mphtrilogy
Footballguy
I have hyde, i wonder if i should drop L Miller for Chubb at this point.. hmmm
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RB Nick Chubb, CLE (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter EBF
- Start date
A couple weeks ago he also said Duke Johnson will get more carries.
https://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2018/09/hue_jackson_wants_duke_johnson.html
Yeah right. And we all know what Hue says ends up being BS because he will ride Hyde until injured. That's the way Hue is. Look at Tyrod Taylor. He had Mayfield sitting on the bench knowing that his entire offense is elevated if Baker starts.
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mnmplayer
Footballguy
Yeah its sad. Technically he didn't put Mayfield in until Tyrod was knocked out of the game. He can take no credit for that victory. Dumb luck for Hue or they are still winless. He gives Chubb 2-3 carries whether he gets 1 yard or 100 yards. He should have feed him more with that lead and at least given him a chance in the 5th quarter vs a tired defense and a fresh Chubb with only 3 carries to his name. It's really sad, but like he says, "It's his show until it ain't." Let's hope ain't comes sooner rather than later. He can take Hyde and Duke with him to his next disaster.
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Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Brian Spoon @BrianSpoon
FollowFollow @BrianSpoon
Through 4 games:
FollowFollow @BrianSpoon
Through 4 games:
- Nick Chubb: 10 carries, 6 missed tackles forced, 3 runs of >15 yds
- Carlos Hyde: 83 carries, 7 missed tackles forced, 2 runs of >15 yds
I pretty much expected this. Those who followed the draft already knew Chubb has good metrics. But talent does not matter to Hue Jackson. He only stumbled onto the Baker mania being forced to play him after Tyrod sustained an injury. Hue Jackson reminds me of Bengals HC Marvin Lewis. Both I am not a fan of. Both who covet veterans over rookies no matter how much talent jumps off the page. Lewis did the same thing to Mixon last year.
Rhythmdoctor
Footballguy
Widbil83
Footballguy
This is the reaction right now I have as well, but I could easily see by Halloween looking back at this going “holy #### you didn’t drop stinky Lamar Miller for Nick Chubb!” If Hyde goes down Chubb is an instant monster every week.
I disagree. Of course you should. Miller is toast. I have also and plan to drop his useless ###
JPeso
Footballguy
The power to run through arm tackles of most mortal men. The elusively to make linebackers and DBs miss. Hyde’s been Hyde - relatively productive but nothing world beating. Going to be very difficult to not creep Chubb’s touches up. Hoping by mid year he’s a bye week flex, though luckily don’t need him to be anything this year. I’d certainly drop Miller for him even in redraft at the upside potential, to an earlier post. If Hyde goes down he’s a top 10 weekly start, exactly what dynasty owners will be looking at most weeks next year.
mphtrilogy
Footballguy
Thinking out loud here as a Hyde owner, I think Hyde is actually a very tenacious runner, plays hard I think he’s pretty underrated, but I do think Chubb is a lotto ticket, But I don’t think he’s startable until Hyde gets dinged pretty good. I was on that roller coaster with DHenry for two years behind DMurray... shallow bench league so not sure if LMiller will see my lineup past a bye week fill in right now, Watson isnt even looking at him on check downs... hmmm
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Biabreakable
Footballguy
I play in stupidly deep leagues so hard for me to fathom Chubb not being roster already.
If you had hyde no idea why you wouldn't also have Chubb.
I do have some teams with one and not the other. But that's because I got sniped.
If you had hyde no idea why you wouldn't also have Chubb.
I do have some teams with one and not the other. But that's because I got sniped.
Rhythmdoctor
Footballguy
I mean, don't you have another player you can drop besides a starting RB on a young and talented offense? Yeah, IF Chubb can get substantial carries he could be a league winner but Miller does have that opportunity now. I don't have Miller in any leagues, so he was not a targeted player of mine. I do have Chubb in almost every league but I still wouldn't drop Miller now for Chubb. Hyde is the starter and I don't think that changes soon. As a Chubb owner I HOPE I'm wrong of course but right now Miller has tons of opportunities so he's a no brainer.Widbil83 said:
ETA: the only way it makes sense is if you're stacked at RB and Miller is sitting bench weekly, then yes, I would consider dropping him for Chubb.
