflategate.

 
Dr. Dan said:
yeah we should all lie, cheat, and steal to get ahead in sports... hell, to get ahead in life. 

"what?! I didnt know I had to report my entire year's income on my taxes..."
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Not to rehash the same arguments over and over again . . . but every team has done something that has gone against the rules (or had players that have broken the rules). This isn't news. The issue becomes how often and how severe (and how much each individual person can tolerate the behavior).

For example . . .

Plenty of teams have had players that used PED's and gotten suspended. Again, not news. But what if there have been 20 players from the same organization caught? Is that a problem or an organizational issue?

I am sure that plenty of teams have coached offensive or defensive players on how to get away with holding. Technically that is coaching players to break on field rules. But most will say that is not an issue for them.

Multiple teams over the years have been cited for things like salary cap infractions or not properly reporting injuries. Yet most people don't care unless it's NE . . . and then they accuse them of malfeasance even when they do follow the rules.

Other teams have been cited for videotaping or electronic communication . . . yet they get slaps on the wrist and no one cares because usually the teams are not perennial contenders. Cheating or not cheating?

Other teams or QB's have openly admitted to manipulating the footballs, whether it be by having the football not inflated to the set range, scuffing up the ball to make it easier to grip, etc. Yet no one cares because it's not NE. Is that not going against the intent of having a fair and level playing field? Tom Brady liked his footballs softer, Aaron Rodgers liked his footballs harder. Either way, did that really make much impact to the actual play on the field (assuming that NE did anything to the footballs in the Colts game). Plus the inflation level was a random data point that was accepted by the league that came for the football manufacturer. The league was so gung ho about recording the inflation levels of footballs that they went on to release none of their findings. One would think if NE had really done something so heinous that they would have RELISHED the chance to show that they did something to the footballs. Yet no other information came out or was released by the NFL.

Look, I get it, I am going to get flack on this as a NE fan and that's fine. I get BB is shady as shady can be. He makes no bones about trying to get an advantage through every angle possible. If people are dead set against that, I certainly am not going to change anyone's mind. If the league wants to punish them again, so be it. But it would be nice on occasion if the league looked at other teams with more scrutiny sometimes.

 
Anarchy99 said:
Not to rehash the same arguments over and over again . . . but every team has done something that has gone against the rules (or had players that have broken the rules). This isn't news. The issue becomes how often and how severe (and how much each individual person can tolerate the behavior).

For example . . .

Plenty of teams have had players that used PED's and gotten suspended. Again, not news. But what if there have been 20 players from the same organization caught? Is that a problem or an organizational issue?

I am sure that plenty of teams have coached offensive or defensive players on how to get away with holding. Technically that is coaching players to break on field rules. But most will say that is not an issue for them.

Multiple teams over the years have been cited for things like salary cap infractions or not properly reporting injuries. Yet most people don't care unless it's NE . . . and then they accuse them of malfeasance even when they do follow the rules.

Other teams have been cited for videotaping or electronic communication . . . yet they get slaps on the wrist and no one cares because usually the teams are not perennial contenders. Cheating or not cheating?

Other teams or QB's have openly admitted to manipulating the footballs, whether it be by having the football not inflated to the set range, scuffing up the ball to make it easier to grip, etc. Yet no one cares because it's not NE. Is that not going against the intent of having a fair and level playing field? Tom Brady liked his footballs softer, Aaron Rodgers liked his footballs harder. Either way, did that really make much impact to the actual play on the field (assuming that NE did anything to the footballs in the Colts game). Plus the inflation level was a random data point that was accepted by the league that came for the football manufacturer. The league was so gung ho about recording the inflation levels of footballs that they went on to release none of their findings. One would think if NE had really done something so heinous that they would have RELISHED the chance to show that they did something to the footballs. Yet no other information came out or was released by the NFL.

Look, I get it, I am going to get flack on this as a NE fan and that's fine. I get BB is shady as shady can be. He makes no bones about trying to get an advantage through every angle possible. If people are dead set against that, I certainly am not going to change anyone's mind. If the league wants to punish them again, so be it. But it would be nice on occasion if the league looked at other teams with more scrutiny sometimes.
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Not so sure pointing the finger at other teams is a good argument.   it's like the little boy who stole two cookies and got caught and pointed a finger at his brother because he stole the first one and didn't get caught.  It's not a good excuse.

 
Dr. Dan said:
yeah we should all lie, cheat, and steal to get ahead in sports... hell, to get ahead in life. 

"what?! I didnt know I had to report my entire year's income on my taxes..."
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And also in the oldies but goodies categories, trying to gain advantages in sports goes back to the dawn of time. I coached youth sports for close to two decades, and towns / teams / coaches ALWAYS tried to get away with shady things. I personally have seen teams recalibrate scales so opposing kids would not make weight. I have seen teams have players fake injuries so they would not have to get their mandated playing time. I have witnessed coaches INTENTIONALLY misinform their poor players of game times or locations so they would miss games (and thus not have to play). I have seen teams swap out age appropriate players with their older siblings AFTER weigh ins. I have seen teams videotape opposing team practices from rooftops and trees.

I have seen home teams with no timeouts consistently ask for measurements to stop the clock on times when they were 4 yards short of a first down and then run to the line to be able to save time. I have seen teams add ringers to their rosters just for tournaments. I have seen teams have players where different uniform numbers so they could pitch more innings in tournaments. This has run from elementary school to high school levels.

Should this behavior just be allowed to go on? Of course not. But IT HAPPENS. ALL. THE TIME. Essentailly, competitive youth sports is just as (if not more) corrupt than professional sports. I would be happy to hear out to correct this type of stuff . . . but there would be no coaches, no teams, and no players left to play if everyone of them got a death sentence.

 
Ian Rapoport✔@RapSheet

From NFL Now: The league feels inclined to believe the #Patriots' intentions on videotaping the #Bengals, but that doesn't necessarily mean there won't be a penalty.

Token fine, we all move on.

Honestly, those who think that this was some kind of "smoking gun" of cheating are going to be disappointed. This thing never really passed the smell test for a lot of reasons.

 
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