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Just say No! ...To the War on Drugs (1 Viewer)

C

CowboysFromHell

Footballguy
Spin-off from the threads on recent police shootings. Should the War on Drugs be ended and all drugs be made legal in the United States? My coming-in position is: No, don't be ridiculous. Convince me otherwise.

To get us started, a quote from the other thread:

Alonzo Mosely said:
For me, the fact that we are far and away the leader in incarcerations per capita. The main reason for that is the criminalization of what is a victimless crime. We then compound that by locking these people up with violent offenders which will often force them to become more violent or latch on to a gang for survival purposes. I think you can see where this is going.
Click to expand...
I see your point, but when we're talking about crack, meth, heroine, etc., we're talking about drugs that are so addictive and so mind-altering and destructive, I don't see how it can be a good thing to endorse them as a society, not to mention letting advertisers make them out to be sexy and appealing.

Is there some middle ground, where they are technically legal, but stringently regulated? But, if the laws are too strict, won't there still be a black market to circumvent, and then we're right back where we started.

 
Legalize weed and legalize regulated prostitution.

Create a million jobs and billions in tax money.

No to all hard drugs.

 
I'm fine with legalizing but you

dont even have to go that far.

If someone is selling arrest them.

As far as the users don't treat them like criminals treat them as patients.

 
CowboysFromHell said:
I see your point, but when we're talking about crack, meth, heroine, etc., we're talking about drugs that are so addictive and so mind-altering and destructive, I don't see how it can be a good thing to endorse them as a society, not to mention letting advertisers make them out to be sexy and appealing.
Click to expand...
Nicotine is more addictive than the drugs you list. DXM is more mind altering than the drugs you list. Alcohol is more destructive than the drugs you list.

You've bought into the WoD propaganda that some drugs are inherently good and some are inherently bad. We don't endorse methadone as a society, but we recognize that providing it is better than the alternative.

You're wrong to look at whole-scale legalization as a panacea for all that ails us, but should instead realize that decriminalizing is the best of all options available.

 
Whatever is the best way to keep drugs out the kids' hands gets my vote.

Once people are old enough to know better, F it. They are gonna get it anyway.

But like I said, whatever scenario works that keeps kids off drugs works for me.

 
ghostguy123 said:
Whatever is the best way to keep drugs out the kids' hands gets my vote.

Once people are old enough to know better, F it. They are gonna get it anyway.

But like I said, whatever scenario works that keeps kids off drugs works for me.
Click to expand...
Be a loving and involved parent. Set a good example. Talk with your kids honestly about these issues.
 
ghostguy123 said:
Whatever is the best way to keep drugs out the kids' hands gets my vote.

Once people are old enough to know better, F it. They are gonna get it anyway.

But like I said, whatever scenario works that keeps kids off drugs works for me.
Click to expand...
You have to be 21 to buy marijuana so you'd also have to be at least 21 to buy hard drugs. Maybe even raise the age to 25. Sell weed and hard drugs in a store, but keep hard drugs expensive (i.e. 100% sales tax that goes for drug treatment).

 
Ilov80s said:
Legalize is the wrong term. Decriminalize.
Click to expand...
Yep. I assume we're talking about possession here. I don't think anyone who advocates ending the war on drugs thinks that large-scale drug dealers should be allowed to do what they want. But the mass incarceration of low-level drug dealers and drug users needs to end.

 
Ilov80s said:
ghostguy123 said:
Whatever is the best way to keep drugs out the kids' hands gets my vote.

Once people are old enough to know better, F it. They are gonna get it anyway.

But like I said, whatever scenario works that keeps kids off drugs works for me.
Click to expand...
Be a loving and involved parent. Set a good example. Talk with your kids honestly about these issues.
Click to expand...
Tell that to the kids I work with who have no parents, bounce around from foster home to foster home, live with abusive alcoholic parents, and pretty much don't care about their lives.

I am not worried about my own kids here.