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dipandglide
Footballguy
Too agg, IMO. Go and pick up a Rod Smith or Malcom Brown for free. Chubb is in that category in redraft for me.
ninogaggi
Footballguy
Those guys you mentioned are in the rostered category for me ... Debating if I should use my Saphire points & come in over the top before it’s too late
Rhythmdoctor
Footballguy
Probably not aggressive enough. I say go like 40. We're at week 5 and not many other players gonna be worth high dollars. Can't take your bid dollars into next season.
4th&inches
Footballguy
Plan to drop Penny for Chubb myself.
Both backups, but Chubb seems to have the more breakout potential IMO
Both backups, but Chubb seems to have the more breakout potential IMO
mnmplayer
Footballguy
I would go further and say pre-injury Chubb was better than Barkley, not on par. Only *now* he is on par. If he gets to pre-injury form he is the best RB in class from a pure natural runner perspective. Chubb tore the PCL, LCL and MCL in his left knee and suffered cartilage damage too. If he had never gone down to injury I believe he would have been drafted before Barkley and more importantly broke Walker's records (named best college football player of the last 50 years and greatest of all time in ESPN coaches poll). Just my opinion. Come this October 10, he will be 3 years removed from his horrible injury. I don't think he was fully recovered the rest of his college career, but now ... its getting real close to 100%. No disrespect to Barkley who is a specimen on his own merits.
SameSongNDance
Footballguy
Chubb is simply a much more talented runner. And CLE's OL is playing at a higher level. This is a no-brainer IMO.
jtp1982
Footballguy
6th waiver spot cannot believe I got Chubb. I was shocked.
My league is RB obsessed. Chubb was drafted relatively early I think then dropped last week.
Hope they enjoyed holding onto those top waiver spots when they’ve gotta face Kamara and Chubb in the fantasy playoffs. This could be my year
My league is RB obsessed. Chubb was drafted relatively early I think then dropped last week.
Hope they enjoyed holding onto those top waiver spots when they’ve gotta face Kamara and Chubb in the fantasy playoffs. This could be my year
massraider
Footballguy
He can do everything Hyde can do. Hyde cannot do what Chubb can do.
Hyde is doing fine. But they have better than fine idling in the garage.
#FreeChubb
Calling it now: His ADP next year is no worse than Saquon's this year.
Hyde is doing fine. But they have better than fine idling in the garage.
#FreeChubb
Calling it now: His ADP next year is no worse than Saquon's this year.
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Soulfly3
Footballguy
TartanLion
Footballguy
Have a feeling he's going to bust out big time down the stretch. Hyde owner who unfortunately does not own Chubb. He's owned by a savvy league member that loves an RB stash and most likely wont give him up unless the price is good. If you are a Hyde owner what kind of range of players do you pay for him ?
YoUnG GuNz
Footballguy
Was actually just offered this from Hyde owner in a redraft ppr... Doug Baldwin for Chubb/Vance McD.
I'm gonna accept the deal but this is a guy that has loads of WR depth and Hyde/James White/Theo as his only RBs and also is starting Jesse James. Kind of a perfect trade partner for me. But yes... I think hes giving up too much.
I'm gonna accept the deal but this is a guy that has loads of WR depth and Hyde/James White/Theo as his only RBs and also is starting Jesse James. Kind of a perfect trade partner for me. But yes... I think hes giving up too much.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Right now, NIck Chubb can't block but Hyde can.
Not sure what either is capable of in the passing game because the Browns haven't used either in that capacity and the undisputed 3rd down back is Duke Johnson. Blocking is something Hyde has over Chubb at this point but Chubb hits the hole uber-quick and currently is making guys miss at a rate higher than Barkley.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Fusue Vue @lifesyourcup
Nick Chubb has averaged a missed tackled every 1.67 attempts.
For comparison, Saquon Barkley is at 5.00. (lower is better)
------------------------------------------------------------
Geoff Schwartz spelled out that RBs are paid to make guys miss in a breakdown of Saquon not hitting a hole that had double team blocking.
