Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.
Phenoms going under (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter JohnW1970
- Start date
fatness
Footballguy
You still don't understand what happened.
Nobody in the league was going to win any money.
The standings and results in Week 12 don't matter. Or Week 14. Or Week 5 or 6 or any other week. Nobody was getting any money. Your thinking is all caught up in "but there were people poised to win".
There was nothing for anyone to win.
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
From a tax standpoint, ASSUMING Mike owns 100% of the LLC, I would guess it's highly likely that this LLC is a "disregarded entity" for tax purposes. That is to say that from a tax standpoint, the LLC doesn't exist. Any of the LLC's earnings and losses are reported directly on Mike's Schedule C. There is no salary, per se....from a tax standpoint, he is free to add or withdraw funds from his LLC as he sees fit. The income in the LLC is taxed to him when the LLC earns it, not when he withdraws the money. There are other options (corporate treatment), but it's unlikely that he would've gone that route.
Conceptually, the player funds are either refundable deposits (not income) or revenue (income, whether or not Mike withdraws the money, it doesn't matter). We all know that they should be considered refundable deposits - it would make no sense to call it income to Mike as he should have no ability to "enjoy the use of the funds". But if he withdrew the deposits and used them....hard to claim that it's not income of some sort for tax purposes. He could very well have a future tax problem that he hasn't considered.
This is not official tax advice and should not be construed as such
.
cstu
Footballguy
What about all the deposits for next year he received? When I was looking into Phenoms earlier this year he required a full deposit of next year's dues.
Mr.Pack
Footballguy
Buck Bradcanon
Footballguy
I think you misunderstood something...
First, what little anger I have is directed at Mike, he betrayed everyone who played at his site and entrusted him with admin'ing their leagues. In reality, after 4 or 5 years there, could I have been more vigilant?
What disappoints me is people who are using the situation to try and recoup funds that they would have lost anyway, laughing and bragging about it, and rationalizing it with absurd examples. Ethically, if you played the league for 14 weeks and finished out of the money in your league, there's really no reasonable rationale to expect to be reimbursed for your losses.
At some point in this whole thread somebody started telling guys they should do a chargeback with their bank or CC company about getting refunds. At that point, I questioned whether it was appropriate or ethical for people who did not qualify to win their leagues to be requesting refund for money that they would have lost anyway, and not send it to the league winners.
I stand by my original premise, that the only people who should be doing chargebacks are those who have dynasty/keeper league deposits for 2015, who have unused funds on deposit, or who have paid for leagues that never went off. Those are the people who truly never received a service for which they paid. If guys want to do chargebacks for leagues that went off and they did not finish in the money, they should be paying any chargeback funds received to the prizewinners in their leagues. Anything less is dishonest.
This is not a situation of someone who took money and absconded before setting up a league and guys never received a league or draft or commish service. Phenoms set up the 2014 leagues, commished them, coordinated drafts, guys played them, had waiver wires and trades if applicable. Anyone who says that they finished out of the money in their league because of this situation, and therefore deserves a refund of their 2014 dues, is simply being disingenuous.
For all who say I don't understand what is happening, I understand perfectly. I've got potentially $5k in league "prize winnings" (using the term very loosely at this point) and $1k in 2015 league deposits on the line here. But, I'm not going to sell my soul, like some of the posters here, just to get an extra $50 or $100 on a league that I would have lost anyway. It's just not worth it.
Last edited by a moderator:
CalBear
Footballguy
There's no "selling your soul" going on. There's an attempt to get money back from a fraudulent scheme. Bernie Madoff's earlier investors weren't more entitled to paybacks than later investors, just because Madoff had told them that they had made money. The money wasn't there, it was a lie. The fantasy leagues were fraudulent, Phenoms violated the contractual terms for everyone involved, and the fact that someone drafted Adrian Peterson and Ray Rice at the beginning of the season doesn't make them less entitled to recompense.
JimmyJabroni
Footballguy
Yep. Agreed. Ultimately, there was no prize money being played for. The guy took payments and spent the money without knowing how he'd pay it back. Everyone was robbed regardless of their fantasy record. If any of you guys can get money back you should.
Last edited by a moderator:
JimmyJabroni
Footballguy
CalBear
Footballguy
Let's say I set up the Phenoms Scratcher Extremely Lucky Ticket Contest. There's no money behind the contest; I'm taking the cash straight to the video poker machine.