WHile I agree your answer would work, it isnt remotely realistic

 
cstu said:
mquinnjr said:
Over-the-counter cocaine and heroin is a pretty awful idea, I'd have to think.
Click to expand...
It doesn't seem like cocaine and heroin addicts are having a difficult time finding it.
Click to expand...
I know and get that. But, generally speaking, people who are addicted to these two specifically (let's throw in meth to round it out) made a bad decision to start, and couldn't get out of the addiction cycle. That decision to start was presumably through other people already using those drugs that introduced the new users to it. Hopefully most people aren't associating with people with ready access as well as are active users, but that would seem to be to me how people are introduced and started, via other current users - with the ready access to follow the beginning of usage.

I see addiction being a whole lot more wide-spread if these drugs were to be made commercially available.

 
Marijuana should definitely be legal.

Unrefined coca leaves should be legal.

Anything that can be grown from the ground and raised and used without chemical process, including opium, should be legal...

The refining process should be illegalized. Cocaine... illegal. Heroin.. illegal... LSD.. illegal.... Designer drugs of any sort... illegal.... Morphine... by prescription only.

:2cents:

 
ghostguy123 said:
Ilov80s said:
ghostguy123 said:
Whatever is the best way to keep drugs out the kids' hands gets my vote.

Once people are old enough to know better, F it. They are gonna get it anyway.

But like I said, whatever scenario works that keeps kids off drugs works for me.
Click to expand...
Be a loving and involved parent. Set a good example. Talk with your kids honestly about these issues.
Click to expand...
Tell that to the kids I work with who have no parents, bounce around from foster home to foster home, live with abusive alcoholic parents, and pretty much don't care about their lives.

I am not worried about my own kids here.

WHile I agree your answer would work, it isnt remotely realistic
Click to expand...
Any of those kids have parents in prison for drug possession or selling drugs? As a teacher that works with hundred of kids from Detroit, you don't need to tell me how messed up the lives of these kids are. I am also don't see that we are preventing the kids from accessing drugs and that we are doing anything but creating folk heroes of drug sellers.
 
All drugs should be legal.

Any real crimes committed while under the influence of drugs or alcohol should receive an enhanced punishment.

 
mquinnjr said:
cstu said:
mquinnjr said:
Over-the-counter cocaine and heroin is a pretty awful idea, I'd have to think.
Click to expand...
It doesn't seem like cocaine and heroin addicts are having a difficult time finding it.
Click to expand...
I know and get that. But, generally speaking, people who are addicted to these two specifically (let's throw in meth to round it out) made a bad decision to start, and couldn't get out of the addiction cycle. That decision to start was presumably through other people already using those drugs that introduced the new users to it. Hopefully most people aren't associating with people with ready access as well as are active users, but that would seem to be to me how people are introduced and started, via other current users - with the ready access to follow the beginning of usage.

I see addiction being a whole lot more wide-spread if these drugs were to be made commercially available.
Click to expand...
Is anyone here promoting mass commercialization of all drugs? Is anyone thinking that it would be a good route?
 
Ilov80s said:
Any of those kids have parents in prison for drug possession or selling drugs? As a teacher that works with hundred of kids from Detroit, you don't need to tell me how messed up the lives of these kids are. I am also don't see that we are preventing the kids from accessing drugs and that we are doing anything but creating folk heroes of drug sellers.
Click to expand...
I guess I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to tell me then.

 
njherdfan said:
Ilov80s said:
Legalize is the wrong term. Decriminalize.
Click to expand...
Yep. I assume we're talking about possession here. I don't think anyone who advocates ending the war on drugs thinks that large-scale drug dealers should be allowed to do what they want. But the mass incarceration of low-level drug dealers and drug users needs to end.
Click to expand...
There would be no large-scale drug dealers if we legalized. That's one reason to support it.

I'm for complete legalization even of hard drugs.

 
Ilov80s said:
mquinnjr said:
cstu said:
mquinnjr said:
Over-the-counter cocaine and heroin is a pretty awful idea, I'd have to think.
Click to expand...
It doesn't seem like cocaine and heroin addicts are having a difficult time finding it.
Click to expand...
I know and get that. But, generally speaking, people who are addicted to these two specifically (let's throw in meth to round it out) made a bad decision to start, and couldn't get out of the addiction cycle. That decision to start was presumably through other people already using those drugs that introduced the new users to it. Hopefully most people aren't associating with people with ready access as well as are active users, but that would seem to be to me how people are introduced and started, via other current users - with the ready access to follow the beginning of usage.