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https://mobile.twitter.com/geoffschwartz/status/1047169533188956160
Geoff Schwartz @geoffschwartz
Little inside football here. Saquon Barkley has a modest 5 yard gain but he misses the hole and the lineman with the excellent double team get the blame. The running game is a coordination between the uglies and the back. We block w/angles expecting the ball to hit in an area
Geoff Schwartz @geoffschwartz
I’ve seen this reply a few times w/regards to the defenders. Sometimes backs have to make guys miss. They get paid for that. Lol... if Barkley takes that handout and pours into that A gap, ideally 55 is blocked by the C and/or double team. 53 is working away. He can win vs him
Quote Tweet Kory E Lesney@lezzney04
Replying to @geoffschwartz
If he hits it up the middle he has 2 free defender who could make the tackle by hitting it more outside he limits that play to one free linebacker. Looks like a smart read to me...
Joe ThomasVerified account @joethomas73 11h11 hours ago
Joe Thomas Retweeted Geoff Schwartz
6 man box with 6 blockers, all that space...it’s a shame that was only a 5 yd run. OLs dream of getting a 6/6 or 5/5 box, RB should hit his head on the goalpost.
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Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
No, no, noooo he did not only miss one block on a punt.
He also has blown pass-pro assignments that lead to sacks with Tyrod and then had his 'OLE' blocked punt.
THAT is when his snaps got limited and he should have been riding the pine for that poor effort.
The team can't afford to use him in pass-pro now that Baker is the QB.
No matter what you think or want (remember how 'some' people were crying for the Browns to take Saquon?) the team can't afford to have a rookie RB who can't pass-pro blow blocks and get Mayfield killed. That isn't an option.
Chubb runs great but he has to learn pass-pro like most NFL rookie RBs.
I haven't seen him in pass protection, but the scouting reports on him said he could block. Not as good as Michel, but good for a rookie.
Also, it's not like Hyde is a stud pass blocker. He led the league last year with 13 pressures given up.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
The scouting reports also said he was slow.
Doesn't matter what scouting reports say once a rookie steps onto an NFL field.
That kid has to prove he can pass protect before he is trusted with protecting the franchise.
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
With his strength and quick feet I am confident pass pro is something he has the ability to improve on if needed.
I don't recall any reputable scouting report saying he was slow. Scouting reports do matter if they are accurate and I don't think we can say they should all be thrown out. If the scouting reports say he can block, I'm inclined to believe them.
You conveniently ignored the second point in my post: Hyde is nothing special when it comes to blocking. You are acting like one guy is bad and the other is great. That's just not true.
Also, you are acting like Baker Mayfield is Tom Brady. What is this nonsense about protecting him like a porcelain doll? Baker is young and mobile. He is not old and fragile. The Browns need all the help they can get and they are not going to win by putting games on the back of a rookie QB. They need the run game to keep defenses honest. If we were talking about Brady or Rodgers, I'd wholeheartedly agree with you, but we're talking about a mobile rookie QB.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Your interpretation of what is or isn't reputable isn't a standard I choose to agree with. I know what I see.
Browns Film Room: RB Nick Chubb’s weaknesses areas of Chubb’s game that are weaknesses ... is not a great blocker ... he looks sort of lost on whom he should block. His slow recognition ... Chubb is not in a position to help in any way Sony Michel is a projected higher draft pick than Nick Chubb ...Kiper also thinks Michel will be a higher pick than Chubb, and he explained why. “Late in the year, it was Sony Michel who was the key guy,” Kiper said. “The pass blocking of Michel is better than Chubb. ...
Sorry I don't have to highlight everything you say. I know Hyde isn't great at pass pro and he's blown assignments but he's better than Chubb.
Mayfield is the franchise of the Cleveland Browns and he has to be protected and that isn't up for debate.
Chubb is not going to used in pass protection until he shows he can be trusted to protect Baker Mayfield.
Have you even heard of the Cleveland Browns and how long they've been looking for a franchise QB?
Do you think that only Tom Brady is deserving of pass protection?