I convince three guys to buy tickets. One of them puts it in his pocket for later. One of them scratches it and it says "You Lose." The third one scratches it and it says "You win $1,000,000!", at which point it's discovered that the contest is a fraud.
How can the third guy be any more deserving of compensation than the first two? There wasn't a contest for him to win $1M in, so he didn't win $1M.
I convince three guys to buy tickets. One of them puts it in his pocket for later. One of them scratches it and it says "You Lose." The third one scratches it and it says "You win $1,000,000!", at which point it's discovered that the contest is a fraud.
How can the third guy be any more deserving of compensation than the first two? There wasn't a contest for him to win $1M in, so he didn't win $1M.
BassNBrew
Footballguy
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
It is and Harvey Keitel is involved in a small time scheme like you describe in your last paragraph.
duckduckgoose
Footballguy
There are two reasons Mike waited until week 14 to make this announcement.
#1. It was just past the 90 days from his last football drafts in early/mid September voiding most attempts charge-back.
#2. To divide us, all of us Phenom players, into the "winners" and "losers"
You want to know why cons "get away" with this kinda crap? It's because we're bickering over who is and who isn't getting charge-backs, who's owed what and when etc. And of course the victim-blamers who need to feel that we somehow deserved this or that they're too smart for it to ever happen to them or it might shatter their world-view.
I'm not going to lie, I had an awful year this year. Between being too busy with work and bad pre-draft valuations I was already looking at making at most $800 of the $2300 I put in this year. Now thanks to charge-backs I *might* be getting $450 back, which is more than the $0 I would see if I hadn't at least tried. What is some of you want? Some sort of promise that in the zero percent chance we're all made whole on our deposits that we pool the winnings back to everyone who made the semi-finals (as any results past week 15 is moot)? Fine! I was perfectly resigned to losing what I was already going to this year. What happened to everyone "winners" or "losers" (and other fantasy sports enthusiasts who are affected throughout the industry) sucks. We should be focused on making sure these things don't happen in the future and that Mike is held responsible for his behavior.
#1. It was just past the 90 days from his last football drafts in early/mid September voiding most attempts charge-back.
#2. To divide us, all of us Phenom players, into the "winners" and "losers"
You want to know why cons "get away" with this kinda crap? It's because we're bickering over who is and who isn't getting charge-backs, who's owed what and when etc. And of course the victim-blamers who need to feel that we somehow deserved this or that they're too smart for it to ever happen to them or it might shatter their world-view.
I'm not going to lie, I had an awful year this year. Between being too busy with work and bad pre-draft valuations I was already looking at making at most $800 of the $2300 I put in this year. Now thanks to charge-backs I *might* be getting $450 back, which is more than the $0 I would see if I hadn't at least tried. What is some of you want? Some sort of promise that in the zero percent chance we're all made whole on our deposits that we pool the winnings back to everyone who made the semi-finals (as any results past week 15 is moot)? Fine! I was perfectly resigned to losing what I was already going to this year. What happened to everyone "winners" or "losers" (and other fantasy sports enthusiasts who are affected throughout the industry) sucks. We should be focused on making sure these things don't happen in the future and that Mike is held responsible for his behavior.
kupcho1
Footballguy
They spent over $600K and counting to reinvent a wheel that worked perfectly fine?
Who signed off on that business plan?
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
The bickering over ethics of who's owed what for whatever assumed prize categories exposes the ugly side of humanity. We are all of us up a creek. All of us lost, and some in here insist they are entitled to more if and when settlements come due. As if they are an elite class of loser. Times like this make me wish that the lawyers gobble up all the money and leave all of us with nothing. Would at least teach some of us a lesson in humility. Merry Christmas.
Futz
Footballguy
I started the chargeback process, however my situation was a little more complicated. They did ask questions of the nature of the services provided and the who, what, when and how of it all.
To be honest, It felt a bit like an interrogation to get me to admit it was fantasy football related. I basically told them that this company was to provide "a sports entertainment service in which they coordinate, supervise and manage the funds of our group". He asked what was the reasoning for the transactions to be disputed now after the 118 day period had elapsed and I said because the service was an ongoing process that needed to be completed in it's entirety for the transactions to be valid in the first place.
There was a lot more to the conversation but I'll spare you the details. I feel like I need a shower though. They said to gather up emails and as much evidence as I could and they would send the paperwork to initiate the investigation.
