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You guys in any Masters leagues? They appear to be doing the same thing Phenoms was (minus the theft so far).

masters payouts are terrible

Terrible meaning they don't/won't/take a long time to pay?

Or terrible in % kept/commish fee/only top 2 paid?

Just curious, am desperately looking for something like Mike's site to join……..

I posted my opinions earlier in this thread as a fantasy football site owner and developer. My intention is not to advertise my site but since you are looking for an alternative check my signature line. There are playoff leagues available.

fuzzy - Why don't you use LeagueSafe? It is free.

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I debated for a day whether I should post since I am in the industry and am not a regular here but I have read every post, theory and idea how to possibly recoup what is rightfully the members money.

Mike is reading this thread and must be amused that his "divide and conquer plan" is working so splendidly. 25 percent of the "winners" from all the prize suckers who paid in are uniting against the

Young Chuck moved to Montana and bought a horse from a farmer for $100.00. The farmer agreed to deliver the horse the next day. The next Day he drove up and said, "Sorry, Son, but I have some bad news

Anyone else in here looking to lose a lot of money? I know people are mad but if you didn't win any money you really don't have much skin in the game. I'm hoping that the people who are looking to get chargbacks are people who have won. Because if someone that didn't win any money try to get the money the lost back and it costs me I'm not going to be happy. Doing that is just as fraudulent as what is going on.

I definitely lost more (hypothetically) since I'm in two championships and two consolation matchups next week. I'm also the points leader by a mile in one of my leagues. But at this point, all I want or hope for is my original buy-in. All the talk about what you would have won or think you are entitled to will only send you into a tailspin. Gotta let it go.

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Did not see the baseball gambling bit, but I still think its quite an assumption to say he has a gambling problem or that he gambled our money away.

I think it's safe to say I make more than Mike does. And I shudder to think I could have gambling sessions where I'm up 2050 or down 1470 over any run. I'd have to admit I have a gambling problem.

...but you wouldn't, if you did, and that's usually the problem.

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My winnings as of now are $2350 with max winnings of $4600. The thought of me busting my ### and not getting paid and someone that put in half the time getting their money back...that's just as bad as the current cituation.

You're not going to see any of that money. I wouldn't blame anyone for trying to recoup whatever they can.

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Anyone else in here looking to lose a lot of money? I know people are mad but if you didn't win any money you really don't have much skin in the game. I'm hoping that the people who are looking to get chargbacks are people who have won. Because if someone that didn't win any money try to get the money the lost back and it costs me I'm not going to be happy. Doing that is just as fraudulent as what is going on.

Considering the people who were going to "win" are not getting any money either, then no, it is not fraudulent for people who aren't even in the playoffs to request chargebacks. That's like saying it's ok for someone to make a bet with you without having the money to pay, and when you found out he didn't have the money to pay, you're fraudulent for not paying him.

Also, keep in mind that a lot of us played Phenoms for his dynasty/keeper leagues, these required a deposit for next year as well. So even if I had lost all of the leagues I was in (in the finals in 5/12 leagues, but for the sake of argument), I would still need at least half of my money back to break even.

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Integrity dies on both ends....

I'm not in any of those leagues - but you seem to be the one that cares solely about your own self interest at this point.

If some one feels scammed by Mike they certainly shouldn't be hesitant about being reimbursed - why further line his pockets? Trust me when I tell you they aren't taking the money out of your pocket - you're being a little naïve if you think that you are still in line to get paid here.

Edited by Dr. Octopus
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Guest General Tso

Did not see the baseball gambling bit, but I still think its quite an assumption to say he has a gambling problem or that he gambled our money away.

He most definitely gambled it away. It's just a question of whether it was on baseball games and poker, or on a spurious software product. I never met the guy but he sounds like a risk taker through and through. In short - the last guy I'd want holding on to a large sum of money.
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Hmmmm

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=470712

Since we are discussing going to jail, gambling, etc...
Started by Unlucky, Jun 01 2009 11:06 PM

Posted 01 June 2009 - 11:06 PM

Let's say you put an update on your Facebook page, Twitter, or posted here about winning/losing a sports bet or playing poker. How safe are you from law enforcement using that against you? I would assume that anything you post can't be the initial trigger to get you in trouble, but I could see it piling on as evidence if you got in trouble for some form of illegal gambling.