I see addiction being a whole lot more wide-spread if these drugs were to be made commercially available.
Click to expand...
Is anyone here promoting mass commercialization of all drugs? Is anyone thinking that it would be a good route?
Click to expand...
Thought that was a discussion point being brought up in to OP. To which I am saying, I think it's a bad idea with regards to distribution of hard drugs in the manner that marijuana is now a controlled legal purchase in places like CO. I'm fine with that for weed, nothing else.

 
ghostguy123 said:
Whatever is the best way to keep drugs out the kids' hands gets my vote.

Once people are old enough to know better, F it. They are gonna get it anyway.

But like I said, whatever scenario works that keeps kids off drugs works for me.
Click to expand...
Death penalty for anyone who's done anything harder than aspirin? That would be the most effective.

Best way is a lot less clear.

 
Gawain said:
ghostguy123 said:
Whatever is the best way to keep drugs out the kids' hands gets my vote.

Once people are old enough to know better, F it. They are gonna get it anyway.

But like I said, whatever scenario works that keeps kids off drugs works for me.
Click to expand...
Death penalty for anyone who's done anything harder than aspirin? That would be the most effective.

Best way is a lot less clear.
Click to expand...
yep.

Maybe just maybe one day we will figure out a good way.

But until everyone has great loving parents, aint happenin I guess.

 
johnnycakes said:
Marijuana should definitely be legal.

Unrefined coca leaves should be legal.

Anything that can be grown from the ground and raised and used without chemical process, including opium, should be legal...

The refining process should be illegalized. Cocaine... illegal. Heroin.. illegal... LSD.. illegal.... Designer drugs of any sort... illegal.... Morphine... by prescription only.

:2cents:
Click to expand...
So are you for making oxys, percs, vicodin, etc illegal as well?

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
njherdfan said:
Ilov80s said:
Legalize is the wrong term. Decriminalize.
Click to expand...
Yep. I assume we're talking about possession here. I don't think anyone who advocates ending the war on drugs thinks that large-scale drug dealers should be allowed to do what they want. But the mass incarceration of low-level drug dealers and drug users needs to end.
Click to expand...
There would be no large-scale drug dealers if we legalized. That's one reason to support it.

I'm for complete legalization even of hard drugs.
Click to expand...
So am I.

There's more harm in keeping hard drugs underground than making them legal. With hard drugs legal they can be taxed, made as safe as possible, and the violence taken out of drug dealing.

 
mquinnjr said:
I see addiction being a whole lot more wide-spread if these drugs were to be made commercially available.
Click to expand...
US vs Netherlands (from 2009)

Life time Marijuana prevalence US 41.5% NL 25.7%

Last year Marijuan prevalence US 11.3% NL 7.0%

Lifetime Heroin prevalence US 1.5% NL 0.5%

Incarcerated/100,000 US 716 NL 82

Data is a bit stale but probably better evaluating prohibition vs decriminalization as some parts of the US have moved to latter since then.

 
cstu said:
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
njherdfan said:
Ilov80s said:
Legalize is the wrong term. Decriminalize.
Click to expand...
Yep. I assume we're talking about possession here. I don't think anyone who advocates ending the war on drugs thinks that large-scale drug dealers should be allowed to do what they want. But the mass incarceration of low-level drug dealers and drug users needs to end.
Click to expand...
There would be no large-scale drug dealers if we legalized. That's one reason to support it.

I'm for complete legalization even of hard drugs.
Click to expand...
So am I.

There's more harm in keeping hard drugs underground than making them legal. With hard drugs legal they can be taxed, made as safe as possible, and the violence taken out of drug dealing.
Click to expand...
Well, wouldn't you have to price it such that the current illegal/street dealers decide its not even worth it to compete and get out of the business? More you tax it, the better the chance the street guys can stay in as lower cost option, no? And if they stay in the game (selling untaxed) what do we do with them? In light of recent events, I don't think I need to say any more about how that can go bad :unsure:

 
Last edited by a moderator:
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
njherdfan said:
Ilov80s said:
Legalize is the wrong term. Decriminalize.
Click to expand...
Yep. I assume we're talking about possession here. I don't think anyone who advocates ending the war on drugs thinks that large-scale drug dealers should be allowed to do what they want. But the mass incarceration of low-level drug dealers and drug users needs to end.
Click to expand...
There would be no large-scale drug dealers if we legalized. That's one reason to support it.