This isn't going to end well but it doesn't require much effort on my end so I feel it's worth trying.
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
At least you have a punchers chance Futz, of recovering your chargeback. Your CC company will investigate and go to bat for you against mighty PayPal who likes to dismiss disputes as if they were all ridiculous. So you aren't going it alone. You need to gather al your payment details, all your email from Mike where he's admitted to defrauding you. And that screenshot from Phenoms where he stated that all funds would be safe in a Wells Fargo account. Scan it all and be prepared to fax it when the time comes. Don't go down w/o a fight. Good luck!
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
I'm surprised to see I am the only one of the semi-finalists in my league who hasn't yet set their lineup. Out of league comradarie, I will look to add Randle tonight (Murray owner). It all seems so surreal.
I had this same conversation with someone today and a good point was raised...by waiting until the playoffs, Mike may have realized that he fulfilled his obligations to 60 to 80% of his players who are out of the money in the leagues, thereby reducing his claimant pool by that.
With that bolded statement above, you showed an intelligence and ethos far above average. I applaud you, sir.
Here's the epiphany I had last night...maybe this will help others.
I told my wife about this, gave her the $'s, and her response? She asked me why I was so upset. She said, you could blow $ on hookers, drugs, booze, poker, casinos, and a thousand other vices that tear a family apart. Instead, I have to set my waivers and lineups on Wednesdays, check my inactives on Sunday AM, maybe answer a few trade emails a week, text some trash talk, and watch the games. My kids can even participate...and I make a few bucks doing it, a good part of which we use for our year end charitable donations. Her only rule ever was...don't lose more than we can afford. By God's grace, I never have.
I look at it as kind of like my semiannual hometown poker games at my friend's house. I go there with $40, play some hands, drink some sodas, and catch up with some old friends. If I lose $10, $20, $30, $40, well, I would have spent that $ at a restaurant or on a golf course to have the camaraderie anyway. If I win, well, that's nice. I've been blessed to play this game for 25 years, won some, lost some. I've made some friends (and a few adversaries) along the way, and got involved in some dynasty leagues that will survive this fiasco. Once I looked at the positive side, after 3 sleepless nights being upset about this phenoms BS, last night I slept soundly.
It pains me to see people who don't recognize what you said above, and try to use this to get money that they never would have had anyway, and engaging in what one of my attorney client/friends calls "irrational rationalization" to justify it in their minds.
So, everyone go home tonight, hug your family, count your blessings, and have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Life goes on and the combine is only a couple months away.
Last edited by a moderator:
Yup...I hear ya. Well, I guess the money will come and go, but we'll all have a story to tell about being ripped off by this moron. It's funny, was just re-reading all the emails I had back and forth with Mike when asking about his leagues. He took my bad stories I had about Antsports and promised it was different at Phenoms. He even wanted to know how he could get others I played with there to join. I feel so glad I didn't recommend this site to any of my buddies I played with there. I'd feel so much worse now!
BassNBrew
Footballguy
I'm interested...do any of those emails happen to say anything about how he intended it to be different, such as holding funds in escrow or separate accounts from his operating accounts? I recall him saying something to me along those lines when I started but that was 4 years ago and I don't have the emails anymore. Or maybe my recall is faulty.
Last edited by a moderator:
pitt4life21
Footballguy
No, I never even went there with him. All I shared was that Antsports was going downhill fast. It took me until April to get my winnings (which in retrospect, I'd take in a heartbeat now this year) and that he never responded to emails or phone calls. He told me he had heard a lot of the same things from others payed played thereand wanted to know "how can I get them?". He even then had the audacity to ask if he thought Steve would be interested in being bought out. I obviously never knew Steve at that level, so I said I have no idea. This was in July when he knew he was in financial trouble, inquiring about buying out Antsports. Incredible
The people who didn't place deserve their money because the whole league was a sham. There was never money to be paid! Since the winners are only due 80-90% of the money put into the league does Phenoms get to keep the 10-20% to distribute? Unfortunately despite all the time and effort put in by people, myself included, its as if the leagues never happened. How do you pay the points leaders? I stand to gain more by paying winners but everyone should just get their buy ins back, unfortunately neither is going to happen. And by waiting until people had been eliminated to announce that no one was getting paid, he was banking on the fact that winners don't get all the money back so he could potentially pay more people, and piss fewer off, just another scumbag move.