Unless you were running the sports book or card room, I assume you're pretty safe. Maybe, maybe not?
Edited by ArbyMelt
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Did not see the baseball gambling bit, but I still think its quite an assumption to say he has a gambling problem or that he gambled our money away.

He most definitely gambled it away. It's just a question of whether it was on baseball games and poker, or on a spurious software product. I never met the guy but he sounds like a risk taker through and through. In short - the last guy I'd want holding on to a large sum of money.

Well I didn't group hiring developers for fantasy football software in with 'gambling'. Also all of this "proof" that he has a gambling problem is 5 years old. I don't know about you, but I don't do most of the things I did 5 years ago, so that's still speculative at best to me. I think it's more likely that he made poor investments than made some sports bets or lost it in a poker game, that's all I'm saying.

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I don't think people who didn't win money should get money. I would think that even if I didn't win anything. It's not about what I'm getting. It's not about getting everything you can. That has already been done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4A6Bu96ALOw

I wonder how many in the future will try this in legit leagues. What if owners get there charge backs in this league when they shouldn't get any money back and then try to get their money back on other non fraudulent leagues where they didn't win? Tying to look big picture.

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Here are links if you want to file complaints:

https://complaint.ic3.gov/ (Internet Crime Complaint Center)

http://attorneygener.../complaint-form (Utah Attorney General)

I also called the local police where Mike lives in Murray, Utah (801-264-2673.

More action we get......... put this guy away. Little hope of getting any money back.

Like many others, I am in four finals.

Good "buy" Santa..............

anyway

MERRY CHRISTMAS to all

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I don't think people who didn't win money should get money. I would think that even if I didn't win anything. It's not about what I'm getting. It's not about getting everything you can. That has already been done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4A6Bu96ALOw

I wonder how many in the future will try this in legit leagues. What if owners get there charge backs in this league when they shouldn't get any money back and then try to get their money back on other non fraudulent leagues where they didn't win? Tying to look big picture.

I wonder if my neighbor who's asking for his lawn mower that I borrowed back, will someday steal my snow blower from my garage.

Edited by Dr. Octopus
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Here are links if you want to file complaints:

https://complaint.ic3.gov/ (Internet Crime Complaint Center)

http://attorneygener.../complaint-form (Utah Attorney General)

I also called the local police where Mike lives in Murray, Utah (801-264-2673.

More action we get......... put this guy away. Little hope of getting any money back.

Like many others, I am in four finals.

Good "buy" Santa..............

anyway

MERRY CHRISTMAS to all

Just curious what the local police response was? What would be expected of them?

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Really, what are the chances that gambling is NOT part of the problem?

Could be drugs - I know I'd need a lot of cocaine to run that many online drafts in the summer.

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I don't think people who didn't win money should get money.

Agreed. That's just as fraudulent as what Mike did.

I can't imagine too many banks are going to refund this though, once they look at the type of transaction it was. Never know, though...

Edited by Grigs Allmoon
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Anyone else in here looking to lose a lot of money? I know people are mad but if you didn't win any money you really don't have much skin in the game. I'm hoping that the people who are looking to get chargbacks are people who have won. Because if someone that didn't win any money try to get the money the lost back and it costs me I'm not going to be happy. Doing that is just as fraudulent as what is going on.

The people who deserve the money are not going to get it so everyone should try to get their payment back. People joined a league with the understanding that their money would go to the league's winner. Since that will not happen the league is void and people are entitled to their refund.

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I don't think people who didn't win money should get money.

Agreed. That's just as fraudulent as what Mike did.

I can't imagine too many banks are going to refund this though, once they look at the type of transaction it was. Never know, though...

Yeah, if any money shows up, it'll be a land rush, with people trying to get entry money back.

I wouldn't worry about it too much, I doubt this'll be a problem anyone has to deal with.

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I don't think people who didn't win money should get money. I would think that even if I didn't win anything. It's not about what I'm getting. It's not about getting everything you can. That has already been done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4A6Bu96ALOw

I wonder how many in the future will try this in legit leagues. What if owners get there charge backs in this league when they shouldn't get any money back and then try to get their money back on other non fraudulent leagues where they didn't win? Tying to look big picture.