Everything about the Browns season has been about getting things ready for Mayfield to take over. That is why Tyrod was the starter, because we had an UDFA rookie starting at LT and we needed to make sure he got up to speed before Mayfield was ever going to see the field. The injury to Taylor is why the plan got ramped up but that rookie LT is playing well, actually great.
The coaches aren't going to give Chubb any assignments where he would have to protect Mayfield and that is why he wasn't being used.
They are going to use him more now but the defense is going to read it and key on him because they know it won't be a pass. He's got to improve his pass-pro even though he's a better runner than Hyde because even though Hyde isn't a great in pass-pro he is better than Chubb and the season for the Browns is all about Baker Mayfield's development.
voiceofunreason
Footballguy
Slow? Lol, where did you get that from? Nobody thought that except some idiots on FBG after watching a couple of preseason carries.
Please go look at some blocking grades on pro football focus and then tell me blocking is crucial. I have and Imo it's way overanalyzed. Most rbs are terrible and they play every week.
The truth is Hue is terrified of being fired, as he should be, so he's playing veterans to try and win every game he can right now. Even than it's getting obvious that a time share is coming, probably this week.
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No, you don't have to highlight everything I say, but it's just lazy analysis and disingenuous to retort with something that barely skims the surface of what the other person said. You basically said, now that Chubb has played 4.6% of his team's snaps in 4 games, we can throw out scouting reports because some scouting report somewhere called him slow (while also ignoring that Hyde isn't a standout in pass pro). Obviously you need to reevaluate the scouts you read, but also consider not being so quick to throw out observations from larger sample sizes than what we've seen of him as a pro. 4.6% of 4 games is a laughably small sample size. If you are going to rely on your own eyeball test, at least wait for a larger sample.
Thank you for that link, but just like any scouting report that called him slow can be ignored, one that says his quickness and fluidity is a weakness can also be ignored. If we're suddenly into small sample sizes, he's forcing missed tackles at an insane rate so far in the NFL. As for Kiper saying Michel is a better pass blocker than Chubb, I believe I already mentioned that Michel was the best pass blocker in the class, so being worse than Michel describes ever other rookie, too, and gives no frame of reference.
I obviously don't think Brady is the only QB that needs pass protection, but it's not binary like you are implying. I'd say pass blocking is less important for mobile QBs while pass blocking is more important for old QBs, wouldn't you? As for Mayfield being the franchise... that's the case for just about every NFL team. Even marginal QBs like Bortles or Eli would represent a huge setback for their team should they be injured for the season. But on a sliding scale, I'd say a young, mobile QB is at one end of that scale in terms of "need for a pass blocking RB" while "old, immobile QB" is at the other end of that scale. Do you disagree?
So the need for pass blocking isn't binary, nor are the talents we're talking about. Chubb and Hyde are not at opposite ends of the pass blocking scale.
Also, you don't know that LT was the reason Tyrod was the starter. It's Hue Jackson. We'll never understand the moves he makes and they're rarely logical. However, we both know it is extremely common for rookie QBs to sit for all or part of their first season. That's because they are rookies and it takes time to learn the game. It's almost certainly not because every team is worried about pass blocking for their fragile new QB.
The Browns may be focusing on Mayfield's development, but they're actually a good team. They could be 3-1 if they had a decent kicker. It's not impossible for them to make the playoffs this season. Chubb gives them a better shot at it than Hyde.
It's all about scheme and assignments. I recall reading that Sproles, who played a ton of 3rd down for the Saints, was only asked to block on 5% of his snaps that season. Teams and dink and dunk don't need it as much. Teams that use their QB's mobility to roll out for deep passes don't need it as much. Teams with pocket QBs that have more air yards per attempt will use their RBs in protection more. Example. I don't know enough about the Browns' offense to say what their needs are, but from what I've read there isn't some glaring delta between Hyde's pass blocking and Chubb's. Hyde is currently better, but it isn't night and day.
Donnybrook
Footballguy
I regret not taking Chubb and taking Penny with my 1.03 rookie pick. I bought into the PFF hype.