I'm for complete legalization even of hard drugs.
Click to expand...
Interesting. I'm more of a fan of the Netherlands' policy of prosecuting large-scale dealers and producers, especially because cocaine and heroin aren't grown in the U.S., so we'll never have local growers like we do for marijuana. I don't think there's anything we can do that will break South American cartels' monopoly on large-scale drug distribution/production, so my main focus is on the lower-level distributors/users in the U.S.

 
A few things:

1. War on Drugs is not the same as drugs being legal or illegal. Drugs could be legalized or decriminalized or kept illegal. It is how what we do with users and sellers that we catch.

2. I have a grad school class on program evaluation. Evaluate the "war on drugs" as any other program gets evaluated:

- Has it met it's goal? It has not stopped drugs from being widely available in the country to adults, kids, etc.

- Is it cost effective? At $50 billion a year, I think we all agree that is a very significant amount of money that the United States can not afford to waste.

- Are there unintended consequences? Many and some might argue the unintended consequences are as bad as the original problem.

How can this program not be re-evaluated?

 
ghostguy123 said:
Ilov80s said:
Any of those kids have parents in prison for drug possession or selling drugs? As a teacher that works with hundred of kids from Detroit, you don't need to tell me how messed up the lives of these kids are. I am also don't see that we are preventing the kids from accessing drugs and that we are doing anything but creating folk heroes of drug sellers.
Click to expand...
I guess I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to tell me then.
Click to expand...
That making drugs illegal and throwing people that use them or sell them in jail/treating them like scum is not helping anything. It isn't making more loving, responsible parents or citizens.

 
Hilts said:
I just cannot support legalizing (or decriminalizing) all drugs. A lot of them, sure.

Just look at krokodil:

http://tv.naturalnews.com/v.asp?v=0e480dd5d4706fac2238ef6facd833af

http://www.narconon.org/drug-information/krokodil.html

Is that an extreme example of drug use? Sure. Because it's an extreme drug heroin addicts have turned to when they can't afford heroin.
Click to expand...
So, your point is that because heroin addicts turn to drugs worse than heroin when their supply dries up, we should ban heroin?

 
Gawain said:
Hilts said:
I just cannot support legalizing (or decriminalizing) all drugs. A lot of them, sure.

Just look at krokodil:

http://tv.naturalnews.com/v.asp?v=0e480dd5d4706fac2238ef6facd833af

http://www.narconon.org/drug-information/krokodil.html

Is that an extreme example of drug use? Sure. Because it's an extreme drug heroin addicts have turned to when they can't afford heroin.
Click to expand...
So, your point is that because heroin addicts turn to drugs worse than heroin when their supply dries up, we should ban heroin?
Click to expand...
No.

 
Gawain said:
CowboysFromHell said:
I see your point, but when we're talking about crack, meth, heroine, etc., we're talking about drugs that are so addictive and so mind-altering and destructive, I don't see how it can be a good thing to endorse them as a society, not to mention letting advertisers make them out to be sexy and appealing.
Click to expand...
Nicotine is more addictive than the drugs you list. DXM is more mind altering than the drugs you list. Alcohol is more destructive than the drugs you list.

You've bought into the WoD propaganda that some drugs are inherently good and some are inherently bad. We don't endorse methadone as a society, but we recognize that providing it is better than the alternative.

You're wrong to look at whole-scale legalization as a panacea for all that ails us, but should instead realize that decriminalizing is the best of all options available.
Click to expand...
Links?Even so, nicotine may be more addictive, but less mind altering. Alcohol, more destructive, but less addictive. I think it's the combination of addiction, effects, and destruction that cause us to rationally categorize alcohol and cigarettes into a softer category than heroine and crack.

 
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