I wonder if my neighbor who's asking for his lawn mower that I borrowed back, will someday steal my snow blower from my garage.

Right. But at what if he came over and wanted his mower back when he already had it in his garage?

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For those wondering if what Mike did was illegal or just unethical/immoral:

Embezzlement is the act of dishonestly withholding assets for the purpose ofconversion (theft) of such assets by one or more individuals to whom such assets have been entrusted, to be held and/or used for other purposes

Wire Fraud is any fraudulent scheme to intentionally deprive another of property or honest services via mail or wire communication

What Mike did is the very definition of embezzlement and wire fraud, which are felonies in the state of Utah, punishable by up 20 years in prison and full restitution of funds..

To put this further in perspective a Utah woman was just indicted by a grand jury on Embezzlement and wire fraud charges in June of this year. She "used" 1.3 million dollars of client "protected" funds. So there is recent precedence.. If investigations yield he spent ANY of that money gambling or to purchase any sort of personal item, that is felony wire fraud, every time is one count.

At the very least the class action will help the criminal case against mike… In the end, justice might be the only thing we get, and for most of us, that is O.K.

Not sure if I should even bother commenting on this whole debacle as I guess some of my previous posts must of ruffled a mods feathers and were deleted. I just don't want people to get a false sense of hope for justice ever being served on Mike. It won't happen. He will claim that his business model failed and file for bankruptcy protection.

The reality is most likely that he spent countless thousands of dollars on some vice or vices or an unrealistic lifestyle and that was the downfall of the business. He will file for bankruptcy protection and the secured creditors such as banks and Uncle Sam will be first in line to grab any assets that he has left.

Most likely the few assets that he has won't even pay the secured creditors. He won't go to jail as they won't be able to prove fraud.

I have a judgement for 75K in a bankrupcy case against a local businessman in my own town.I will never see a dime from it. He was a crook, plain and simple. The guy doesn't dare show his face in public as there are tons of people that he screwed who would

most likely beat him silly if they saw him. It sucks but that is the system we have. Once again sorry to those who were impacted.

What now?

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I don't think people who didn't win money should get money.

Agreed. That's just as fraudulent as what Mike did.

I can't imagine too many banks are going to refund this though, once they look at the type of transaction it was. Never know, though...

I agree with the exception of dynasty league startups. Anyone in the first year of a dynasty league should get their money back.

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I don't think people who didn't win money should get money.

Agreed. That's just as fraudulent as what Mike did.

I can't imagine too many banks are going to refund this though, once they look at the type of transaction it was. Never know, though...

I agree with the exception of dynasty league startups. Anyone in the first year of a dynasty league should get their money back.

I agree.

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Anyone else in here looking to lose a lot of money? I know people are mad but if you didn't win any money you really don't have much skin in the game. I'm hoping that the people who are looking to get chargbacks are people who have won. Because if someone that didn't win any money try to get the money the lost back and it costs me I'm not going to be happy. Doing that is just as fraudulent as what is going on.

The people who deserve the money are not going to get it so everyone should try to get their payment back. People joined a league with the understanding that their money would go to the league's winner. Since that will not happen the league is void and people are entitled to their refund.

Agreed. And I believe we're operating in real "fantasy" at this point, but say it came down to legal settlement at some point... an Arbitrator would view the Terms & Conditions that all players signed up for, and rule accordingly. Now during the crucial play-off period, you have teams that have mailed it in based on Mike's notification. Is it going to be easier for an arbitrator to review every league to determine exactly "who would have won what" if they had all kept playing... or simply refund everyone their entry fee?

Really I think guys can hope for the best, but expect nothing. If you get something? Hey, like finding money under the mattress.

Edited by Dizzy
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Read and respected Unlucky for over a decade. I can certainly understand why folks who are owed loot are upset and it certainly sounds like Unlucky made some poor decisions, but the guy has always been nothing but good people on FBG.

I agree with Hooper - I'll wait to hear more details but I'm not ready to throw Unlucky overboard until we know more. :shrug:

tommy, based on his OWN ADMISSION he took prize money and used it for something else, and now he can't pay it back. Ultimately what else is there to know about this?