Thanks for ruining my season Mike!
Exactly. Just because we thought we were all competeing for a prize pool there was nothing to play for, ever. We all agreed to play for a certain prize pool that never existed, so the terms of the league are broken. If any one of us in any league thought we were only going to see 40% of our winnings if we won none of us would ever have joined. So everyone who "lost" should be out 100% even though winners are only going to be 40% paid at the most?
There is no league winner by the way, he cancelled everything before the playoffs. So now there are 4-5 winners in each league? That's not what any of us played for.
How do we know Mike didn't have teams in every league trying to win some of his own money back so he wouldn't have to pay it out?
By the way I stand to make more if winners are paid, but there is no money to pay anyone so it doesn't matter. If MC or Visa pays you back god bless because they sure don't care if you finished in 12th place or went 14-0, it's not like one is going to ruin it for the other.
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
I was an OG Ants player and played there for many years. A very good friend of mine is the one who got me started on Ants and played there til the end. I texted him when this thread first came up and asked if he had moved on to Phenoms after Ants collapsed. His response: "No, never heard of it, but that ####er Steve still owes me $30."
AZhardballz
Footballguy
Was just wondering if we were going to be refunded by FBG's. Instead of playing for 100's of dollars, it turns out I wasn't playing for anything and I never would have paid for FBG's if I knew I was playing for nothing. Besides their projections were the worst I've seen in years...(Cmon McManus every week at number 1?) Plus I never would have joined Phenoms if it weren't for the tons of recommendations from FBG's/forum members......ok ok ok relax...partially kidding. But seriously, my last year of paying for a FBG subscription.
Chili Cheese Burrito
Footballguy
What reason did Chase give you? Do you mind elaborating? Card type? Visa / Mastercard? Purchase date? What you said when you called? Thank you for any additional information.
CalBear
Footballguy
OK, should the guy who bought a loser scratcher give his $1 to the guy who bought the "winner" scratcher? Should the last guy in Madoff's scheme give his settlement to the first guy?
If there's no prize pool, there's no contest, and everyone was defrauded.
MissionCoach
Footballguy
I also paid through my Chase Visa card. Curious what you said to Chase regarding the dispute, and what reasoning they gave to deny the dispute.
I played in 3 leagues (2-$100 and 1-$50) I'm in the finals in all 3 leagues. Obviously I did not lose as much as a lot of other players, but I could have potentially won $1,116.
Totally bummed out. Two years in a row screwed. Last year Antsports, this year Phenoms.
So far, I have spoken at length with BOA fraud dept. (gave me the finger) and then Paypal (took it a step further telling me to go f- myself while giving me the finger)
I think it is awesome that some on here have been successful fighting the charges though! If anyone has any advice those of us with BOA, it would be greatly appreciated...
They just told me over and over again, there is nothing they can do (even going as far as saying by paying through my checking via paypal I was basically giving mike my account information and if he wanted he could drain my account, because technically I gave him access)
It was just heartbreaking being told as long as crooks delay for 90 days, it does not matter, they get to keep the money.
Paypal was the WORST though.. They literally told me I was an idiot not to report him within 45 days, and then when I was speaking with a manager and cited the 180 day dispute rule they had on their website, they said that only applies to transactions done after November 17th, anything before then, they said AND THIS IS A DIRECT QUOTE "He can take your money and burn it in front of you and there is not a thing you can do about it"
Such a joke all the way around...
I think it is awesome that some on here have been successful fighting the charges though! If anyone has any advice those of us with BOA, it would be greatly appreciated...
They just told me over and over again, there is nothing they can do (even going as far as saying by paying through my checking via paypal I was basically giving mike my account information and if he wanted he could drain my account, because technically I gave him access)
It was just heartbreaking being told as long as crooks delay for 90 days, it does not matter, they get to keep the money.
Paypal was the WORST though.. They literally told me I was an idiot not to report him within 45 days, and then when I was speaking with a manager and cited the 180 day dispute rule they had on their website, they said that only applies to transactions done after November 17th, anything before then, they said AND THIS IS A DIRECT QUOTE "He can take your money and burn it in front of you and there is not a thing you can do about it"
Such a joke all the way around...