Alluro
Footballguy
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
You say that I cannot discount scouting reports and then say ignore these scouting reports in the second paragraph.
He's terrible in pass protection. He doesn't stay with his blocks even though he's got the size and strength, footwork, athleticism so TO ME it sure as hell looks like a lack of effort or sheer laziness. What do you see with his pass protection? If you say that only 5% of snaps isn't enough then its not enough to say he should get more carries now isn''t it. BS, its enough to see and make an observation.
Slide scale pass protection? Are you an expert on the number or on which hits can harm a rookie QB?
I helped someone build an extension on his house, he had a house warming party and I noticed he left out a support in a tight corner of the outside steps that would rarely get stepped on. Everyone was having a great time and I pointed that out and got derisive laughs from the circle of guys drinking beers together when he said: "How many times will anyone step on that one spot where it would give way?"
I said: 'ONCE!'
His face got white and he said. "He's right."
He left the party, got the support and we put it right there. He looked at me with a smile and shook his head proudly and we all went back to partying.
It only takes one hit and Chubb came with many reports saying he is a poor pass protector and that is what he's shown so-far with the Browns.
If you don't agree that Tyrod was starting because the LT, and many other things that I didn't bother to mention because this is a Nick Chubb thread was the primary reason then its no skin off my nose but if you think for one crazy second that getting that LT up to speed wasn't a major reason why Mayfield wasn't starting then you're nuts.
Chubb wasn't starting because he was clueless in pass protection and he isn't going to be the third down pass catching RB because he ain't beating out Duke Johnson who knows pass-pro and can catch and even run to keep the D off balance when called upon. Chubb earned more carries but he's not going to take over till he learns pass pro.
He's terrible in pass protection. He doesn't stay with his blocks even though he's got the size and strength, footwork, athleticism so TO ME it sure as hell looks like a lack of effort or sheer laziness. What do you see with his pass protection? If you say that only 5% of snaps isn't enough then its not enough to say he should get more carries now isn''t it. BS, its enough to see and make an observation.
Slide scale pass protection? Are you an expert on the number or on which hits can harm a rookie QB?
I helped someone build an extension on his house, he had a house warming party and I noticed he left out a support in a tight corner of the outside steps that would rarely get stepped on. Everyone was having a great time and I pointed that out and got derisive laughs from the circle of guys drinking beers together when he said: "How many times will anyone step on that one spot where it would give way?"
I said: 'ONCE!'
His face got white and he said. "He's right."
He left the party, got the support and we put it right there. He looked at me with a smile and shook his head proudly and we all went back to partying.
It only takes one hit and Chubb came with many reports saying he is a poor pass protector and that is what he's shown so-far with the Browns.
If you don't agree that Tyrod was starting because the LT, and many other things that I didn't bother to mention because this is a Nick Chubb thread was the primary reason then its no skin off my nose but if you think for one crazy second that getting that LT up to speed wasn't a major reason why Mayfield wasn't starting then you're nuts.
Chubb wasn't starting because he was clueless in pass protection and he isn't going to be the third down pass catching RB because he ain't beating out Duke Johnson who knows pass-pro and can catch and even run to keep the D off balance when called upon. Chubb earned more carries but he's not going to take over till he learns pass pro.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
You lose.
I'm a Browns fan and my interest is sharing information even if it creates a silence in the Chubb drinking party.
I love Chubb but he's not going to start till he learns pass-pro.
You basically said throw out all scouting reports because one of them was bad enough to call him slow (and then you linked some rando scouting report to help your other point!). I was saying throw out the obvious crap scouting reports, but use the ones that actually utilized his large sample of college snaps to scout his pass protection. See the difference? You seem to have a problem where you can only view things black or white. Everything is binary to you. You don't have to throw all ALL scouting reports just because you saw one bad one. The internet is great, but it also means there's a low barrier to entry. There's going to be a lot of crap out there. It's our job to weed out the worthwhile info from the people who don't know what they're talking about. Anyone calling him slow or questioning his quickness can be thrown out.No, he's not terrible in pass protection. That's simply a false statement that you back up with nothing but your own eyeball test based on a very small sample size.