The circumstances? If he was taking out 50k markers at the Bellagio and doing lines off of Samantha Saint's ### at Spearmint, I'll be first in line to issue a curb stomp. If his daughter has cancer and he spent 50k of the prize money for treatments, I won't be quite as angry.

:lmao: I like where your heart's at GB but come on, the writing's on the wall here. The size of this is large. Gambling bartender (and whatever else he might be into) all of a sudden sinks the ship. Nobody's salvaging a dime here, although I hope I'm wrong. When does stuff like this turn out?

I understand wanting to give him the benefit of the doubt, but he's kind of lost that chance with how it was handled, no? Total surprise. Look at the timing. And there is no way he didn't see it coming. Hello??? That speaks volumes, imo. He waited to drop the bomb at an opportune time. Terrible sign. Um, that, and all the money that's gone.

Yeah, I fully expect to be wrong on this one. Just very, very surprising - I wouldn't have thought Unlucky was capable of this. :shrug:

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I think the question here is intent.

Theft by False Pretenses
A form of theft whereby the possession and title to money or other valuable property is voluntarily transferred from the victim to the suspect who has made a misrepresentation (a lie). The suspect never had any intention of holding up their end of the bargain. Before you realize their dishonesty they are long gone with your money.

My personal opinion is that it was not his intent to not hold up his end of the bargain. He had spent years trying to build a successful business. Yes, the website costs spiraling out of control seems like a cover story but I do not believe he willfully intended for this to happen. He had a profitable business in a growing industry, common sense would say he at least tried to keep it going after running into problems. I think we got some truth and some non-truth in that statement on the website and hopefully we will get more information at some point. hopefully the league winners will at least get their initial investment back. If someone works years for something and then loses everything, reputation included, they are not going to be in a great place. Personally, I don't believe digging for and posting personal information is going to help anything except maybe to push someone already in a hole over the edge. Concentrate on getting what you can back from your CC or whatever other funding method you used. Also, complaining to state and/or federal authorities about this is only going to raise scrutiny on the industry as a whole. Based on something I saw on HBO's Real Sports a few months back, there is a decent chance that the feds could swoop in and make gambling like this illegal, just like they did with the poker websites. The carve out federal law was intended to be for local fantasy leagues between friends, mom and pop leagues is you will. They never envisioned these daily sites or people who were wagering hundreds of thousands of dollars on fantasy sports. Hounding state attorneys and prosecutors is only going to hasten the end of fantasy wagering as we know it in my opinion. Just my 2 cents. Good luck to all and hope you get your money.

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There is no excuse for this. Depositors money should have been kept in an escrow account separate from his operating expenses and should never have been used to pay his software development costs.

This. As someone who is co-owner of a money league site (fantasybowl.com), we keep prize pool and user balance money in a separate account from operating expenses. This is the exact reason we do this, to prevent what happened to Phenoms from happening to us.

I'm not about to kick a competitor when they're down, but that's an obvious mistake on their part. The #1 purpose of a site like this is to pay out winners. Everything else follows after that.

Edited by vitaflo
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I paid via paypal through BOA set to my checking..

I spoke with them yesterday and was basically told they would submit a report but the chances of them doing anything are extremely small...

Has anyone had real success with paypal?

What do you tell them?!

BoA is always great with disputes from me or the wife.

The one time I had a dispute with Paypal/Ebay, it was a major PITA, and they basically did nothing for me. BoA, on the other hand, ended up coming through again on that one.

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I paid via paypal through BOA set to my checking..

I spoke with them yesterday and was basically told they would submit a report but the chances of them doing anything are extremely small...

Has anyone had real success with paypal?

What do you tell them?!

BoA is always great with disputes from me or the wife.

The one time I had a dispute with Paypal/Ebay, it was a major PITA, and they basically did nothing for me. BoA, on the other hand, ended up coming through again on that one.

How much time had past between the disputed charge and when you contacted BoA though?

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I don't think people who didn't win money should get money.

Agreed. That's just as fraudulent as what Mike did.

I can't imagine too many banks are going to refund this though, once they look at the type of transaction it was. Never know, though...