BassNBrew
Footballguy
Apple Jack
Footballguy
pitt4life21
Footballguy
I told them that he didn't fulfill his duty in paying the money out. They said since I participated in the league they have no reason to fight it. It was a Visa card and I bought it on Aug 28th
Are you saying the bank is saying he can go into our checking accounts and drain them any time because we paid him through PayPal? Or did they mean just drain any money left in a PayPal account? Or both?
I was lucky enough to get out after last season, so I didn't get screwed in the current debacle, but now wondering if this is over yet or not. It's like the compromised accounts hacked into at Target and Home Depot, we were told you have to remain vigilant and monitor your bank accounts in case they get compromised months or years down the road.
If Mike already has criminal complaints against him regarding Phenoms, would that qualify for protecting you at least to be reimbursed if he hacks your checking account through PayPal? Or is removing linking your account to PayPal effective protection?
Chili Cheese Burrito
Footballguy
He cant drain your account, you authorized one transaction with Phenoms. There is no billing agreement/authorizations open with PayPal. He cannot press a magic button and drain your account. Seriously, wtf do they train these csr reps for.
ILUVBEER99
Footballguy
yeah, either that post was BS or he talked to a moron.
People you send money to in Paypal have zero information about your banking information. They don't even know what bank you use.
The guy who posted that is the one trying to get a class action lawsuit going, he is probably trying to discourage people from charging back by posting BS to scare them.
Last edited by a moderator:
You know, a guy with "Mike" in his name is probably a target in this thread. <_<
Paypal has to be initiated by the Paypal account owner, a vendor cannot initiate a charge to your account unless he has your Paypal password. The vendor only knows your email, not your bank or CC info. I'm assuming you didn't give any of those to phenoms.
Good grief, these customer service reps...
Cue: Tag Team singing "Whoomp there it is".
What I've been saying all day but getting flamed for it, called an idiot and told I don't know nothin'.
Last edited by a moderator:
BRONG
FOR A LIMITED TIME ONLY
Depends...did the 2 scratchers participate in a contest determined by the results of an independent sport and not by the issuer for 14+ weeks? If not, it's irrelevant to this discussion.OK, should the guy who bought a loser scratcher give his $1 to the guy who bought the "winner" scratcher? Should the last guy in Madoff's scheme give his settlement to the first guy?
If there's no prize pool, there's no contest, and everyone was defrauded.
Madoff is also irrelevant to this discussion...despite the belief of some in this thread that phenoms was a Ponzi scheme.
So by your last sentence, my $5 entry fee fantasy football league that I play with my family and friends on yahoo where the toilet bowl loser has to wash the champion's car in a bikini top and Daisy Duke shorts isn't a contest? There's no prize pool but I tell you what, it's a hell of a competition.
Last edited by a moderator:
I know this is minuscule in the grand scheme, but if I filed a claim with paypal would it matter that I used a PayPal balance rather than paying directly from my credit card? And in case you didn't see, this made usa today. http://thebiglead.com/2014/12/17/phenoms-fantasy-football-site-unable-to-meet-full-prize-obligations-plans-to-declare-bankruptcy/?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzRss&utm_campaign=usatodaycomsports-topstories
Neil Beaufort Zod
Footballguy
I'm sorry people lost money or won't get the money they deserve. But PLEASE learn a lesson from this. Stop throwing big money into high-stakes contests unless you're prepared to not get paid. If you have a lot of money and it's not a big deal, cool. But if the dollar amount matters, stop throwing it away on the Internet.
No matter how much you researched it or trusted it, there's no due diligence you can do to guarantee a big payout from people you don't know. No league, no daily game, no nothing. And from the way these threads always go, there's basically nothing you can do about it.
I know these seem like good guys at the time and you pay with the best knowledge you have at the time. But my point is you'll NEVER have enough knowledge to protect yourself from this. This is always a possibility. If that's part of your gambling fun, great. But if this is a big problem, please don't make the same mistake twice. You're not getting your money back.
No matter how much you researched it or trusted it, there's no due diligence you can do to guarantee a big payout from people you don't know. No league, no daily game, no nothing. And from the way these threads always go, there's basically nothing you can do about it.
I know these seem like good guys at the time and you pay with the best knowledge you have at the time. But my point is you'll NEVER have enough knowledge to protect yourself from this. This is always a possibility. If that's part of your gambling fun, great. But if this is a big problem, please don't make the same mistake twice. You're not getting your money back.