Yes, I'm saying there's a sliding scale for the importance of RB pass protection. I think it was a simple point that I explained thoroughly but you seemed to miss the point anyway. I won't type it again, but I'll copy and paste. Read it this time: I obviously don't think Brady is the only QB that needs pass protection, but it's not binary like you are implying. I'd say pass blocking is less important for mobile QBs while pass blocking is more important for old QBs, wouldn't you? As for Mayfield being the franchise... that's the case for just about every NFL team. Even marginal QBs like Bortles or Eli would represent a huge setback for their team should they be injured for the season. But on a sliding scale, I'd say a young, mobile QB is at one end of that scale in terms of "need for a pass blocking RB" while "old, immobile QB" is at the other end of that scale. Do you disagree?
And holy crap... that story... smh. That is not a good analogy at all. In fact, it's a very bad analogy. Guess what? QBs take hits all the time whether the RB pass protects or not. We're obviously playing a percentage game here. Hyde led the league in pressures allowed last year with 13. I don't think Chubb is going to do much worse. We're not even talking about hits. Just pressures. Baker is not fragile. If he ends up taking 15 pressures instead of 13, the odds of that leading to a career ending injury are negligible. The odds of winning the game if Chubb ran the ball on third down instead of Hyde? Not negligible.
And no, I'm not nuts for thinking a rookie QB didn't start week 1 due to left tackle concerns. This is a zany theory you and you alone have concocted. But I'll remind you once again, it is common practice in the NFL for rookie QBs to sit and learn! Did Rosen not start because of LT concerns? Lamar Jackson? Josh Allen? Did Darnold start because his LT was good? I don't think Andrew Luck has ever had a good left tackle. Maybe he should still be sitting.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
I asked you one question about what you saw of his pass protection and you didn't bother to answer, you side stepped it by saying: "...he's not terrible in pass protection. "
Then said: "Hyde led the league in pressures allowed last year with 13. I don't think Chubb is going to do much worse."
He's not terrible and he's not going to be much worse, OK.
Mayfield wasn't starting for number of reasons but the top reason was the LT position and you can try to lecture me about the team that you know nothing about however I know more than you do and I don't have to be given credit. I'll take credit for knowing more than you about the Cleveland Browns because I do. You don't. The primary reason why he was going to have to wait to start even before they brought in Des Harrison was concern over him being able to read and call proper pass protections.
This is from June long before the three iterations of left tackle attempts before they settled on Desmond Harrison at left tackle and I'm not about to dig and to find the mentions by Hue of establishing the supporting cast before he was ready to put in Baker where he specifically mentioned getting the left tackle positioned settled but you stick with the lack of knowledge of the situation and keep spinning away from what you saw because you saw nothing from Chubb in terms of pass-protection.
Why an eager Baker Mayfield may have to wait his turn
Then said: "Hyde led the league in pressures allowed last year with 13. I don't think Chubb is going to do much worse."
He's not terrible and he's not going to be much worse, OK.
Mayfield wasn't starting for number of reasons but the top reason was the LT position and you can try to lecture me about the team that you know nothing about however I know more than you do and I don't have to be given credit. I'll take credit for knowing more than you about the Cleveland Browns because I do. You don't. The primary reason why he was going to have to wait to start even before they brought in Des Harrison was concern over him being able to read and call proper pass protections.
This is from June long before the three iterations of left tackle attempts before they settled on Desmond Harrison at left tackle and I'm not about to dig and to find the mentions by Hue of establishing the supporting cast before he was ready to put in Baker where he specifically mentioned getting the left tackle positioned settled but you stick with the lack of knowledge of the situation and keep spinning away from what you saw because you saw nothing from Chubb in terms of pass-protection.
Why an eager Baker Mayfield may have to wait his turn
mnmplayer
Footballguy
I think Hue Jackson is just dumb to be honest. If Tyrod were still healthy he would be out there running from D linemen. Its probably not some smart decision by Hue keeping him off the field because even if he couldn't pass block with his talent running you would give him at least 10 carries and just run when he comes in. That hasn't even been tried. Kid deserved at least one handoff in the 5th quarter last game after what he shown.