Banks maybe not, but if you used a credit card and pay absolutely you should get a refund. I feel very confident my CC companies will side in my favor. The CC company doesn't lose the money. PayPal will. The CC company wants you as a customer.

Edited by Chili Cheese Burrito
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You guys in any Masters leagues? They appear to be doing the same thing Phenoms was (minus the theft so far).

I am in 70 leagues over there. They sent me a snap shot of their bank account and told me their accounting procedures when I brought this subject up with them.

Edited by FatUncleJerryBuss
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You guys in any Masters leagues? They appear to be doing the same thing Phenoms was (minus the theft so far).

masters payouts are terrible

Terrible meaning they don't/won't/take a long time to pay?

Or terrible in % kept/commish fee/only top 2 paid?

Just curious, am desperately looking for something like Mike's site to join……..

So soon after getting scammed? I want to join a new league eventually too, but the wound is still fresh to be thinking about jumping to a new site. My trust affinity is close to zero.

I should clarify, any other site I join I am going to insist on full transparency and third party holding of funds…

That said, as I have stated earlier, I lost thousands to Mike this year, but what I am most upset about is losing the competition and camaraderie, Deep rosters, and simplicity...

Not sure if I will ever find it, but I will always be looking

Yes, they do exist. Check my sig.

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You guys in any Masters leagues? They appear to be doing the same thing Phenoms was (minus the theft so far).

masters payouts are terrible

Terrible meaning they don't/won't/take a long time to pay?

Or terrible in % kept/commish fee/only top 2 paid?

Just curious, am desperately looking for something like Mike's site to join……..

Masters take 20-25% depending on the league plus fees. Only pay top two. But in light of what has been happening I would rather them be able to make a living and charge higher fees than steal my money.

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I paid via paypal through BOA set to my checking..

I spoke with them yesterday and was basically told they would submit a report but the chances of them doing anything are extremely small...

Has anyone had real success with paypal?

What do you tell them?!

BoA is always great with disputes from me or the wife.

The one time I had a dispute with Paypal/Ebay, it was a major PITA, and they basically did nothing for me. BoA, on the other hand, ended up coming through again on that one.

How much time had past between the disputed charge and when you contacted BoA though?

Not 90 days. But the PP/EB/BOA dispute was over concert tickets, which is normally difficult regardless of time between dispute and purchase.

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You guys in any Masters leagues? They appear to be doing the same thing Phenoms was (minus the theft so far).

I am in 70 leagues over there. They sent me a snap shot of their bank account and told me their accounting procedures when I brought this subject up with them.

Here is a snapshot of Mike's Wells Fargo account: http://postimg.org/image/ryr3m9cv1/

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Probably not my place since I know nothing about this Mike guy or Phenoms, but I've read almost all of this thread and here's what I think is a plausible scenario.

From the sounds of it, it appears this Mike is a good guy, but sounds like he gambles also. I'm guessing he bet on sports, hit a losing streak, figured he'd dip into the Phenoms money 'cause he thought he'd win it back. Except he kept losing and started chasing that lost money and upping his bets. Then next thing you know the money is gone or mostly gone. I'm guessing some coke was mixed in there as well.

Pure speculation entirely, but I know once someone starts spiraling downhill, it's real, real hard to stop it until they hit bottom.

Anyway, just from reading this thread, that's where my thought process took me.

Edited by T J
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I should clarify, any other site I join I am going to insist on full transparency and third party holding of funds…

That said, as I have stated earlier, I lost thousands to Mike this year, but what I am most upset about is losing the competition and camaraderie, Deep rosters, and simplicity...

Not sure if I will ever find it, but I will always be looking

Yes, they do exist. Check my sig.

Fuzzy, do you use an escrow service?

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You guys in any Masters leagues? They appear to be doing the same thing Phenoms was (minus the theft so far).

I am in 70 leagues over there. They sent me a snap shot of their bank account and told me their accounting procedures when I brought this subject up with them.

Here is a snapshot of Mike's Wells Fargo account: http://postimg.org/image/ryr3m9cv1/

Their was not fake like that one. It was done so I could toggle between the account balances.

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Probably not my place since I know nothing about this Mike guy or Phenoms, but I've read almost all of this thread and here's what I think is a plausible scenario.

From the sounds of it, it appears this Mike is a good guy, but sounds like he gambles also. I'm guessing he bet on sports, hit a losing streak, figured he'd dip into the Phenoms money 'cause he thought he'd win it back. Except he kept losing and started chasing that lost money and upping his bets. Then next thing you know the money is gone or mostly gone. I'm guessing some coke was mixed in there as well.

Pure speculation entirely, but I know once someone starts spiraling downhill, it's real, real hard to stop it until they hit bottom.

Anyway, just from reading this thread, that's where my thought process took me.

A year long losing streak of betting baseball, where he facilitated the lie 13 months in advance? He did mention to us last year he was planning on building custom software and intended it to be ready for the 2014 season, and this summer he disclosed that it hit some snags and wouldn't be ready for the start of the season. I mean, what you're saying is still possible, but I think there is at least some truth to his story.

Edited by robcards
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You guys in any Masters leagues? They appear to be doing the same thing Phenoms was (minus the theft so far).

I am in 70 leagues over there. They sent me a snap shot of their bank account and told me their accounting procedures when I brought this subject up with them.

Here is a snapshot of Mike's Wells Fargo account: http://postimg.org/image/ryr3m9cv1/

Their was not fake like that one. It was done so I could toggle between the account balances.

How do you toggle in a "snapshot"? Elaborate on how this was done because it makes no sense right now.

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Probably not my place since I know nothing about this Mike guy or Phenoms, but I've read almost all of this thread and here's what I think is a plausible scenario.

From the sounds of it, it appears this Mike is a good guy, but sounds like he gambles also. I'm guessing he bet on sports, hit a losing streak, figured he'd dip into the Phenoms money 'cause he thought he'd win it back. Except he kept losing and started chasing that lost money and upping his bets. Then next thing you know the money is gone or mostly gone. I'm guessing some coke was mixed in there as well.

Pure speculation entirely, but I know once someone starts spiraling downhill, it's real, real hard to stop it until they hit bottom.

Anyway, just from reading this thread, that's where my thought process took me.

A year long losing streak of betting baseball, where he facilitated the lie 13 months in advance? He did mention to us last year he was planning on building custom software and intended it to be ready for the 2014 season, and this summer he disclosed that it hit some snags and wouldn't be ready for the start of the season. I mean, what you're saying is still possible, but I think there is at least some truth to his story.

Absolutely could be some truth. But I also think it's possible he saw what was happening back then and was kind of setting the stage in case he didn't win the money back. The "truth" part being that there were cost over runs so he used that as his go-to story to soften things if he was unable to win his losses back and if he did win them back, no one would ever know.

Just a hypothesis.

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Probably not my place since I know nothing about this Mike guy or Phenoms, but I've read almost all of this thread and here's what I think is a plausible scenario.

From the sounds of it, it appears this Mike is a good guy, but sounds like he gambles also. I'm guessing he bet on sports, hit a losing streak, figured he'd dip into the Phenoms money 'cause he thought he'd win it back. Except he kept losing and started chasing that lost money and upping his bets. Then next thing you know the money is gone or mostly gone. I'm guessing some coke was mixed in there as well.

Pure speculation entirely, but I know once someone starts spiraling downhill, it's real, real hard to stop it until they hit bottom.

Anyway, just from reading this thread, that's where my thought process took me.

A year long losing streak of betting baseball, where he facilitated the lie 13 months in advance? He did mention to us last year he was planning on building custom software and intended it to be ready for the 2014 season, and this summer he disclosed that it hit some snags and wouldn't be ready for the start of the season. I mean, what you're saying is still possible, but I think there is at least some truth to his story.

Writing software is indeed expensive, especially for something like fantasy football. And I'm not sure people realize how much money it actually costs to run a fantasy site. And if your site is somehow dependent on another site (like MyFantasyLeague), well they're the weak link and can bring you down in ways that are out of your control. So obviously anyone who runs a site like this (as my company does) wants to have everything in house, under their own control.

But you can't dip into player funds to do so. You either build it yourself or you get a biz loan to fund it. You don't do it on the backs of your users.

Anyway, if people want an alternative to Phenoms see my sig. We've been running prize leagues for 16 years, and yes we keep player funds and operating funds in separate accounts, for obvious reasons.

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